In a nutshell, it's not enough to simply have an open world PvP MMO. It has to be a well-designed and executed open world PvP MMO.
The biggest detrimental factor to that IMO has been designing a PVP game how you would design a PVE MMORPG. ...
maybe I dont understand. PVE Open Sandbox multiplayer games exist and are doing rather well. There are fewer at the scale of 'Massive' but the rule sets could easily apply.
Its like someone is talking about the lack of existence of the very games I play.....a little hard to digest.
You certainly missed the point. As my entire post below it was essentially describing the type of game-play you find in those other types of games, hence why their popularity is growing with players who only wish to join up and fight other groups of players for pieces of land. The smaller scale worlds just work better for it, the fight for land becomes more intense, making it more addictive.. The type of combat also makes skill more important than gear or levels, meaning there's less of a power gap.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In a nutshell, it's not enough to simply have an open world PvP MMO. It has to be a well-designed and executed open world PvP MMO.
The biggest detrimental factor to that IMO has been designing a PVP game how you would design a PVE MMORPG. ...
maybe I dont understand. PVE Open Sandbox multiplayer games exist and are doing rather well. There are fewer at the scale of 'Massive' but the rule sets could easily apply.
Its like someone is talking about the lack of existence of the very games I play.....a little hard to digest.
..why they're popularity is growing with players who only wish to join up and fight other groups of players for pieces of land. ....
that is NOT the kind of game I am talking about nor does it sound like a PVE game. I think maybe I am just not following you but I think your right that I have it wrong
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
In a nutshell, it's not enough to simply have an open world PvP MMO. It has to be a well-designed and executed open world PvP MMO.
The biggest detrimental factor to that IMO has been designing a PVP game how you would design a PVE MMORPG. ...
maybe I dont understand. PVE Open Sandbox multiplayer games exist and are doing rather well. There are fewer at the scale of 'Massive' but the rule sets could easily apply.
Its like someone is talking about the lack of existence of the very games I play.....a little hard to digest.
..why they're popularity is growing with players who only wish to join up and fight other groups of players for pieces of land. ....
that is NOT the kind of game I am talking about nor does it sound like a PVE game. I think maybe I am just not following you but I think your right that I have it wrong
My point about designing it like a PVE game was about devs who have tried to make PVP games with giant worlds with miles of nothingness, huge power gaps between players, as well as using the environment as a leveling mechanism, grinding mobs to gain power...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In a nutshell, it's not enough to simply have an open world PvP MMO. It has to be a well-designed and executed open world PvP MMO.
The biggest detrimental factor to that IMO has been designing a PVP game how you would design a PVE MMORPG. ...
maybe I dont understand. PVE Open Sandbox multiplayer games exist and are doing rather well. There are fewer at the scale of 'Massive' but the rule sets could easily apply.
Its like someone is talking about the lack of existence of the very games I play.....a little hard to digest.
..why they're popularity is growing with players who only wish to join up and fight other groups of players for pieces of land. ....
that is NOT the kind of game I am talking about nor does it sound like a PVE game. I think maybe I am just not following you but I think your right that I have it wrong
WHy are you talking about PVE open world sandboxes when I was talking about what makes a good or bad PVP game?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's not the developers, people asked the same thing about DarkFall devs. These games die because of the rule set. Full Loot Open world PvP in a world where its reaaaaally hard to get anything in the first place.
Only a small percentage of people will even try games like this and an even smaller percentage will be any good at it, so that ends up being your player base, leaving not enough players to make it work.
There are lots and lots of people that want an FPS fantasy open world game like this or Darkfall, but not with the forced PvP full loot model. Oddly though no one has built one.
I remember trying Mortal online. That was a long time ago so hard to remember much at all.
However i can point to one problem that plagues a LOT of developers games.It failed to keep me interested early on.This means i never got to see all the game offers but when i get really bored,i just quit as i am sure is the same for others.
TSW was another such game,TESO another so many are just so boring crap out of the gate,i lose interest.Even Wow lost me right away,i start in some small caravan location with a couple NPC's with a yellow marker over their head,,,pffft boring 101 ,why would i continue playing?
When i fell in love with my fave mmorpg it was because right out of the gate level 1 !!!! i was killed often , i could feel the challenging gameplay.Everyone was soon grouping and that was because going it alone was TOO hard,so the game captured me instantly.Almost every single game i try now,it is incredibly EASY,i could play early levels with my eyes closed and that bores the heck out of me.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Think of it like this,you are trying to mix drinking with a friend and having some fun chat with gunslinging,trying to kill everyone around you.It does NOT work and NEVER will,how could you have a friendly chat with a few beers and have the guy next to you trying to shoot you with a gun? I hope my analogy sort of explains the problem trying to have pvp with PVE.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The ideas behind open world PvP, even with full loot, are feasible.
The thing that many people don't seem to understand is that there's a difference between delivering on a concept, and doing a *good job* with it.
I've had a craving for lasagna lately. So, if someone hands me a plate of lasagna, that doesn't automatically mean "well, I got what I was craving, so all is good". The lasagna could suck. It could be poorly seasoned, the pasta could be under/over cooked, the cheese could be bad, etc. My craving for a plate of lasagna will not have been satisfied, despite having been given a plate of it.
Same thing here, the problem is not that the idea is bad - there is a demographic who enjoy that kind of experience. The problem is that the games are poorly designed/executed.
For me, no one has done the open world PvP with loot thing better than Lineage 2 in its heyday (pre GoD, between Chronicle 1 and Interlude, in particular). Notwithstanding the botting problems, the PvP and PvE in that game was well intertwined and balanced, as each supported the other. The looting, at first, was pretty harsh, as you could drop entire armor pieces upon death. Over time, I think they realized that, with how difficult it was to obtain higher grade gear, people were less willing to take the risk of losing it. So, they adjusted the rules for dropping gear to only happening if someone went Red/Chaotic with 5 or more PK's on them. This made people more willing to go out and PvP (or even PvE) without fear of losing their gear, but kept the risk in being a career criminal type.
In a nutshell, it's not enough to simply have an open world PvP MMO. It has to be a well-designed and executed open world PvP MMO.
And by many accounts, there are people who love MO's combat; it's exactly what they enjoy. For a lot of people, Darkfall's gameplay is exactly what they enjoy, despite the criticism from others. So, who is anyone else to tell them they're wrong?
Why you gotta necro a 6 month old thread? This games forum is as dead as the game is, let's all leave it in peace to die the slow painful death it deserves...
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
We hear a lot of people crying for sandbox mmo's. How they are going to save the genre and complex crafting systems. This game has exactly those elements yet seems to be failing miserably. Extremely complex crafting and sandbox out of the yingyang. You can just start building a town anywhere so long as you can stop other players from trying to kill you during the process.
Is it the pvp element that causes sandbox players to just say bleh? Do people just hate this develpoer? I can't figure out why everyone is looking for some kind of sandbox/crafting savior mmo and completely ignore this title. This game should be a sandbox players dream come true.
I found the game to be absolutely incredible up until they did that expansion where solo was barely viable and all the clans turtled up in their towns.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I think many players claim they want this type of game. However once they play this type of game and lose all their stuff, they quickly change their tune.
People will blame it on the developers. However I would venture that it has more to having their asses handed to them and having all their pixels taken away to be the real reason. Especially when you spend hours acquiring said pixels.
I think many players claim they want this type of game. However once they play this type of game and lose all their stuff, they quickly change their tune.
People will blame it on the developers. However I would venture that it has more to having their asses handed to them and having all their pixels taken away to be the real reason. Especially when you spend hours acquiring said pixels.
Absolutely. If I can't limit my risk to accepable levels, no way will i play.
EVE does a great job of providing me that option hence I keep playing.
Another non starter for this type of game, action combat.
Some of us are old and slow, AC holds little appeal. Besides, its just too damn "busy."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think many players claim they want this type of game. However once they play this type of game and lose all their stuff, they quickly change their tune.
People will blame it on the developers. However I would venture that it has more to having their asses handed to them and having all their pixels taken away to be the real reason. Especially when you spend hours acquiring said pixels.
Had a similar conversation to this last night, about how many people are either too attached to 'pixels', and can't bear the thought of losing their stuff, or are just sore losers IRL and can't stand any outcome where they're not the winner.
They're simply not wired for that kind of experience. Which is OK. No game is for everyone. But when they go on forums and start saying "these games suck and shouldn't be made because you can lose your stuff when you're killed", well... that's just them projecting their own preferences as some iron-clad Rule of Game Design.
Too many people these days have trouble understanding there's a world beyond their own nose, and not everyone enjoys the same things they do.
Is it the pvp element that causes sandbox players to just say bleh?
Basically yes. Granted the game is really clunky and looks terrible, the main problem is the FFA PVP with no alignment system.
FFA PVP won't work in modern games, if you have PvP it needs to be meaningful and there should be a solid and comprehensive alignment system that prevents widespread griefing (better known as the kill on sight mentality).
No sandbox has been a success so far because they all use the flawed FFA PVP System, but devs still don't get it.
I think its because the idea of a sandbox game sounds good but when player get into the game. They cry its not quality enough. I hear some of the dumbest discriptions of what a sandbox game is. For some its PvP everywhere and full loot. Done. They get to their new sandbox game and quickly start looking for themepark features. Most people are clueless to what sandbox really is and how to play in a sandbox.
No sandbox has been a success so far because they all use the flawed FFA PVP System, but devs still don't get it.
EVE Online.
Which is successful more than most because they put rules and controls around PVP.
The more controls you put in, or means to allow players to determine their risk level, the more popular your game will be with a larger audience.
I firmly believe EVE would have a larger player base if CCP would just have made high sec safer than it is, but then it would spoil the fun for the players who enjoy preying on others.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No sandbox has been a success so far because they all use the flawed FFA PVP System, but devs still don't get it.
EVE Online.
Which is successful more than most because they put rules and controls around PVP.
The more controls you put in, or means to allow players to determine their risk level, the more popular your game will be with a larger audience.
I firmly believe EVE would have a larger player base if CCP would just have made high sec safer than it is, but then it would spoil the fun for the players who enjoy preying on others.
Pretty sure many CCP devs are part of this group.
That it isn't more successful doesn't negate the fact that it was successful.
But you point out a very big reason for its success, which goes back to UO's Trammel. In a PVP focused MMO where there are other activities, the 80% or so of players engaging in the other activities need an option to do so with protection against interference of those activities by PVP combat.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The reason for this title's lack of success, underfunding and low production values (at least at launch) are right up at the top of the list from what I've read.
Funding was not really the biggest issue as much as it was lack of competence starting from managing MO's project itself really. Visuals require money, mechanics require skills and that was the missing part here (skills or rather devs and management not refusing to improve them).
I am quite certain that if MO had graphics and animation quality the way it had but still game mechanics working as intended, competent management ad no Discord then things could be very different.
When I played this game the problems were the very bad coding and use of stock UE models. As far as I am aware you can still see those ingame, if you download Unreal Engine and place a stock house it's exactly the same as MO's housing. It does have the features people crave but it's implemented poorly and riddled with bugs.
Comments
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's not the developers, people asked the same thing about DarkFall devs. These games die because of the rule set. Full Loot Open world PvP in a world where its reaaaaally hard to get anything in the first place.
Only a small percentage of people will even try games like this and an even smaller percentage will be any good at it, so that ends up being your player base, leaving not enough players to make it work.
There are lots and lots of people that want an FPS fantasy open world game like this or Darkfall, but not with the forced PvP full loot model. Oddly though no one has built one.
That was a long time ago so hard to remember much at all.
However i can point to one problem that plagues a LOT of developers games.It failed to keep me interested early on.This means i never got to see all the game offers but when i get really bored,i just quit as i am sure is the same for others.
TSW was another such game,TESO another so many are just so boring crap out of the gate,i lose interest.Even Wow lost me right away,i start in some small caravan location with a couple NPC's with a yellow marker over their head,,,pffft boring 101 ,why would i continue playing?
When i fell in love with my fave mmorpg it was because right out of the gate level 1 !!!! i was killed often , i could feel the challenging gameplay.Everyone was soon grouping and that was because going it alone was TOO hard,so the game captured me instantly.Almost every single game i try now,it is incredibly EASY,i could play early levels with my eyes closed and that bores the heck out of me.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
YES pvp is a problem.
Think of it like this,you are trying to mix drinking with a friend and having some fun chat with gunslinging,trying to kill everyone around you.It does NOT work and NEVER will,how could you have a friendly chat with a few beers and have the guy next to you trying to shoot you with a gun?
I hope my analogy sort of explains the problem trying to have pvp with PVE.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
People will blame it on the developers. However I would venture that it has more to having their asses handed to them and having all their pixels taken away to be the real reason. Especially when you spend hours acquiring said pixels.
EVE does a great job of providing me that option hence I keep playing.
Another non starter for this type of game, action combat.
Some of us are old and slow, AC holds little appeal. Besides, its just too damn "busy."
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They're simply not wired for that kind of experience. Which is OK. No game is for everyone. But when they go on forums and start saying "these games suck and shouldn't be made because you can lose your stuff when you're killed", well... that's just them projecting their own preferences as some iron-clad Rule of Game Design.
Too many people these days have trouble understanding there's a world beyond their own nose, and not everyone enjoys the same things they do.
Granted the game is really clunky and looks terrible, the main problem is the FFA PVP with no alignment system.
FFA PVP won't work in modern games, if you have PvP it needs to be meaningful and there should be a solid and comprehensive alignment system that prevents widespread griefing (better known as the kill on sight mentality).
No sandbox has been a success so far because they all use the flawed FFA PVP System, but devs still don't get it.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The more controls you put in, or means to allow players to determine their risk level, the more popular your game will be with a larger audience.
I firmly believe EVE would have a larger player base if CCP would just have made high sec safer than it is, but then it would spoil the fun for the players who enjoy preying on others.
Pretty sure many CCP devs are part of this group.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But you point out a very big reason for its success, which goes back to UO's Trammel. In a PVP focused MMO where there are other activities, the 80% or so of players engaging in the other activities need an option to do so with protection against interference of those activities by PVP combat.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I am quite certain that if MO had graphics and animation quality the way it had but still game mechanics working as intended, competent management ad no Discord then things could be very different.