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Why have no games copied Ragnarok Online gear system?
Slheyas
Member UncommonPosts: 83
For those who don't know, let me explain briefly.
In Ragnarok online the amount of gear that is available is relatively limited. A few dozen armors, weapons, etc. Which are all shared, there are only very few class exclusive pieces of equipment, some have restrictions (Casters can't wear heavy armors) but most don't other than level restrictions. And most come with either a slotted or unslotted version (an upgrade slot).
What made things very interesting though was the card system. EVERY single monster dropped a card, which had an unique effect. All cards are restricted to a certain category of gear (helm, accessory, weapon) etc but otherwise there are no restrictions of level or anything.
Effects are various :
-Simple increased damage versus a certain monster race, element or size
-Imbuing your armor with a specific element to gain resistances and even sometimes status immunities
-Stat boosts
-Chances to inflict status effects
-Resistances against certain elements, sizes, races, status effects
Nothing out of the ordinary so far right? Well what made it truly great. Is that the really good stuff wasn't only available from end game monsters. Many very low level monsters drop good cards, and many low level monsters drop good gear as well. So building your end game gear is something that can be down right from the start. And the card system makes it so every single piece of slotted gear (well maybe not some weapons) can see use. Want plain fire resistance but don't need armor? Just stick that Pasana card (makes your armor fire element) in that super weak level 1 armor and it'll work just fine.
MMOs nowadays are just about replacing gear every few levels and I hate that. I hate knowing that stuff I get is gonna be useful only for a ridiculously short time. Even end-game gear ends up being replaced with updates. Ragnarok Online never had that problem, sure some items are much better than others, but nothing ever became completely obsolete as long as it has slots.
It's such a simple system too, I can't even figure out why devs have never tried something similar. I am sure it'd be received rather well. Any RO player know how amazing and rewarding it feels to get a card drop after all.
Thoughts?
In Ragnarok online the amount of gear that is available is relatively limited. A few dozen armors, weapons, etc. Which are all shared, there are only very few class exclusive pieces of equipment, some have restrictions (Casters can't wear heavy armors) but most don't other than level restrictions. And most come with either a slotted or unslotted version (an upgrade slot).
What made things very interesting though was the card system. EVERY single monster dropped a card, which had an unique effect. All cards are restricted to a certain category of gear (helm, accessory, weapon) etc but otherwise there are no restrictions of level or anything.
Effects are various :
-Simple increased damage versus a certain monster race, element or size
-Imbuing your armor with a specific element to gain resistances and even sometimes status immunities
-Stat boosts
-Chances to inflict status effects
-Resistances against certain elements, sizes, races, status effects
Nothing out of the ordinary so far right? Well what made it truly great. Is that the really good stuff wasn't only available from end game monsters. Many very low level monsters drop good cards, and many low level monsters drop good gear as well. So building your end game gear is something that can be down right from the start. And the card system makes it so every single piece of slotted gear (well maybe not some weapons) can see use. Want plain fire resistance but don't need armor? Just stick that Pasana card (makes your armor fire element) in that super weak level 1 armor and it'll work just fine.
MMOs nowadays are just about replacing gear every few levels and I hate that. I hate knowing that stuff I get is gonna be useful only for a ridiculously short time. Even end-game gear ends up being replaced with updates. Ragnarok Online never had that problem, sure some items are much better than others, but nothing ever became completely obsolete as long as it has slots.
It's such a simple system too, I can't even figure out why devs have never tried something similar. I am sure it'd be received rather well. Any RO player know how amazing and rewarding it feels to get a card drop after all.
Thoughts?
Comments
For instance a Sniper is the only class that can set trap, slowing down enemy progress in your fortress. Bards are the only one able to reduce cast time and cooldown. Paladins are the only one able to take damage in the stead of another player. So while a Sniper is inefficient as a damage dealer in GvG it's still a desirable class to have on board for the other things it's bring. The Soul Linker class for instance has absolutely NO purpose other than buffing in GvG since its attack skills only work on monsters. But the buffs are so powerful you still want one.
But if we plainly compared 1vs1 yeah some classes are straight up better, but that has never been the focus of the game really. The Champion class has a skill that can easily OKHO any classes (as it can easily deal more than 10x the max hp most classes can have) for instance, which makes it ridiculously OP in 1vs1, but in a GvG situation it's more balanced by the fact the skill in question has a considerable penalty that makes spamming it impossible (without the help of other classes anyway).
Having mobs that drop stuff to upgrade gear in not a bad idea as such. The "every mob drop a upgrade" sounds pretty annoying though, think how many trashmobs modern games have, letting them all drop loot besides possible a few coppers will fill everyones inventory with junk fast or mean that you will need tons of trashcards to upgrade your gear.
With some tweaking the system could be pretty good, but let only bosses drop the ups or have a game with fewer mobs that are harder to kill.
But it certainly makes more sense then just throwing away that mastercrafted sword that was so great a few hours ago, it is not like you would throw away Excalibur, Thyrfing or the sword of Mars because you gained 4 levels since you got them.
But the whole problem is a fix to solve that rather weird level and item power mechanics most MMOs use based on D&D. If you instead based a MMO on Runequest or Shadowrun you would get power-up mechanics based on characters instead of gear, but then while that might be just as fun it isn't as addictive.
For instance if you want a shield for PvP, you go kill a bunch of Thara Frogs, cause they're the one that drop the card that gives 30% less damage from Demi-Humans, the race players are considered to be. Once you drop that, you stick it in a shield you like for X reason and you're good to go, no need to ever replace your shield, it's a one time deal. And then if you want a shield for other races well you go hunt the monster that drops the card that gives defense against those, and tadaa.
Ragnarok Online used a weight based inventory and had no quantity limit, so I guess it was more suited for mass monster genocide though, that said every item that's not a piece of gear is stackable, so even a size limit wouldn't be a big issue.
Runes of Magic did something very similar s you would take gear and imbue the stats onto runes which then you could imbue that Rune onto new gear.However it would be limited in that obviously the best stat gear would drop at higher levels.
I really do like the idea of starting right away on low level mobs,it doesn't force everyone to race to end game which i can't stand in game designs right now.
One problem though,could one not just farm what they need on low levels and be o/p?I do like the idea of normal mobs dropping still,it also gets us out of this RAID syndrome,another idea i detest in games.
All in all ,i like the idea and it sounds like it could be done all outside in the open world so need for this Dungeon crap at all,so yeah i like it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Did Ragnorok use interrupts and accuracy?How about ranged class did it actually use ammo,just curious if they kept the depth of the game throughout it's class designs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It never made you OP though, as most cards are very specific in their action. So if you get cards to kill a certain group of monsters, you'll hit them really freaking hard, but you won't do any bonus damage to other races. If you had to patience to get weapons for every types of monsters sure you could deal high damage to everything, but most people never bother with that. They farm the cards to kill other players, bosses and maybe a few races (for farming, or grinding) and no more.
Ragnarok Online does use elemental properties. You can enchant your weapons or use weapons with elemental attributes, spells have them too. Monsters are immune to some elements, weak to others, etc.
RO kinda uses interrupts, knockback and stuns could cancel casts for instance, but most monsters either don't use spells with cast time or insta-cast them, so it's either a matter of having prepared enough to tank it, have the stats to avoid it, or just move out of the way in the case of AoEs.
And yes, accuracy (and dodge) is in the game. Your ability to kill monsters is governed only by your stats and gear. A level 60 character that invested a lot in Dexterity and with good gear can kill very evasive level 80 monsters that could pose a threat to a capped character that didn't invest in Dex enough to hit them reliably.
(I quit after abyssea launched so I can't comment much on it)
Wizardry said: Some mmorpg(s) dated way before Ragnarok Online came into the picture, already had elemental properties and or heavily reliant on them in their battle system to progress. Dark Ages(Nexon) is one of such games.
Use ragnarok system you can't sell expansion boxes (WOW type ) cause you need player focus on new gears instead of reuse early gears .
while in modern cash shop , they need whales to renew the gears so more money going to they pocket .
Welcome to golden age of trap and trick . Golden age of gaming ? fffppp .
And basing progression of power-up cards instead of plain XP would be far more addictive. You can easily use stat requirement on gear instead of levl reqs, old Diablo did so with rather good success.
The only downside I can think of right now is that PvP would be rather unbalanced but then it generally is with the levelmechanics as well.
If you used that system together with lootable gear, possibly with power-ups for it as well you would hook the players like nothing we seen since Wow came out, people love the kick you get for looting stuff after all while no-one really cares about gaining another 100XP.
With B2P you could focus more on selling skins but the F2P thing is as usual a problem. You can certainly use pay2win as easy with this system as anything. And it is hard to get F2P players spend enough money in a game without making it pay2win unless you get additional income like box sales or a subscription fee but regular F2P games have the same problem.
Do you really think it would be hard to sell bosters with pay2win upgrade cards? whales would buy loads of them.
RO had a severe bot problem - some cards were so incredibly valuable that armies of bots would be hunting them.
RO was one of the first games to sell pay 2 win weapons meant to be used in the gvg fights.
Nothing good can come from copying this game in 2017.
Beyond that, the reasons vary by game. In a game like WoW where acquiring gear is largely the point of the game, for a player to have all the gear he wants has to be very rare, and swapping out new gear for old needs to be common.
If your real objection is to having to replace your gear every few levels, there are a number of games that don't do that to you:
In Guild Wars 1, you reach the level cap very quickly. Most gear requires you to be at the level cap, but you can equip such gear very early on.
In Uncharted Waters Online most personal gear doesn't have a level requirement at all. It's also readily tradeable and cannot become soulbound. That doesn't mean it's easy to get the gear you want, though.
In Blade and Soul, you keep your starter gear basically forever and level it up by feeding it other drops.
In Tree of Savior, level requirements are extremely granular. For example, there is gear that requires level 75 or higher, and gear that requires level 120 or higher, but nothing in between. If you swap out your gear every few levels, you'll mostly be swapping to gear that you could have equipped long ago.
I like the idea of enhancing something you already have, as long as the developer doesn't exploit the opportunity to cause inventory bloat with enhancement materials just to sell inventory expansions. Looking at you Blade and Soul, Skyforge, and probably most other F2P games.
If I created a themepark game it would be action adventure style over RPG. Just as well if things are going to be truly casual.
Gear would be more situational or feature based. Like warm gear to go go cold zones or grappling hook to get to a previously inaccessible area. You then have cosmetic gear that you can gain from raiding, crafting drops. Legendary drops of gear and crafting materials from hard rated and rare encounters, dungeons and raids.
As good as all fantasy themepark more or less use the same system copied and pasted from Everquest. The only thing that sometimes differ is that a few games don't have gear slots or attachments.
And if you must copy someone you could at least try to copy something different from most of the games, it isn't as RO wasn't popular.
It certainly would be better with an original system though.
A specific piece of gear would work in EQ, Wow, GW2 or almost any other game with little to no tweaking.
You did leave you the loophole about "good game designer" though, those are rare.
Here's Tree of Savior's list of gear slots, not counting things that are cosmetic:
Top
Bottom
Gloves
Shoes
Left Hand
Right Hand
Bracelets (2)
Necklace
Hair Costume 1
Hair Costume 2
Hair Costume 3
The "hair costume" pieces are not interchangeable (i.e., a hair costume 1 piece can't go in a hair costume 2 slot), nor are they purely cosmetic. If you want to add cosmetic items, then you add:
Costume
Hairstyle
Lens
Armband
Here's Elsword's list of gear slots:
Top
Bottom
Gloves
Shoes
Weapon
Top costume
Bottom costume
Gloves costume
Shoes costume
Weapon costume
Hair costume
Full body costume
Face (top)
Face (middle)
Face (bottom)
Top piece
Bottom piece
Ring
Necklace
The costume slots commonly do give stats, but they're relatively minor stats. Still, they're real gear pieces and make the "main" gear piece for a character not visible
Here's Uncharted Waters Online:
Armor
Head gear
Boots
Gloves
Weapon
Accessory
Sails (number varies by ship)
Cannon (number varies by ship)
Extra plating (number varies by ship)
Figurehead
Special
Here's Champions Online:
Primary offense
Secondary offense
Primary defense
Secondary defense
Primary utility
Secondary utility
Here's Neverwinter:
Armor
Head
Arms
Feet
Neck
Belt
Ring
Weapon
Off-hand
Artifact
Here's Guild Wars 2:
Chest
Legs
Hands
Feet
Head
Shoulders
Breathing Apparatus
Main Hand
Off Hand
Back
Amulet
Accessories (2)
Rings (2)
Here's Spiral Knights:
Armor
Helmet
Shield
Trinket (2)
Weapon (4)
No two of those are even remotely similar to each other, let alone identical. And none of them have a dedicated "male earring" slot, though some have one slot where an earring is one of the things that could go in that slot.
That's not cherry-picking, either. That's a list of all of the games that I've played for more than a couple of months over the course of the last several years.
Heck, the term 'accessory' practically sums up every possible object, real or supernatural, that you could put on your body. Calling it neck, wings, or hair costume doesn't change anything. The only reason to designate a slot as a helmet is to categorize and restrict how many items of a specific category can be equipped.