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The Game We Want To Play

13

Comments

  • GeekyGeeky Member UncommonPosts: 451
    Jon Smedley is the one person who's name I actively try to avoid. He does not make things better.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Jyiiga said:

    lahnmir said:



    Sioned said:


    John Smedley is the right person for sure - to run your super excited and with possiblities racing mind into the best dump you could ever imagine.

    Sorry John but for most SWG players your name is branded with three letters (NGE) - and we dont forget.






    I think most former SWG players don't even know who Smedley is, or still have a grudge against him because somehow they decided blaming him for NGE. Only the bitter ones do not forget, the really bitter ones.



    For the more emotional stable, NGE was an effort to save a failing game and it didn't work out, nothing more, nothing less. Can't wait to play this game and don't care Smed is involved at all.



    /Cheers,

    Lahnmir



    Oh we remember all right and the NGE was not an effort to save a failing game. It was an effort to recreate the success of WOW instead of catering to their existing player base. They hoped to siphon away subs from WOW. In the process they gained few new subs and completely alienated their existing player base. It was a mistake. They admitted it was a mistake and I wish them luck with this new project. Ultimately though, many of us are going to be a hard if not impossible sell.
    SWG was most certainly a failing game, as failing is a matter of what the license owners expect it's profit margins to fall within. IF it weren't a failing game in that regard there would have been no reason to gut the entire thing and attempt to start over. The game was bleeding subs, not to mention NGE wasn't the first attempt to stop that loss.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • LunarhoundLunarhound Member UncommonPosts: 17
    edited November 2016
    Distopia said:

    Shaigh said:

    So far they haven't sold me on this game.

    While they have talked about things that works in the background they haven't really told me anything that speaks of what makes this game more fun to play than other games. They definitely haven't managed to show anything that looks exciting.

    Just because a game looks like it came from a great gaming era doesn't mean its mechanically as good as those games.



    This is one of my issues as well. The idea of a world with a procedurally generated history is intriguing, but what I want to know is how they're going to ensure that world is interesting and fun to play in. I'm not yet convinced that something like this will be as cool in execution as it looks on paper and, while I'm willing to drop 15 - 25 bucks to watch it develop and eventually find out, plenty of my friends aren't, and I don't blame them.
    This is the issue with procedural generation, you're stuck with no soul in the creation. Great if you want large areas, bad if you want to feel any sort of atmosphere, ambiance, or artistic integrity.
    Yeah, exactly. That's why "exploring" in games like Portal Knights is rarely any fun. The layout of a map and the dungeons in it might change, but it still feels like the same place. What's interesting about Hero's Song is that they aren't just procedurally generating land masses, they're also procedurally generating each world's history, which seems like an attempt to build a synthetic "soul" and that's where my questions lie. Besides generating specific, factual events, what does it do to make the world and its past feel alive? They've dropped some hints, but haven't really delved deeply into that, and while I don't believe we're at a place where a system like that can replace a world written by a human being, there are some interesting possibilities there. It'll be interesting to see how far they try to take it.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited November 2016
    Alpha 3 just dropped on Steam for indie Go backers ...Keys goin out
  • JyiigaJyiiga Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    SWG was most certainly a failing game, as failing is a matter of what the license owners expect it's profit margins to fall within. IF it weren't a failing game in that regard there would have been no reason to gut the entire thing and attempt to start over. The game was bleeding subs, not to mention NGE wasn't the first attempt to stop that loss.
    SWG was released in early 2003 and WOW was released in late 2004. The NGE was released in November of 2005 and you can see the effect it had. 



    For the era in which it was born (pre wow) it was competing with other famous and beloved titles. Post WOW everyone saw it as a failure, but they also started to see other games we all loved as failures as well. It took much of the industry a decade of trying to emulate WOW to finally figure out that it was a one time thing and would not happen (easily) again.

    All games decline slowly overtime and SWG was not in state of freefall until the NGE went into effect. 

    MassivelyOP has a good article about this here. Here are a few small fragments from the fallout.

    If Torres, Smedley, and MacIntyre thought that the NGE would blow over, they were wrong. The outcry from from the community was so great that it caught the attention of several mainstream press outlets such as the New York Times and the Washington Post, which gave affected players a stage to share how the NGE impacted them. “We just feel violated,” player Carolyn Hocke told the Times.

    “The customer losses were significant, and the blow to both the SWG and SOE brands was noticeable,” developer Gordon Walton said. Subscriber numbers fell from 250,000 to just above 100,000 by mid-2006, and while refunds for the Trials of Obi-Wan expansion were eventually given to those who asked, paid game time was not reimbursed.

    As if this wasn’t enough of a PR nightmare, one member of SWG’s team took a vocal stance against the NGE. Community Manager Diane “Tiggs” Migliaccio posted an epic rant against the patch on the forums, saying, “Thinking about all of this it seems to me that in SOE’s rush to get product to market in the first place they dropped the ball bad, and instead of making things better, they constantly seem to make the wrong decisions. Stop f’ing around with focus groups, and fire the marketing suits and hire some good, competent developers and people with vision.”

    Migliaccio was subsequently fired and escorted from the building. “Her abrupt departure made her a martyr among a playerbase whose already high hostility had just been turned up to 11,” blogger That Chip Guy noted. “Forum moderators from other SOE games had to be called in to help manage the message boards.”

    Eventually SOE went from defending the patch to repeatedly apologizing for it. In 2007, Smedley issued a clear mea culpa: “With the NGE, I’m sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn’t listen to the fans when we should have, and it’s not a mistake we’re going to make again.”

    The anger and distrust of SOE had sunk in so deep that such words couldn’t pacify some players. Even developers were targets years later. Designer Dan Rubenfield wrote a post in 2008admitting that the NGE was “a huge mistake” but still defending parts of it. His drubbing by the community showed that not all was forgiven. Linda Carlson said that even in 2013 — two years after SWG had shut down — SOE was still taking hate mail for the patch.



  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 766
    edited November 2016


    Not gonna lie. I know it'll be early, and I'm sure rough around the edges, but I cannot wait to play this today.



    Just like that one game Smedley showed off behind closed doors to gaming journalists and then those journalists shouted for months how it was better that the 2nd coming of Jesus?

    Remember when that game got canceled?


    sorry man, I'm not buying the snake oil again. . .
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,654
    Just got my Key and DLing.

    As exciting as the SWG discussion has been.. have fun.  I'm going to play!


    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • sayuusayuu Member RarePosts: 766

    voltt said:



    Kyleran said:


    Sigh, you folks still too easily buy into the hype, but it seems Hope Springs eternal.






    hype or not i like what i saw and read and its $15 dollars.



    damn. . .

    . . .I just saved 15 dollars.
  • LheiahLheiah Member UncommonPosts: 190
    You know, back in the day, this must have been like Babe Ruth going for a bunt.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    edited November 2016
    Jyiiga said:
    SWG was most certainly a failing game, as failing is a matter of what the license owners expect it's profit margins to fall within. IF it weren't a failing game in that regard there would have been no reason to gut the entire thing and attempt to start over. The game was bleeding subs, not to mention NGE wasn't the first attempt to stop that loss.
    SWG was released in early 2003 and WOW was released in late 2004. The NGE was released in November of 2005 and you can see the effect it had. 



    For the era in which it was born (pre wow) it was competing with other famous and beloved titles. Post WOW everyone saw it as a failure, but they also started to see other games we all loved as failures as well. It took much of the industry a decade of trying to emulate WOW to finally figure out that it was a one time thing and would not happen (easily) again.

    All games decline slowly overtime and SWG was not in state of freefall until the NGE went into effect. 

    MassivelyOP has a good article about this here. Here are a few small fragments from the fallout.

    If Torres, Smedley, and MacIntyre thought that the NGE would blow over, they were wrong. The outcry from from the community was so great that it caught the attention of several mainstream press outlets such as the New York Times and the Washington Post, which gave affected players a stage to share how the NGE impacted them. “We just feel violated,” player Carolyn Hocke told the Times.

    “The customer losses were significant, and the blow to both the SWG and SOE brands was noticeable,” developer Gordon Walton said. Subscriber numbers fell from 250,000 to just above 100,000 by mid-2006, and while refunds for the Trials of Obi-Wan expansion were eventually given to those who asked, paid game time was not reimbursed.

    As if this wasn’t enough of a PR nightmare, one member of SWG’s team took a vocal stance against the NGE. Community Manager Diane “Tiggs” Migliaccio posted an epic rant against the patch on the forums, saying, “Thinking about all of this it seems to me that in SOE’s rush to get product to market in the first place they dropped the ball bad, and instead of making things better, they constantly seem to make the wrong decisions. Stop f’ing around with focus groups, and fire the marketing suits and hire some good, competent developers and people with vision.”

    Migliaccio was subsequently fired and escorted from the building. “Her abrupt departure made her a martyr among a playerbase whose already high hostility had just been turned up to 11,” blogger That Chip Guy noted. “Forum moderators from other SOE games had to be called in to help manage the message boards.”

    Eventually SOE went from defending the patch to repeatedly apologizing for it. In 2007, Smedley issued a clear mea culpa: “With the NGE, I’m sorry about the mistake we made. We screwed up and didn’t listen to the fans when we should have, and it’s not a mistake we’re going to make again.”

    The anger and distrust of SOE had sunk in so deep that such words couldn’t pacify some players. Even developers were targets years later. Designer Dan Rubenfield wrote a post in 2008admitting that the NGE was “a huge mistake” but still defending parts of it. His drubbing by the community showed that not all was forgiven. Linda Carlson said that even in 2013 — two years after SWG had shut down — SOE was still taking hate mail for the patch.



    My point was failing in this sense is a matter of expected performance (whether we feel it was necessary is irrelevant).

    I certainly don't need a rehash of old SWG arguments or articles I saw go down first hand years ago, I know exactly why NGE happened, I know how it's secret was hidden from players, I know why Tiggs was fired, I know it's effect, I know how a certain segment of the community held on to those feelings, that doesn't make those feelings any less moot toward the point I provided. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • JyiigaJyiiga Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    edited November 2016
    Take your flawed point and file it in there along side Smeg's failed games, failed company and failed vision. I'm out.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Jyiiga said:
    Take your flawed point and file it in there along side Smeg's failed games, failed company and failed vision. I'm out.
    Alrighty then lol :)

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,654
    OK problem #1... the map is apparently non functional...
    kind of sucks when you have mutiple people and are trying to find each other.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Who could argue,the EQ series was legendary...for it's time.
    This looks like a pile of junk,it looks like a fast low budget rushed game to try and make money off very little effort.
    Industry leaders don't come running to gamer's for money,they secure their own risks and show they have confidence in themselves,this does nothing of the sort.
    Looks alone kills this for me,it could never be more than a 5/10.Y&es i loved many old games,my fave rpg of old is FF3 however if i had to choose where i spend my time,it is in better more modern games.

    Anyone can say they "look forward to the game" or " i can't wait" but in reality,we only have so much time to game and there are thousands better choices out there,so this to me would be a waste of money.Besides that,i already got shafted by Smedley for a LOT of money with his TCG and then watched him rip off gamer's with the EQNext prequel which was never going to be more than a cash grab to try and fund next,then watched as he released a ONE MAP ,one dimensional VERY weak effort in H1Z1.
    point being,i have watched a lot of FAST quick cash grabs from this guy,he does NOT put out quality anymore.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • donger56donger56 Member RarePosts: 443
    This isn't my kind of game anyway, but even if it was, I wouldn't give a dime to smed. The plague is more popular than that guy. He managed to ruin not only SWG, but the entire Everquest franchise and all of SoE along with it. The fact that a guy who spent 20 years in the industry couldn't even pull 100k in multiple crowdfunding attempts tells you what people think of him. They would have had a much better chance if they left his name out of it entirely. Crowdfunding is like the unemployment line for washed up developers.
  • vicentesoulvicentesoul Member UncommonPosts: 49
    Sure it looks good in graphics and mechanics, but i dont see the point of the game (whats the goal, besides having fun?)... if you can play with other 199 people why not making open dedicated servers and then you join and play with more people? i usually play games alone because my friends dont want to "waste" money on experimental things xd
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,054
    You guys and the hating of Smed. Let me reverse all SWG and NGE crap. Smed and crew saw WoW change the entire MMO landscape and were the only ones brave enough to take the gamble and try to radically improve and change their game. Of course it is extremely easy to use the mighty "Power of Hindsight" and reversively call it completely obvious that it wouldn't work out but nobody knew. SWG was bleeding subs and when NGE released it bled harder, they made a mistake, they were also the only ones with an active stance, trying to actually change and improve things. The decline in subs in the 5 months before NGE was quite steep, of course they were trying to change that.

    They tried, they failed, get over it.

    Also, Hero's Song, yeah baby, awesome!

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,654
    I think you guys need to make a forum thread to discuss your NGE feelings.  

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,178
    The saddest thing in that graph @Distopia put up is how high Warhammer online went to before it dropped like a rock.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Muke said:

    CrazKanuk said:


    Sioned said:

    John Smedley is the right person for sure - to run your super excited and with possiblities racing mind into the best dump you could ever imagine.

    Sorry John but for most SWG players your name is branded with three letters (NGE) - and we dont forget.



    I agree, kill the messenger. They're always the ones making all the decisions. 



    Like he didn't have anything to do with the b***awful running of the SWG game and SOE in general. He promised new content, showed it on Fanfest, never materialized ingame. In fact, at that time they were developing a secret side project/overhaul of SWG which would kill off 99% of the community within 2 months after it's release. Announced 2 weeks prior to release and rendering a recently released paid expansion useless.

    JS is very good at selling hot air, he promises the world, yet doesn't deliver, instead, he leaves his customers with a very bad taste.

    You talk about killing the messenger, hundreds of thousands of disgruntled players can't be all wrong, right?

    I'm not saying that Smedley is a saint and had nothing to do with what transpired, but he doesn't own it. Fuck, Raph Koster said once that he was responsible for mismanaging the budget and scope of the game!!!! Yet where's Raph? Oh yeah!! He's revered by all and working on Crowfall which everyone seems to be falling all over themselves over. Raph was the CREATIVE DIRECTOR!!! Love him, though. I'm sure he had NOTHING to do with the failures of the game. 

    I'm just saying, people seem to give waaaaaaaaay too much credit to Smedley for SWG. There were a plethora of fuck-ups along the way and there were a trail of people responsible for those fuck-ups. I'm sure that Smed took part in that, but he's not the lone person responsible for it. However, that's why I gave him some credit, for being the fall guy. That's what a good CEO is supposed to do, right? Oh Captain, my Captain! Then go down with the ship? Leave everyone else with a sparkling clean record. Whether it was intentional or not, that's what he did, because nobody else seems to have taken any flak for it, despite admitting to being a contributing factor to the failure of the game. It's actually quite remarkable. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    kitarad said:
    The saddest thing in that graph @Distopia put up is how high Warhammer online went to before it dropped like a rock.
    I didn't post the graph :P.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    What is this fascination with perma-death?  Lose a couple high level characters and see how you like it.  Might seem like a cool idea at first, but you will quickly tire of it.  All perma death games are "Dead soon after release" because once you experience loss of a lot of time in a charcter you won't want to do it again.

    Dumbest idea every introduced for a game by a huge margin.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    CrazKanuk said:
    Muke said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Sioned said:
    John Smedley is the right person for sure - to run your super excited and with possiblities racing mind into the best dump you could ever imagine.

    Sorry John but for most SWG players your name is branded with three letters (NGE) - and we dont forget.

    I agree, kill the messenger. They're always the ones making all the decisions. 
    Like he didn't have anything to do with the b***awful running of the SWG game and SOE in general. He promised new content, showed it on Fanfest, never materialized ingame. In fact, at that time they were developing a secret side project/overhaul of SWG which would kill off 99% of the community within 2 months after it's release. Announced 2 weeks prior to release and rendering a recently released paid expansion useless.

    JS is very good at selling hot air, he promises the world, yet doesn't deliver, instead, he leaves his customers with a very bad taste.

    You talk about killing the messenger, hundreds of thousands of disgruntled players can't be all wrong, right?
    I'm not saying that Smedley is a saint and had nothing to do with what transpired, but he doesn't own it. Fuck, Raph Koster said once that he was responsible for mismanaging the budget and scope of the game!!!! Yet where's Raph? Oh yeah!! He's revered by all and working on Crowfall which everyone seems to be falling all over themselves over. Raph was the CREATIVE DIRECTOR!!! Love him, though. I'm sure he had NOTHING to do with the failures of the game. 

    I'm just saying, people seem to give waaaaaaaaay too much credit to Smedley for SWG. There were a plethora of fuck-ups along the way and there were a trail of people responsible for those fuck-ups. I'm sure that Smed took part in that, but he's not the lone person responsible for it. However, that's why I gave him some credit, for being the fall guy. That's what a good CEO is supposed to do, right? Oh Captain, my Captain! Then go down with the ship? Leave everyone else with a sparkling clean record. Whether it was intentional or not, that's what he did, because nobody else seems to have taken any flak for it, despite admitting to being a contributing factor to the failure of the game. It's actually quite remarkable. 
    That is just so wrong.  I worked in the same building, ate lunch sometimes with SOE employees.  The SWG disaster was entirely Smedley's fault.  The SWG team had no idea what the other team Smedley put together was working on until the week NGE went live.  The demise of SWG was entirely of Smedley's implementation.  He put the NGE team together, he told them what he wanted them to do.  

    So yes, Smedley is a time bomb waiting to happen with whatever he is involved with.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,654
    edited November 2016
    Ozmodan said:
    What is this fascination with perma-death?  Lose a couple high level characters and see how you like it.  Might seem like a cool idea at first, but you will quickly tire of it.  All perma death games are "Dead soon after release" because once you experience loss of a lot of time in a charcter you won't want to do it again.

    Dumbest idea every introduced for a game by a huge margin.
    Not so sure I agree.   I think it could be interesting is properly applied.  One of the reasons most Open World PvP games turn into Murdersim is because there is really no repercussion for the anti-social behavior.

    Hard to properly implement.. and yet to be done...  but I think it's an interesting mechanism



    Edit to add:  As far as Hero's Song, they have hinted that this will be a toggle at launch, so if you don;t like it you turn it off.  Same with PvP and friendly fire.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    edited November 2016
    Ozmodan said:

    That is just so wrong.  I worked in the same building, ate lunch sometimes with SOE employees.  The SWG disaster was entirely Smedley's fault.  The SWG team had no idea what the other team Smedley put together was working on until the week NGE went live.  The demise of SWG was entirely of Smedley's implementation.  He put the NGE team together, he told them what he wanted them to do.  

    So yes, Smedley is a time bomb waiting to happen with whatever he is involved with.
    No one said he didn't have a hand in it, SOE's team certainly designed the new additions as well as gutted the product, just as they did with CU. Yet they weren't necessarily guiding the boat that was SWG, they couldn't do anything the way they wanted, without LA's approval. LA was the publisher as well as housed the producers of the game, their word was law in regard to SWG, not Smeds... As they say the buck stops at the top, that was LA, not SOE.

    It wasn't Smed or anyone else at SOE coming out and saying the game was designed wrong, was too hard, required too much reading Etc... That was again LA.. It also wasn't SOE who thought their IP (as it wasn't theirs) Star Wars should be doing as good as or better than WOW, again LA... I don't care who you ate with, they obviously weren't telling you the whole deal of the management of that game. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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