People are having a hard time understanding what is P2W, so here goes ...
"Pay 2 Win" is a concept Devs implement in to a game to "force" fanbois of the game to keep "feeling buff" from start to end game by buying buff potions to facilitate your progression. So in a sense, you start off a new MMO at level 1, you plow through content without need of the cash shop, but at a certain level (usually mid lvl's) your progression slows down dramatically, sure at that point you can grind your butt off but with the convenience of a P2W cash shop that is well planned will make you waste cash for you to buff up so you can actually plow through the content like you did when you started the game.
Now about inventory upgrade, if it's P2W or not, that depends, if you got a 12 slow bag through the whole game but there's like 500+ different type of items to gather where half of those are useful somewhere down the line, perhaps it is P2W, but bags are usually permanent, and if you're buying permanent bags, then you fell right in to the Devs trap, because soon after you'll start to mindlessly start putting cash on more direct P2W items, and by the time you know it, all the money you wasted on the P2W title, could have been gone in to paying a 5 year sub fee to EVE-Online or any other P2P sub game.
Seriously, if you see a title in Alpha stages, but already has a item shop fully up and running and selling "Collector's edition" for X amount of cash loaded with cash shop items for example 30days / 60days duration, then that right there is a major red flag because once those cash shop items expires, chances are you'll have to keep paying month after month to fully take advantage of the "F2P" title.
Technically, this is the bottom line when it comes to P2P vs F2P, a P2P you pay per month and what you see is what you get with no strings attached. F2P on the other hand is "Free", but if you really want to pull the maximum potential the F2P title has to offer, you better open up your check book, because almost all F2P titles cost more per month than a P2P to fully take advantage of. Those that say that never paid a dime to F2P games are 50% telling the truth, because they buy off RMT's that give you more gold per cash than if you were to buy the items off the cash shop and selling them on the auction house. And besides, saying you never put a dime is counter productive, because not putting a dime = no cash for Devs and no cash for Devs = your precious F2P title shuts down. So in the end "Bragging" about not putting a dime just makes you look stupid. Also, almost all RMT's are from Asia and almost all new MMO's are from Asia, so don't be surprised at all if RMT's and Asian Devs got some kind of deal going on, because it's pretty obvious they are. At least if you look earlier this week what SE did with FF14, they banned a nice chunk of people for life for RMT activities.
Imagine if Super Mario Bros in the 80's made you pay real cash to use that mushroom or flower to buff up? Let that thought sink in for a while. That is what F2P titles are all about, but online gamer's, for the most part, are in deep denial.
In regard to FF11 inventory bags, if I think they're P2W? No, SE is one of the few I trust when it comes to MMO gaming.
If you have to purchase anything that should be part of the game already (such as inventory), then yes it's p2w. LOTRO was guilty of this but at least you could get the points by doing quests too so it wasn't so bad. There are many others as well.
In a pay-to-play game I feel this exercise is exploitive of it's player-base & for pure greed. The inventory space should be included with the monthly subscription. It displays a lack of respect towards it's current subscribers.
Unless you have access to FFXI's finances you are talking out of your ass when you say its pure greed.
The game has had a very low player base for several years now. Maybe it needs more income to be profitable, or to justify its opportunity cost?
If you have to purchase anything that should be part of the game already (such as inventory), then yes it's p2w.
Knowing that the w stands for 'win', i cant fathom how anyone can actually feel this way. pay2belessannoyed, yes. pay2havetovendorlessoften? Sure. pay2win? uh, not even close.
I'm not sure many people agree with me, but I feel any, ANY, advantage to a player beyond cosmetic is p2w.
Inventory space? p2w. Experience potions? p2w. Faster Mounts? p2w. Access to special dungeons/dlc? p2w.
In my own, twisted view, if a game wants to flag itself as a f2p title, the entire game needs to be f2p. The only thing I feel that should be allowed for purchase is cosmetic materials, such as cooler looking mounts, armor, housing, etc. That's it.
I much prefer games that are p2p. You pay one price, albeit once or monthly, and you have access to the whole game.
A true expansion is about the only thing that I feel is justified in paying for, but they tend to be too expensive. Expansions seem to be price-tagged at the same price as the entire original game and yet offer usually around 10-25% additional content -- depending on the game. That just doesn't add up.
Only costumes should always ever be allowed in Item Malls. Buying bag space is not directly a power advantage but saving time between travelling to town to dungeon just to sell monster crap means that guy with more bag space has to do it more therefore he can grind continuously longer is a time advantage.
No, any way you slice it the term p2W was meant as way to describe buying items of power, not conveniences. Inventory space is not an item of power. Trying to include such things under the P2W moniker is extremely distorting the meaning of that moniker. It's like calling jaywalking a driving offense.
That doesn't make you or them any less guilty of grossly misconstruing what P2W actually means, why not call it what it really is? Exploitation. They're exploiting a popular want to make money, because that's the easiest way to make money.
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So wait, first you need to pay a sub to even play the game, then you need to pay a sub ontop of that for inventory? That's quite ridiculous, if it was a 1 time fee i could understand. But is it p2w? Extra inventory space is not p2w in and ofitself, however if the game has mechanics that revolve around limited bag space and is connected to something competitive, then yes it could be p2w.
As long as people who don't pay for it can get good amount of inventory space for free, more inventory space is more a matter of convenience than something that would allow you to progress faster.
I guess technically that doesn't mean you have to pay to win, however giving users an option to pay more than other users to acquire in game advantages crosses the line with me. I don't care how good the game is, I will always stand against the idea of any kind of cash shop on principle.
What if SE decided to upgrade their monthly fee from $15 a month to $20 a month? Is not having a choice in the matter a more fair proposition? It's amazing how things change when you look at it from a different angle.
I think that is a much better solution than allowing certain individuals to pay more than others. All or nothing. But I will always stand against in game advantage to those who pay more than other players.
What if SE decided to upgrade their monthly fee from $15 a month to $20 a month? Is not having a choice in the matter a more fair proposition? It's amazing how things change when you look at it from a different angle.
I think that is a much better solution than allowing certain individuals to pay more than others. All or nothing. But I will always stand against in game advantage to those who pay more than other players.
so are you against free to play players in a sub game?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
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because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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So ffxi has added 160 slots of extra inventory for $4 a month, this is a p2p mmo.
There was quite an uproar about this among ffxi players, do you consider this p2w or not?
Not at all though you will get some people like Xatsh that seem to think anything that is purchasable makes a game p2w even if you don't need it at all and it doesn't help you win anything particularly in a game that is basically pve only (it has very limited PVP)
To the OP. Not sure if I'd call it p2w, would likely depend on the game. However I do consider efforts to place minimum game-play mechanics and features behind a pay wall indicative of a poor game content wise. Imho if the game-play itself is so bleh and content so poor the only way you can get people to throw $ at you is to pull stunts like that it's probably not a game worth paying for anyway. Or for a sub game to add heavy grind elements because your content isn't good enough to keep people playing(and paying)
Good games people find a way to pay for ; bad games, find a way to get paid through other means. This isn't a knock on just f2p game. I consider putting basic game play elements behind a paywall no different than adding arbitrary grind mechanics to compensate for lack of content in a sub game. Both are the low bar solution to a dire lack of content people will pay to play and *gasp* dare I say, even enjoy.
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No, any way you slice it the term p2W was meant as way to describe buying items of power, not conveniences. Inventory space is not an item of power. Trying to include such things under the P2W moniker is extremely distorting the meaning of that moniker. It's like calling jaywalking a driving offense.
3/4 people responding to a poll that is 124 people at most and most of them are clearly people that don't actually get that P2W has a specific definition. You don't get to arbitrarily decide it means something else. Convenience items do not give you ANY sort of actual advantage over other people and you and people that agree with your definition which by the way you should actually stipulate varying things because your poll is utter shit in a hand bag quite literally. A - you don't define any other definition that people could state IE the definition distopia gave isn't an option on your little poll so your poll is utterly skewed and seems meant to state something it doesn't actually state as even with his definition he'd have to hit option 1 as your options again are complete and utter trash. It is basically saying buying anything that gives an advantage without explaining what advantage actually means in the scenario of MMORPGs.
Something that gives you more bag space is not giving you any sort of winning advantage or anything beyond other people. You are literally making a farcical statement (you and people that support your "supposed" definition. I was around when the term was coined literally, I know its literal meaning, and I know how badly your type skew it to literally mean purchasing anything. A purely cosmetic shop would be viewed as P2W by some of your type too because it gives you the advantage of looking better than other people...
Your definition is skewed and it doesn't matter if other people agree with you or not because their definition is skewed to. There is the literal definition of p2w and the farcical bullshit your type tries to turn it into for your anti f2p agenda that frankly is sickening.
I wouldn't immediately call expanded inventory pay to win, but if the standard inventory was unreasonably small, then I would since you need some room for things.
Either way, paying a sub and still having to pay, especially an additional sub, for basic functionality like inventory just reeks of cash grabbing.
Comments
"Pay 2 Win" is a concept Devs implement in to a game to "force" fanbois of the game to keep "feeling buff" from start to end game by buying buff potions to facilitate your progression. So in a sense, you start off a new MMO at level 1, you plow through content without need of the cash shop, but at a certain level (usually mid lvl's) your progression slows down dramatically, sure at that point you can grind your butt off but with the convenience of a P2W cash shop that is well planned will make you waste cash for you to buff up so you can actually plow through the content like you did when you started the game.
Now about inventory upgrade, if it's P2W or not, that depends, if you got a 12 slow bag through the whole game but there's like 500+ different type of items to gather where half of those are useful somewhere down the line, perhaps it is P2W, but bags are usually permanent, and if you're buying permanent bags, then you fell right in to the Devs trap, because soon after you'll start to mindlessly start putting cash on more direct P2W items, and by the time you know it, all the money you wasted on the P2W title, could have been gone in to paying a 5 year sub fee to EVE-Online or any other P2P sub game.
Seriously, if you see a title in Alpha stages, but already has a item shop fully up and running and selling "Collector's edition" for X amount of cash loaded with cash shop items for example 30days / 60days duration, then that right there is a major red flag because once those cash shop items expires, chances are you'll have to keep paying month after month to fully take advantage of the "F2P" title.
Technically, this is the bottom line when it comes to P2P vs F2P, a P2P you pay per month and what you see is what you get with no strings attached. F2P on the other hand is "Free", but if you really want to pull the maximum potential the F2P title has to offer, you better open up your check book, because almost all F2P titles cost more per month than a P2P to fully take advantage of. Those that say that never paid a dime to F2P games are 50% telling the truth, because they buy off RMT's that give you more gold per cash than if you were to buy the items off the cash shop and selling them on the auction house. And besides, saying you never put a dime is counter productive, because not putting a dime = no cash for Devs and no cash for Devs = your precious F2P title shuts down. So in the end "Bragging" about not putting a dime just makes you look stupid. Also, almost all RMT's are from Asia and almost all new MMO's are from Asia, so don't be surprised at all if RMT's and Asian Devs got some kind of deal going on, because it's pretty obvious they are. At least if you look earlier this week what SE did with FF14, they banned a nice chunk of people for life for RMT activities.
Imagine if Super Mario Bros in the 80's made you pay real cash to use that mushroom or flower to buff up? Let that thought sink in for a while. That is what F2P titles are all about, but online gamer's, for the most part, are in deep denial.
In regard to FF11 inventory bags, if I think they're P2W? No, SE is one of the few I trust when it comes to MMO gaming.
The game has had a very low player base for several years now. Maybe it needs more income to be profitable, or to justify its opportunity cost?
pay2belessannoyed, yes. pay2havetovendorlessoften? Sure. pay2win? uh, not even close.
Inventory space? p2w.
Experience potions? p2w.
Faster Mounts? p2w.
Access to special dungeons/dlc? p2w.
In my own, twisted view, if a game wants to flag itself as a f2p title, the entire game needs to be f2p. The only thing I feel that should be allowed for purchase is cosmetic materials, such as cooler looking mounts, armor, housing, etc. That's it.
I much prefer games that are p2p. You pay one price, albeit once or monthly, and you have access to the whole game.
A true expansion is about the only thing that I feel is justified in paying for, but they tend to be too expensive. Expansions seem to be price-tagged at the same price as the entire original game and yet offer usually around 10-25% additional content -- depending on the game. That just doesn't add up.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
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That said, bankslots is not pay2win. It doesn't actually give you a combat advantage or increases the dropchance of goodies.
so are you against free to play players in a sub game?
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Good games people find a way to pay for ; bad games, find a way to get paid through other means. This isn't a knock on just f2p game. I consider putting basic game play elements behind a paywall no different than adding arbitrary grind mechanics to compensate for lack of content in a sub game. Both are the low bar solution to a dire lack of content people will pay to play and *gasp* dare I say, even enjoy.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Something that gives you more bag space is not giving you any sort of winning advantage or anything beyond other people. You are literally making a farcical statement (you and people that support your "supposed" definition. I was around when the term was coined literally, I know its literal meaning, and I know how badly your type skew it to literally mean purchasing anything. A purely cosmetic shop would be viewed as P2W by some of your type too because it gives you the advantage of looking better than other people...
Your definition is skewed and it doesn't matter if other people agree with you or not because their definition is skewed to. There is the literal definition of p2w and the farcical bullshit your type tries to turn it into for your anti f2p agenda that frankly is sickening.
Either way, paying a sub and still having to pay, especially an additional sub, for basic functionality like inventory just reeks of cash grabbing.
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