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The Decline of Guilds
Shinami
Member UncommonPosts: 825
I remember many years ago that the focus on being in the guilds was going through group-based content. However, a day then came where MMORPGs started adding soloing classes able to traverse areas meant for parties. Eventually the concept of soloing grew with the concept of time management, as people don't have 10 hours a day anymore as adults in their jobs and commitments to play MMOs, but since they have the money, companies will cater to them.
The last four MMORPGs I have played (not in any order) where I put some time into them (out of the dozens):
GW 2
FF XIV
TERA
BDO
Have had a system where the majority of people in most guilds are sociable and hardly do anything together. I can see a guild tab to find a guild with 200 - 500 members and find that I have to resort to LFG or Party Finders to actually find parties. I try to get together people in guilds to run areas together and there is just chit-chat everywhere...
So I always asked myself in the last 10 years "Why has the purpose of guilds changed from being necessary in the endgame to feeling like today most are just mundane and useless in most games?"
I can feel the replies echoing in my mind in most 1st party forums translating to "Don't like guilds? gtfo!" or "stfu and just play" right down to the softer "oh you just haven't found the right type of guild yet." and I would be like "wait a minute.... I have to search for the right type of guild to do the obvious? If the obvious is like a needle in a haystack, isn't the point moot to begin with?"
Either way, I wonder at times....
So many games are out there where one can rapidly solo to the endgame in a week or so, then run a single endgame dungeon and go from being undergeared to being ok for that point of the game, just to find out the endgame is smaller than the journey to endgame.
Just a thought.
As I could be playing Solo to endgame, but if that is so..
I rather play a singleplayer console RPG or JRPG where at least I know its oriented for a single player and I won't have to take 5 - 10x longer to do the most basic of things.
What do you think about the state of guilds in different online games?
Are there Online Games where working together and being in a guild are extremely important?
Let me know what you think!
The last four MMORPGs I have played (not in any order) where I put some time into them (out of the dozens):
GW 2
FF XIV
TERA
BDO
Have had a system where the majority of people in most guilds are sociable and hardly do anything together. I can see a guild tab to find a guild with 200 - 500 members and find that I have to resort to LFG or Party Finders to actually find parties. I try to get together people in guilds to run areas together and there is just chit-chat everywhere...
So I always asked myself in the last 10 years "Why has the purpose of guilds changed from being necessary in the endgame to feeling like today most are just mundane and useless in most games?"
I can feel the replies echoing in my mind in most 1st party forums translating to "Don't like guilds? gtfo!" or "stfu and just play" right down to the softer "oh you just haven't found the right type of guild yet." and I would be like "wait a minute.... I have to search for the right type of guild to do the obvious? If the obvious is like a needle in a haystack, isn't the point moot to begin with?"
Either way, I wonder at times....
So many games are out there where one can rapidly solo to the endgame in a week or so, then run a single endgame dungeon and go from being undergeared to being ok for that point of the game, just to find out the endgame is smaller than the journey to endgame.
Just a thought.
As I could be playing Solo to endgame, but if that is so..
I rather play a singleplayer console RPG or JRPG where at least I know its oriented for a single player and I won't have to take 5 - 10x longer to do the most basic of things.
What do you think about the state of guilds in different online games?
Are there Online Games where working together and being in a guild are extremely important?
Let me know what you think!
Comments
Now it's pointless unless you just want an extra chat channel. I think group and raid finders are extremely damaging to the social aspect of MMO's and guilds in particular, especially when they cross realms. There's no incentive to form guilds or a community if all you need to do is press a button to access content.
Great idea on paper until you really think about how adversely it will affect the community.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
www.CeaselessGuild.com
That said, each individual guild tends to have its own purpose, a purpose generally set by the guild leader. A lot are setup as raiding guilds, focused on endgame group PvE, but I've seen just as many guilds setup purely for social reasons, along with RP guilds and PvP guilds.
So, whilst I've observed a similar decline in the current state of guilds, both in terms of what the guilds do / are focused on and how members in guilds behave, I don't blame it on less content, nor do I blame it on tools like the dungeon finder. Instead, I feel it is simply a reflection of the modern MMO community.
To expand on that thought, running a successful guild is a lot of hard work. There is usually a website to manage, some sort of voice chat, perhaps a facebook page. Then you need to run events, spend time recruiting new members, helping out existing members etc. It very quickly becomes a second job. This means the sort of people who run successful guilds tend to be pretty hardcore. They may not be hardcore raiders or pvpers, but they are hardcore fans of the game and are usually very social people. On top of that, they usually have to be quite intelligent - you're running an organisation of gamers, sometimes 100s of them, it does actually take some talent.
If you have a dedicated, talented leader, then your guild is going to go places. Events will get organised, raid teams formed, training offered, alt nights sorted etc. The leader sets the direction and drives everyone there. If they're lucky, they'll be able to find like-minded officers to help run the guild, allowing more stuff to happen.
That all changes when the leader is not talented enough. If a guild has the wrong leader, things quickly fall apart. In my experience, bad leaders result in guilds that are little more than another chat channel (pointless) or guilds that merely give name to a small clique of friends that nobody else can join. Similarly, if the leader is not dedicated enough or has no direction themselves (people who want power but don't know what to do with it), they end up doing things without real conviction so everything is sloppy, less fun and thus negates the purpose of the guild. Often, the guild leader can then end up resenting their position and will quit anyway.
This is why I believe guilds are simply a reflection of the modern community. MMOs are no longer built with longevity in mind, or with hardcores in mind. The types of people that make great guild leaders no longer have much of a place in modern MMOs. Between solofication, removal of RP features, easier combat, less endgame and short times to level, the best guild leaders either change game or don't bother at all.
I don't think it's group finders and dungeon finders that have killed off guilds, but the same driver that led to those features led to the decline of guilds in MMOs. Everything was made too easy in modern MMOs. You don't really have to be good at your class or know much about the game to reach max level in most MMOs today.
This is why the only place you can still find great guilds is in the games with content that requires direction, leadership, and organization (Raiding, RvR, etc).
I dont think the world has turned selfish for it, like some might claim, I just think a lot of people found a way to gain peace of mind.
In a world where life is quite demanding, who can blame them?
I understand your frustration though.
So many different people, hard to make them do what you want, when you want.
Its almost like these buggers have their own free will or something, so rude
The guild elitism of Rift was a huge problem (before Trion ruined the game), guilds in Atlantica Online in Europe ruined one server by one nationality beating on another. Guilds in Aion ruined that for a lot of people by organized ganking. Guilds have ruined more than one marketplace auction house. Guilds in BDO ruined that game for a lot of people by organized exploiting. I could go on forever.
Guilds are a pestilence and the movement away from 'gangs' is long overdue.
Might be territory control, end game raiding or something else.
Back in the day guilds were a new and novel social interaction tool, like AOL chat rooms used to be.
Their luster has worn off some especially as most games are played in a manner where their benefits and services are diminished.
Today players may choose to be social in their games, but they certainly have plenty of other social channels available to connect with other people.
So it's a combination of many factors including game design changes, player preferences, and the much shorter time people are playing MMOs these days.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Im not in opposition to your post in any way, I will just add that when you add this: "You don't really have to be good at your class or know much about the game to reach max level in most MMOs today."
I cant help but ponder about that, because a week into a game, when someone asks about their class in a guild or in general chat/ zone, there will be 2-3 very distinct people responding that people should not ask, but go on google instead.
How does this promote a sense of community ? And how does this encourage people to ask further, when they are basically told to not ask anybody?
I am not saying there are not people willing to help, they are there too, and they are the majority for the most part, but the ones asking questions to get near their community, remember when someone tells them to mind their own business and bugger off.
People dont want to be told to go away twice, so they find the answers on their own the next time they have a question.
Did some part of the possible communication, part of the social community vanish in that process ?
Guilds today are used as a stepping stones by the majority players to get what they want, then vanish.
Most players today don't want to establish communities...
Guilds back in the day lasted very long, had longevity, people you've gamed with for years and years. Guilds were strict too, they had a code of conduct, they had a no drama policy thats why they've lasted for a very long time. People built relationships etc. I wouldn't be suprised if some of those guilds are still around today.
Some modern guilds goal is to just group up with people just to take out a boss, get gear, etc and don't talk to them until the next raid. They aren't that serious as they use to be its just how it is. Honestly I become less interested in mmos over time just because I feel like the social aspect isn't there anymore, thats why I played mmos, for the social aspect and now I've moved onto other games for social aspects.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
Which genre did you move on to for the social aspect?
One of the MMORPGs I am playing pretty much killed the entire social / casual playerbase by its new designs, and its raiding scene is exactly as you describe it, so I should maybe try a different genre.
Since I am not really ready to give up on gaming just yet.
Dungeon finder is easy. You use the people to further your ends and dispose of them afterwards.
In a way it is like a long term relationship vs an endless parade of one night stands.
For the most part I've been playing survival games you name it man, the forest, 7 days to die, h1z1, rust, minecraft. I take a casual approach to these games and play casual games as well. Hang out games such as garry's mod TTT and tower unite.
I hop from game to game often.
But the acronym MMMORPG now currently means Microscopic Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. Kappa.
You forgot to add the greed aspect... that has driven many away from even wanting to be part of a guild. I've watched over and over again a few irl friends that start or take over a guild and use it for rl money making, turning the game into just another job not just for them but for anyone that joins the guild and is foolish enough to believe that they might actually benefit too, until they get kicked for some ridiculous reason and are left with nothing much beyond whatever bad karma the guild may have added to your character's name and perhaps one or two relics that had been "awarded" to keep the troops in line, literally.
I respectfully disagree, I think it's more that they just don't trust anyone because you never know who you're dealing with anymore, let alone their motives. Perhaps games need to change the way grouping in games work, no more auto guilds, make the players earn the title of "guild". For those that just need a guild to enable them to organize their own alts and stuff, just let each account per server have a bank that increases storage with each alt to a maximum, so what if they don't play them all(though I do...) but to get "guild" perks then they should have to help earn that right, along with other like minded players.
"Back in the day" many gamers actually shared rl stuff with each other(even pics of themselves with family and/or friends goofing off, on vacation, etc) and you got to know most of the people to some degree by those, your personal interaction in game and their postings on the forums/chats. Now everyone is anonymous because to play otherwise is to open yourself up to hacks and possibly worse(I even had a stalker or two for a time, took a couple years to finally shake them). That's why those who still play with the same friends that they have for decades often don't understand the problem, they haven't had to deal with it.
Since I don't use them and won't even consider joining a guild that requires them(I certainly don't want to listen to some wannabee bragging about how what a bad*ss they are because they're slagging someone's mom or what a piece of sh*t someone is because they messed up in a boss battle), you may well be on to something.
Just to be fair, a follow up response to what I've read here from all of you.
Apologies in advance as I tend to type a lot in Discussion Forums due to the fact of all the media out there, it is the best outlet for longer, more structured posts and arguments.
I like replying with personal experience turned into personal case studies and opinions :
(1): I remember starting a guild and running it for a year and a half. The conditions of the guild were that we operated in an 8-hour time-slot instead of a 24-hour time slot and it focused on a NA Time Zones prioritizing the Time Zone I lived in. We all had lives, and the point was to recruit people who have lives and to function in the long term. Before tragedy in my life brought an end to the guild, the main argument and request members had of me was in finding things to do. We were all capped, had what we wanted for our characters, and basically had nothing else to do. I was being asked the impossible.... create content or something thing to do in-game outside of the basic content or area of RPing, or Guild Event. Members wanted more content. I had told them "Every Guild Leader has asked for more guild-based content from the developer, I can't give you what I don't have; I can take ideas if need be." and such persisted for a long time. A game simply ran dry and we enjoyed being together. It wasn't all lollipops and sunshine, but it was at least what was needed to create "home" in a game.
(2): I remember writing a while ago a section somewhere on "Soloing vs Grouping." I stated that a developer has to choose whether to lean on soloing and player independence, or grouping and dependence on each other; The developer can not do both as they are opposites. Once that soloing class is released that can do better than a party, its only a matter of time before everyone starts to solo or duo the run with the same soloing class. When a player can depend on a soloing class, it challenges the integrity of entire groups. Players get angry and regardless arguments caused by such friction, one thing remains true; Each person who depends on the soloing class to clear instances means one less capable group-based player from the population. Eventually the scale will tip to the path of least resistance. Grouping and Soloing to me are not "opposites", They are the Antithesis of each other! For example, Night and Day exist, but not simultaneously in the same spot. They do not undo each other, nor undermine each other. I feel Soloing vs Grouping undo one another in extreme ways.
(3): Society and Community deals with Systems and State of Being. One learns the natural first and explores the basics. Eventually the rules are made based on the natural that become more communal. Example. If we sit around a cave and discover fire, we know it heats... but one day one who might be curious gets close and gets seriously injured. The few people who exist say "this thing can hurt or even kill us" and so a rule is made and accepted by society in order to regulate and control our use of fire. In Online Games, our natural area is the system of the game itself. The gameplay mechanics, and we focus a lot on "what the game asks of us" vs "what we want for ourselves." Eventually the system of what is natural comes to being. We start at level 1 and find that we reach level 3 pretty fast, but we then realize our abilities are extremely strong, so we risk fighting level 5 - 8 enemies and we win. We find the level 8 enemy won't give us 100% EXP, but the level 7 one will. So now we have discovered that +4 levels is our max EXP. We then realize we killed the enemy alone and still retained half our health bar. We then decide to optimize our character with gear to kill enemies a lot faster and claim "oh lets make a party." Now one of two things happen. We either (a), Evenly Divide the EXP between the two of us and get a bonus, so maybe instead of 50/50, the game gives us 60/60 (thinking percentages as a base). This makes us think "is the other player properly geared? Is he or she leeching of me? Lets see... I kill Five enemies in one minute, and the other kills one, maybe two...." and so the party gets disbanded pretty soon. Method (b), we find that EXP is the same for both players without it being divided but with bonus... So both players get 100% + maybe +10% more, or perhaps its 100% but a drop rate increase. Ok, this teaches us that its always better to group. Method (a) teaches us that its only good to group IF and Only IF both players are properly geared and we can kill double in the same amount of time. This is a typical approach to learning what kind of game we are playing. It takes a short time, and it becomes natural.....and we choose how to play the game based on what the rules are and what is in front of us. In short, the system and model the developer chose and installed for us to live under while in their game world.
(4) I am used to using Teamspeak III and Mumble. I can program and can write stuff for open source programs with some help. I like being able to talk to party members and have our established rules. A common rule is usually "When in a critical mission, only speak of the mission... as too much joking around is distracting." Even so, Discord to me is a problem. The VoIP isn't so much the problem, but the combination of rooms that run VoIP + Text. Those rooms that have 20 - 100 people all spamming text at the same time. All of that actually lowers my ping in every game I play. Of course, the main thing to VoIP is always getting people in the room... Even if its required within a guild to do so, there are still players who 50% of the time will just type everything out. It can be any VoIP out there. If I want a community to just chit-chat, that is what all of those 1st and 3rd party forums along with all the social media that is out there is for! Yes! I've seen guilds who wish me to join their VoIP + Forum + Facebook + Contribute (points, money, materials, etc) + deal with the in-game text chat and even with all the stuff I've had to join, I've amounted to leveling alone and in endgame, the guild's inner-core is so set in their ways that everyone else is forgotten.
Once again, thank you all for reading so far!
The more solocentric a game is the less point to have a guild.