yea there are usually 30-50 online but at late times it usually goes down to 20ish. The game is not being advertised because of devs dont want it to be yet but hopefully soon enough they will.
To put that in perspective The Discovery Mod server on Freelancer regularly had more than 100 players online on a regular basis during the same time period. And that's just one server.
Maybe the Android market has increased the amount of players a bit but I think my point stands that it's a niche market of a niche market and not in any way representative of the MMO market as a whole.
yea there are usually 30-50 online but at late times it usually goes down to 20ish. The game is not being advertised because of devs dont want it to be yet but hopefully soon enough they will.
To put that in perspective The Discovery Mod server on Freelancer regularly had more than 100 players online on a regular basis during the same time period. And that's just one server.
Maybe the Android market has increased the amount of players a bit but I think my point stands that it's a niche market of a niche market and not in any way representative of the MMO market as a whole.
I wouldn't know: a lot has changed in ten years. That may have been true in 2007, but several dramatic shifts have occurred in the decade since. Half a million current installs (on Android alone) is nothing to sneeze at. If only 0.1% of those players were on at any given time that would still mean 500 players.
In the end, though, how important is it? The game has the design you are looking for. It may be worth at least checking out. Vendetta was fun in 2007 and it's fun today.
I think it's kind of difficult to say what's "representative" of the MMORPG market. Sure, there is UO, Everquest, WoW and its proverbial clones we hear so much about. But how do those games actually get your time?
I have several thousand hours logged in Vendetta; maybe a tenth of that in WoW, and maybe a further tenth of that on a few other MMORPGs.
To me, Vendetta by far is representative of the MMORPG genre going by time spent, although I have lingered in WoW and dabbled in several other MMOs.
As long as there are enough players to make the game interesting, I'm really not obsessed with what the rest of the market is doing. I'm not a MMORPG market manipulator; I'm someone who plays games.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
It has one feature I'm looking for that I can also find in Freelancer. For the most part it seems to be 90% the same as Freelancer. I'm not really sure why I would choose VO over FL when I already own FL and can play on a larger community (Discovery Mod Server) for free. The fact that community is larger also makes the Massively part of VO being an MMO... questionable. Total installs is less important to me than the actual numbers of players online.
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
i'm not really all that into PVP but i did back Camelot Unchained because crafting and i'm sick of the whole raid scene,but i have wondered this for years whenever i see so called pvpers arguing about gear and balance in themepark games. it totally goes against the whole concept of why your pvping. just dont get it.
supposedly they love pvp so much but only play mmo's with tacked on forgotten about pvp experiances.
I too love PvP,and no more consider gear based games with insane gear gaps and advantages any short of serious PvP games. The point of PvP is to test your abilities against other players and to experience harder and more unpredictable than PvE combat. When this element is taken away and players are allowed to dominate not by their skill and intelligence but by their gear,and the process of winning against another player becomes easier than killing a PvE mob,it is then that PvP ceases to exist.
Some people want a massively multiplayer pvp game. Others want a massively multiplayer role playing game that has pvp.
Personally I enjoy both but like the original Ghostbusters don't cross the streams. If I want the former I will load up a game designed around it like a MOBA or a game like Overwatch. When I play a role playing game I want it to be about my character's journey and progression.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
There is no level playing field in open world PvP games, never was never will be.
The Closest they can come to preventing ganking is not letting the other player see what lvl you are, no skull or no lvl number show. Just your name. Most pvp (not all) is just ganks on lowbies (I'm guilty at times). So if you have no clue what lvl they are you might think twice before going in. Unless they are having trouble in the area you are in then you don't really know. Might be someone higher lvl than you just hanging out in a low area not fighting and just passing through.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
Cry about ganking all you want. Doesn't change the fact that RPG's try to stimulate a realistic experience. Player Vs Player gives that immersion. Risk of gank is part of the experience. Same with risk of death by NPC. Being an over-powered god isn't fun -- at least for me.
I'd go as far as to say most recent MMORPG's don't even have much of an NPC death risk. Level 1 should have a difficult time fighting a wolf and serious risk of that wolf killing you. Stick to the rats.
Or better put. Get better and learn from losing. Not cry about losing until the rules change. Everyone is not a winner, that's just not the way of the world.
It has one feature I'm looking for that I can also find in Freelancer. For the most part it seems to be 90% the same as Freelancer. I'm not really sure why I would choose VO over FL when I already own FL and can play on a larger community (Discovery Mod Server) for free. The fact that community is larger also makes the Massively part of VO being an MMO... questionable. Total installs is less important to me than the actual numbers of players online.
Because you may want to use Mac... Linux... Android... maybe experience a MMORPG in VR... you might take exception to not having the server run by a licensed corporate entity...
I'm not sure you can claim the Freelancer discovery mod server has a bigger community based on a nearly 10 year old post from this site. Things change. Sometimes important events occur... like the launch of Android? It's not even clear what Meixon's post from 2007 was based on; although I will vouch that at one time there was an active player graph that included player counts this might have simply been his ballpark estimate based on the window of time he had been playing. There were certainly times previous, and after, when the player count was far higher. Greatest number I've personally seen counted is close to 700. This was over a decade ago, before smart phones were a thing. Greatest number of player ships I've seen in one spot to date is 30. I feel a bit silly for even arguing this.
You should know that "Massively" refers to the total number of allowed simultaneous player interactions. It's not the current number of players playing. If that were true, Yahoo Chess would qualify as a MMOG. Freelancer is capped at 154 simultaneous player interactions, Star Citizen currently allows 24 (with plans to expand). Somehow these both qualify as MMOs to you? Vendetta, like Eve, is designed to have no upper limit. The only limit is how many players are actually playing. The lead developer has stated that if something like 600 players were to converge on the same area it may cause problems, but the goal is to have no limit wherever possible. There may be a current safety check at 300 players in the same spot.
Post edited by Phaserlight on
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
I know plenty of PVP players who love gear dependent games...Assuming they have the superior gear than their opponent.
Same here, I absolutely love gear-dependent PvP. I think only weak little shits who cry about unfairness each time they lose want equal-stat-PvP. I believe most people that claim to be PvP-enthusiasts are proud of their achievements because PvP is there to show that off. So I think that people who want equal stats in PvP within an RPG-universe aren't the kind of people that come here to this site saying they love PvP so much
Class balance is always in the eye of the beholder as well. If you always play cookie cutter and flavor of the month and get beaten by a better player playing the "worst" class you will always cry OP and call for nerfing while the cookie cutter classes get buffed again. Same in every mmo with pvp.
Cry about ganking all you want. Doesn't change the fact that RPG's try to stimulate a realistic experience. Player Vs Player gives that immersion. Risk of gank is part of the experience. Same with risk of death by NPC. Being an over-powered god isn't fun -- at least for me.
I'd go as far as to say most recent MMORPG's don't even have much of an NPC death risk. Level 1 should have a difficult time fighting a wolf and serious risk of that wolf killing you. Stick to the rats.
Or better put. Get better and learn from losing. Not cry about losing until the rules change. Everyone is not a winner, that's just not the way of the world.
"Ganking" would actually become a mechanic that made a game more interesting- rather than something that drove players away- if a pvp mmo had little to no gear/level gap.
Cry about ganking all you want. Doesn't change the fact that RPG's try to stimulate a realistic experience. Player Vs Player gives that immersion. Risk of gank is part of the experience. Same with risk of death by NPC. Being an over-powered god isn't fun -- at least for me.
I'd go as far as to say most recent MMORPG's don't even have much of an NPC death risk. Level 1 should have a difficult time fighting a wolf and serious risk of that wolf killing you. Stick to the rats.
Or better put. Get better and learn from losing. Not cry about losing until the rules change. Everyone is not a winner, that's just not the way of the world.
"Ganking" would actually become a mechanic that made a game more interesting- rather than something that drove players away- if a pvp mmo had little to no gear/level gap.
To each his own there. I stick to the mugger on the street metaphor. Is he bigger than you? What kind of weapon does he have? Do you fight back? Do you hand him your money and hope not to get hurt? There has to be a realism aspect for me in MMO's, overpowering players should be there. Know when to risk, when not too. If players don't like pvp in an mmorpg, then don't play an mmorpg with pvp.
Fair fights are for lack of better terms bullshit. I truly believe even in a completely equal playing field, people will still complain for sure fact of they just aren't any good at it and refuse to practice and get better. To use another metaphor, you don't just go toe to toe with a heavy weight champion, you train hard, you eat hard, you practice.
of mankind. we don't ask for a pause and we do not get a pause. The only thing that matters is who is going to survive. it is a hard thing to PvP another man, you take away everything he has ever thought about and accomplished and every thing he is ever going to accomplish. It leaves a bloody scar on your brain as your mind suffers through the effects of ptsd day by day. yes day by day you struggle to make it to a PvE server, you strive, you crawl and one day you are there---care bear world:)
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
I don't agree that PvP generally infers anything other than players can fight one another. MMOs are all about character progression (stats, gear, skill) so its natural this would effect its pvp. I think ganking is all about intent - taking your 80 to a level 10 zone to interrupt someones enjoyment of the game is ganking. Doing it to alert that persons guild to respond is not. Mini emergent wars take place that can be super fun.
When you start to control the interactions of players with stat scaling, level boosting or vanillafying the experience it takes away something in the open world (Im all for an even playing field in a "match" style game mode like arena or battleground).
No one likes to lose, but I think its up to the player to understand the rules of the game they are playing. When I first started playing WoW I intentionally rolled on a PVP server. I did research to understand what the differences of the servers were and decided that due to the lore of Alliance versus Horde it was only right for me to attack the other faction when I came across them in my journey (dirty horde gotta die!).
Back then Stranglethorn Vale was one fun place and im talking about being lvl 30ish or so, not level capped. I got camped, teamed up with some others and fought players 10 levels higher than us. The ability to get owned or do the owning makes it both fun and aggravating at the same time.
On a side note - Shooters should never have gear progression, more Unreal Tournament, Delta Force, Tribes style setups.
I know plenty of PVP players who love gear dependent games...Assuming they have the superior gear than their opponent.
Yeah, twinks and griefers usually prefer easy kills.
But the average gamer do prefer combat that can go either way because it is exciting. Personally do I think that we need something in between with some progression but a very low powergap.
I wouldn't mind a RvR game that borrowed the RvR from DaoC and had some servers with GWs idea that PvP only characters could start with max level and good gear.
I know plenty of PVP players who love gear dependent games...Assuming they have the superior gear than their opponent.
Yeah, twinks and griefers usually prefer easy kills.
But the average gamer do prefer combat that can go either way because it is exciting. Personally do I think that we need something in between with some progression but a very low powergap.
I wouldn't mind a RvR game that borrowed the RvR from DaoC and had some servers with GWs idea that PvP only characters could start with max level and good gear.
That would be pretty much my ideal game. All the great parts of RvR-style combat without the need to grind for gear/levels.
Ok I think I'm the PK guy he's talking about. I love to sneak around in enemy territory and deliver surprise death screens to the un-expecting. It's not quite like he makes it out though.
If someone is significantly lower level than me, I'd only attack them if they attack me first, or if he's following me around spouting coordinates off to everyone interested in finding me. It's a lot more fun to deliver undesired PvP lessons to someone 5 levels above you in better gear who just has a 1200ms lag time between their brain and fingers.
Is this ganking? Of course!! Was it fair? No!! Usually I get shut down by the angry mob of 12 players or an assembled guild and that's not fair either lol. So I typically run the largest marathon conceivable and enjoy the frustrated attention of a dozen other gamers until they finally get me down and then I tell them how long it took them.
Finally I try to let those guys get fully involved in another activity before returning to cause their PvP incapable friends to begin screaming distractions to them again. That's as funny as anything, knowing the poor guy I'm beating on is shouting adolescent obscenities while he holds down S key in combat.
Sometimes they just turn around right after I attack them and dismember me, that's embarrassingly funny, I don't go 'nice job mate' like that one guy said, it's more like 'Holy shit lol'.
Yep that's me.
There's no games that really allow for my behavior that much anymore though. Most games either have the super massive gear discrepancy the OP was talking about. Many games, there's about a 5 level window, 2.5 levels above and you're hitting for -1. 2.5 levels below and you 2 shot. That's not fun, no challenge.
For example, in Aion, it was possible to take on people many levels above you. I haven't played in a long time because it got a bunch of nerfs to open-world PvP, in addition, tons of people had hacked clients, including many on the PvP leader-board. They'd only get banned when they live streamed their shenanigans and accidentally revealed themselves. Hacking completely ruins you, makes you dim witted and takes your edge off. You can't get better at PvP while hacking, only worse.
Unlike most believe, we gankers don't hone our skills on the backs of people 16 levels below us. Most of us spend the majority of our time dueling other players, guildies, other gankers. Fighting the best in sport allows us an unfair advantage against people who play against AI all day.
I will give you 1 free lesson in PvP: Take a butter knife and remove the S key from your keyboard.
After playing BF1, I can't really see how I could enjoy MMORPG pvp again.
If it's not gear/level based discrepancies, it's zerg blobs like in ESO (though all things being equal in gear, etc., there are some good pvpers there, but also exploiters) and GW2 (WvW -- spvp is pretty fun, but it's not open world at all, it's just equalized arena). That's just no fun. If you want to hide in rocks and gank "bads" then have fun, but mostly it's just zerg force. That's crap pvp.
Loads of people love to pvp in games like LoL, COD, BF, Overwatch, etc. It seems like mmorpgs that rely on pvp become niche. UO and DAOC were a loooong time ago, so bringing those up is not even valid any more. Things have changed so much in gaming and the quality of pure pvp available now is amazing.
MMORPG pvpers are a declining minority of players. Even mmorpgs, as we have often observed here, are declining in general.
I don't know about the Asian games, how popular MMORPGs are there still, etc. I know L2 makes a lot of money for NCSoft, though. But I don't think it really shows that MMORPG pvp is popular.
Koreans definitely love PvP every Korean game has forced PvP at some level . Japanese games like the Final Fantasy franchise allow for optional PvP. Chinese gamers also love PvP from I gather
PVP generally infers that there is a level playing field, some equality between the people playing that should isolate skill as the deciding factor.
MMO PVP does the exact opposite, it rewards level or gear advantages. To me this is simply not PVP, it is most usually ganking or cowardice...
MMO PVP is played by people who do not like PVP, who are so scared of losing that they need to give themselves unfair advantages before they even agree to play the game...
Opinions?
tThat is why pvp mmos have a total of like 150 thousand among all of them, and mobas have millions. I would say eve is the biggest one, and that only has like 20k. If eve took it up a notch, and took concord out, and made it so you could be attacked any where it would have like 1000 people left. There are only a select few people who enjoy mmo pvp. It is also why there are only like 2 full pvp games, and they both are utter garbage, and no one plays them. Darkfall, and Mortal online, and in both they prolly total a few 100 players. UO use to be one, but they changed their tune quickly when they found out they lost all their players to EQ.
As far as the people example that a pvp mmo is war, and a moba is a sport , eve online is the only exception to that, but that is because even a low level can effectively fight in the wars. BDO is just who grinded longer, Dark fall, mortal online same thing.
I agree with you completely. For any one that thinks this is how it has always been you haven't been playing mmos since they were good, just the crap blizzard has forced on us. There was a time were mmos had no BEST gear and skill was the deciding factor not flavor of the month OP classes or abilities. Back then a single player could destroy a whole guild solo if they were good enough with out any crutches to give any sort of advantage.
I agree with you completely. For any one that thinks this is how it has always been you haven't been playing mmos since they were good, just the crap blizzard has forced on us. There was a time were mmos had no BEST gear and skill was the deciding factor not flavor of the month OP classes or abilities. Back then a single player could destroy a whole guild solo if they were good enough with out any crutches to give any sort of advantage.
What mmo is that. UO was 100 percent gear and level based, Eq same, dark age of Camelot gear and item, so which one?
I agree with you completely. For any one that thinks this is how it has always been you haven't been playing mmos since they were good, just the crap blizzard has forced on us. There was a time were mmos had no BEST gear and skill was the deciding factor not flavor of the month OP classes or abilities. Back then a single player could destroy a whole guild solo if they were good enough with out any crutches to give any sort of advantage.
It's not just "back then", either. I am still playing a MMORPG like this.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Comments
I'm not disputing it has more than 30-50 players but in 2007 Someone who has the title "Vendetta Online Correspondent" on these boards said this:
To put that in perspective The Discovery Mod server on Freelancer regularly had more than 100 players online on a regular basis during the same time period. And that's just one server.
Maybe the Android market has increased the amount of players a bit but I think my point stands that it's a niche market of a niche market and not in any way representative of the MMO market as a whole.
In the end, though, how important is it? The game has the design you are looking for. It may be worth at least checking out. Vendetta was fun in 2007 and it's fun today.
I think it's kind of difficult to say what's "representative" of the MMORPG market. Sure, there is UO, Everquest, WoW and its proverbial clones we hear so much about. But how do those games actually get your time?
I have several thousand hours logged in Vendetta; maybe a tenth of that in WoW, and maybe a further tenth of that on a few other MMORPGs.
To me, Vendetta by far is representative of the MMORPG genre going by time spent, although I have lingered in WoW and dabbled in several other MMOs.
As long as there are enough players to make the game interesting, I'm really not obsessed with what the rest of the market is doing. I'm not a MMORPG market manipulator; I'm someone who plays games.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
supposedly they love pvp so much but only play mmo's with tacked on forgotten about pvp experiances.
The point of PvP is to test your abilities against other players and to experience harder and more unpredictable than PvE combat.
When this element is taken away and players are allowed to dominate not by their skill and intelligence but by their gear,and the process of winning against another player becomes easier than killing a PvE mob,it is then that PvP ceases to exist.
Personally I enjoy both but like the original Ghostbusters don't cross the streams. If I want the former I will load up a game designed around it like a MOBA or a game like Overwatch. When I play a role playing game I want it to be about my character's journey and progression.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
I'd go as far as to say most recent MMORPG's don't even have much of an NPC death risk. Level 1 should have a difficult time fighting a wolf and serious risk of that wolf killing you. Stick to the rats.
Or better put. Get better and learn from losing. Not cry about losing until the rules change. Everyone is not a winner, that's just not the way of the world.
I'm not sure you can claim the Freelancer discovery mod server has a bigger community based on a nearly 10 year old post from this site. Things change. Sometimes important events occur... like the launch of Android? It's not even clear what Meixon's post from 2007 was based on; although I will vouch that at one time there was an active player graph that included player counts this might have simply been his ballpark estimate based on the window of time he had been playing. There were certainly times previous, and after, when the player count was far higher. Greatest number I've personally seen counted is close to 700. This was over a decade ago, before smart phones were a thing. Greatest number of player ships I've seen in one spot to date is 30. I feel a bit silly for even arguing this.
You should know that "Massively" refers to the total number of allowed simultaneous player interactions. It's not the current number of players playing. If that were true, Yahoo Chess would qualify as a MMOG. Freelancer is capped at 154 simultaneous player interactions, Star Citizen currently allows 24 (with plans to expand). Somehow these both qualify as MMOs to you? Vendetta, like Eve, is designed to have no upper limit. The only limit is how many players are actually playing. The lead developer has stated that if something like 600 players were to converge on the same area it may cause problems, but the goal is to have no limit wherever possible. There may be a current safety check at 300 players in the same spot.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Fair fights are for lack of better terms bullshit. I truly believe even in a completely equal playing field, people will still complain for sure fact of they just aren't any good at it and refuse to practice and get better. To use another metaphor, you don't just go toe to toe with a heavy weight champion, you train hard, you eat hard, you practice.
Its bloody, horrible war, it is the scourge
of mankind. we don't ask for a pause and we do not get a pause. The only thing that matters is who is going to survive. it is a hard thing to PvP another man, you take away everything he has ever thought about and accomplished and every thing he is ever going to accomplish. It leaves a bloody scar on your brain as your mind suffers through the effects of ptsd day by day. yes day by day you struggle to make it to a PvE server, you strive, you crawl and one day you are there---care bear world:)
When you start to control the interactions of players with stat scaling, level boosting or vanillafying the experience it takes away something in the open world (Im all for an even playing field in a "match" style game mode like arena or battleground).
No one likes to lose, but I think its up to the player to understand the rules of the game they are playing. When I first started playing WoW I intentionally rolled on a PVP server. I did research to understand what the differences of the servers were and decided that due to the lore of Alliance versus Horde it was only right for me to attack the other faction when I came across them in my journey (dirty horde gotta die!).
Back then Stranglethorn Vale was one fun place and im talking about being lvl 30ish or so, not level capped. I got camped, teamed up with some others and fought players 10 levels higher than us. The ability to get owned or do the owning makes it both fun and aggravating at the same time.
On a side note - Shooters should never have gear progression, more Unreal Tournament, Delta Force, Tribes style setups.
But the average gamer do prefer combat that can go either way because it is exciting. Personally do I think that we need something in between with some progression but a very low powergap.
I wouldn't mind a RvR game that borrowed the RvR from DaoC and had some servers with GWs idea that PvP only characters could start with max level and good gear.
If someone is significantly lower level than me, I'd only attack them if they attack me first, or if he's following me around spouting coordinates off to everyone interested in finding me. It's a lot more fun to deliver undesired PvP lessons to someone 5 levels above you in better gear who just has a 1200ms lag time between their brain and fingers.
Is this ganking? Of course!! Was it fair? No!! Usually I get shut down by the angry mob of 12 players or an assembled guild and that's not fair either lol. So I typically run the largest marathon conceivable and enjoy the frustrated attention of a dozen other gamers until they finally get me down and then I tell them how long it took them.
Finally I try to let those guys get fully involved in another activity before returning to cause their PvP incapable friends to begin screaming distractions to them again. That's as funny as anything, knowing the poor guy I'm beating on is shouting adolescent obscenities while he holds down S key in combat.
Sometimes they just turn around right after I attack them and dismember me, that's embarrassingly funny, I don't go 'nice job mate' like that one guy said, it's more like 'Holy shit lol'.
Yep that's me.
There's no games that really allow for my behavior that much anymore though. Most games either have the super massive gear discrepancy the OP was talking about. Many games, there's about a 5 level window, 2.5 levels above and you're hitting for -1. 2.5 levels below and you 2 shot. That's not fun, no challenge.
For example, in Aion, it was possible to take on people many levels above you. I haven't played in a long time because it got a bunch of nerfs to open-world PvP, in addition, tons of people had hacked clients, including many on the PvP leader-board. They'd only get banned when they live streamed their shenanigans and accidentally revealed themselves. Hacking completely ruins you, makes you dim witted and takes your edge off. You can't get better at PvP while hacking, only worse.
Unlike most believe, we gankers don't hone our skills on the backs of people 16 levels below us. Most of us spend the majority of our time dueling other players, guildies, other gankers. Fighting the best in sport allows us an unfair advantage against people who play against AI all day.
I will give you 1 free lesson in PvP:
Take a butter knife and remove the S key from your keyboard.
Additional lessons cost 39.99/hourly.
If it's not gear/level based discrepancies, it's zerg blobs like in ESO (though all things being equal in gear, etc., there are some good pvpers there, but also exploiters) and GW2 (WvW -- spvp is pretty fun, but it's not open world at all, it's just equalized arena). That's just no fun. If you want to hide in rocks and gank "bads" then have fun, but mostly it's just zerg force. That's crap pvp.
Loads of people love to pvp in games like LoL, COD, BF, Overwatch, etc. It seems like mmorpgs that rely on pvp become niche. UO and DAOC were a loooong time ago, so bringing those up is not even valid any more. Things have changed so much in gaming and the quality of pure pvp available now is amazing.
MMORPG pvpers are a declining minority of players. Even mmorpgs, as we have often observed here, are declining in general.
I don't know about the Asian games, how popular MMORPGs are there still, etc. I know L2 makes a lot of money for NCSoft, though. But I don't think it really shows that MMORPG pvp is popular.
As far as the people example that a pvp mmo is war, and a moba is a sport , eve online is the only exception to that, but that is because even a low level can effectively fight in the wars. BDO is just who grinded longer, Dark fall, mortal online same thing.
I agree with you completely. For any one that thinks this is how it has always been you haven't been playing mmos since they were good, just the crap blizzard has forced on us. There was a time were mmos had no BEST gear and skill was the deciding factor not flavor of the month OP classes or abilities. Back then a single player could destroy a whole guild solo if they were good enough with out any crutches to give any sort of advantage.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance