...I fully understand if you’re the type of player that simply likes to log in, get on, and accomplish something without risk, but if you’re that sort of player, a full sandbox experience likely isn’t for you anyway...
As I see it the risk Vs reward is the real problem of MMOs with full loot. If you gather up some people and hunt players that are weaker or fewer then you you will gain that gear many times faster then if you craft it or loot it from mobs and that is not a good system.
That you gain somewhat more for killing another player then a mob is fine, players are more dangerous generally but a player can give you many times the gear and cash and that is not balanced.
If you loot a random gear or cash from the player it is fine, but full loot screws up the entire game, since there is little point to do anything else then killing other players making crafting and mobs useless distractions. If the entire point of the game is players killing each other with zero distractions you could just skip the gear altogether and all PvE content could be scrapped.
Full loot sounds good on paper but it will not make a fun long term game no matter what you remember about playing UO in the 90s. Looting things from other players are fine but not all of them, there is a balance to how much you should gain from a single combat.
There are far more things you need to make a good PvP sandbox then a good loot system, but I don't ever see a full loot sandbox getting more then a handful players. And OP might say that it is because most of us shouldn't play sandboxes (whatever a "full sandbox" is) but that is not the problem at all. All MMOs, no matter if they are PvE, PvP or a mix of them need a good balance. If you loot a full set of good gear from a single player or mob that balance just isn't there.
For people to enjoy a MMO game long term they need to gain power slowly and also loose that power slowly if they mess up or someone outsmart them. And there is always a bunch of people calling me carebear for that opinion but that isn't what it is about.
if it's done right it can be extremely exciting. Eve does it best imo. great balance between high safety, low gains secure space, and no safety, high gain free for all space. ti's truly a beautiful thing.
the biggest problem most full loot games get themselves into is to allow too much greefing. there needs to be heavy punishments for people that repeatedly kill, or harass the same player. the second biggest problem is that they never have enough secure space for those that don't want to pvp. without the sheep, wolves go hungry.
again EvE has gotten the closest to a perfect balance. high sec, low sec, null sec....choose your adventure.
Give me a stealth toggle, combat teleport scrolls, and make the city safe zones and I'll play.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
A completely open sandbox that lacks rules ends up in chaos.
So no I don't support FFA, Full loot, perma-death, no consequence, PvP. FFA, full loot is thoughtless design, punishing without purpose.
Neocron is how PvP can be done well. Start without being a participant or victim of PvP (Law Enforcement Implant). This puts you at a minor disadvantage. If you make the hard decision to opt-in it's permanent. Without LE you can drop 1 or more of your items (except your locked quick slot) depending on how much of a law abiding or criminal citizen you are. What you drop in your "belt" can only be taken by someone skilled or highly skilled in the hack skill, also depending on how much of a criminal you are. Different areas have different rules to how your criminal rating (soullight) is impacted. Ganking noobs roaming the lawful parts of the city is going to be more more punishing than other places or not at all in warzones where faction/clan PvP is common and you don't drop anything.
I got to love this part. fully understand if you’re the type of player that simply likes to log in, get on, and accomplish something without risk, but if you’re that sort of player, a full sandbox experience likely isn’t for you anyway. Chopping away parts of a sandbox game in order to ensure it’s exactly to your liking is missing the point: you’re effectively only seeking an MMO with more depth, as opposed to a total package offering players complete freedom.
You some kind of mmoRPG tough guy there. Unless there is permadeath and loss of progression you don't have risk. Your posturing is BS.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Rust is a full loot sandbox, it works just fine, and I enjoy the hell out of it. Might not be what many people here consider an MMO, but with servers hosting up to 200 players in some circumstances, it certainly feels that way. I absolutely support full loot if the crafting allows players to make and replace the best gear available.
I'd also mention Ultima Online, but I know many detractors will attempt to curb that argument by pointing out the introduction of Trammel. Regardless of your position, the crafting system pre-Trammel allowed players to make and replace weapons and armor that were extremely competitive, even against most of the magical variants (though there were exceptions). This softens the burden of loss, and allows people to create contingency plans in the way of an armory. If you died, so what? You had twenty more suits of armor and twenty more swords to go kick ass with.
Yes but the end result is that armor and weapons didn't feel special but rather "disposable".
Full loot PvP where the meta is having a stash of gear that you can use when you die sort of defeats the purpose of looting players as it's all disposable loot in the end.
It's not really any more hardcore when you just use one of your 30 weapons or armor anyways.
Might as well just let everyone keep their gear and skip the tedium.
Couldn't disagree with you more. A game built around gear loss and PvP is all about using the work of other players to your advantage. It's far faster to kill some dude who's geared and take his stuff, than it is to grind the resources and build my own. You have the options to do either, and most players will eventually be doing both. Not to mention, acquiring a healthy store of loot is the padding you need to soften that burden of loss. You don't just start with that stuff, you have to work your way there, which makes every piece of gear you gank or build very important.
Who is gearing up to be killed by some lazy jerk, when the entire server becomes this way? When everyone is sitting around waiting for someone else to do the work, but no one is when they know there are 30+ people waiting for him to do it, then gear is meaningless as no one will have any.
don't care what anyone else says, but hell no, I like exp drop, gold drop, some item drop, but not full loot. I hate having to have back up set after back up set of gear
If it's done the right way, why not? It's not about the feature it's how it's implemented.
I would like to know what the "right way" is? It would seem that no major game has figured it out as of yet...
I agree. There's a lot features major games haven't got right though, so if that's meant to be some justification for why it shouldn't be explored I disagree on that.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Full loot is about causing the victim to suffer loss, specifically the loss of items. Non-Full loot is about causing the victor to suffer loss, specifically the loss of looted items.
At first I was going to focus on a point that Lewis Burnell made. Players spend time and resources acquiring stuff. Stuff that they place a value on. That is the solution, remove the value. When I played Planetside 1, we had full loot of items stored in our back pack. There was not cost to that gear, so there was no sense of loss of it.
In an RPG, there will always be a cost. Resources must be gathered, items must be crafted. Currency must be traded. Value is placed on these items.
Full loot is about making one side suffer, but I'm all for making both sides suffer. Especial the side that wants full loot, of the sides they are the ones that deserve to suffer the most. So I thought about item insurance, to prevent item decay and possibly item full loot. If some group wants to loot items off a player corpse, why not give them RNG loot trash items.
Full loot is about exploiting the auction house, and acquiring items for no cost. There is no reason to allow full loot in any game that has resource harvesting, crafting, and a player economy. Eliminate those thing and you're free to have it again.
But then you eliminate the Explorer who gather resources, the Achievers who craft the items, and the Socializers who play the Auction house. You're left with Killers, and no one wants a full loot game full of Killers. Especial those who want full loot.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
you die, you drop what you got with you. seems legit.
but i also liked the way neocron (in it's unnerfed way) had it, where you dropped alle your stuff, but it was in your secured belt thingie.
enemies who wanted your stuff had to hack it to get access (which took some time and skill), plus, it would mark em hostile for lawfull (normal) players, incase they were the ones who attacked you, they had that tag anyway tho.. (they could be attacked, and were attacked on sight by lawenforcement NPCs)
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
The "full-loot" feature has a significant impact on design choices concerning loot, equipment, and inventory functionality. I support the 'idea' behind full-loot, but that support comes with the caveat that the design decisions that come with it are to my liking.
Rust is a full loot sandbox, it works just fine, and I enjoy the hell out of it. Might not be what many people here consider an MMO, but with servers hosting up to 200 players in some circumstances, it certainly feels that way. I absolutely support full loot if the crafting allows players to make and replace the best gear available.
I'd also mention Ultima Online, but I know many detractors will attempt to curb that argument by pointing out the introduction of Trammel. Regardless of your position, the crafting system pre-Trammel allowed players to make and replace weapons and armor that were extremely competitive, even against most of the magical variants (though there were exceptions). This softens the burden of loss, and allows people to create contingency plans in the way of an armory. If you died, so what? You had twenty more suits of armor and twenty more swords to go kick ass with.
So let's forget about Trammel. I see full-loot about acquiring items by by passing the grind of harvesting and crafting. All for the purpose of making credits on the Auction house. And sticking it to the crafting community. The solution I see, remove the ability to resell fully-looted items. Looters have loads of trophies, or items to delete. But they don't make credits or compete with crafters.
The PvP becomes a fight until one side runs out of gear and can't return. But I would still allow the fallen to make a corps run, to reacquire their gear. Then run back to their spawn point. Time waste that lengthens their return to the fight.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I'll just touch on ONE of the many issues that Full-Loot PVP centric gaming has. EVE has a wonderful background, organic content, meaningful wars etc etc. But you cannot "actually" defeat your enemy. The scale of the wars in EVE are so large that even if you consistently whip the snot out of your foes, they've got renters/industry/easy money kicking them into new ships and back into the fight. The only way to reliably beat your enemies is to exhaust their will to fight, or in this sense, their will to play the game. That's a TERRIBLE way to keep folks invested in the game and continuing to play/pay/contribute to the betterment of a living world. (This is in relation to the huge-mungus alliance fights, not the small scale stuff...if that still goes on).
Letting players fight how they want pretty much leads to Buffalo Herds stampeding around the game tearing up everything in their way and pretty much decimating any hope of "good fights." Lost to the scared "leet pvp'ers" in the gigantic herd.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Rust is a full loot sandbox, it works just fine, and I enjoy the hell out of it. Might not be what many people here consider an MMO, but with servers hosting up to 200 players in some circumstances, it certainly feels that way. I absolutely support full loot if the crafting allows players to make and replace the best gear available.
I'd also mention Ultima Online, but I know many detractors will attempt to curb that argument by pointing out the introduction of Trammel. Regardless of your position, the crafting system pre-Trammel allowed players to make and replace weapons and armor that were extremely competitive, even against most of the magical variants (though there were exceptions). This softens the burden of loss, and allows people to create contingency plans in the way of an armory. If you died, so what? You had twenty more suits of armor and twenty more swords to go kick ass with.
Yes but the end result is that armor and weapons didn't feel special but rather "disposable".
Full loot PvP where the meta is having a stash of gear that you can use when you die sort of defeats the purpose of looting players as it's all disposable loot in the end.
It's not really any more hardcore when you just use one of your 30 weapons or armor anyways.
Might as well just let everyone keep their gear and skip the tedium.
Couldn't disagree with you more. A game built around gear loss and PvP is all about using the work of other players to your advantage. It's far faster to kill some dude who's geared and take his stuff, than it is to grind the resources and build my own. You have the options to do either, and most players will eventually be doing both. Not to mention, acquiring a healthy store of loot is the padding you need to soften that burden of loss. You don't just start with that stuff, you have to work your way there, which makes every piece of gear you gank or build very important.
More likely the well geared will be doing the killing and looting. The less geared will remain, the less geared and frequently killed. Why should any game mechanic support taking advantage of others hard work? Developers are all about hard work, and they HATE those who take advantage of it. And they are not dumb enough not to realize the intent behinding the request.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
When it's done RIGHT. Those who crave it, won't want it. They only want it, when it's done wrong.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Let all the fans of full loot toggle their participation in full loot so they can be looted to their hearts desire. What? The only part of full loot they want to participate in is the looting? Not the being looted? If the only thing they get out of full loot, is bing looted, then they don't want it?
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Comments
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As I see it the risk Vs reward is the real problem of MMOs with full loot. If you gather up some people and hunt players that are weaker or fewer then you you will gain that gear many times faster then if you craft it or loot it from mobs and that is not a good system.
That you gain somewhat more for killing another player then a mob is fine, players are more dangerous generally but a player can give you many times the gear and cash and that is not balanced.
If you loot a random gear or cash from the player it is fine, but full loot screws up the entire game, since there is little point to do anything else then killing other players making crafting and mobs useless distractions. If the entire point of the game is players killing each other with zero distractions you could just skip the gear altogether and all PvE content could be scrapped.
Full loot sounds good on paper but it will not make a fun long term game no matter what you remember about playing UO in the 90s. Looting things from other players are fine but not all of them, there is a balance to how much you should gain from a single combat.
There are far more things you need to make a good PvP sandbox then a good loot system, but I don't ever see a full loot sandbox getting more then a handful players. And OP might say that it is because most of us shouldn't play sandboxes (whatever a "full sandbox" is) but that is not the problem at all. All MMOs, no matter if they are PvE, PvP or a mix of them need a good balance. If you loot a full set of good gear from a single player or mob that balance just isn't there.
For people to enjoy a MMO game long term they need to gain power slowly and also loose that power slowly if they mess up or someone outsmart them. And there is always a bunch of people calling me carebear for that opinion but that isn't what it is about.
the biggest problem most full loot games get themselves into is to allow too much greefing. there needs to be heavy punishments for people that repeatedly kill, or harass the same player. the second biggest problem is that they never have enough secure space for those that don't want to pvp. without the sheep, wolves go hungry.
again EvE has gotten the closest to a perfect balance. high sec, low sec, null sec....choose your adventure.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
So no I don't support FFA, Full loot, perma-death, no consequence, PvP. FFA, full loot is thoughtless design, punishing without purpose.
Neocron is how PvP can be done well. Start without being a participant or victim of PvP (Law Enforcement Implant). This puts you at a minor disadvantage. If you make the hard decision to opt-in it's permanent. Without LE you can drop 1 or more of your items (except your locked quick slot) depending on how much of a law abiding or criminal citizen you are. What you drop in your "belt" can only be taken by someone skilled or highly skilled in the hack skill, also depending on how much of a criminal you are. Different areas have different rules to how your criminal rating (soullight) is impacted. Ganking noobs roaming the lawful parts of the city is going to be more more punishing than other places or not at all in warzones where faction/clan PvP is common and you don't drop anything.
You some kind of mmoRPG tough guy there. Unless there is permadeath and loss of progression you don't have risk. Your posturing is BS.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Who is gearing up to be killed by some lazy jerk, when the entire server becomes this way? When everyone is sitting around waiting for someone else to do the work, but no one is when they know there are 30+ people waiting for him to do it, then gear is meaningless as no one will have any.
I would like to know what the "right way" is? It would seem that no major game has figured it out as of yet...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Because that's what it will have if it's ever implemented as full-loot FFA PVP.
At first I was going to focus on a point that Lewis Burnell made. Players spend time and resources acquiring stuff. Stuff that they place a value on. That is the solution, remove the value. When I played Planetside 1, we had full loot of items stored in our back pack. There was not cost to that gear, so there was no sense of loss of it.
In an RPG, there will always be a cost. Resources must be gathered, items must be crafted. Currency must be traded. Value is placed on these items.
Full loot is about making one side suffer, but I'm all for making both sides suffer. Especial the side that wants full loot, of the sides they are the ones that deserve to suffer the most. So I thought about item insurance, to prevent item decay and possibly item full loot. If some group wants to loot items off a player corpse, why not give them RNG loot trash items.
Full loot is about exploiting the auction house, and acquiring items for no cost. There is no reason to allow full loot in any game that has resource harvesting, crafting, and a player economy. Eliminate those thing and you're free to have it again.
But then you eliminate the Explorer who gather resources, the Achievers who craft the items, and the Socializers who play the Auction house. You're left with Killers, and no one wants a full loot game full of Killers. Especial those who want full loot.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
That's pretty much what most full loot proponents mean when they announce their support for it.
~~ postlarval ~~
you die, you drop what you got with you. seems legit.
but i also liked the way neocron (in it's unnerfed way) had it, where you dropped alle your stuff, but it was in your secured belt thingie.
enemies who wanted your stuff had to hack it to get access (which took some time and skill), plus, it would mark em hostile for lawfull (normal) players, incase they were the ones who attacked you, they had that tag anyway tho.. (they could be attacked, and were attacked on sight by lawenforcement NPCs)
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
The PvP becomes a fight until one side runs out of gear and can't return. But I would still allow the fallen to make a corps run, to reacquire their gear. Then run back to their spawn point. Time waste that lengthens their return to the fight.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Letting players fight how they want pretty much leads to Buffalo Herds stampeding around the game tearing up everything in their way and pretty much decimating any hope of "good fights." Lost to the scared "leet pvp'ers" in the gigantic herd.
Still waiting for that first game to get it right, hasn't happened yet so far.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.