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Aradune... I'm impressed
Grymlok
Member Posts: 8
Brad, I know you get a *ton* of brown-noser posts so I'll keep this brief. Over the past week I started to really follow Vanguard again, and I'm truly blown away by your level of community involvement.
Next to Rich Garriott, you're the Grandaddy of MMO's (and lets face it, Great-Grandpa is getting a little senile... Tabula Rasa symbol languages? yikes) and the fact that you communicate with your customers *more* than you did in your pre-celeb days is really, really impressive. You really have your ear to the pulse of the community, and I think it's going to show in Vanguard's gameplay.
Hats off to you, my friend. You're really blowing a lot of us away and the game's not even released.
Grymlok
Comments
That’s the truth.
Regardless of the *brown snout* I’m in total agreement.
http://www.massivelyonlinegamer.com iTunes
Level of community involvement as in how?
Do the devsw listen to most of the feedback on the beta forums, not for the most part.
Dev responses = "we might implement this later" "we are working on it" "no thats not going to change" "working as intended"
Face it, most of the community feedback on a certain beta forum is negative at best.
I dont mean to sound that harsh, but improvement over these last few months has been minor.
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
That is some funny stuff. fanbois deserve no concideration.
I've seen Brad say that the Vanguard team isn't trying to be all things to all people, and I think that's a smart decision. The unavoidable result is that some people won't be satisfied with some of Vanguard's design choices, and unhappy people tend to post and complain more than contented testers (who are probably testing the game more rather than posting).
The reason why many of us have high hopes for Vanguard is because Brad and his team have made some bold choices (no instances
Grym
That is some funny stuff. fanbois deserve no concideration.
I’m not a
fanboi, miss the point. If he is a beta tester, he signed an
agreement, and now is breaking it, so when he signed it lied to
sigil. If he lied to sigil he may be lying us, therefore we cannot believe what
he say.
You have to consider as well that those who break an nda are no longer
interested in the game.
Are the reports somewhat disturbing? Yes. I’m worried, but still we don’t know
when sigil will release the game, according brad, the beta 2.5 is like
Everquest beta 1, so if we are to believe him, there is still a lot of time for
release.
Yeah, I’m worried, I don’t believe everything the nda breakers say, but I’m
sure that even if most what they say is false, at least a part is true.
Let's face it, Vanguard is not for everyone.
It's been designed to appeal to core players, and even within this category there are different expectations about the game.
Therefore there will be disappointement even within the core players.
Vanguard has not middle ground, almost all the features are quite extreme and uncompromising, so either people like them or hate them.
I for once want to praise the bravery of Sigil, which with its expertise could have easily developed a blockbuster like WoW or EQ2, instead they choose the hard path and go instead for a niche of players which at the moment are looking to settle down and find a game that suits their needs.
Although this niche is well below the big numbers of WoW, it is still a big portion of the player base, therefore, if Sigil comes up with the game we all are expecting, Vanguard will be very profitable.
I do expect lots of criticism when Vanguard will be released, because for the WoW people this kind of game is unconceiveable, and to them, it might look obsolete and pointless.
For the core players though, this could be what they ve been waiting for ages.
I started playing mmorpg´s with UO, i played EQ, AO, SWG, EQ2, WoW, does that make me a core player?
A large segment of WoW players are former UO/AO/EQ players, are they core players aswell or did they magicly stoped beeing core players since they strated playing WoW?
Do you mean brad fans, sigil fans, verdant fans? like Turbine assumed dnd fans would buy DnDO just because of the brand, look where that got them, deserted servers and a minuscule player base.
Is vanguard supposed to be a "niche" game? niche like DnDO? niche like EvE?
This whole core or not core argument is completly pointless, Vanguard will succeed or not based solely on it merits, saying that its targeting a niche market is just anexcuse for porly developed game systems not beeing able to atract a large audience.
I reserve commenting on the current state of the game in detail due to the fact that it still looks like an early alpha and proly will have to receive huge ammounts of work and beta testing even before theres a public beta (stress test).
When the game has gone gold, then i´ll be ready to form a personal opinion if i should buy the game or not, untill then, Sigil should struggle to make the game "Fun" instead of a mindless grind with 1990 style gameplay. And they should stop relying on these supposed "core" players, because customers are not stupid, and they are not out to waste their money, they will judge the game on how it plays at launch and not on how it should play in 2 years time when everything that was promissed would finaly be implemented.
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
i agree 100% but what makes you think vanguard is going to release without all the stuff they are promising will be in there at launch?
because it is not in there yet? in beta ? lol have patience.... the game isn't out yet, not everything is in beta yet and sigil has said they have no intention of releasing the game until it is ready, witch has been beaten into the ground by brad and other Dev's.
they are really open and honest about what will make it by launch and what will not, but accusing them of not implementing everything they promised because it is not in there yet, in early stages of beta is kinda stupid IMHO.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Thats why i sincerely hope sigil manages to bring out a great and fun product right off the launch. Because there will be many who will want nothing but to point out any problems it has, like the recent forum exchange between brad and a former employee.
I may have sounded harsher than i meant to be, but it can be frustrating to beta test a game still in developement and not have acess to all those cool features that will be in the final product ^^
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
Kem0sabe I agree that it is difficult giving an exact meaning of what core players means.
In my view a core player is someone who likes the games to be a bit more extreme.
Death penalties, camping, complicated crafting, slow advancement, more interdependance with other players, all things that are considered boring by the average player.
You can call it old school if you like, so you are maybe right that core players are "Brad fans", people who liked EQ1, AC, UO, and DAOC.
I know it is difficult to believe there is this kind of people around, but trust me, there are quite a lot of them, after all there are still around 350-400k people who are playing EQ, probably there is a reason for that.
Having said that, Vanguard won't be as extreme as EQ1, which was an experiment, and all the features were way over the top, not because they were intended, but because of inexperience.
Brad still wants to go for the EQ formula, but he knows that the amount of time sinking present in EQ1 is not acceptable anymore, not even from what i consider a core players.
I like my games to be extreme and more challenging, but camping a named for 8 hours or things on this line won't work anymore.
The times of Evercamp are over forever, but I think Brad knows that.
That's why I think Vanguard might appeal quite a large number of players (not just core), because I believe that the EQ formula was quite interesting, what ruin it for me was the amount of time you were sitting on your arse doing nothing.
Regarding your worries about false promises, believe me, if features are not ready, they are not going in, and the game will be launched when all the features promised are ready and well tested.
So I invite you to keep testing the game and help Sigil make Vanguard the game you want, instead of giving up already, it is still in early beta after all.
cant argue with that, but what forum exchange are you referring to? if it isn't on the beta forums can you please link me?
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I've been in a lot of beta's and almost NONE of them had the features they announced before the game was released. The "it's only beta, they are running in debug mode" is just a silly (in regards to lag/etc).
I am not in beta for Vanguard so have no insight for it but assuming that it will have all the features Brad has talked about is crazy. Saying that it's beta and thats why is just as crazy.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
Can't we just let the guy who started this post compliment without starting a big fight....lol wowzers
With that said, I also agree
Go Sigil!
Originally posted by Celestian
because it is not in there yet? in beta ? lol have patience.... the game isn't out yet, not everything is in beta yet and sigil has said they have no intention of releasing the game until it is ready, witch has been beaten into the ground by brad and other Dev's.
Assuming that stuff will magically appear is just as stupid.I've been in a lot of beta's and almost NONE of them had the features they announced before the game was released. The "it's only beta, they are running in debug mode" is just a silly (in regards to lag/etc).I am not in beta for Vanguard so have no insight for it but assuming that it will have all the features Brad has talked about is crazy. Saying that it's beta and thats why is just as crazy.
so your saying there will not be pvp at launch (for example) because they haven't implemented it yet in beta? so they are lying when they talk about adding features into beta that have not yet been implemented?
i am not in beta either, but maybe sigil is doing it a bit differently than what you are used to? i don't know but i do know they add stuff and change stuff all the time in beta and will be adding more stuff in the future, just read the February and march beta news letters.
yeah i am sure not everything will be in there like they hope, but like i have already said, they seem to be real honest on what they think will make it by launch and what wont.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
it is a discussion forum....not everyone is in agreement here, witch is why i love it. but i don't think anyone is mad or trying to start a fight, we are just trying to get our point across and thats what the forums are there for.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Sigil is doing their beta slightly differently then recent betas. They've said they want a MUCH longer beta to have the time to thoroughly test every aspect. To do this they are releasing content and mechanics into beta piece by piece.
As it stands now they want to get all the base stuff playable and working at a somewhat smooth level and then keep layering on mechanics and content (which may make it seem like not a very innovative game right now or a "1990's" game), but they should be getting almost everything in by end of beta 3 (which has not even started yet) so yes, a lot of stuff is not in beta yet. Beta 4 will most likely be open beta/stress test. They are doing it this way because it is a lot easier to go in and start tweaking each part of the game, then put in more stuff when the first stuff is playable. As apposed to putting a, close to release, only in-house tested game into a beta and trying to get it perfect in a few months... will it work out better in the end? We will wait and see.
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
************************
Exactly, and recently after a discussion on the forums detailing No Instanced dungeons (Which i already knew about) and no solid info on mob 'tagging' (which i didn't know about until )this post. I was ready to give the game a try. Now I'm not so sure. I guess I just find it hard to believe that they are trying to make EQ all over again. Granted with many many more doodads added and a bigger budget.
But this KSing crap and all the issues that go along with it are one of the reasons why I dispise EQ and don't ever wish to play a game like it again.
Brad seems under the impression that he can repeat the EQ boom again with V:SOH. I'm not so sure. EQ came at a time when the MMO world was almost non-existant.
Most likely I'll give the game a whirl but if much of the info that has come out is true. It'll be the trash for this game for me.
Also, I'd like to point out that there are more types of MMOers out there than simply Vanguard types and WoW types. I do agree that the WoW crowd (all 6 million of them) probably won't like this game but there are many inbetween (which I count myself as one) that can go either way depending on how they impliment things in Live. Personally, I've pretty much had it with endless grinds, raids from hell, KSing, and camping to name jsut a few. It seems V:SOH truely is the spiritual successor to EQ in everyway possible.
One final thing. I do hope V:SOH is successful even in a Non-WoW way. The Sigil team seem quite capable (Even if I feel Brad's Vision is rediculous) and technically well rounded. I'm interested to see what happens with them in the future, though I'm not holding my breath.
The intent of my original post was really to compliment Brad on his presence in the Vanguard community. The guy really does read this board and many others, and takes the time to address some of our concerns directly. I think Brad is the most involved CEO of a major game development company I've seen, well, probably ever.
Brad is basically the man behind Everquest, which was the game that blew the lid of the MMO genre and made it into a phenomenon. By all rights, he could be sipping martinis someplace instead of making games. To me, that says he's doing this because he loves it. What's more, he could easily leave all community relations to the hired CRM's and sit in some office someplace working on the game, completly isolated from us. Instead, he wades through our pages of rants, trolls, and assorted BS and actually holds discussions with us.
Regardless of anyone's feelings or theories about the state of Vanguard, if more games had leaders who really listened to their market like Brad is at least trying to do (whether you personally feel he's succeeding or not), I think we'd have a lot more quality games to choose from.
So in the end, my point was simply what I said in the title... I'm impressed.
Grym
I like your post and I agree. I am quite impressed with the interactivity Brad has had with the community. I am also impressed his honesty and his attempts to tone down hype and not ovepromise. It seems every game over promises and never delivers. Brad has gone out of his way in many posts to clarify what may or may not make release. When ideas have not worked in beta he has not been afraid to admit his mistakes and make changes.
I have never seen a dev team so open and willing to listen to its fanbase and discuss game theory. I am generally not the fanboy type but rather a natrual born skeptic. While I am concerned about many of the problems alleged in beta leaks I am very optimistic this game will be very good. Mainly because Brad keeps the communication lines open between Sigil and its fans. He isn't afraid and does not shy away from hard questions on the official boards. While he certainly is an advocate for Vanguard he tends to answer questions realistically, some what neutrally and humbly. I hope he brings this same even handed realistic approach to solving many of the beta issues.
But even if Vanguard was terrible I would buy it and play it because the devs have been so good. I didn't start out as a fanboy but they have won me over. As good as they have been to the fans I hope they succeed and teach other developing game companies that openess and honesty is the best way to treat your potential customer base.
But like other posters have said Vanguard is not for everyone. I don't agree with all of the ideas but it is as close to a perfectly designed game as I have ever seen. I respect that many other could just as easily hate this design. But again Vanguard is not for everyone. But for those who have been waiting for a more challenging hardcore type of game it is the the game for us. Hopefully they will take their time in beta and make sure everything not only works and but that gameplay is polished and fun. Many people don't like WoW but its hard to deny that it is a well done polished and fun game. If a game is not fun to play people won't play it. Just look at EQ2. I played EQ2 in beta and and for a few months after release. I thought many things in EQ2 were enjoyable but overall the game was and still is simply not fun. I hope Vanguard takes the time to make sure that not only the design is good but the game is fun to play.
I do apologize for atleast myself. The thread was sort of hijacked and I went right along with it.
Regardless of what I think of Brad's ideas. I do agree he seems to have taken his lessons during his time at Verant/SOE to heart and does communicate very well with the prospective fans.
Infact I just read a thread he was talking with people from home late at night about varies aspects of the game. Mostly just casual info and chatting but it's damn refreshing to see Devs do that. So a big round of applause to him for it and honestly, to you for having the guts to come and say what you did in your original post.
The only other Dev team I've seen do this is the people over at Simutronics (Makers of Hero's Journey). If you take a peek over in their forums here on mmorpg.com you'll see them quite active with their potential customers.
Given my experience with SOE and verant before them and quite a few other companies for that matter it's very nice to be able to talk to them and discuss stuff.
Hopefully this is a sign of things to come and more companies will start to do more of this.
See Phosphoros, the reason why I think Vanguard will be really successful is the fact that althought it uses the EQ formula, it won't make the same mistake that made EQ boring.
Ksing is something that won't be in Vanguard, most of named are spawned only by the group who possesses a certain item and only that group can target him, so no more named Ksing.
There are still contested mobs though, but in almost any game there are some.
Brad is basically trying to correct all the problems that made EQ very annoying to play for the most, therefore it might be possible that even people like you might like it, providing you are a passionate MMORPG player.
I'm going to have to agree with you on this.
When I see a busy CEO taking the time to read and reply to a thread (like the "good news and bad news about PvP thread") I must admit I am also very impressed.
~ Ancient Membership ~