Can We Ever Fix Empty Zones? a Columns at MMORPG.com

SBFord · December 2016

Can We Ever Fix Empty Zones? a Columns at MMORPG.com

I’d intended to write about the arrival of the dreaded lockbox into The Elder Scrolls Online but having already written about them in the past, I wanted to turn my attention to MMO worlds and more specifically, zones and the “busyness” of them. As a new player to The Elder Scrolls Online I’d every expectation that the majority of zones I’d pass through would be empty.

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orbitxo · December 2016

yes- have em scale up to the appropriate players level. - if a lower level whos not grouped tags a mob higher level is playing-hthey get no xp or rewards. simple really.

bring new lore quest lines into them= not dailies. - i must go back now to eat my burrito for lunch...

TalulaRose · December 2016

orbitxo said:

yes- have em scale up to the appropriate players level. - if a lower level whos not grouped tags a mob higher level is playing-hthey get no xp or rewards. simple really.

bring new lore quest lines into them= not dailies. - i must go back now to eat my burrito for lunch...

And what happens when the zone is filled with higher levels and the mobs proceed to wipe the floor with the lower levels?

[mod edit]

Sovrath · December 2016

"Why not place end-game dungeons across low and mid-level zones?"

This is something I've said for years.

Heck, in EQ2 in Antonia Bayle, there is a dungeon for beginner players (it's a sewer system ordeal) but there is also a level that is much harder that would require a group or at least higher level players.

However, in Elder Scrolls Online, since every place levels to you, you will find that it doesn't matter where you are, you will probably see players.

mistmaker · December 2016

Not in themeparks/questhub games

kjempff · December 2016

- Have zones that live on their own.
- Introduce mechanics that make crowded areas less rewarding and non crowded more. Could be dynamic loot systems, rare (and therfore more rewarding) spawn.
- Mechanics to make it easier to "summon" group members or other forms of faster travel exclusively for groups.
- Dynamic world, either manually changed by devs or gm or by dynamic world system like eqnext proposed.

Ikeda · December 2016

Honestly, I miss that feeling of... "oh crap, I'm not supposed to be here" when you walk into a cave full of baddies 10x your level.

I never understood why, if WoW can gate content based on your level, why you can't have people for all different levels giving you different quests.

For example, some 1-10 players could be tasked with taking out a rat infestation. 30-40 find out that the rats are because someone has purposely shifted something into their environment. 50-60 discovers who did it and why.

centkin · December 2016

What is wrong with empty zones actually? I mean an empty zone doesn't need to be loaded by the servers. An empty zone offends no one. It is the zones with 1-6 people in it that are more the problem.

Aeander · December 2016

Dead zones can't be removed. They can, however, be alleviated with some of the following:

Player level downscaling with reward upscaling.

Exclusive map currencies and rewards.

Emphasis on fewer, larger maps with more hidden content and rewards.

Numerous high rarity rewards unique to each individual map.

Crafting materials unique to each map.

waynejr2 · December 2016

Sovrath said:

"Why not place end-game dungeons across low and mid-level zones?"

This is something I've said for years.

Heck, in EQ2 in Antonia Bayle, there is a dungeon for beginner players (it's a sewer system ordeal) but there is also a level that is much harder that would require a group or at least higher level players.

However, in Elder Scrolls Online, since every place levels to you, you will find that it doesn't matter where you are, you will probably see players.

City of Heroes would have missions that sent you back to lower level zones. Which is great. It added to the population of a zone.

They added ambushes to missions which spawned mobs outside the instance. They would spawn somewhere in the zone then move towards the instance location and set awaiting at a distance. So low level players would see these high level mobs running around and sometimes they would attack them or aggro them and die. A great benefit was that it added danger to the lower level zones.

syriinx · December 2016

While I'm not really a fan of level scaling, the positive impact on the max level game in WoW is undeniable. Coupled with the world quest system, the entire expansion in WoW is alive with players everywhere at 110. Granted if you spread that across the entire world it would thin the population dramatically, but for the first time in WoW people are using the entire expansion the whole time, not just one zone and a few daily areas.

waynejr2 · December 2016

Just to add, I don't have a pedantic need to have people around me in a zone just so the game feels alive. I believe this need to see people is odd.

Octagon7711 · December 2016

In Aion it was nice to see high level characters in the start zone when they started giving them a quest in which they had to return to speak to the NPC there. It gave you a glance of what you were working towards. GW2 I actually do most of my game play against world bosses in low to high level zones and most of the dynamic events I like to do are in mid level areas. This actually helps the lower level players because they get a lot of heals from the higher level players.

ESO, it just depends the on time I play, evenings and weekends are usually plenty of people in most parts but if I play during the day it looks like the pic OP posted with no one at the anchor and nothing to do but stare at the bad guys cause I can't solo an anchor.

All they really have to do is add some spots where the player has to return to a low level area to finish or continue a quest.

Iselin · December 2016

Actually the One Tamriel update in ESO has done quite a bit to balance the population across zones using a rather unique system. But unless you're >CP160 you probably haven't caught on to that yet.

Gear drops everywhere in ESO now scale to your level and each zone in ESO now has 3 specific sets of gear unique to that zone: one light armor set, one medium and one heavy. Sets and the Diablo-like benefits you get from wearing 2, 3, 4 or 5 pieces of the same set, make a huge impact on your healing, tanking and damage dealing abilities.

When you level up through the zones this gear drops for you at whatever level you happen to be when you're there. And you'll be discarding (deconstructing for raw materials or selling) this gear as you level. But gear is capped at CP160. What this means is that a new type of end-game activity was introduced by these zone-specific gear sets. Namely, when you reach CP160 you're going to be roaming around any and all zones, revisiting old familiar places, looking for treasure chests, going into the delves and public dungeons, doing the Dark Anchor group events as well as the group world bosses in order to gear up with end-game level versions of those sets you want.

It's not a perfect system because the gear sets are not equally in demand so the zones that have the more desirable ones are busier than those that don't (although I have to say that I can't think of a single zone that doesn't have large number of high level players in it currently looking for at least one of the 3 sets in the zone.). The starter islands for all 3 alliances drop the Trainee set which, despite its name, is in high demand for end game builds, particularly tanking, so they're very busy with high level players. Likewise the 1st Aldmeri Dominion zone after the starter island, Auridon, because of the light armor Elegant set... Bangkorai for the medium armor, Spriggan set... and so on.

There's also an RNG component involved that makes your visit to those traditionally low-level zones longer than you'd think. Armor and weapons in ESO also have "traits" and some traits are more desirable than others. Weapons with the "Sharpened" trait, for example, are considered the best for DPS because of their penetration rating that ignores some of the mitigation. Likewise armor with the "Divines" trait is highly sought after because it augments the Mundus stone buff. So even after you have the 5 pieces of Spriggan you wanted, you'll keep revisiting the zone because maybe you don't have some of the pieces yet with the trait you want.

And these set pieces are also bind on equip so you can sell them - some for hefty amounts. Even after you gear yourself, there's still a reason why many keep going back to get more pieces to sell.

Nothing like self-interest to make these formerly low level zones worth visiting again.

SEANMCAD · December 2016

oh now here is a topic that doesnt apply to every single solitary MMO that uses the exact same cookie cutter design as ESO copied from over the past 10 years.

Iselin · December 2016

SEANMCAD said:

oh now here is a topic that doesnt apply to every single solitary MMO that uses the exact same cookie cutter design as ESO copied from over the past 10 years.

Yeah? Enlighten us Sean. How is what I wrote in the post just above yours a cookie cutter copied design when every other MMO out there forces you to do group dungeons and raids to gear-up instead of letting you do it by revisiting old zones in the overland world?

SEANMCAD · December 2016

Iselin said:

SEANMCAD said:

oh now here is a topic that doesnt apply to every single solitary MMO that uses the exact same cookie cutter design as ESO copied from over the past 10 years.

Yeah? Enlighten us Sean. How is what I wrote in the post just above yours a cookie cutter copied design when every other MMO out there forces you to do group dungeons and raids to gear-up instead of letting you do it by revisiting old zones in the overland world?

no sorry my bad it was a response to the main article. I usually mention that but I got lazy

sunshadow21 · December 2016

Final Fantasy XI did a very nice job of dealing with this. High level mobs and dungeons were scattered around the lower level areas while leaving most of those zones reasonably safe for lower level characters. It was by far the best mix of character levels I have ever seen.

H0urg1ass · December 2016

1) Don't have zones. This doesn't do much good for games that are already zoned, but new games should shy away from this concept. Instead have areas that seamlessly blend into the next, or are separated by features such as mountain passes or bodies of water.

The Eiglophian Mountains in Age of Conan, although they were a zone, give a great example of how to transition from one type of zone to another. The zone starts at the base of a mountain with some sparse snow and vegetation, but as you go up the mountain the vegetation starts to disappear and it becomes snow dunes and craggy outcroppigs of rock.

Essentially, the developers just need to create transitions.

2) If your game is already zoned (booo), then spread the difficulty level of encounters around the zone based on such things as land features and population zones. For instance, the roads and the towns would have the lower level encounters near them, while venturing out into the scary woods of silence would have mid level encounters and that dark cave at the far corner of the zone? Yeah, don't go in there unless you are max level with some decent gear. Bad shit awaits you.

someforumguy · December 2016

- No classes, just skillpoints for main skills.
- No small regions, but use biomes, so the world feels more natual. - Don't divide the world into level brackets. But put in biomes with more difficulties (more people, specific counter abilties or whatever). Let players bump into those when exploring, so they know what to avoid early on

- Enable a storyline that makes you visit most biomes based on the skills you chose to develop (any type of crafting,combat etc). The quests should also be about that skill. This is your main story questing stuff.
- In each biome, add random rotating quests (kind of like WQ's in WoW, or Anarchy Online's mission terminals)
- Give people a reason to revisit all biomes after questing (taming/hunting animals,trophies, resources, open world dungeons, instanced dungeons, player cities, unlocking new abilities for their skill lines etc.
- Give players a way to create their own missions a la SWG NGE, forgot the other MMO's that let you do this)

This way there is no real starting area for anyone and people go where and develop their toon the way they want to.

I am just winging it here with thinking of ways, but imo level based progression is a curse if you want to make players revisit older zones and make the virtual world feel like one place.

SEANMCAD · December 2016

someforumguy said:

- No classes,....

now you have my attention.

its ironical how Elder Scrolls series is one of my favorite game series ever and I have zero interest in ESO.

DreadTooth · December 2016

someforumguy said:

I am just winging it here with thinking of ways, but imo level based progression is a curse if you want to make players revisit older zones and make the virtual world feel like one place.

Well, reading what you wrote got me thinking. If levels just gave small, very small, increases to a player, to where mixing some easier and harder mobs in even half the zones still gave weaker people a chance to kill a harder mob, since, you know, nobody is truly in a different league than anyone else but instead things are just harder or easier, I think that would be fun. Killing easy things at a higher level wouldn't be all one-hits with no damage done in return, you could still die. Also, instead of getting almost no exp as a higher level killing lower level mobs, to be equal with the slight different between level ranges model, you could get the same or about the same exp just your exp requirement to the next level would be a whole lot more so it would take longer, essentially giving you 'less' for killing something 'less' hard. I mean... if levels are going to be used (I prefer a full skill-based system, myself) then that is one way it might work.

Aeander · December 2016

H0urg1ass said:

1) Don't have zones. This doesn't do much good for games that are already zoned, but new games should shy away from this concept. Instead have areas that seamlessly blend into the next, or are separated by features such as mountain passes or bodies of water.

The Eiglophian Mountains in Age of Conan, although they were a zone, give a great example of how to transition from one type of zone to another. The zone starts at the base of a mountain with some sparse snow and vegetation, but as you go up the mountain the vegetation starts to disappear and it becomes snow dunes and craggy outcroppigs of rock.

Essentially, the developers just need to create transitions.

2) If your game is already zoned (booo), then spread the difficulty level of encounters around the zone based on such things as land features and population zones. For instance, the roads and the towns would have the lower level encounters near them, while venturing out into the scary woods of silence would have mid level encounters and that dark cave at the far corner of the zone? Yeah, don't go in there unless you are max level with some decent gear. Bad shit awaits you.

You're just getting into semantics at that point though. You won't have dead "zones" anymore, but the effect will be fundamentally the same. You'll still have areas with high population density and areas with low population density.

Wizardry · December 2016

Yes it can be done and easily via the need for those NPC's,,,separate auction houses,various quests,you can add in discovery items,zone type harvesting,tons of ways without me forming 5 paragraphs.
An idea i have long wanted is to have each zone viable for upgrades,with our weapon and gear and tools.

Just look around the world,you should be able to copy it,there are reasons people inhabit all cities in drones.
How about special events,particular to each zone?Perhaps a fair comes around once a season to one city.Maybe there is a Mage's challenge event in another city,one for warriors etc etc.

Perhaps each zone has a particular type of pet or companion or travel means be it horses or Tigers or maybe even a steam powered vehicle.

H0urg1ass · December 2016

Aeander said:

H0urg1ass said:

1) Don't have zones. This doesn't do much good for games that are already zoned, but new games should shy away from this concept. Instead have areas that seamlessly blend into the next, or are separated by features such as mountain passes or bodies of water.

The Eiglophian Mountains in Age of Conan, although they were a zone, give a great example of how to transition from one type of zone to another. The zone starts at the base of a mountain with some sparse snow and vegetation, but as you go up the mountain the vegetation starts to disappear and it becomes snow dunes and craggy outcroppigs of rock.

Essentially, the developers just need to create transitions.

2) If your game is already zoned (booo), then spread the difficulty level of encounters around the zone based on such things as land features and population zones. For instance, the roads and the towns would have the lower level encounters near them, while venturing out into the scary woods of silence would have mid level encounters and that dark cave at the far corner of the zone? Yeah, don't go in there unless you are max level with some decent gear. Bad shit awaits you.

You're just getting into semantics at that point though. You won't have dead "zones" anymore, but the effect will be fundamentally the same. You'll still have areas with high population density and areas with low population density.

Well, come on now, this discussion really isn't about population density either, so it's not really semantics. It's about dead zones. Entire regions in games where there's no reason whatsoever for a higher level player to return. These places become literal ghost towns after the population settles, with only the occasional non-power leveled player questing through it.

You'll never be able to "solve" population density, but then again, I don't think it needs resolving. People tend to like to gather, and that's fine.

However, with my proposal, there wouldn't be completely unused territory in a game. Someone will choose to live, or visit, just about anywhere and it won't be based entirely on the fact that it's the zone with the highest current-level raid content.

Kaisen_Dexx · December 2016

Cyclical Zone Design isn't new. EverQuest did it many years ago, and it wouldn't have to be reinvented if for the last decade or so developers weren't too busy making games that were merely WoW mods. By placing higher level enemies in lower level zones it created a sense of danger for the lower level characters, but also brought the higher level players back to interact with them. The immediate example that pops into my head (but is not the only example in EQ) is The Northern Desert of Ro. Low level groups would camp the caimans/crocs, but higher level sand giants would constantly roam the desert (often murdering inattentive lowbies). Groups (or usually soloers) would camp the giants for money/exp.

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Can We Ever Fix Empty Zones? a Columns at MMORPG.com

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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey