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Do You Support Full Loot? a Columns at MMORPG.com

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
edited October 2016 in News & Features Discussion

imageDo You Support Full Loot? a Columns at MMORPG.com

Last week I wrote about my hopes for New World and how, as a sandbox title, it could offer a new lease of life for the genre. One particular point that I wanted to discuss in greater depth was the prospect of fully open, player versus player looting. I know many might instantly shiver at the thought but for a sandbox to truly be, well, a sandbox, it surely has to have it.

Read the full story here



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Comments

  • SevalaSevala Member UncommonPosts: 220
    As long as you keep it out of my PVE games, I dun care, PVPers can gank themselves all they want. If your talking about a PVP+PVE game then nope, not supported, otherwise you can't do anything because there is just a pile of people waiting to gank you whenever you step foot out anyplace trying to do anything other than PVP.

    ~I am Many~

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    When its done right. Full loot is the best way.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • kishekishe Member UncommonPosts: 2,012
    there has been several ffa pvp with full loot mmo's made but none has managed to hold viable population. Full loot and pking worked when there was 1-2 mmo's to choose from, nowadays PKs end up with too many predators, not enough prey.
  • CobaltusCobaltus Member UncommonPosts: 36
    No on full loot. People will be stealing my tighty whities and everything else. Lots of sick pups out there. However PvP must have consequences.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    edited October 2016
    No, no, no. I don't know how people jump from "sandbox game" to "full loot pvp", but it's ridiculous. There are a number of sandbox games I've liked, including Uncharted Waters Online, Puzzle Pirates, and A Tale in the Desert. All of those did let you loot things from other players to some extent, but the only reason that didn't destroy the games is that the opportunities to do so were so restricted.
  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,571
    While it can be argued that full loot FFA is more authentic (although show me any completely lawless society because I can't think of one) the simple fact is that most people will avoid those games. If you want a commercial success then ffa full loot is not the way to go. At best you get a successful niche game like EVE, at worst you get a ghost town game like MO, DF and any number of other ffa full loot games.

    Sounds great in theory but in practice it just doesn't work because most developers are too lazy to write in a system dealing consequences, EVE being a notable exception, and the vast majority of players can't be arsed to deal with the ganking that is inevitible.
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908
    I haven't been following New World much, but I fundamentally disagree about player looting being essential to defining 'sandbox'.

    Plus, building a persistent MMO world just around a hardcore PvP playerbase will hurt them. They are the most fickle and intolerant of all MMO types... But, I guess PvP is cheap content generation, so remains popular with the accountants. Are they offering PvE servers or whatever?

  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Full loot, open world, free-for-all PvP?  No thanks.

    Despite the argument that this 'builds community' or 'models the real world', it really does neither.  Chaos doesn't work in society, and only works in games because there are no consequences.  Kill you neighbor and take his stuff?  That's a prescription for many years in jail, where you can't log to another character or account and play another character.

    Enjoy your gankfest.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • rodingorodingo Member RarePosts: 2,870
    edited October 2016
    Yeh "Full Loot" and "Sandbox" do not go hand in hand nor is one dependent on the other. If both of those features are in the same game then I think the overall population and health will suffer for it. It's one thing to loot a(singular) piece of gear or an ear as a trophy but to be able to strip a dead character clean of everything they were carrying is a bit ridiculous. If someone wants to use the "realistic" argument then in reality it should take you a minimum of, say, two minutes to take all of the gear off, then the weight of all that gear should definitely affect your character's performance in fighting, stamina, speed, etc.. And, if the person doesn't want to keep all of the gear but discard it, then the discarded gear should be persistent in the game world for someone else who does want it to be able top pick it up.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • ApexTKMApexTKM Member UncommonPosts: 334
    I disagree that full loot makes it a true sandbox. A true sandbox is SWG. What makes a true sandbox to you might not make it a true sandbox to other people depending on how you define it. My req for true sandbox is intricate, complex, and freedom.
    The acronym MMORPG use to mean Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

    But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Full Loot has no room in today's MMOs. Full loot will keep over 99% of the MMO population away and the game will be a bunch of gankers sitting around alone. You can see this back in ArcheAge when 200 people were on Freedrich and no one of them bringing trade packs to turn in. The players realized that no one wanted to take the risk of loosen something to a bunch of lazy people who would rather wait around hours for people to be their killing pet. This is why these games always have next to no population.
  • JhiaPetJhiaPet Member UncommonPosts: 46
    Full loot can work as long as it's monetized properly.  You can be a low down dirty pk'er, as long as you are willing to buy your way back to the game.  Not to simply buy back faction with some town guard system, but to actually keep attacking people there would be a nominal fee.

    So for example a pk'er dies and reappears as their spirit, and in order to resurrect it will cost a token from the cash shop that is  $5.  This ensures that there is balance in pk'ing because the cost will be measured against what is gained, rather then the no cost "harvesting tears" attitude that plagues PvP currently. 

    This also handles the sort of issues you get when people have a "good" character that plays nice, and then uses that to fund the "bad" character who only appears when it is safe to gank.  Separation of characters in this fashion destroys the immersion of the harsh world and leads to fractured playerbases.  By encouraging players to stick with their "main", people become more invested in your game and interactions between customers become more meaningful, which leverages the social aspect of gaming which seems to be escaping the current crop of developers.

    Simply, imposing a cost on an activity helps regulate the demand of the activity.  With no costs on a product (here, pk'ing) then demand is infinite from certain quarters.  This is a problem that can be solved with a simple price schedule.
  • Veexer_NuiVeexer_Nui Member UncommonPosts: 268
    I support full loot. but I don't support 100 people zerging 1 person to take all his loot.

    Archeage EU - Nui

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    No
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    I support it for any game in which the developer deems it nessesarily for thier title.

    Personally I won't play them though and even argue that a "sandbox" doesn't even need PvP to be one.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    If it's done the right way, why not? It's not about the feature it's how it's implemented.
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521

    rodingo said:

    Yeh "Full Loot" and "Sandbox" do not go hand in hand nor is one dependent on the other. If both of those features are in the same game then I think the overall population and health will suffer for it. It's one thing to loot a(singular) piece of gear or an ear as a trophy but to be able to strip a dead character clean of everything they were carrying is a bit ridiculous. If someone wants to use the "realistic" argument then in reality it should take you a minimum of, say, two minutes to take all of the gear off, then the weight of all that gear should definitely affect your character's performance in fighting, stamina, speed, etc.. And, if the person doesn't want to keep all of the gear but discard it, then the discarded gear should be persistent in the game world for someone else who does want it to be able top pick it up.



    The realistic angle doesn't work period as the players have more insight and knowledge outside of the game that the realism is trying to emulate.
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 8,060
    Only in games tailor-made to complement it. That means that this loot system is an integral part of the economy and the game has a relatively low grind curve for BiS gear.
  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Member UncommonPosts: 1,085
    edited October 2016
    Rust is a full loot sandbox, it works just fine, and I enjoy the hell out of it. Might not be what many people here consider an MMO, but with servers hosting up to 200 players in some circumstances, it certainly feels that way. I absolutely support full loot if the crafting allows players to make and replace the best gear available.

    I'd also mention Ultima Online, but I know many detractors will attempt to curb that argument by pointing out the introduction of Trammel. Regardless of your position, the crafting system pre-Trammel allowed players to make and replace weapons and armor that were extremely competitive, even against most of the magical variants (though there were exceptions). This softens the burden of loss, and allows people to create contingency plans in the way of an armory. If you died, so what? You had twenty more suits of armor and twenty more swords to go kick ass with.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • AlomarAlomar Member RarePosts: 1,299
    edited October 2016
    As a 17 year mmo vet who is an admitted extremely hardcore, I tend to be in the top 3% per game, pvper I really don't like full loot. I love the idea of making death in pvp meaningful, but the two biggest ways it's been done, loss of xp or full loot, have far too many drawbacks.

    Full loot doesn't appeal to a wide enough audience anymore, gone are the days when mmo's were new, hard, and the majority of players were extremely hardcore, patient, and dedicated. I really think it would be much smarter to appeal to both ends of the spectrum in terms of pvpers by finding a middle ground. I like what MJ stated CU would have, he expressed loosing a part of your soul that was reclaimable, for example. Come up with a unique system that doesn't repel huge chunks of the pvp community before a title is even released.

    A perfect example would be out of the 7 friends I know who are very interested in Dark and Light. 5 of the 7 are almost completely turned off by the notion of full loot.
    Haxus Council Member
    21  year MMO veteran 
    PvP Raid Leader 
    Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,222
    I support full loot under the right circumstances. There needs to be a bank that you can put your materials in that other people cannot loot. Also the world would need to be large so you are not ganked every ten minutes.

    Other than that the OP is correct. The intensity is on a completely different level. Also the lasting memories are sooo much more than I've had in every other "safe" themepark that I've ever played.
  • 3dom3dom Member RarePosts: 889
    Full loot => no item progression => not an interesting RPG => me quit sooner rather than later because without item progression PvP is better in MOBAs or shooters.

    Thank you for your time!

  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,222
    DMKano said:
    Lawlmonster said:
    Rust is a full loot sandbox, it works just fine, and I enjoy the hell out of it. Might not be what many people here consider an MMO, but with servers hosting up to 200 players in some circumstances, it certainly feels that way. I absolutely support full loot if the crafting allows players to make and replace the best gear available.

    I'd also mention Ultima Online, but I know many detractors will attempt to curb that argument by pointing out the introduction of Trammel. Regardless of your position, the crafting system pre-Trammel allowed players to make and replace weapons and armor that were extremely competitive, even against most of the magical variants (though there were exceptions). This softens the burden of loss, and allows people to create contingency plans in the way of an armory. If you died, so what? You had twenty more suits of armor and twenty more swords to go kick ass with.


    Yes but the end result is that armor and weapons didn't feel special but rather "disposable".

    Full loot PvP where the meta is having a stash of gear that you can use when you die sort of defeats the purpose of looting players as it's all disposable loot in the end.

    It's not really any more hardcore when you just use one of your 30 weapons or armor anyways.

    Might as well just let everyone keep their gear and skip the tedium.
    Well if you aren't a pro PvP'er you have to spend hours farming that gear.  Also many of these games have durability loss on gank, which would require all but the top 1% to get out in the world and farm at least a little bit.  No sure what the definition of "hardcore" is but I felt real dread and extreme happiness much more than I would falling asleep at the keyboard in ESO or a game like that.
  • exile01exile01 Member RarePosts: 1,089
    If i lose my stuff i dont, but if the enemy does, i do.
  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Member UncommonPosts: 1,085
    DMKano said:
    Lawlmonster said:
    Rust is a full loot sandbox, it works just fine, and I enjoy the hell out of it. Might not be what many people here consider an MMO, but with servers hosting up to 200 players in some circumstances, it certainly feels that way. I absolutely support full loot if the crafting allows players to make and replace the best gear available.

    I'd also mention Ultima Online, but I know many detractors will attempt to curb that argument by pointing out the introduction of Trammel. Regardless of your position, the crafting system pre-Trammel allowed players to make and replace weapons and armor that were extremely competitive, even against most of the magical variants (though there were exceptions). This softens the burden of loss, and allows people to create contingency plans in the way of an armory. If you died, so what? You had twenty more suits of armor and twenty more swords to go kick ass with.


    Yes but the end result is that armor and weapons didn't feel special but rather "disposable".

    Full loot PvP where the meta is having a stash of gear that you can use when you die sort of defeats the purpose of looting players as it's all disposable loot in the end.

    It's not really any more hardcore when you just use one of your 30 weapons or armor anyways.

    Might as well just let everyone keep their gear and skip the tedium.
    Couldn't disagree with you more. A game built around gear loss and PvP is all about using the work of other players to your advantage. It's far faster to kill some dude who's geared and take his stuff, than it is to grind the resources and build my own. You have the options to do either, and most players will eventually be doing both. Not to mention, acquiring a healthy store of loot is the padding you need to soften that burden of loss. You don't just start with that stuff, you have to work your way there, which makes every piece of gear you gank or build very important.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

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