For the same reason 3D didn't take off, its the glasses......
I actually kind of enjoy the kinesthetic activity of snapping the phone into the headset, pulling the strap over my head, taking a moment to let my eyes adjust to my new vision.
It's not so much the activity of getting into VR, it's the nausea associated with your post-VR experience that needs to be fixed. I think this is still a big thing. I've played EVE using Oculus a few times and it's a great experience, until you come back to reality. VR still isn't "there". So hopefully it'll be good by that 2020 date, or it could be like 3D for sure. Same goes for AR. Hololens is fun for about 15 minutes and then becomes very annoying. To make it something useful, there are plenty of improvements that need to be made. Maybe 2020 is a good date though.
Oh, you're not alone. Disclaimer: I've never played Eve Valkyrie, but I can see the wisdom in starting with gentler experiences like Land's End or even Eve Gunjack.
2020 seems relatively optimistic. On the other hand, 4 years is a long time. Who knows? I'd also like to point out that there has been a continual trend here to... buck current trends?
So often on this board I would see:
2005 - 2010: 'Twitch (action) combat has no place in a MMO(RPG)' - many MMOs have twitch or action combat today (Vendetta Online, Dragon Nest, Tera, Realm of the Mad God)
2011 - 2016: 'MMOs will never work on mobile' - several great MMOs run on mobile today and are cross-platform (Vendetta Online, Albion Online)
2016+?: 'VR will never work for a MMO' - ... ?
naysaying is often the order of the day: it doesn't change reality, though. Things change, and it's great to be ahead of that change.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
If there is one, this crowd will hate it. A renaissance is never more of the same. It's a forward advance, evolution, and new ideas. It most certainly wouldn't be a rehash of the past.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
MMORPGs started losing their luster when gold/item sellers became the thing. I didn't play these games to become the top guy in a week. I played to enjoy the world, enjoy the camaraderie of playing with people I did not know, everyone trying to do their best.
Now, you get asshats who have spent $100 so they have the most uber-elite gear the day after a game opens. Game developers cannot really spend the time combating this, or when they do they default to tactics that hurt all players rather than come close to stopping the sellers.
The other big thing that hurt the industry was the need to put a game out no matter its state rather than ensure you had a good product, or what I call the "Vanguard Syndrome". Vanguard should have been the next WoW. The world felt more real, the mechanics of many game features was new, and it had (what we thought would be a good thing) Brad McQuaid at the helm using Microsoft's money.
Then lots of drama happened and the game was not only released unfinished, it was released using a build that had already been patched a couple times. And SOE had no plans to reintroduce much of what had been patched in. So the game sucked. And nobody really bought it. And it died a slow death.
I think the next big mmo will be a game where PVP and PVE will be on separate servers like the old days and class nerfs will only happen on PVP servers. PVP including duels will only happen on PVP servers.
If there is one, this crowd will hate it. A renaissance is never more of the same. It's a forward advance, evolution, and new ideas. It most certainly wouldn't be a rehash of the past.
Entertainment is all about rehash these days. Not to mention this genre is basically abandoned all previous ideas because of market share of one game. I think certainly sandbox has unfulfilled potential. .
I don't think we will, todays gamers could never handle the mmorpg's in 99 - 05. In fact, todays gamers can't even really handle an mmorpg at all. Nobody appreciates putting time and effort into a game. It's well explained here:
In other words, those games provided years of straight gameplay. Games released now and in the long foreseen future will only provide a few weeks (at best) and anything more is unacceptable.
There is good reason for that. I was one of those hard core gamers and ignored most things in real life in order to put more time into the game. Most sane people realize this is not a healthy thing and won't invest that much time into it. Since that is the majority of people out there it's unlikely to see any games that require large quantities of time and patience to play. It is still possible to have innovation though. If MMOs ever went away from cash shops for some reason and found a way to reduce the repetitiveness I might consider giving them a try again. It's possible this may happen one day. There was a time when the cash shop was unthinkable to the hardcore market that was basically everyone playing. Things change from time to time.
I haven't tried VR yet, but I often wonder how different it will really be. Is it just a gimmick that will wear off after a bit of using it? It offers a bit more freedom and immersion, but if the game is still repetitive and boring it won't matter much in the end. There needs to be some creativity to make the game play more interesting IMO.
VR is not my thing will probably throw up multiple times to make it remotely enjoyable. Looking forward to some other way for games to improve meanwhile playing single player games. Have no clue how games might improve but hoping they still make some PvE games for people like me that do not enjoy PvP.
For the same reason 3D didn't take off, its the glasses......
I actually kind of enjoy the kinesthetic activity of snapping the phone into the headset, pulling the strap over my head, taking a moment to let my eyes adjust to my new vision.
It's not so much the activity of getting into VR, it's the nausea associated with your post-VR experience that needs to be fixed. I think this is still a big thing. I've played EVE using Oculus a few times and it's a great experience, until you come back to reality. VR still isn't "there". So hopefully it'll be good by that 2020 date, or it could be like 3D for sure. Same goes for AR. Hololens is fun for about 15 minutes and then becomes very annoying. To make it something useful, there are plenty of improvements that need to be made. Maybe 2020 is a good date though.
Oh, you're not alone. Disclaimer: I've never played Eve Valkyrie, but I can see the wisdom in starting with gentler experiences like Land's End or even Eve Gunjack.
2020 seems relatively optimistic. On the other hand, 4 years is a long time. Who knows? I'd also like to point out that there has been a continual trend here to... buck current trends?
So often on this board I would see:
2005 - 2010: 'Twitch (action) combat has no place in a MMO(RPG)' - many MMOs have twitch or action combat today (Vendetta Online, Dragon Nest, Tera, Realm of the Mad God)
2011 - 2016: 'MMOs will never work on mobile' - several great MMOs run on mobile today and are cross-platform (Vendetta Online, Albion Online)
2016+?: 'VR will never work for a MMO' - ... ?
naysaying is often the order of the day: it doesn't change reality, though. Things change, and it's great to be ahead of that change.
Just need to point out most of your examples are, shall we say under performing, and not rousing successes nor even MMOs I and others enjoy playing.
The most successful MMORPGs historically and at present remain tab target, played on large screen platforms with the alternates you put forth as largely... Meh.
VR will carve out it's place, but will remain solidly niche.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMO's need to be brought back to its roots before there can ever be a "renaissance." Some bold developer is going to have to step up and say, "No! You will not be capped in a week. We will not hand you epics for successfully logging in. We will not point you to anything or let you steamroll it all by yourself for "convenience". Youre going to be dropped into a virtual world and youre going to have to engage it and think for yourself to make any progress in it."
I can see Cell Phone VR taking off. The investment for a headset can be really cheap. You don't have to have a lot of wires hanging around you or a lot of space to use it, and a lot of 360 videos and games are easily available on platforms like YouTube. Not as immersive as a high end VR unit but more versatile, convenient, and cheaper.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
If this could happen I would expect it to happen after all the deadwood games are dead and gone. Sometime after a major shakeup in which a majority of game companies disappear or get bought up.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
For the same reason 3D didn't take off, its the glasses......
I actually kind of enjoy the kinesthetic activity of snapping the phone into the headset, pulling the strap over my head, taking a moment to let my eyes adjust to my new vision.
It's not so much the activity of getting into VR, it's the nausea associated with your post-VR experience that needs to be fixed. I think this is still a big thing. I've played EVE using Oculus a few times and it's a great experience, until you come back to reality. VR still isn't "there". So hopefully it'll be good by that 2020 date, or it could be like 3D for sure. Same goes for AR. Hololens is fun for about 15 minutes and then becomes very annoying. To make it something useful, there are plenty of improvements that need to be made. Maybe 2020 is a good date though.
Oh, you're not alone. Disclaimer: I've never played Eve Valkyrie, but I can see the wisdom in starting with gentler experiences like Land's End or even Eve Gunjack.
2020 seems relatively optimistic. On the other hand, 4 years is a long time. Who knows? I'd also like to point out that there has been a continual trend here to... buck current trends?
So often on this board I would see:
2005 - 2010: 'Twitch (action) combat has no place in a MMO(RPG)' - many MMOs have twitch or action combat today (Vendetta Online, Dragon Nest, Tera, Realm of the Mad God)
2011 - 2016: 'MMOs will never work on mobile' - several great MMOs run on mobile today and are cross-platform (Vendetta Online, Albion Online)
2016+?: 'VR will never work for a MMO' - ... ?
naysaying is often the order of the day: it doesn't change reality, though. Things change, and it's great to be ahead of that change.
Just need to point out most of your examples are, shall we say under performing, and not rousing successes nor even MMOs I and others enjoy playing.
The most successful MMORPGs historically and at present remain tab target, played on large screen platforms with the alternates you put forth as largely... Meh.
VR will carve out it's place, but will remain solidly niche.
You are using a personal viewpoint to support a global argument. I'd say that any game that has kept me entertained for 13 years counts as a "success". I'm also not sure why you say that any of the examples I listed are "under performing"; they are open, and still accepting new customers on a regular basis.
On the other hand, I've seen you describe Eve as 'not fun'... and yet it seems to be the yardstick to which you compare all other MMORPGs? Maybe it's time for a change in perspective...
I'm not sure how you can support your claim that VR will "remain solidly niche"; at this point, it seems more like it's anyone's guess as to what it will do. It's already a billion dollar industry, and growing.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
For the same reason 3D didn't take off, its the glasses......
I actually kind of enjoy the kinesthetic activity of snapping the phone into the headset, pulling the strap over my head, taking a moment to let my eyes adjust to my new vision.
In my experience it's session time that's the problem. It's really cool but try to keep it on for an hour or two. 3d glasses are an absolute pleasure compared to a headset.
Personally, I think we're in one now. There are a ton of MMOs being developed that cover a wide variety of topics. Survival, Paranormal, SciFi, Fantasy, etc. Most aren't by big AAA companies, but I don't view AAA as the standard bearers anymore. The little guys are coming up with all kinds of creative things and hopefully some will stick.
I think a resurgence is possible, but highly unlikely in a manner that will fit the current definition of an MMO.
While I have as much nostalgia as anyone for the MMOs of yore, many people conveniently forget the almost universal constant of that era: time = win. I truly do appreciate the feeling of accomplishment of working hard toward a goal and being rewarded for it, but like most people who enjoyed that era I now have a job, a life outside of gaming, and real obligations that won't allow me to commit to that type of game no matter how much I might enjoy it. Furthermore, modern gamers are largely unwilling to play games that require that kind of time investment.
In other words, the models of the past won't ever re-surge as viable (IMO) and I have yet to see a successful MMORPG model that isn't time=win or P2W. If developers can find a formula that offers more immediate enjoyment (eliminate level grinding) and also an elder game that isn't reliant primarily on time investment then there is a chance.
If I were to guess, then the answer would be something more resembling an ARPG/MMO hybrid. Who knows, maybe Blizzcon this year will announce Diable IV: The MMO Hybrid.
The reality is, there is only a small number of players who want to and can play an old school MMO seriously. That small segment of gamers usually demands incredibly expensive technology in the MMO they will want to play (housing, sandbox, infini-quests) and are willing to pay nothing for it while spending 20 hours a day blowing through the game as fast as possible on a payment model based on how many MONTHS you play the game for.
Meanwhile, I can make an MMO with shiny graphics and drag and drop exclamation point quests that is free to play but you can buy Pets and wizard hats for real money which will appeal to millions of players who will play the game for a total measuring in HOURS and probably spend $100 on it each.
This is America, I'm betting on the latter version
I think we are already entering a new age of MMOs. Crowdfunding is having a major impact on the kind of MMOs we are seeing hit the scene. While indie crowdfunded MMOs are going to take awhile to get of the ground and the majority of the ground will never make it into the big leagues just one or two ones making it into the big leagues will have earth shattering implications for the genre.
If we are not about see a renaissance of MMOs, then we are about to see MMO fall into complete obscurity. "The grind" isn't something that can compete with MOBAs and other games you can get straight into, and for good reason:
Well, as an adult, I am pretty sure I know what I want. I'm not getting what I want which is why I'm not playing any of the new games. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the more time I invest into something, the more value I feel it has, and the more I enjoy it.
This guy explains it well:
and this guy
I did watch the entire 24 minute and some odd second video by the first guy. I didn't watch the second yet. I think the first guy in some ways makes my point whether he intends to or not. There is a part where he gets into the concept of "endgame" and how "there should be no endgame" it should all be about the "journey". I agree, hence this topic. Dramatic power progression is always going to lead to rushing content to get to the "end game" because the "end game" is:
A. Where you can do content together with ALL your friends and have fun. B. Where you can compete in PvP and not have your stats / quantity of grinding determine the outcome the majority of the time. C. Where you can do the content you truly want to be doing.
As long as those goals are withheld from players at the beginning, the majority are going to rush through and power level to reach that point as quickly as possible. For me the end game isn't so much where the game ends, as where it begins, and everything leading up to that point is a needless hurdle I need to jump over in order to reach that point. And THAT is what separates grinding in Skyrim from grinding in your general MMO. Skyrim is single player, therefore doing content together with my friends and being able to participate in PvP without serving as a punching bag due to stat imbalance are not a concern. So I do not feel a need to reach an endgame AKA the true beginning of the game. The game is fun from the start.
Now the thing is this guy is talking the entire time about how you need to be able to work at things. How you should be able to be proud of your accomplishments. How if anyone can come along and do something it cheapens it and makes it feel non-unique. Again I agree with ALL of these things.
The thing that he hit on, the true heart of the problem though, came when he was talking about burning core or whatever it was in WoW. How it used to take strategy and wits to overcome it, and now a tank can go charging through like a madman while the healer is just trying to keep up. WoW still has leveling, and fast or slow it isn't the leveling that creates the problem he's describing. It's the fact that the content is easy. As we've gone over quite at length in this topic if there is no stat progression you can create content so it is always easy or always challenging more easily. Instead of each challenging dungeon becoming easy the moment you lift the level cap or add higher tiers of gear. Or the moment you get that next tier of gear that takes forever to reach, the content remains super difficult all the time.
As far as having to work at things and feeling unique. I've lead alliances that were so powerful people called on the admins of our server to break them apart. I've started and ended more wars than I can count and over the years probably thousands of players have fought in them. Give me a good game with the ability to build cities and civilizations and I'll build you something far more meaningful than a number next to my character's name. Give me a game a game where I can fight over territory, build and destroy alliances and I'll accomplish things far more unique and interesting than being the first to overcome a scripted encounter or getting the rarest color of gear.
I can agree with a lot of what this guy says. But he's being short sighted. Levels, permanent gear, etc. isn't needed to create the kind of game he's describing. It just gets in the way of it. There are other ways to build something worth being proud of and other challenges than "how long do I have to spend building levels". Just because levels was how it was done before people discovered powerleveling doesn't mean returning to slow leveling will bring a return to the mystical "good old days" of gaming.
yes a game will eventually break thru by abandoning what's bad about today's MMO's. They need truly dynamic worlds(each server could have different statuses in regions but not implemented with scripted stuff like GW2), no more quest hubs to level (preferably no leveling up but other advancement systems), build it more on fun story based leveling and fun combat.
If I had to guess, a space based game with amazing land and space combat could break through.
At this point there are too many scammers,people with very poor morals. Point is it will take a much more HONEST developer and one that is willing to take some of the risk as well not get greedy and give back to the game. Naturally the game still has to be good,but if the business side is honest and fair i am sure people will adore it.
Right now the entire gaming industry is full lies and deceit and it is not right.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
2020 seems relatively optimistic. On the other hand, 4 years is a long time. Who knows? I'd also like to point out that there has been a continual trend here to... buck current trends?
So often on this board I would see:
2005 - 2010: 'Twitch (action) combat has no place in a MMO(RPG)' - many MMOs have twitch or action combat today (Vendetta Online, Dragon Nest, Tera, Realm of the Mad God)
2011 - 2016: 'MMOs will never work on mobile' - several great MMOs run on mobile today and are cross-platform (Vendetta Online, Albion Online)
2016+?: 'VR will never work for a MMO' - ... ?
naysaying is often the order of the day: it doesn't change reality, though. Things change, and it's great to be ahead of that change.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Now, you get asshats who have spent $100 so they have the most uber-elite gear the day after a game opens. Game developers cannot really spend the time combating this, or when they do they default to tactics that hurt all players rather than come close to stopping the sellers.
The other big thing that hurt the industry was the need to put a game out no matter its state rather than ensure you had a good product, or what I call the "Vanguard Syndrome". Vanguard should have been the next WoW. The world felt more real, the mechanics of many game features was new, and it had (what we thought would be a good thing) Brad McQuaid at the helm using Microsoft's money.
Then lots of drama happened and the game was not only released unfinished, it was released using a build that had already been patched a couple times. And SOE had no plans to reintroduce much of what had been patched in. So the game sucked. And nobody really bought it. And it died a slow death.
.
The most successful MMORPGs historically and at present remain tab target, played on large screen platforms with the alternates you put forth as largely... Meh.
VR will carve out it's place, but will remain solidly niche.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
...... also no cash shops.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
On the other hand, I've seen you describe Eve as 'not fun'... and yet it seems to be the yardstick to which you compare all other MMORPGs? Maybe it's time for a change in perspective...
I'm not sure how you can support your claim that VR will "remain solidly niche"; at this point, it seems more like it's anyone's guess as to what it will do. It's already a billion dollar industry, and growing.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I self identify as a monkey.
While I have as much nostalgia as anyone for the MMOs of yore, many people conveniently forget the almost universal constant of that era: time = win. I truly do appreciate the feeling of accomplishment of working hard toward a goal and being rewarded for it, but like most people who enjoyed that era I now have a job, a life outside of gaming, and real obligations that won't allow me to commit to that type of game no matter how much I might enjoy it. Furthermore, modern gamers are largely unwilling to play games that require that kind of time investment.
In other words, the models of the past won't ever re-surge as viable (IMO) and I have yet to see a successful MMORPG model that isn't time=win or P2W. If developers can find a formula that offers more immediate enjoyment (eliminate level grinding) and also an elder game that isn't reliant primarily on time investment then there is a chance.
If I were to guess, then the answer would be something more resembling an ARPG/MMO hybrid. Who knows, maybe Blizzcon this year will announce Diable IV: The MMO Hybrid.
Meanwhile, I can make an MMO with shiny graphics and drag and drop exclamation point quests that is free to play but you can buy Pets and wizard hats for real money which will appeal to millions of players who will play the game for a total measuring in HOURS and probably spend $100 on it each.
This is America, I'm betting on the latter version
http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/ An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
If we are not about see a renaissance of MMOs, then we are about to see MMO fall into complete obscurity. "The grind" isn't something that can compete with MOBAs and other games you can get straight into, and for good reason:
If I had to guess, a space based game with amazing land and space combat could break through.
Point is it will take a much more HONEST developer and one that is willing to take some of the risk as well not get greedy and give back to the game.
Naturally the game still has to be good,but if the business side is honest and fair i am sure people will adore it.
Right now the entire gaming industry is full lies and deceit and it is not right.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.