PIPE dreams

Palladin · January 2017

I have been disappointed some many times in the past few years.

Shadowbane - flop
Vanguard - flop
Daggerfall - flop

My opinion is that any game with full on open world pvp will not attract enough mainstream gamers to be profitable.
One of the best pvp systems I have seen is in a game called Fallen Earth. Full on pvp is restricted to large areas of the maps call conflict regions(CR). All the best crafting materials are in these CRs. The CRs can be conquered and owned by player factions. When the CRs are not owned they have elite level mobs that control them. The incentive to engage in pvp was to have access to materials which are used in crafting end game gear. I thought it was a great system and still occasionally log in and play the game.

Crowfall - wait and see what it delivers. I really hope this game can deliver because right not I don't have anything engaging to play.

ste2000 · January 2017

Vanguard flopped but it wasn't exactly PvP.

Apart from that, I agree with you, in general open PvP doesn't really work on MMORPG, safe few exceptions.
But I have high expectations on Crowfall, I hope it proves us both wrong.

Tiller · January 2017

I just feel like the devs feel PvP PKrs are more important than the PvE players when it comes to this game, yet they hope they can appeal to PvErs for the much needed canon fodder that will keep hungry PKrs fed and happy. Seems like a terrible approach to a game; bait PVErs in to be meat shields xD, and I doubt it will do as well as they hope.

acidblood · January 2017

Tiller said:

I just feel like the devs feel PvP PKrs are more important than the PvE players when it comes to this game, yet they hope they can appeal to PvErs for the much needed canon fodder that will keep hungry PKrs fed and happy. Seems like a terrible approach to a game; bait PVErs in to be meat shields xD, and I doubt it will do as well as they hope.

I get the same feeling, and am yet to see anything decent on the PvE side (having a few mobs != PvE), so no idea how they plan to compete with the likes of FFXIV, WoW, ESO, or even the dozens of F2P asian grinders.

I do wish them well though, as CF is at least something different, just worried there is going to be a total lack of content outside of PvP, and some basic gathering / crafting (that's main purpose is to let you do more PvP).

BurntCabbage · January 2017

why do you think SB flopped? wow was a juggernaut of a mmo at the time..then i would guess its fair to say everything flopped from then till now?

SB is probably one of the top 5 or 10 easily ,pvp systems and game around ..it didnt find its nitch because of wow and cod at that time

full pvp type games are a hard sell but always has their loyal fans to even try it out...even if its good in the eyes of "that crowd" it still more than likely wont be a huge seller no matter what because there isnt a player base high enough to attract a community like wow or w/e the top selling mmorpgs would be at the time

timing has ALOT to do with death of games and close downs..that dont mean all games are "flops"

SB was good for what it was..playing to crush..open world pvp with rare elements to make you powerful with castle building and territory wars and zero questing ...something that alot of games lack now days imo

SB was and still is a great pvp game

Arkade99 · January 2017

Tiller said:

I just feel like the devs feel PvP PKrs are more important than the PvE players when it comes to this game, yet they hope they can appeal to PvErs for the much needed canon fodder that will keep hungry PKrs fed and happy. Seems like a terrible approach to a game; bait PVErs in to be meat shields xD, and I doubt it will do as well as they hope.

I think you are confused. Crowfall is a PvP game. The devs have never tried to sell it as anything else. The PvE aspects such as harvesting and crafting are only there to support PvP. There are no quests. There are no dungeons. If you are interested in PvE, this game probably isn't for you. The devs have said they aren't trying to appeal to everyone.

Arkade99 · January 2017

acidblood said:

Tiller said:

I just feel like the devs feel PvP PKrs are more important than the PvE players when it comes to this game, yet they hope they can appeal to PvErs for the much needed canon fodder that will keep hungry PKrs fed and happy. Seems like a terrible approach to a game; bait PVErs in to be meat shields xD, and I doubt it will do as well as they hope.

I get the same feeling, and am yet to see anything decent on the PvE side (having a few mobs != PvE), so no idea how they plan to compete with the likes of FFXIV, WoW, ESO, or even the dozens of F2P asian grinders.

They have no intention of adding PvE elements to the game. Crowfall is 100% an open world PvP game. They aren't trying to compete with FFXIV, WoW or ESO. They are trying to fill a niche that they feel is under-represented in today's games.

bcbully · January 2017

Lots of great pve only games out there too. Landmark for example.

Kunai_Vax · January 2017

bcbully said:

Lots of great pve only games out there too. Landmark for example.

O.o

laxie · January 2017

Next to the obvious PvP, there is a lot of crafting, land ownership and decorating. I personally think there will be alternatives to PvP combat. The devs come across as appreciative of the need for non-PvP features. In the recent livestream, they spent a lot of time talking about all of the home decorating options, as well as building up your own Eternal Kingdom.

They mentioned an interest in strong PvE monsters that would drop rare crafting ingredients. Although that is definitely not the primary focus. That said, PvE zones rich in content is not something the game is about.

The intention (as far as I can tell, I could be wrong) is not for toxic players to feed on unsuspecting crafters. You will have "safe zones" with guards, combined with complete control over the rules in your own kingdom. Then you will have a selection of Campaigns with different rulesets, so you'll be able to choose exactly how you want combat to work - from big faction vs faction, to hectic free for all.

Palladin · January 2017

Seems to be this game is slated to become one big FRAGFEST. This is why ALL open world PVP games in the past have failed. Frag fest games can not attract and hold a solid player base.

Octagon7711 · January 2017

Make it worth their while and the PvE'rs will come. Give rewards that match the risk of not doing what they logged in to do that day, if attacked. And like L2, provide instant escape scrolls and alternative leveling/questing spots to go to without being camped by the same PK'r until they are forced to logout or get friends to hunt for the guy instead of what they originally wanted to do in the first place. Give me the option of a quest that flags me for PvP. There are way too many games out there I can play now that separate the two and give me the opportunity to do either one when I want to.

Kunai_Vax · January 2017

They were talking about having a crafting system and economy that rivals Eve online. If they manage to pull that off then i'd imagine it would draw in a lot of PVE'ers who just want to focus on that type of gameplay and probably wont have to be forced into PVP much.

acidblood · February 2017

Arkade99 said:

acidblood said:

Tiller said:

I just feel like the devs feel PvP PKrs are more important than the PvE players when it comes to this game, yet they hope they can appeal to PvErs for the much needed canon fodder that will keep hungry PKrs fed and happy. Seems like a terrible approach to a game; bait PVErs in to be meat shields xD, and I doubt it will do as well as they hope.

I get the same feeling, and am yet to see anything decent on the PvE side (having a few mobs != PvE), so no idea how they plan to compete with the likes of FFXIV, WoW, ESO, or even the dozens of F2P asian grinders.

They have no intention of adding PvE elements to the game. Crowfall is 100% an open world PvP game. They aren't trying to compete with FFXIV, WoW or ESO. They are trying to fill a niche that they feel is under-represented in today's games.

I get that, but as the general tone of the thread suggests, they appear to going for a very niche market, namely PvPers who also like to craft and play house...

Tiller · February 2017

Arkade99 said:

Tiller said:

I just feel like the devs feel PvP PKrs are more important than the PvE players when it comes to this game, yet they hope they can appeal to PvErs for the much needed canon fodder that will keep hungry PKrs fed and happy. Seems like a terrible approach to a game; bait PVErs in to be meat shields xD, and I doubt it will do as well as they hope.

I think you are confused. Crowfall is a PvP game. The devs have never tried to sell it as anything else. The PvE aspects such as harvesting and crafting are only there to support PvP. There are no quests. There are no dungeons. If you are interested in PvE, this game probably isn't for you. The devs have said they aren't trying to appeal to everyone.

And yet, they have made comments multiple times on how important it was to have PvE players in the game and how they wanted to appeal to them. Either way this game will flop and fail; it's just not appealing enough for even mainstream PvPs to stick with after the initial launch excitement dies down. I've been around long enough to see the signs and have seen this play out over and over again.

Fallen Earth and Chronicles of Spellborn should also be added to the OPs list

Thing is PvP in MMOs sucks to most mainstream audiences.

Reasons why PvP MMOs will never do well?

FPS shooters have more engaging PvP (CS-GO-Battlefront-TF2) You die, you jump back in, no fixing broken shit, curing wounds, having to run back 2 miles, nothing. Just jump in and play.

Survival games with first person combat (H1-Z1-PUB), Survive for as long as you can, still more fun.

MOBA's (DOTA2-LoL) have more engaging and fun mechanics. MMO like skills, yet none of the needless MMO mechanics.

PvPcentric MMOs will never be as mainstream as PvE MMOs because of the huge time investment and learning curve to be competitive in them.

Only a few flunkies or "stuck in their ways" players go to OWPvP MMOs to PvP these days. That's about it. Even Raph Koster is out of touch; he thinks PvP MMOs are the future. I'm not seeing it. He must have found a time machine to 30 years ago. But then again he hasn't contributed to anything of quality in the gaming industry for years now.

If you want to have PvP in MMOs, it must be either separate the games, or have a fluid transition between the two play styles allowing players to jump in and out easily with no risk. That's the way it is. This game may do well at first, but sadly within a year I imagine it will pretty much fall by the wayside.

Arkade99 · February 2017

Tiller said:

Arkade99 said:

Tiller said:

I just feel like the devs feel PvP PKrs are more important than the PvE players when it comes to this game, yet they hope they can appeal to PvErs for the much needed canon fodder that will keep hungry PKrs fed and happy. Seems like a terrible approach to a game; bait PVErs in to be meat shields xD, and I doubt it will do as well as they hope.

I think you are confused. Crowfall is a PvP game. The devs have never tried to sell it as anything else. The PvE aspects such as harvesting and crafting are only there to support PvP. There are no quests. There are no dungeons. If you are interested in PvE, this game probably isn't for you. The devs have said they aren't trying to appeal to everyone.

And yet, they have made comments multiple times on how important it was to have PvE players in the game and how they wanted to appeal to them.

They have? You'll have to point out those quotes, because I've never seen them despite following this game since before the Kickstarter.

nurso · February 2017

Palladin said:

One of the best pvp systems I have seen is in a game called Fallen Earth. Full on pvp is restricted to large areas of the maps call conflict regions(CR). All the best crafting materials are in these CRs. The CRs can be conquered and owned by player factions. When the CRs are not owned they have elite level mobs that control them. The incentive to engage in pvp was to have access to materials which are used in crafting end game gear.

In Crowfall "conflict regions" are called campaigns, and safe-zones are called Eternal Kingdoms. PvP in CF is restricted to campaigns, which have the "best crafting materials" in it. Players can't 'own' a whole campaign, although they can build outposts and fortresses to secure resource nodes ... and those are needed, because in CF you need "access to materials which are used in crafting end game gear".

Palladin said:

This is why ALL open world PVP games in the past have failed.

EVE Online flopped?

Tiller said:

And yet, they have made comments multiple times on how important it was to have PvE players in the game and how they wanted to appeal to them. Either way this game will flop and fail; it's just not appealing enough for even mainstream PvPs to stick with after the initial launch excitement dies down.

Players which 'do' PvE are not automatically PvE-players. Yes, PvE exists in CF, but not for progression; PvE is meant for gathering (bonus) resources and to inflict a sense of urgency when the campaign is dying.
Also, it doesn't matter if CF is appealing for the mainstream, because the game isn't designed to sustain itself by having a mass-audience. It's a niche game, build to survive within a narrow habitat, like desert flowers

Palladin · February 2017

It is possible to engage PvE players in a PvP world . It is possible to have PvP between PvE players.

PvP vs PvP = direct combat between players.
PvE vs PvE = competition for resources.

When a city is being sieged it is the flow of resources that will determine how long that city can maintain its defences.

My vision of a city siege would be having the PvPers and the PvEers engaging in their prefered play style. The PvE environment around the city becomes the first line of defence to be breached. After all one must subdue the surrounding areas to get to the walls of the city right. The first battle for a city could be one of resources. PvEers could be outside the rule set for PvP thus the game would attract the PvE community and the game would then become much more attractive to a vastly larger player base.

Seige resources could come from two sources home city of attacker, local resource points(Forage).

Home resource - would have to be moved to the besieged city via caravan which in turn would be open to PvP attack and could either be taken or destroyed.

Foraged resource - though is may take longer it would be less risky and could be applied to siege nodes as soon as collected. This way PvE players could be in the warfare area and enjoy the struggle with his fellow clan mates

I think a system like this would make use of PvE players and they would enjoy the game far more and feel they are pulling their own weight in the struggle for the existence of the city.

Arkade99 · February 2017

Palladin said:

My vision of a city siege would be having the PvPers and the PvEers engaging in their prefered play style. The PvE environment around the city becomes the first line of defence to be breached. After all one must subdue the surrounding areas to get to the walls of the city right. The first battle for a city could be one of resources. PvEers could be outside the rule set for PvP thus the game would attract the PvE community and the game would then become much more attractive to a vastly larger player base.

Your vision is not the vision of the people making the game. There will be competition for resources going on all the time, not just during sieges. People will be fighting over those resources. There won't be any safe places in a campaign. There won't be players in a campaign who can't be attacked.

They aren't trying to attract the PvE community. They aren't trying to attract a vastly larger player base. By their own words, this is intended to be a niche game for PvPers. The PvE activities that exist in the game are there only to support and promote PvP.

If you want to play Crowfall and be completely safe from attack, you can stay in the Eternal Kingdoms and try to be a crafter/trader. If you join a campaign, you will be fair game to anyone not in your faction and/or guild.

Sarla · August 2017

Palladin said:

I have been disappointed some many times in the past few years.

Shadowbane - flop
Vanguard - flop
Daggerfall - flop

My opinion is that any game with full on open world pvp will not attract enough mainstream gamers to be profitable.
One of the best pvp systems I have seen is in a game called Fallen Earth. Full on pvp is restricted to large areas of the maps call conflict regions(CR). All the best crafting materials are in these CRs. The CRs can be conquered and owned by player factions. When the CRs are not owned they have elite level mobs that control them. The incentive to engage in pvp was to have access to materials which are used in crafting end game gear. I thought it was a great system and still occasionally log in and play the game.

Crowfall - wait and see what it delivers. I really hope this game can deliver because right not I don't have anything engaging to play.

Shadowbane was awesome, I had so much fun playing that for years.

Fallen Earth, was pretty good system idea and was fun, especially against players with aim bots LOL

xpiher · August 2017

There are worlds were FFA PvP doesn't exist, where PvP is turned off in large sections of the game, where PvP is only factional, etc.

xpiher · August 2017

Arkade99 said:

acidblood said:

Tiller said:

I just feel like the devs feel PvP PKrs are more important than the PvE players when it comes to this game, yet they hope they can appeal to PvErs for the much needed canon fodder that will keep hungry PKrs fed and happy. Seems like a terrible approach to a game; bait PVErs in to be meat shields xD, and I doubt it will do as well as they hope.

I get the same feeling, and am yet to see anything decent on the PvE side (having a few mobs != PvE), so no idea how they plan to compete with the likes of FFXIV, WoW, ESO, or even the dozens of F2P asian grinders.

They have no intention of adding PvE elements to the game. Crowfall is 100% an open world PvP game. They aren't trying to compete with FFXIV, WoW or ESO. They are trying to fill a niche that they feel is under-represented in today's games.

Ahh, pretty sure you are wrong. While it is NOT marketed as anything other than a kingdom building game, they DO plan on having some good PvE elements. There WILL be materials used for crafting that you can ONLY get from monsters, some of them rare.

xpiher · August 2017

Arkade99 said:

Palladin said:

My vision of a city siege would be having the PvPers and the PvEers engaging in their prefered play style. The PvE environment around the city becomes the first line of defence to be breached. After all one must subdue the surrounding areas to get to the walls of the city right. The first battle for a city could be one of resources. PvEers could be outside the rule set for PvP thus the game would attract the PvE community and the game would then become much more attractive to a vastly larger player base.

Your vision is not the vision of the people making the game. There will be competition for resources going on all the time, not just during sieges. People will be fighting over those resources. There won't be any safe places in a campaign. There won't be players in a campaign who can't be attacked.

They aren't trying to attract the PvE community. They aren't trying to attract a vastly larger player base. By their own words, this is intended to be a niche game for PvPers. The PvE activities that exist in the game are there only to support and promote PvP.

If you want to play Crowfall and be completely safe from attack, you can stay in the Eternal Kingdoms and try to be a crafter/trader. If you join a campaign, you will be fair game to anyone not in your faction and/or guild.

As stated above, there will be campaign worlds that are purely factional based PvP where giant largely safe zones exist ala EvE Corp space.

FlyByKnight · August 2017

PVE elements for PVP/competitive players. What's hard to understand about this?

Sure you can craft/trade 100% of the time, but I think that's an extreme case and more power to those who would dedicate to supplying their faction/guild with good items. This doesn't dilute the fact that the game is powered by player versus player narrative. Everything outside of EK will be contested in some shape or form. Gathering, mob hunting = contested = PVP.

Complain about OWPVP not meant for MMORPG elsewhere. This thing is happening. There's no crying allowed.

bcbully · August 2017

Palladin said:

I have been disappointed some many times in the past few years.

Shadowbane - flop
Vanguard - flop
Daggerfall - flop

My opinion is that any game with full on open world pvp will not attract enough mainstream gamers to be profitable.
One of the best pvp systems I have seen is in a game called Fallen Earth. Full on pvp is restricted to large areas of the maps call conflict regions(CR). All the best crafting materials are in these CRs. The CRs can be conquered and owned by player factions. When the CRs are not owned they have elite level mobs that control them. The incentive to engage in pvp was to have access to materials which are used in crafting end game gear. I thought it was a great system and still occasionally log in and play the game.

Crowfall - wait and see what it delivers. I really hope this game can deliver because right not I don't have anything engaging to play.

OP PVE centric MMORPGs are dead. They've been dead for awhile now.

Tiller · August 2017

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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey