I was really stunned watching the stream. Graphics are perfect for me, not cartoon, not realistics... just the good enought to make my imagination work and make it real.
Team play looks awesome... play like a team, and rest time to make friends... not just run and move forward.
My unique concern at this moment is music... I hope it will be as good as the vanguard music... pure immersion and it helped to bind the game memories in my brain
I find the argument that a game "takes too much time" is a very slanted view held by only the minority who think they must be on the top and competitive. Because they have to be the best, if being the best requires playing a lot then therefore there's nothing else that can possibly be enjoyed. That really couldn't be a more unfair and illogical assessment.
There is plenty to accomplish in a game like Pantheon - much like EQ - in a reasonable amount of time. You just won't be "competitive" as easily, and that's the crux of your argument. Sorry, most people don't think that way.
Depends how you're reading into that statement, if it takes forever because it's overly grindy (lack of a better descriptor).. that's a problem. If it just feels like a game of math (kill x to reach y), it really doesn't matter what you're progressing in (accomplishing), it will feel trite.
So what are we talking about here a number of different types of grinds? Like faction standing, lvling, side abilities etc.. Where it's just a matter of killing this or that over and over again, or something more involved and intriguing?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I find the argument that a game "takes too much time" is a very slanted view held by only the minority who think they must be on the top and competitive. Because they have to be the best, if being the best requires playing a lot then therefore there's nothing else that can possibly be enjoyed. That really couldn't be a more unfair and illogical assessment.
There is plenty to accomplish in a game like Pantheon - much like EQ - in a reasonable amount of time. You just won't be "competitive" as easily, and that's the crux of your argument. Sorry, most people don't think that way.
I've never been competitive in that way.
The problem with the amount of time things take is very simple.
It doesn't feel like the rewards are worth the investment.
Time is a very limited commodity - and having endless fights that you have to grind through - to get to something that's nearly identical - is not super exciting to all of us.
That's why modern MMOs have reduced TTK - and made content much more distinct. Developers understand that most players want to experience new content - and most players aren't willing to settle for EQ standards.
MMOs were never meant to have EQ-style combat - it was a limitation of networking technology and the new horizon of having hundreds of players in the same areas.
These days, technology has evolved - and they've learned to handle players through clever instancing.
Stubbornly insisting on having slow combat and long TTK is completely unnecessary. You don't have to force single-mob fights that take minutes upon players to have a tactical game.
I find the argument that a game "takes too much time" is a very slanted view held by only the minority who think they must be on the top and competitive. Because they have to be the best, if being the best requires playing a lot then therefore there's nothing else that can possibly be enjoyed. That really couldn't be a more unfair and illogical assessment.
There is plenty to accomplish in a game like Pantheon - much like EQ - in a reasonable amount of time. You just won't be "competitive" as easily, and that's the crux of your argument. Sorry, most people don't think that way.
Depends how you're reading into that statement, if it takes forever because it's overly grindy (lack of a better descriptor).. that's a problem. If it just feels like a game of math (kill x to reach y), it really doesn't matter what you're progressing in (accomplishing), it will feel trite.
So what are we talking about here a number of different types of grinds? Like faction standing, lvling, side abilities etc.. Where it's just a matter of killing this or that over and over again, or something more involved and intriguing?
While what we're doing is definitely an important factor, that it "takes too much time" can apply to either scenario. Which is why it's kind of a red herring argument to begin with, as I suggested.
Whether a game is shallow or it's the most in-depth and intriguing game ever, apparently how long it takes to achieve something ultimately disqualifies it from being fun. At least according to some around here.
I find the argument that a game "takes too much time" is a very slanted view held by only the minority who think they must be on the top and competitive. Because they have to be the best, if being the best requires playing a lot then therefore there's nothing else that can possibly be enjoyed. That really couldn't be a more unfair and illogical assessment.
There is plenty to accomplish in a game like Pantheon - much like EQ - in a reasonable amount of time. You just won't be "competitive" as easily, and that's the crux of your argument. Sorry, most people don't think that way.
Depends how you're reading into that statement, if it takes forever because it's overly grindy (lack of a better descriptor).. that's a problem. If it just feels like a game of math (kill x to reach y), it really doesn't matter what you're progressing in (accomplishing), it will feel trite.
So what are we talking about here a number of different types of grinds? Like faction standing, lvling, side abilities etc.. Where it's just a matter of killing this or that over and over again, or something more involved and intriguing?
While what we're doing is definitely an important factor, that it "takes too much time" can apply to either scenario. Which is why it's kind of a red herring argument to begin with, as I suggested.
Whether a game is shallow or it's the most in-depth and intriguing game ever, apparently how long it takes to achieve something ultimately disqualifies it from being fun. At least according to some around here.
You don't seem to understand.
The time itself is not the problem. It's the time versus reward factor.
It's NOT particularly rewarding to spend minutes standing around a single mob - watching players making a move every 5 seconds - until the goblin predictably drops dead, seeing as how you established the winning tactic a hundred goblins ago - only to be rewarded with a nearly invisible amount of progress on the XP bar.
The time itself is not the problem. It's the time versus reward factor.
It's NOT particularly rewarding to spend minutes standing around a single mob - watching players making a move every 5 seconds - until the goblin predictably drops dead, seeing as how you established the winning tactic a hundred goblins ago - only to be rewarded with a nearly invisible amount of progress on the XP bar.
It's not rocket science.
Yeah, because that's how combat in Pantheon works. There's definitely no variation, no trains, no random mob behaviors, and most important, no death.
I'm sorry that Pantheon won't be a game where you can train groups of 10 mobs into a pack so you can dance around it with flashy telegraphs and AE it all day to get your purple weapons. You don't have to hold it against us though by filling this subforum with your salt because it's not a game catering to you.
The time itself is not the problem. It's the time versus reward factor.
It's NOT particularly rewarding to spend minutes standing around a single mob - watching players making a move every 5 seconds - until the goblin predictably drops dead, seeing as how you established the winning tactic a hundred goblins ago - only to be rewarded with a nearly invisible amount of progress on the XP bar.
It's not rocket science.
Yeah, because that's how combat in Pantheon works. There's definitely no variation, no trains, no random mob behaviors, and most important, no death.
I'm sorry that Pantheon won't be a game where you can train groups of 10 mobs into a pack so you can dance around it with flashy telegraphs and AE it all day to get your purple weapons. You don't have to hold it against us though by filling this subforum with your salt because it's not a game catering to you.
It was a point made as a demonstration of the time versus reward factor.
Based on the video I've just seen, it's not nearly that bad - but it certainly seems to have a similar problem. It certainly doesn't resemble actual combat.
As for your ridiculous example - I hope you're kidding. Is that the only alternative you can see to slow and unrewarding samey combat?
Oh, as for my "salt" - is this a forum where you can't have a different opinion. You only want positive reinforcement? Is your position really that weak?
Crediting them for not using crowd funding when they tried that and failed is like commending people for using a bicycle after their car broke down...it's because they had to. The world looks OK, bit aged graphics..but OK..Character models looks OK, animations are crap..hopefully something they'll fix..Combat is too slow even for Everquest standards, also something they can fix. Downtime is in my opinion something that doesn't work well anymore
What happened? Do you have more pictures as a crutch when you can't argue your case - but you want to respond all the same?
You used to have something to say, at least.
The game may not be for you... and that is okay...
That is what people don't get... The developers and the community don't care if you like the game or not. It is not for everyone. It is not trying to unseat blizzard, or any other mmo. It is trying to bring back a style and gameplay that has been sorely neglected.
I think people will underestimate it... it will start small.. and grow by word of mouth... it will be more like EVE in game growth...
What happened? Do you have more pictures as a crutch when you can't argue your case - but you want to respond all the same?
You used to have something to say, at least.
The game may not be for you... and that is okay...
That is what people don't get... The developers and the community don't care if you like the game or not. It is not for everyone. It is not trying to unseat blizzard, or any other mmo. It is trying to bring back a style and gameplay that has been sorely neglected.
I think people will underestimate it... it will start small.. and grow by word of mouth... it will be more like EVE in game growth...
I'm not saying they care or they should care.
So, I get it.
That doesn't mean there should be no discussion about the potential downsides.
Unless you seriously think that every single thing about the game is perfection and the developers can do no wrong.
Even if that was the case, I'd still say it's healthy to get as many points of view as we can.
As for it growing to EVE numbers, I'd say that's unlikely. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.
It's NOT particularly rewarding to spend minutes standing around a single mob - watching players making a move every 5 seconds - until the goblin predictably drops dead, seeing as how you established the winning tactic a hundred goblins ago - only to be rewarded with a nearly invisible amount of progress on the XP bar.
I like all of that, is that wrong? I don't get why some of you have problem accepting that people have different taste than you have. You are not just trying to give your opinion on the game, which by now is all very clear. Now it looks like you are trying to convince people who like the game that they actually shouldn't, because the slow leveling and downtime don't make sense (to you).
To me it makes perfect sense, not seeing the XP bar moving relaxes me because it take away the pressure of leveling, and while the group is resting I can get a coffee, smoke a cigarette, making myself a sandwich, post on the forums, talking to my family or just shit talk with my group or guild mates. Not worrying about the XP bar makes me actually play the game at my own pace, instead of chasing the XP bar.
I don't need to win to enjoy a MMO (like most of you), I just want to have fun along the journey. Is this such a weird concept to grasp? For me it makes perfect sense. Key word here is "relax" "Socialize" and "Fun", I play MMOs for those reasons. When I feel the need of some intense play sessions, smashing my gamepad on the desk and banging my head on the wall, I play Battlefield, COD or FIFA, which I do quite often, but when I play MMOs I just want to relax.
It's NOT particularly rewarding to spend minutes standing around a single mob - watching players making a move every 5 seconds - until the goblin predictably drops dead, seeing as how you established the winning tactic a hundred goblins ago - only to be rewarded with a nearly invisible amount of progress on the XP bar.
I like all of that, is that wrong? I don't get why some of you have problem accepting that people have different taste than you have. You are not just trying to give your opinion on the game, which by now is all very clear. Now it looks like you are trying to convince people who like the game that they actually shouldn't, because the slow leveling and downtime don't make sense (to you).
To me it makes perfect sense, not seeing the XP bar moving relaxes me because it take away the pressure of leveling, and while the group is resting I can get a coffee, smoke a cigarette, making myself a sandwich, post on the forums, talking to my family or just shit talk with my group or guild mates. Not worrying about the XP bar makes me actually play the game at my own pace, instead of chasing the XP bar.
I don't need to win to enjoy a MMO (like most of you), I just want to have fun along the journey. Is this such a weird concept to grasp? For me it makes perfect sense. Key word here is "relax" "Socialize" and "Fun", I play MMOs for those reasons. When I feel the need of some intense play sessions, smashing my gamepad on the desk and banging my head on the wall, I play Battlefield, COD or FIFA, which I do quite often, but not when I play MMOs.
If you've been following the thread, this isn't about convincing others. It's about correcting their misunderstanding of our dislike.
Of course it's not wrong that you enjoy that kind of gameplay. As I've said countless times before, the game is great for SOME people.
The point of contention is when people don't understand other points of view.
I don't know why you assume I need to "win" anything. I have no idea what that's about here. How can you win an MMO?
No, I want to feel like my time investment is rewarded - and to me, that's about lots of unique content and tangible progression at a reasonable pace.
You will never see me tell people they're wrong to enjoy what they enjoy. On the other hand, I don't understand why I can't state my opinion about a game on a public forum right after a bunch of new videos have been posted that we're all exposed to.
That doesn't mean there should be no discussion about the potential downsides.
Unless you seriously think that every single thing about the game is perfection and the developers can do no wrong.
Even if that was the case, I'd still say it's healthy to get as many points of view as we can.
As for it growing to EVE numbers, I'd say that's unlikely. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.
Do i think everything is perfect?
How, I have not even played the game yet. I can't make an informed decision until I experience it.
That kind of is the point. I don't want the devs to build a game that the average masses want. I want them to build the game they want, and the game they want to play. If my vision lines up with theirs... then great! If not, oh well. In this case, most, if not all of their vision, matches what I love about EQ and the older games.
Debate is healthy, but if you are watching videos and posting comments, then it appears you are interested in the game. Just some advice, the game is more EQ and less "current" WOW... the more you try and suggest the latter, the more rabid push back you will get from the community.
I was really stunned watching the stream. Graphics are perfect for me, not cartoon, not realistics... just the good enought to make my imagination work and make it real.
Team play looks awesome... play like a team, and rest time to make friends... not just run and move forward.
My unique concern at this moment is music... I hope it will be as good as the vanguard music... pure immersion and it helped to bind the game memories in my brain
That doesn't mean there should be no discussion about the potential downsides.
Unless you seriously think that every single thing about the game is perfection and the developers can do no wrong.
Even if that was the case, I'd still say it's healthy to get as many points of view as we can.
As for it growing to EVE numbers, I'd say that's unlikely. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.
Do i think everything is perfect?
How, I have not even played the game yet. I can't make an informed decision until I experience it.
That kind of is the point. I don't want the devs to build a game that the average masses want. I want them to build the game they want, and the game they want to play. If my vision lines up with theirs... then great! If not, oh well. In this case, most, if not all of their vision, matches what I love about EQ and the older games.
Debate is healthy, but if you are watching videos and posting comments, then it appears you are interested in the game. Just some advice, the game is more EQ and less "current" WOW... the more you try and suggest the latter, the more rabid push back you will get from the community.
I have absolutely no investment in the response I get from fanatics.
To me, the MMO world isn't "EQ vs WoW" - and I never considered WoW to be anywhere near the ideal MMO. In fact, I think they did a lot of terrible things with it.
Also, I think EQ and WoW are more alike than unlike.
My "ideal" MMO goes far, far beyond WoW - and in a completely different direction.
But as far as Pantheon is concerned, I'm just voicing my opinion based on my response to the video in question. I loved the potential of Vanguard, for instance - and I think it's unfortunate that they're stubbornly adhering to ancient mechanics, because I think the GOOD parts of games like EQ and Vanguard could still work for a larger market - and here I'm talking about things like a large open world without instances and a strong party-dependent component, if only they bothered to accept that some good things have happened since that time.
I don't think anyone here would want what the "masses" want. I'm sure we also have different opinions of what that might be.
You don't need the "masses" to sustain 250-500K players. But you're never going to get that by being stubborn and blind to the evolution of the genre.
That's all I'm saying.
Thankfully, the game itself will demonstrate whether my point is solid or not.
But there's still time to make adjustments - which is why I think getting many points of view into the debate is healthy.
I don't know why you assume I need to "win" anything. I have no idea what that's about here. How can you win an MMO?
No, I want to feel like my time investment is rewarded - and to me, that's about lots of unique content and tangible progression at a reasonable pace.
You will never see me tell people they're wrong to enjoy what they enjoy. On the other hand, I don't understand why I can't state my opinion about a game on a public forum right after a bunch of new videos have been posted that we're all exposed to.
That's what I mean when I say you have to "win" Basically you need a tangible accolade or prize to show that you didn't waste your time, so you feel good about yourself, I understand you perfectly, and I am ok with it (it's Blizzard game design philosophy, nothing new there) The point here is that you refuse to accept our point of view, because you think it is wrong since you just doesn't make sense to you.
Well, I don't need that tangible prize to feel like I didn't waste my time. Socializing with group mates, clearing contend with them, helping the group or guild to achieve its goal, that's what drives me, all of this is immaterial, but good memories stays with you while worthless pixelated tokens will be forgotten. The only MMOs I still have fond memories of are EQ, EQ2 and Vanilla WoW, I remember people, fun moments, weapon names, zone names, I was 100% hooked to those games. Other MMOs? ........I completely forgot what I achieved, who I met and what we did together....too shallow for me to even care.
I don't know why you assume I need to "win" anything. I have no idea what that's about here. How can you win an MMO?
No, I want to feel like my time investment is rewarded - and to me, that's about lots of unique content and tangible progression at a reasonable pace.
You will never see me tell people they're wrong to enjoy what they enjoy. On the other hand, I don't understand why I can't state my opinion about a game on a public forum right after a bunch of new videos have been posted that we're all exposed to.
That's what I mean when I say you have to "win" Basically you need a tangible accolade or prize to show that you didn't waste your time, so you feel good about yourself, I understand you perfectly, and I am ok with it (it's Blizzard game design philosophy, nothing new there) The point here is that you refuse to accept our point of view, because you think it is wrong since you just doesn't make sense to you.
Well, I don't need that tangible prize to feel like I didn't waste my time. Socializing with group mates, clearing contend with them, helping the group or guild to achieve its goal, that's what drives me, all of this is immaterial, but good memories stays with you while worthless pixelated tokens will be forgotten. The only MMOs I still have fond memories of are EQ, EQ2 and Vanilla WoW, I remember people, fun moments, weapon names, zone names, I was 100% hooked to those games. Other MMOs? ........I completely forgot what I achieved, who I met and what we did together....too shallow for me to even care.
No, I don't want to feel "good about myself" - it's about gameplay evolution. The more my arsenal expands - the more intricate and entertaining the experience of actually playing the game becomes.
My options expand - my fun expands.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard. This very simple concept of character and power progression has been a part of RPGs since their inception.
Same thing can be said for all games, really. Civilization is exactly the same way - as the game is about expanding your options and your technology.
It's PROGRESSION - it's not "World of Warcraft". Why is everything about WoW? Are you that stagnant in your line of thinking?
Once again, you completely ignore that I have ALREADY accepted your point of view. If you enjoy this kind of gameplay, that's great. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever.
It's amazing, really, that you're so willfully blind that you have to invent things to feel "good about yourself" and your point of view.
You enjoy what you enjoy - and I enjoy what I enjoy.
Once again, you completely ignore that I have ALREADY accepted your point of view. If you enjoy this kind of gameplay, that's great. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever.
So why are you still arguing then? You accepted it I am happy you accepted it.
What else is there to discuss? Let's just move on.
Once again, you completely ignore that I have ALREADY accepted your point of view. If you enjoy this kind of gameplay, that's great. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever.
So why are you still arguing then? You accepted it I am happy you accepted it.
What else is there to discuss? Let's just move on.
Once again, I'm correcting your misunderstanding - because you've so far chosen to ignore what I'm saying.
If you finally get it, then we can certainly stop this exchange.
It's PROGRESSION - it's not "World of Warcraft". Why is everything about WoW? Are you that stagnant in your line of thinking?
Because WoW is a perfect example of the "progression" you speak of...
Vanilla WoW and TBC are often heralded as the best time in WOW. Gameplay was much slower than it was today. You had to use CC and coordinate within the groups. There was no group finder. the community was much better.
Then WOTLK happened... and the gameplay turned to more of the "progression", and your quoted pull 10 mobs, philosophy. CC vanish... It was, and still is about, GO GO GO GO. It is about, get in, get it done, and don't remember anything about it.
Progression for the sake of progress is not a valid argument.
The best gameplay and balance in any game is still EQ1. Where EQ didn't progress was UI, ( and I am not talking about addons) in the flow of information, and graphics. I have said this all along. If EQ, had just updated the engine and the graphics, and modified the UI to be more informative while remaining clean, it would still compete in the world today.
Comments
Team play looks awesome... play like a team, and rest time to make friends... not just run and move forward.
My unique concern at this moment is music... I hope it will be as good as the vanguard music... pure immersion and it helped to bind the game memories in my brain
Thank you guys for your work, you are doing great
So what are we talking about here a number of different types of grinds? Like faction standing, lvling, side abilities etc.. Where it's just a matter of killing this or that over and over again, or something more involved and intriguing?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The problem with the amount of time things take is very simple.
It doesn't feel like the rewards are worth the investment.
Time is a very limited commodity - and having endless fights that you have to grind through - to get to something that's nearly identical - is not super exciting to all of us.
That's why modern MMOs have reduced TTK - and made content much more distinct. Developers understand that most players want to experience new content - and most players aren't willing to settle for EQ standards.
MMOs were never meant to have EQ-style combat - it was a limitation of networking technology and the new horizon of having hundreds of players in the same areas.
These days, technology has evolved - and they've learned to handle players through clever instancing.
Stubbornly insisting on having slow combat and long TTK is completely unnecessary. You don't have to force single-mob fights that take minutes upon players to have a tactical game.
Whether a game is shallow or it's the most in-depth and intriguing game ever, apparently how long it takes to achieve something ultimately disqualifies it from being fun. At least according to some around here.
The time itself is not the problem. It's the time versus reward factor.
It's NOT particularly rewarding to spend minutes standing around a single mob - watching players making a move every 5 seconds - until the goblin predictably drops dead, seeing as how you established the winning tactic a hundred goblins ago - only to be rewarded with a nearly invisible amount of progress on the XP bar.
It's not rocket science.
I'm sorry that Pantheon won't be a game where you can train groups of 10 mobs into a pack so you can dance around it with flashy telegraphs and AE it all day to get your purple weapons. You don't have to hold it against us though by filling this subforum with your salt because it's not a game catering to you.
Based on the video I've just seen, it's not nearly that bad - but it certainly seems to have a similar problem. It certainly doesn't resemble actual combat.
As for your ridiculous example - I hope you're kidding. Is that the only alternative you can see to slow and unrewarding samey combat?
Oh, as for my "salt" - is this a forum where you can't have a different opinion. You only want positive reinforcement? Is your position really that weak?
What happened? Do you have more pictures as a crutch when you can't argue your case - but you want to respond all the same?
You used to have something to say, at least.
That is what people don't get... The developers and the community don't care if you like the game or not. It is not for everyone. It is not trying to unseat blizzard, or any other mmo. It is trying to bring back a style and gameplay that has been sorely neglected.
I think people will underestimate it... it will start small.. and grow by word of mouth... it will be more like EVE in game growth...
So, I get it.
That doesn't mean there should be no discussion about the potential downsides.
Unless you seriously think that every single thing about the game is perfection and the developers can do no wrong.
Even if that was the case, I'd still say it's healthy to get as many points of view as we can.
As for it growing to EVE numbers, I'd say that's unlikely. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.
I like all of that, is that wrong?
I don't get why some of you have problem accepting that people have different taste than you have.
You are not just trying to give your opinion on the game, which by now is all very clear.
Now it looks like you are trying to convince people who like the game that they actually shouldn't, because the slow leveling and downtime don't make sense (to you).
To me it makes perfect sense, not seeing the XP bar moving relaxes me because it take away the pressure of leveling, and while the group is resting I can get a coffee, smoke a cigarette, making myself a sandwich, post on the forums, talking to my family or just shit talk with my group or guild mates.
Not worrying about the XP bar makes me actually play the game at my own pace, instead of chasing the XP bar.
I don't need to win to enjoy a MMO (like most of you), I just want to have fun along the journey.
Is this such a weird concept to grasp? For me it makes perfect sense.
Key word here is "relax" "Socialize" and "Fun", I play MMOs for those reasons.
When I feel the need of some intense play sessions, smashing my gamepad on the desk and banging my head on the wall, I play Battlefield, COD or FIFA, which I do quite often, but when I play MMOs I just want to relax.
Of course it's not wrong that you enjoy that kind of gameplay. As I've said countless times before, the game is great for SOME people.
The point of contention is when people don't understand other points of view.
I don't know why you assume I need to "win" anything. I have no idea what that's about here. How can you win an MMO?
No, I want to feel like my time investment is rewarded - and to me, that's about lots of unique content and tangible progression at a reasonable pace.
You will never see me tell people they're wrong to enjoy what they enjoy. On the other hand, I don't understand why I can't state my opinion about a game on a public forum right after a bunch of new videos have been posted that we're all exposed to.
How, I have not even played the game yet. I can't make an informed decision until I experience it.
That kind of is the point. I don't want the devs to build a game that the average masses want. I want them to build the game they want, and the game they want to play. If my vision lines up with theirs... then great! If not, oh well. In this case, most, if not all of their vision, matches what I love about EQ and the older games.
Debate is healthy, but if you are watching videos and posting comments, then it appears you are interested in the game. Just some advice, the game is more EQ and less "current" WOW... the more you try and suggest the latter, the more rabid push back you will get from the community.
To me, the MMO world isn't "EQ vs WoW" - and I never considered WoW to be anywhere near the ideal MMO. In fact, I think they did a lot of terrible things with it.
Also, I think EQ and WoW are more alike than unlike.
My "ideal" MMO goes far, far beyond WoW - and in a completely different direction.
But as far as Pantheon is concerned, I'm just voicing my opinion based on my response to the video in question. I loved the potential of Vanguard, for instance - and I think it's unfortunate that they're stubbornly adhering to ancient mechanics, because I think the GOOD parts of games like EQ and Vanguard could still work for a larger market - and here I'm talking about things like a large open world without instances and a strong party-dependent component, if only they bothered to accept that some good things have happened since that time.
I don't think anyone here would want what the "masses" want. I'm sure we also have different opinions of what that might be.
You don't need the "masses" to sustain 250-500K players. But you're never going to get that by being stubborn and blind to the evolution of the genre.
That's all I'm saying.
Thankfully, the game itself will demonstrate whether my point is solid or not.
But there's still time to make adjustments - which is why I think getting many points of view into the debate is healthy.
Basically you need a tangible accolade or prize to show that you didn't waste your time, so you feel good about yourself, I understand you perfectly, and I am ok with it (it's Blizzard game design philosophy, nothing new there)
The point here is that you refuse to accept our point of view, because you think it is wrong since you just doesn't make sense to you.
Well, I don't need that tangible prize to feel like I didn't waste my time.
Socializing with group mates, clearing contend with them, helping the group or guild to achieve its goal, that's what drives me, all of this is immaterial, but good memories stays with you while worthless pixelated tokens will be forgotten.
The only MMOs I still have fond memories of are EQ, EQ2 and Vanilla WoW, I remember people, fun moments, weapon names, zone names, I was 100% hooked to those games.
Other MMOs? ........I completely forgot what I achieved, who I met and what we did together....too shallow for me to even care.
My options expand - my fun expands.
It has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard. This very simple concept of character and power progression has been a part of RPGs since their inception.
Same thing can be said for all games, really. Civilization is exactly the same way - as the game is about expanding your options and your technology.
It's PROGRESSION - it's not "World of Warcraft". Why is everything about WoW? Are you that stagnant in your line of thinking?
Once again, you completely ignore that I have ALREADY accepted your point of view. If you enjoy this kind of gameplay, that's great. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever.
It's amazing, really, that you're so willfully blind that you have to invent things to feel "good about yourself" and your point of view.
You enjoy what you enjoy - and I enjoy what I enjoy.
Is that not ok? Because it's ok with me.
You accepted it
I am happy you accepted it.
What else is there to discuss? Let's just move on.
If you finally get it, then we can certainly stop this exchange.
Vanilla WoW and TBC are often heralded as the best time in WOW. Gameplay was much slower than it was today. You had to use CC and coordinate within the groups. There was no group finder. the community was much better.
Then WOTLK happened... and the gameplay turned to more of the "progression", and your quoted pull 10 mobs, philosophy. CC vanish... It was, and still is about, GO GO GO GO. It is about, get in, get it done, and don't remember anything about it.
Progression for the sake of progress is not a valid argument.
The best gameplay and balance in any game is still EQ1. Where EQ didn't progress was UI, ( and I am not talking about addons) in the flow of information, and graphics. I have said this all along. If EQ, had just updated the engine and the graphics, and modified the UI to be more informative while remaining clean, it would still compete in the world today.