Why No Sandboxes?

Konfess · November 2016

Just read this comment over on Steam for Hero's Song. I feel it answers the question.

CrAnKeD wrote, "The main problems I have with the game now:

- Map tile size is WAY too big making it difficult to find things on the map

- Lack of content (yes I know the stage the game is in)

When I say lack of content, I mean there is literally nothing to do in this game but walk around killing things, trying the different classes and bug testing. I said in the forums a week ago when they were talking about going to EA from alpha that they were going to end up getting hammered by reviewers because there is really nothing to this game at the moment and as of this writing, they are labeled as "mixed"."

Fans of sandbox say that players make the content. I think by this they mean they can prey on leveling PvE players. Maybe this writer is an achiever and wants defined goals. I always said that sandbox games have undefined goals (quests). Like go forth and acquire skills and levels. Look at Minecraft's achievements for a list of undefined quests.

We could make a sandbox, with typical UI controls. But a portion of the gaming community, mainly player new to gaming, will need a list of directions on what and how to do things.

My question to y'all, what do you expect to do in a sandbox game? Be specific, do just say stuff or things that resemble stuff. I'm working on a Three Faction World Conquest game. A new player starts out in a Farming Village tutorial map. There learn how to choose profession in a dynamic class building system. They learn Combat, Looting, Harvesting, Crafting, Healing, Buffing, and Structures. Then they are sent out into the world to work for their faction. Their first task is to go to a location and defend a forward base. Once there they must determine that state of the base. Does it need to be built, repaired, or manned and defended. Waves of attackers will eventually come. Once sufficient levels have been gained, players will be retasked. Now they will hunt down the attackers, find and destroy their camps and bases. After this players should be ready to acquire advanced professions and start specializing as Combat, Crafters, Support or Hybrid professions. Hybrid professions will be less than pure Combat, Crafters, or Support professions.

I was thinking I would assign new elite professional players to building new player cities and giving XP based on level of progress. In this phase players would come into contact with existing guild or form new ones. Once they maxed their professions and moved to end game content, they would venture forth to establish player run cities and bases. And continue the battle. Land and citizen size would determine titles and ranks of players.

Death would be meet with XP loss or penalties. Healers and or Buffs would be vital to survival and continued advancement.

cameltosis · November 2016

Sandboxes are about interconnected systems.
Themeparks are about content

In a themepark, the content comes first - the IP, the worlds, the quests, the storylines etc - then systems are built to support that content.

In a sandbox, the systems come first - classes, leveling, housing, crafting, alliances, pvp etc - and then the players use those systems to "create content".

As a sandbox has no set direction, the systems in place need to support organic gameplay. The fighters need combat classes and things to kill. The explorers need vast worlds to explore. The socialisers need social systems in place so they can meet one another. Creative types need cosmetic systems, housing, crafting systems.

Each of these systems then needs to work well with one another. So, if you want a great crafting system, you need a reason to craft, usually to create items to sell. If you want to sell items, there needs to be a consistent market. That means people need a reason to buy items, so items must be useful to others on a regular basis. This leads us to having crafted items being best in game, for items to degrade and need replacing etc.

So, sandboxes, whilst theoretically cheaper to make (as you don't need millions of quests), are actually harder to make because the systems are more complicated. If you get the balance wrong, it can upset the entire ecosystem of the game. By making the systems come first, you are shifting the design process away from your typical creative types and towards your developer types. Its the old creative vs logic argument - most people are one or the other.

In a themepark, it doesn't matter too much if the systems are unbalanced. It doesn't matter if there is no economy for crafters, because the game encourages you to craft anyway via achievements, titles, progress bars and quests. It doesn't matter if your class is underpowered, because questing is dead easy so you can still do it.

So, if you are thinking of designing or building a sandbox game, don't approach it like a checklist of features you need to be considered a sandbox. Instead, change your mindset. Ask a ton of people what activities they most enjoy in games and what they least enjoy, then think about systems that would allow those players to do the things they like and avoid the things they don't like. Then start thinking of how to link everything together.

I'll start.

I'm a combat-orientated player.
I enjoy killing things.
I enjoy optimising my killing - how many things can I kill at once? I constantly strive to get better at killing stuff
I enjoy hunting down epic things to kill, partly for aesthetics, partly for the challenge.
I enjoy killing other real world people
I enjoy progression through killing
I like it when my actions in game have a lasting impact.

I dislike stories in games
I dislike unbalanced games

So, taking those things, I would come up with the following systems

Combat Classes - multiple combat classes so that I can kill stuff in a variety of ways
Deep combat system - allows for long learning curve, hard-to-master type gameplay
Horizontal progression - allows players to progress and specialise without unbalancing combat. Also ensures all content is relevant
World PvP (preferably with some sort of consent being required)
Territory Control
Quests not tied to progression - they are there for story only
3+ factions

These systems would mean that when I was dropped into the sandbox, I could go off and play the way I wanted to, because the systems support my style of gameplay. I'd go out, kill stuff and unlock new skills. It would take me time to learn everything and really push myself. I could kill npcs to take territory, and I could pvp when flagged. However, other factions can do the same, resulting in an ever shifting landscape.

These are obviously only systems to support one style of play. A decent sandbox will support many different types of play and try to balance everything. If you spoke to an explorer, the whole territory control thing probably wouldn't work, so you'd want to revise the system so that it pleases me, but doesn't restrict where the explorer can go. Likewise, speak to a crafter and they'd hate any sort of non-consensual pvp, so you'd want to make sure that pvp was entirely consensual so that crafters don't get ganked.

Speak to enough people and themes will start to come out. You'll identify common systems and common areas of enjoyment so your game will slowly start to come together. Some systems will clash, so you'll then need to make a design decision on which way to go.

You should still have a theme or a core feature that you focus on. For example, SWG had the Galactic Civil War, so many of the systems were designed to support that theme. But, being a sandbox, you could completely ignore it if you wanted. You're going for a 3-way territory control focused game, so many of your systems will be set up to support that, you just need to ensure that many different types of gameplay are supported but also fit in with the theme. So, maybe you have social classes (like entertainers, musicians etc) that increase recovery rates in towns under attack, that speed up construction time etc. It will allow social players to be social, whilst also giving them a valid reason for doing so and fitting in with the theme of the game.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

you are comparing your experience with Heros Song with an entire genre of which you clearly by your implicet admission do not have much experience in.

I am a sandbox fan and yet I have no intrest in Heros Song..how can that be?

iixviiiix · November 2016

IF people like sandbox , they play simulation game or game like minecraft , those true sandbox with multiplayer . Because they don't want other to mess they creation .

Most MMORPG players don't want sandbox , they want themepark with better RPG elements ( more roles to play)

Lord.Bachus · November 2016

As an average Joe, i dont see sandbox and themepark as mutuall exclusive... my favorite game deffinately would have influences of both... there is one thing i deem important in MMO design and thats freedom of choice on every level, like class design, world design...

my ideal world would definately have many many epic quests and a whole load of tasks, but doing them would definately have consequences... so stating a sandbox game is not story based is just plane wrong... but people get to make choice which and wether to do story based content at all... but having an empty shell world witouth pre generated stories and content would not work for a roleplay game...

Kyleran · November 2016

cameltosis said:

I enjoy killing other real world people

Perhaps someone needs to call the authorities?

Kyleran · November 2016

SEANMCAD said:

you are comparing your experience with Heros Song with an entire genre of which you clearly by your implicet admission do not have much experience in.

I am a sandbox fan and yet I have no intrest in Heros Song..how can that be?

Because you really only enjoy crafting while sandbox style worlds not so much?

cameltosis · November 2016

Lord.Bachus said:

As an average Joe, i dont see sandbox and themepark as mutuall exclusive... my favorite game deffinately would have influences of both... there is one thing i deem important in MMO design and thats freedom of choice on every level, like class design, world design...

my ideal world would definately have many many epic quests and a whole load of tasks, but doing them would definately have consequences... so stating a sandbox game is not story based is just plane wrong... but people get to make choice which and wether to do story based content at all... but having an empty shell world witouth pre generated stories and content would not work for a roleplay game...

I have to strongly disagree with your statements.

A sandbox, by its very definition, cannot be story based. If the developers have written stories into the game and those stories are the main focus of the game, then it is a themepark. If the developers are guiding you through content, then you're on the rollercoaster they've designed and thus in a themepark.

I also disagree that a sandbox without pre-generated stories would not work for a roleplay game. In my experiences, the stronger the stories, the less roleplay there is. I cannot roleplay a sneaky rogue if the story is forcing me to be the bold hero. I cannot roleplay the bad guy if the story forces me to save the innocent all the time.

I've only played one sandbox MMO myself, SWG, but that had by far the best roleplaying in the game. There was minimal stories in the game - basically just one quest chain for rebels and one for imperials - and yet roleplay thrived. Why? Because the systems in the game were set up to allow you to play the game the way you wanted to play it. Players were allowed to define their own roles, resulting in tons of different roleplaying opportunities.

The only part of your post I'll agree with is that my perfect MMO would contain the best of both sandbox and themepark features. This is what most people here refer to as a sandpark. Most people seem to agree that it would be mostly sandbox, but would still contain quests (as they are the best way to tell a story) and dungeons and raids (because this is the best way to create challenging content).

Kyleran · November 2016

I believe one defining difference between theme parks is sandbox style games can provide more "opportunities" for interactions between players.

You can have dungeons and raids, but if you lock them away in an uninterruptible instance its becoming more theme park like.

A title such as EVE provides for player interaction in almost every activity, both postively and more frequently negatively.

Theme parks let you enjoy the ride in a bubble, no one interrupts your experience.

Sandboxes may have someone come along to help you build your castle, but more often they'll try to just kick it down.

Then it becomes up to you to find ways to stomp their face or protect the castle in some creative way.

SavageHorizon · November 2016

Wurm Online

Scorchien · November 2016

I expect UO

Scot · November 2016

One answer is all you need. The concept of sandbox lies outside mainstream gaming or so we are led to believe. That's the mantra, Day Z selling a million copies does not change that.

It is all about perception, what styles of gameplay will work in a new game being created. Sandbox is outside mainstream so fails the recognition test: Have you ever played a good driving or shooter game?...Yup. Have you ever played a good sandbox MMO...what's a sandbox?

The second test is one of familiarity, if it is like another sort of gameplay you like then you may well decided to play it. Sandbox is unique, no cigar. You might suggest elements of MMOs like crafting, that's about it.

So it is perceived not to sell, that means few games will be produced with sandbox at the core.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Kyleran said:

SEANMCAD said:

you are comparing your experience with Heros Song with an entire genre of which you clearly by your implicet admission do not have much experience in.

I am a sandbox fan and yet I have no intrest in Heros Song..how can that be?

Because you really only enjoy crafting while sandbox style worlds not so much?

or is it because I like to judge an entire genre by selecting a bad sandbox?

could it be, and this is just a stretch, that maybe the problem with Heros Song not having any content doesnt have dick to do with it being a sandbox?

If you find yourself saying 'this sandbox sucks there is only a few types of mobs to kill' then you have no fucking clue what your talking about because your stuck in a box that only contains combat

Theocritus · November 2016

The games that people keep suggesting as saneboxes are garbage though...Wurm Online and Uo? Really? Most of us are bored to tears with quest driven themeparks, but we just arent given much of an alternative from teh sandbox sector.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Theocritus said:

The games that people keep suggesting as saneboxes are garbage though...Wurm Online and Uo? Really? Most of us are bored to tears with quest driven themeparks, but we just arent given much of an alternative from teh sandbox sector.

and that is fine if you dont like them but because you do not like them doesnt mean you can suggest Heros Song is an exmaple of all sandbox games because people who like sandboxes find the game dull.

Its rather simple

1. you dont judge an entire genre from one game
2. you dont judge and entire genre from one game when you clearly dont have much experience in said genre
3. you learn the ability to understand the difference between a lack of features in a game and that of an entire genre
4. if you understand sandbox then you know 'not enough mobs to kill' is a hysterical statement in of itself because it clearly shows your still focused on games that only have mob killing as the only thing to do.
5. the games that are considered by Sandbox fans to be good actually being not good in your view or even as a fact has NOTHING to do with my point. you might as well had said 'because the Queens hat is red'

Archlyte · November 2016

Not too long ago, A friend of mine whom I play games with frequently joined me in a sandbox game. The game has some quests and some spontaneous events in addition to a big world. My friend quit soon after because he felt there was not enough content. This is a person who started years ago in the genre playing EQ1, SWG etc.

Theme Park games have had the effect of making people choice averse, and have reduced the threshold of vertigo (the feeling of not knowing what to do in a game because the path isn't being shown to you) so that some players may feel that it is too much work to make their own way.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Archlyte said:

Not too long ago, A friend of mine whom I play games with frequently joined me in a sandbox game. The game has some quests and some spontaneous events in addition to a big world. My friend quit soon after because he felt there was not enough content. This is a person who started years ago in the genre playing EQ1, SWG etc.

Theme Park games have had the effect of making people choice averse, and have reduced the threshold of vertigo (the feeling of not knowing what to do in a game because the path isn't being shown to you) so that some players may feel that it is too much work to make their own way.

I have noticed people define 'content' differently.

I played EQ2 and I found it boring even though I kept playing. I consider being able to build my own farm, home, raise horses, mine for iron, build a boat to be CONTENT (and building those items to be more than just an insta-click). others do not. others are looking for quests. I personally think its because its what they are used to and anything outside of that makes their brain hurt but that is my opinion I dont know if its fact.

So does Wurm have more content then EQ2? in my mind it does. in others minds it does not. Because what I see as content, they do not.

but one thing is for sure. i would never create a thread asking about an entire genre of games and use only one game as an example

SlyLoK · November 2016

UO Trammel like is what would satisfy my sandbox itch.

PvP isnt something I feel makes a game a sandbox.. In fact IMO I believe PvP is a large part of why the genre just doesnt grow.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

SlyLoK said:

UO Trammel like is what would satisfy my sandbox itch.

PvP isnt something I feel makes a game a sandbox.. In fact IMO I believe PvP is a large part of why the genre just doesnt grow.

agreed.

the number 1 problem with 'sandbox' is very few 'sandbox' developers try to avoid encouraging sociopath communities. I think the real reason is because its easier then programming AI

Kyleran · November 2016

SEANMCAD said:

Archlyte said:

Not too long ago, A friend of mine whom I play games with frequently joined me in a sandbox game. The game has some quests and some spontaneous events in addition to a big world. My friend quit soon after because he felt there was not enough content. This is a person who started years ago in the genre playing EQ1, SWG etc.

Theme Park games have had the effect of making people choice averse, and have reduced the threshold of vertigo (the feeling of not knowing what to do in a game because the path isn't being shown to you) so that some players may feel that it is too much work to make their own way.

I have noticed people define 'content' differently.

I played EQ2 and I found it boring even though I kept playing. I consider being able to build my own farm, home, raise horses, mine for iron, build a boat to be CONTENT (and building those items to be more than just an insta-click). others do not. others are looking for quests. I personally think its because its what they are used to and anything outside of that makes their brain hurt but that is my opinion I dont know if its fact.

So does Wurm have more content then EQ2? in my mind it does. in others minds it does not. Because what I see as content, they do not.

but one thing is for sure. i would never create a thread asking about an entire genre of games and use only one game as an example

The OPs title and post is a bit confusing, and it's lead the conversation between everyone down a couple of different paths.

I think what the OP is trying to say is too often, and as evidenced by one recent title HS, sandbox style games try to release with too little content, and hence they fail.

DFO was often criticized at launch as being nothing more than a combat simulator with too little non-combat activities for players to really focus on in order to qualify as a sandbox.

I'd say this would apply to any style game, and with all of the recent KS's and indie titles releasing with too little content is a common phenomenon.

So the OP quickly turns his conversation to his real point, what sort of content do people who play Sandbox style MMO's want to see in their games, as he's trying to design his own.

To that there's a bit of an easy answer, an analysis of UO, SWG, EVE, WURM, DFO and other famous titles would quickly give evidence of mechanics and content people favored, as well as good examples of what didn't work so well.

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Kyleran said:

SEANMCAD said:

Archlyte said:

Not too long ago, A friend of mine whom I play games with frequently joined me in a sandbox game. The game has some quests and some spontaneous events in addition to a big world. My friend quit soon after because he felt there was not enough content. This is a person who started years ago in the genre playing EQ1, SWG etc.

Theme Park games have had the effect of making people choice averse, and have reduced the threshold of vertigo (the feeling of not knowing what to do in a game because the path isn't being shown to you) so that some players may feel that it is too much work to make their own way.

I have noticed people define 'content' differently.

I played EQ2 and I found it boring even though I kept playing. I consider being able to build my own farm, home, raise horses, mine for iron, build a boat to be CONTENT (and building those items to be more than just an insta-click). others do not. others are looking for quests. I personally think its because its what they are used to and anything outside of that makes their brain hurt but that is my opinion I dont know if its fact.

So does Wurm have more content then EQ2? in my mind it does. in others minds it does not. Because what I see as content, they do not.

but one thing is for sure. i would never create a thread asking about an entire genre of games and use only one game as an example

The OPs title and post is a bit confusing, and it's lead the conversation between everyone down a couple of different paths.

I think what the OP is trying to say is too often, and as evidenced by one recent title HS, sandbox style games try to release with too little content, and hence they fail.

DFO was often criticized at launch as being nothing more than a combat simulator with too little non-combat activities for players to really focus on in order to qualify as a sandbox.

I'd say this would apply to any style game, and with all of the recent KS's and indie titles releasing with too little content is a common phenomenon.

So the OP quickly turns his conversation to his real point, what sort of content do people who play Sandbox style MMO's want to see in their games, as he's trying to design his own.

To that there's a bit of an easy answer, an analysis of UO, SWG, EVE, WURM, DFO and other famous titles would quickly give evidence of mechanics and content people favored, as well as good examples of what didn't work so well.

perhaps. I dont know

I will say that I found DFO to be fantastic. I loved that game and I wonder how much of their failure had to with the Greek economy.
never the less using DFO as an example I felt like it had about as much content as EQ2 did! I mean you talk about combat simulator well what does one do in EQ2? well quest mob fight, read how many of what to kill in the quest then go do it, shut the mind off and go into a daze, then turn in the quest and pick up a new one, do the same.
crafting?....lol..yeah whatever.

so when people say content I wish I had an understanding of specifically what they are looking for. quests? really?

Loke666 · November 2016

In a sandbox you either explore and find content by yourself or you create said content. Themeparks are scripted and will tell you where you need to go next.

And yes, there is a large group of people that enjoy constantly being told exactly what to do at all times, I don't think that group is as large as some people here believe and even if it is you can make sandboxes where other players (like kings, nobles and guildleaders tell you what to do, this isn't really the problem.

The reason sandboxes rarely work for MMOs is that so few good are made (Eve is an exception). Most MMO sandboxes focus on very chaotic FFA PvP with full loot which is rather disliked with the average gamer, even FPS and Mobas rarely have FFA modes and if they have those are unpopular.

Add a rather large powergap between new and old players (something that work fine in PvE but not in PvP) and a far lower budget then the average themepark (for some reason do many sandbox devs believe that it is cheaper to make a sandbox but scripted content is far easier to make) and you have the solution to why most sandboxes fail so miserably.

You can certainly make a good MMO sandbox but you need a good experienced team, a good budget and good ideas for game mechanics. Just like a themepark BTW, they also fail if they don't have those 3 things even if some done acceptable in the past without any new good ideas for game mechanics (the standard EQ/Wow mechanics worked better then UOs for the majority of players) but that train have left as well.

Lienhart · November 2016

Because it only attracts neckbeards, I'm sorry.

I used to really love playing Eve Online, and many MMOs that were "hardcore". I haven't touched an MMO that isn't a theme box for around 8 years. A friend of a friend convinced us to try BDO (sandboxy). After I spent a few hours in character creation, I lasted 2 hours in game and quit.

I spend 8 hours a day using my brain to solve complicated problems and identify patterns. The last thing I want to do is to wreck my brain some more when I come home. I want to go on auto pilot and I'm sure the vast majoity feel the same way (hence why theme parks are so popular).

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Lienhart said:

Because it only attracts neckbeards, I'm sorry.
...

thats not really an insult but it supports my theory

Konfess · November 2016

I realize that Hero's Song is in Early Access (EA), and that many systems are still non-functioning. Players are able to create and host their own single player or multiplayer worlds. The major choice in world creation is size (small, medium, & large). People are selecting large and finding a world too large to safely explore, or finding anything useful. I recommend a small world for single players.

The next complaint is nothing to do but fight mobs. The crafting and inventory systems are not 100% functional yet, fine. But in games like Grand Theft Auto (GTA) and Skyrim, isn't killing mobs the main activity? Even in fully functional theme parks, most quest are kill 10 "X named" mobs.

I am a fan of sandbox. My original question is what do y'all as sandbox players expect or want to do in a sandbox? Here is my list.

Harvest resources, wood, plants, fibers, flowers, fruits, nuts, vegetables, leather, meat, bone, stones, minerals, and ores.
Process harvested and looted material into crafting materials, goods, or gear.
If I have a class I expect to enter the world with basic gear that needs to be upgraded or replaced with better gear.
Example as a Warrior I should start the game with the clothes on my back and maybe my bare hands.
So a unarmed Warrior might kill 10 rodents and loot meat, scraps of leather, and bones. Other small mobs like rabbits, squirrels, birds, cats, dogs, and goats can be hunted and harvested.
The bone could be crafted into a knife for fighting or skinning. Or a spear tip and attacked by strips of scrap leather to a wooden pole to craft a spear.
Now larger animals can be hunted, like deer, elk, antelope, sheep, donkey, boar, bison, and water buffalo.
Large sheets of leather can be harvested and processed into gear and armour.
Larger bones can be crafted into larger and better weapons or harvesting tools.

I think this has all been seen before in games like Minecraft, Rust, DayZ, 7 Days to Die, and H1Z1. I have outlined PvE and PvP combat, looting, harvesting, and crafting. I also expect there to be trade. What more than the listed six systems can we expect in a sandbox?

SEANMCAD · November 2016

Konfess said:

... But in games like Grand Theft Auto (GTA) and Skyrim, isn't killing mobs the main activity? Even in fully functional theme parks, most quest are kill 10 "X named" mobs.

I am not commenting out everything you said because I am ignoring it but rather because I want to highlight this point.

In my view and in the view shared by others (not sure if its a lot though) GTA is NOT a sandbox game. Skyrim is a little more so but not much.

They are Traditionally Narrative based game titles that try to be open world. Open world and sandbox are not exclusively the same thing.

so I really think a failure to understand Sandbox in addition to making an entire conversation about and entire genre based on one game is faulty.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV