Originally posted by Zippy The point is he has said over and over the best gear will come from a variety of sources. Raiding will only be a small part of those sources.
That's not at all what the material I've quoted says, and you haven't provided a single quote supporting your claim that raiding will only be a small part of those sources. Even other Vanguard fans here don't agree with you, we've got a guy saying that the best gear must come from raids in an MMO.
You may even accuse them of lying which it appears you have already done above.
They engage in marketingspeak and careful phrasing, and sometimes change their minds later. If that's lying by your standards, then every game company's reps are lying by your standards.
But you cannot dispute this is their plan now.
I can and have. I have provided quotes backing my position, you haven't. When you're not falling over yourself to tell me how wrong I supposedly am, your own quotes even back me, like the one in the last bit of my response.
I don't see a problem with this plan at all. Many people get bored of different games endgames because they do the same thing over and over. Sigil is hoping to encourage variety and make the endgame more fun for everyone.
Unless they ditch their raid plans, it will not be fun for me at all. As it will not be fun for at least one person, it will not be fun for everyone.
Edit: In regards to your silky Venom quote. It is ia bit dated and also out of context. I believe Brad is talking about raid rewards being better during leveling not at endgame. He has said for a long time during the leveling process raids will drop better loot than, group drops which will be better than solo drops. Although I have not seen him address this recently.
Ahh, I see. So now if I find direct quotes supporting what I say, they're "dated and also out of context" even though you don't have anything more up-to-date to contradict me? I wasn't born yesterday.
Plus, you've just said it again - raids will drop better loot than groups, which will be better than solo, at least in the non-endgame part. Sounds like a plan for a raiding game to me, not a plan for a game which focuses on small group play or which supports all playstyles.
As you might recall the original plan was for the best endgame gear to come from raid resource drops involved with crafting, harvesting and diplomacy spheres to make the best gear.
So what you're saying is that I'm wrong about the best engame gear coming from raids, because it will actually come from something that drops from a raid but that I'll need a crafter, maybe some farming, and a reputation level to actuatually get the item? Think about what you're writing, I don't see any real difference between "the best endgame gear comes from raiding" and "the best endgame gear comes from an item that you get from raiding, then pass through a crafter, farm some stuff for, and have a reputation level for", it's still a raid drop.
I can and have. I have provided quotes backing my position, you haven't. When you're not falling over yourself to tell me how wrong I supposedly am, your own quotes even back me, like the one in the last bit of my response.
Edit: In regards to your silky Venom quote. It is ia bit dated and also out of context. I believe Brad is talking about raid rewards being better during leveling not at endgame. He has said for a long time during the leveling process raids will drop better loot than, group drops which will be better than solo drops. Although I have not seen him address this recently.
Ahh, I see. So now if I find direct quotes supporting what I say, they're "dated and also out of context" even though you don't have anything more up-to-date to contradict me? I wasn't born yesterday.
I Know its most likely pointless responding to your posts but I will give it one more try. What I don't understand is the hatred, self righteousness and the anger behind your posts. First you attack Angerr and now me for no reason. I find your posts and the anger and hatred towards anyone who has the nerve to disagree with you quite a bit disturbing . Your posts seem to more concerned with personally attacking other posters than any actual disscusion. If you want to discuss the game in a respectful, mature and calm tone I would be happy to do so. But I have no intention of arguing with some self righteous child who is just looking to start arguments.
Its not healthy to get so angry over a message board. You might want to take some time before responding to other peoples posts until you can calm yourself enough to say what you want to say without the anger. Life cannot be easy for you if this how you approach problems in your life. I am not attempting to talk down to you but rather I am quite concerned that you have become so upset at something so trivial. It would certainly be worth considering the cause of your behavior and what you can do to live your life with less anger.
Unfortunatley, I have not seen you offer anything in your posts besides speculation, opinons and insults to anyone that has the nerve to disagree with you. Oh and yes my quotes were much more recent than what you had to say. Your quote is from last year and was taken out of context. All of my quotes are recent from February to April.. Here is what Brad has said in regards to raiding and loot distribution at max level.
Originally posted by Aradune The majority of content, regardless of level range, is centered around the grouping experience, with the minority focused on more casual content and raid content."
Originally posted by Aradune
What's key here is that the best items should come from experiences where there was the greatest risk vs. reward and time commitment (plus, there's always luck -- being in the right place at the right time, etc.).
Some of the best items will come from conventional raiding (large groups of people participating in long contiguous adventures). Some will come from long adventures consisting of less people and more importantly, while a lot of time will have to be invested, the content will be such that all of that time doesn't have to be contiguous.
Some also will come from the other spheres, but much of the same applies: the best components harvested and then used later to craft the best items will be very rare and in very dangerous locations. Some of it may require long contiguous time commitments, while others will be obtainable by completing several shorter contiguous adventures.
So I guess I'm still not totally sure what exactly you are asking here....
Will you be able to collect ALL of the best gear in the game without going on conventional raids and/or without trading/buying gear obtained from conventional raids? No.
Will you be able to obtain some of the very best gear without particpating in conventional raids and/or buying gear obtained via conventional raiding? Absolutely.
If your desire is to be able to obtain any and all gear without ever having to raid or buy equipment obtained via raiding, then Vanguard may not be for you. But if you are content with obtaining some subset of the best gear without raiding or buying raid dropped equipment (or items created via crafting from harvested components obtained via raiding), then I think Vanguard will be fine for you.
Really, if you want the option of obtaining any item in the game period without buying/trading for it, you'll need to involve yourself in all aspects of the game, not just raiding. You'll need to level up in harvesting/crafting, level up in diplomacy, experience the higher end grouping dungeons and such, and also have the tenacity and patience to invest quite a bit of time in the game in general, as going on a high level adventure, whether group or raid oriented, doesn't guarantee that you will obtain that item you seek anyway. Someone else might get the item, or the item might not be available each and every time anyway, as perhaps the rare spawn that drops that item, or rare harvestable, just isn't around that night, or the quest that triggers a sequence of encounter segments that leads to that 'golden' boss mob might already be taken by another group, or even the mob or switch or item or whatever flags you and your group as being able to particpate on the encounter segment might not be 'up' either.
Bottom line: if you want it all, you have to be willing to particpate in all aspects of the game, especially if you are not willing to buy/trade and particpate in the player driven economy, and when I say 'all' of the game, that would include the raids as well.
No. Many of them will, but many will also be available to groups. Often the very best items will require a long time commitment, but these commitments shouldn't have to always be contiguous. In other words, say it requires 12 hours of adventuring to obtain a powerful item. In some extreme cases, this could require a raid, or even a group and it could take you all day to complete. In other cases, however, the 12 hours can be broken up into three 4 hour chunks, where the quest or encounter route for the item is broken up into fourths, such that after you achive 1/4 of the quest or route, you can save, re-group the next day, and then finish up another 3 hour chunk.
I've posted quite a bit on this months ago and encourage your and anyone intrerested to dig up the posts (some have been re-posted in this thread already -- thanks guys). In a nutshell, we want the best items to be available though a variety of routes: raids, long contiguous adventures, broken up adventures, trade skills, diplomacy, etc. The only potentially controversial aspect of this is that is likely that not ALL of the best items you might want will be availble through only one of these methods. If you are a person who wants ALL of the best stuff, you'll have to involve yourself in all of the above, including raiding and long contiguous adventures, even though the majority of content, including that which yeilds great rewards, will be group oriented.
Essentially, if you want it all (whether items or abilities or spells or whatever), you pretty much have to DO it all as well. I do stress, however, that to be a powerful and effective player, you don't have to do it all. What I'm talking about is the subset of players who, from a personal preference, decide they have to have all of the best gear of every type, for every situation, etc.
No, I think my posts were consistent, although perhaps not as clear as they could have been. Some of the best items will only be obtainabile via raiding, other best items through grouping, and others through special casual areas, and others through the other spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).
Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense:
1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high level group zone
2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone
3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3).
4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then also require a high level harvester to actually collect the the scales in the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to be able to use it and other components to actually create the Red Dragonscale Breastplate
5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that enables you access to the throne room in New Targonar may come from a series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items, and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy sphere.
Were a person to absolutely insist on obtaining all 5 of these hypothetical items above, he would have to either a. engage in all 5 activities to some significant extent, as well as work with others in most of the examples or b. buy/trade for them, assuming they are items that are tradable.
Notice how Pantastic hasnt responded to Zippy's last post. It totally destroy's anything he said thus far since zippy is quoting the CEO of Sigil. Everything Brad has said backs up what zippy is saying. Troll better next time Pan
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by angerrwell i read there wasn't going to be nodrop items....they changed it and i wasn't aware of it, so freaking sue me. you want a cookie?? at least I'm not going around making FALSE accusations and calling the Dev's liars because i want a game with absolutely no raiding at all.
You can dish it out but can't take it I guess, don't accuse someome of being lazy and not reading about the game if you want them to be all hugs and smiles in their response to you; I certainly wasn't any harsher on you than you were on me. And yes, you did make a false accusation - you said about me "its just kind of annoying when people accuse vanguard of being a raiding game simply because of who is making it, when they are to lazy to actually read about it before they make such accusations like this." As I've demonstrated by digging up the quotes, I have in fact "acutally read about it" before hand, and based my opinion on that not on "who is making it", the only one who was too lazy to actually read about the game was the one who thought that there would be no bind/nodrop in the game.
Plus, you seem to be the one accusing the devs of being liars, as I've provided direct quotes supporting what I've said yet you insist that I'm wrong. I've accused them of being misleading and engaging in marketingspeak, and if that qualifies as 'lying' in your book then pretty much every game company rep that publishes any information is 'lying' at one time or antoher.
i welcome a debate, i can take whatever argument you throw at me, i have no problem at all adminting when i am wrong witch i was. in the faq (witch i read some time ago) said that there will not be any no drop/soulbound items.
but see even though i am a fanboy i dont read every single post from the Dev's.....yes i missed one post where the Dev said they changed an aspect of the game that i already read about...witch btw you did not point out zippy did, so how does that make you any more informed than me?
you want quotes?? *sigh* alright then....
Originally posted by Pantastic once I discovered that it's really just another game of raiding endlessly, I completely lost interest.
you believe in your mind that this is what vanguard endgame will be...and this is what brad actually said it will be..
Originally posted by Aradune Mithara No, I think my posts were consistent, although perhaps not as clear as they could have been. SOME of the best items will only be obtainabile via raiding, other best items through grouping, and others through special casual areas, and others through the other spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).
Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense:
1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high level group zone
2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone
3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3).
4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then also require a high level harvester to actually collect the the scales in the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to be able to use it and other components to actually create the Red Dragonscale Breastplate
5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that enables you access to the throne room in New Targonar may come from a series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items, and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy sphere.
Were a person to absolutely insist on obtaining all 5 of these hypothetical items above, he would have to either a. engage in all 5 activities to some significant extent, as well as work with others in most of the examples or b. buy/trade for them, assuming they are items that are tradable.
and since you have so much knowlage about vanguard then you most certainly already read this quote, witch has been my argument all along.......call it what you want missleading/lying...w/e this is pretty much spelling it out exactly for you and if you still think the only way to get all the best items is by raiding (therefor making it a raidfest at endgame) indeed you are "calling him a liar" so to speak.
BTW i totally understand if you dont like to raid, but i respectfully and strongly disagree (going on what i have read) that vanguard will be " just another game of raiding endlessly".
Originally posted by Locithon Notice how Pantastic hasnt responded to Zippy's last post. It totally destroy's anything he said thus far since zippy is quoting the CEO of Sigil. Everything Brad has said backs up what zippy is saying. Troll better next time Pan
Time of zippy's post: 4:15. Time of your post pointing out that I haven't responded: 6:12. Do you really think that someome not responding to a post on a message board for all of 2 hours has some deep signficance? Good lord man, he spend more than twice that time before responding to my post this morning, so whatever my 'less than 2 hours nonresponse' means to you, it applies twice as much to Zippy. Please accept my sincere and abject apologies for not spending every waking moment of the day watching this thread on this message board for responses, it clearly should be a higher priority for me than games, work, housekeeping, and other activities I've engaged in.
Originally posted by Zippy I Know its most likely pointless responding to your posts but I will give it one more try. What I don't understand is the hatred, self righteousness and the anger behind your posts. First you attack Angerr and now me for no reason. I find your posts and the anger and hatred towards anyone who has the nerve to disagree with you quite a bit disturbing . Your posts seem to more concerned with personally attacking other posters than any actual disscusion.
Did you actually read what Angerr wrote to me? He said that I was lazy and that I was basing my opinion on who is making the game, not on reading anything. If someome wants to call me 'lazy' and accuse me of making stuff up, I'm not going to give them a hug when I demonstrate how they're completely wrong.
I'm not even sure what's supposed to be the 'attack' on you, is it just that anyone disagreeing with you and pointing out how your own words support my position qualifies as an attack to you?
You might want to take some time before responding to other peoples posts until you can calm yourself enough to say what you want to say without the anger.
The pals who you're acting all affronted on behalf of might want to take some time to calm themselves first; I've only responded in kind to people.
Life cannot be easy for you if this how you approach problems in your life. I am not attempting to talk down to you but rather I am quite concerned that you have become so upset at something so trivial.
Yes, my life is so terribly difficult because I responded to a guy on a messageboard who called me lazy and accused me of not reading information about the game in the some tone that he spoke to me in, I don't know how I could possibly make it through the day. Are you even more concerned about Angerr? Because he seems to actually be upset at me responding to his accusations of laziness and not reading about the game by turning them back on him.
Unfortunatley, I have not seen you offer anything in your posts besides speculation, opinons and insults to anyone that has the nerve to disagree with you. Oh and yes my quotes were much more recent than what you had to say.
This conversation is quite amusing; someome insults me, I turn it back on them, and somehow that means that all of my arguments and direct quotes disappeared, at least until you want to comment on my direct quotes of what the developers said, then my posts are more than speculation, opinions, and insults.
Note in your own quoted material: "If your desire is to be able to obtain any and all gear without ever having to raid or buy equipment obtained via raiding, then Vanguard may not be for you." That sums up my position; I do not have any desire whatsoever to set foot in a raid, and I have no idea to be a farmbot for some raid guild in order to gear up, if they'll even give up raid gear for anything but DKP. The dev's own words say that the game is not for me, and that you will need to raid or become a farmbot for raid guilds in order to gear up.
See, the thing is that quotes like "The majority of content, regardless of level range, is centered around the grouping experience, with the minority focused on more casual content and raid content," led me to believe that there would be some solo/tiny group content, but mostly group (like 4-10 people) content, and that the 'minority content' would not be something that you have to do, that you wouldn't have any need to raid or solo. But that's clearly not the case; you will need to raid or somehow convince a raid guild to hand over raid drops to someome with 0 DKP in order to gear up.
That pretty much sums up my response to the whole wall of text; his claim that the game won't literally require you to raid is true. But raiding is not really optional, as you'll need gear obtainable only in raids to get properly outfitted. So you'll either have to raid yourself or do some really huge amounts of farming to have enough money to convince loot-whores to take an item out of their DKP system, neither of which appeals to me. I suppose my statement is technically unture, so I'll amend it to "Vanguard is just another game where the endgame is about either raiding or about farming really huge amounts of materials and/or kissing the butts of raid guilds to gear up". Still not in the least appealing.
and yet pantastic, despite the fact that you have proven to yourself and us that you don't want to play VsoH, your still here, trolling the vanguard board...Why don't you pop on over to the DDO board.. Its got everything you are looking for and more importantly, if you sign up, it might just double their subscription count.
pantastic look, i appoligize...i didn't mean to insult you.....i was trying to talk in general when i said those things, i get tired of repeating myself over and over to people like you that think vanguard will be a huge raid fest.
i have already gave my reasons for disagreeing with you on this topic, and IMO very valid ones......i wasn't trying to insult you i shouldn't have been so harsh....but again my opinion and argument still stands.
Ok Phantastic, since here in the Vanguard boards we like to discuss things politely and in a constructive way, I don't want to give the impression that we are attacking someone just because he is criticising Vanguard.
The fact is, I personally, missed your point, and I am sorry if you feel attacked for no reason. So here is your chance to explain your thoughts if you care, and we will start from here.
Originally posted by ronan32 Vanguard is just wow with the difficulty turned up. Raid, raid and more raids with weak pvp on the side, sounds very like wow to me.
Originally posted by ronan32 Vanguard is just wow with the difficulty turned up. Raid, raid and more raids with weak pvp on the side, sounds very like wow to me.
If you ignore the player housing, boats, diplomacy, crafting, player made cities, vehicles, lack of instanced dungeons, focusing on grouping, realistic graphics, and many other things that make vanguard unique, then yes.
Apologies accepted, and I apologize you two too since I was reading things that were actually hostile to an idea as hostile to me. My main reason for posting originally was the hope that I'd be proven wrong, but it didn't work out that way (or, more accurately, I was technically wrong but not wrong enough to change my opinion of whether I'd like it).
I have played eq1, eq2, lineage 2, gw, wow, and rf online i was really hoping to play vanguard but i to am a solo player i like playing mmorpgs for the human contact making friends stoping to talk to some one out in the field and such talking makes things easyer as sometimes they know more than you and are willing to help you find what you are looking for but i dont want to group with most of them especially kids when you are tied to a group you always have to do what they want and you end up wasting a lot of time just goofing around trying to decide on where to go and what to do then you always have the kids wanting everything or saying all kinds of stupid things or getting you killed with stupid mistakes i dont mind grouping sometines with adults but i mostly solo its just a lot more fun for me i think that is why wow has done so well you can solo to the lvl cap i know this becouse i did it wow was so great of a game becouse of that i played that game long after capping out just setting up alts and playing them simply becouse i could solo i was also on a pve server so i didnt have to worry about being ganked or dropping armor i was really hoping vanguard was going to be like that but it seems like its not so unless things change i dont think i will play it ether i really wanted to play d&d online as well but from what i read no way i will play a group only game
developers are really missing the point when it comes to building games there are hundered of thousands of players maby even millions just like me we want to solo to the lvl cap but have the benifit of being around other players to chat ask for help when we need it we like to group some but play more than 50% of the game solo we dont like pvp so we dont want to be forced into it i think you will see the most popular games in the future will be from developers who get the point that its all about viriaty give the people what they want make games you can solo and/or group to the lvl cap have blue and pvp servers have easy and hard servers and plz stop screwing over the solo players lol we always get the short end of the deal when it comes to drops have crafting for people who want to craft just thnk about it most games have more than one server they could set up servers to cator to differant gamming types after all we are not all the same
i thnk games are replaceing content now with pvp they dont want to take the time and spend the money to add wonderful content and do reserch to make a great game any more most companys just want to make the most money with the least expence a really good game can make good with out haveing pvp i dont pvp in wow although i could i dont have to though thats my point wow cators to most of the gameing groups of people except for maby the really hard core gammers in which they are in the minority any way i have been playing for years and i still dont like a hard game i play to have fun and i play for content and graphics fun is the main thing one of the things i really didnt like about eq1 was there loot system it allowed for ninja looting very easy from what i read vanguard wont have a good looting system ether so that makes grouping even worse
bottom line is when developers finally figuer out that they should be catoring there games to all of the players insted of haveing that build it and they will come attitude they will do much much better and make so much more money sry for my spelling i have been up all night playing eq2 am really tired lol this is just my opinion but i think there are at least hundreds of thousands of players maby even millions who feel the same way as me wish they had spell check on these things lol
Loopywizard, your spelling is not a problem, but maybe the use of punctuation would help, it was really difficult to go through your post.
Anyway if I understood exactly, you want a solo game which give you the chance to interact with people and do stuff with them, you like the social part of the MMORPG, but you don't like to be forced to group or raid.
OK, Vanguard is not gonna cater for pure soloers, but it would be probably the most social game you could come across. In Vanguard there is no way you can progress if you are not good in socialising with people. Whatever sector of the game you are focusing in ( adventuring, crafting, trading), you will need to actively interact with other people in order to succed in anything.
Now if you are more of a soloer than a social person, Vanguard is not for you. But if you give priority to socialising and interacting with people over the soloing, then you should give Vanguard a shot.
Originally posted by Torchwood Just another game catering to powergamers. Nothing to see here.
Powergamering wouldn't be the main attraction for me actually.
I like the large seamless world for the sense of exploration and adventure.
Probably it will be nice to the have option to do casual (solo), small group and large raid content, along with crafting and diplomacy as well. Might be the sort of game you find yourself doing lots of things.
Originally posted by loopylizard I have played eq1, eq2, lineage 2, gw, wow, and rf online i was really hoping to play vanguard but i to am a solo player i like playing mmorpgs for the human contact making friends stoping to talk to some one out in the field and such talking makes things easyer as sometimes they know more than you and are willing to help you find what you are looking for but i dont want to group with most of them especially kids when you are tied to a group you always have to do what they want and you end up wasting a lot of time just goofing around trying to decide on where to go and what to do then you always have the kids wanting everything or saying all kinds of stupid things or getting you killed with stupid mistakes i dont mind grouping sometines with adults but i mostly solo its just a lot more fun for me i think that is why wow has done so well you can solo to the lvl cap i know this becouse i did it wow was so great of a game becouse of that i played that game long after capping out just setting up alts and playing them simply becouse i could solo i was also on a pve server so i didnt have to worry about being ganked or dropping armor i was really hoping vanguard was going to be like that but it seems like its not so unless things change i dont think i will play it ether i really wanted to play d&d online as well but from what i read no way i will play a group only game
developers are really missing the point when it comes to building games there are hundered of thousands of players maby even millions just like me we want to solo to the lvl cap but have the benifit of being around other players to chat ask for help when we need it we like to group some but play more than 50% of the game solo we dont like pvp so we dont want to be forced into it i think you will see the most popular games in the future will be from developers who get the point that its all about viriaty give the people what they want make games you can solo and/or group to the lvl cap have blue and pvp servers have easy and hard servers and plz stop screwing over the solo players lol we always get the short end of the deal when it comes to drops have crafting for people who want to craft just thnk about it most games have more than one server they could set up servers to cator to differant gamming types after all we are not all the same
i thnk games are replaceing content now with pvp they dont want to take the time and spend the money to add wonderful content and do reserch to make a great game any more most companys just want to make the most money with the least expence a really good game can make good with out haveing pvp i dont pvp in wow although i could i dont have to though thats my point wow cators to most of the gameing groups of people except for maby the really hard core gammers in which they are in the minority any way i have been playing for years and i still dont like a hard game i play to have fun and i play for content and graphics fun is the main thing one of the things i really didnt like about eq1 was there loot system it allowed for ninja looting very easy from what i read vanguard wont have a good looting system ether so that makes grouping even worse
bottom line is when developers finally figuer out that they should be catoring there games to all of the players insted of haveing that build it and they will come attitude they will do much much better and make so much more money sry for my spelling i have been up all night playing eq2 am really tired lol this is just my opinion but i think there are at least hundreds of thousands of players maby even millions who feel the same way as me wish they had spell check on these things lol
Anyone understand this? This guy claims to be an adult yet has the IQ of a 12 year old. Poser? I think so.
Wow, I clame to be an adult and have the iq of a 12 year old ha ha ha ha thats funny. Dude you are probuly the 12 year old and have no iq. That post just shows how stuped you are and rude to judge some one by one single post on one websight. If i am so dumb than how did I make my first million by age 35 and retire. Thats why I have so much time to play these games, I dont work. I retired so young becouse i refused to pay 50% of what i made in taxes, retirement = very low taxes. I wont explane it here becouse it has cousted me a lot of money in accounting fees and atternys fees to learn all of this. Your post is typical though to why I dont like to group much playing mmorpgs. Who needs this kind of crap. People like you makes solo so much more fun. Grow up dude get a life. case closed
Originally posted by Torchwood Raid only content makes it for powergamers. If there are that few hardcores out there, then games should drop all hardcore aspects out.
So what exactly does that mean. Are you saying that simply because a game has raid content it must be hardcore and favors only powergamers? Because if that is what you are saying then you must consider WoW to be a pretty hardcore MMO and all this time I thought it was a pretty casual friendly game in a lot of aspects.
At any rate whether or not your statement is valid is not really important. If you think the game is designed in a such a way that you play too little to accomplish anything then simply do not play. Hardcore and powergaming are two terms that are very much a matter of opinion. I'm sure to some people I would be considered a hardcore MMO player and a powergamer at times. I wouldn't consider myself either simply because there are a great many people out there who play far more frequently for longer stretches and play far more intensly than I ever do.
Even if you do believe VSoH is truly hardcore, which I don't think is going to be the case, so what? The MMO market is becomming very flooded. There are a great number of existing mainstream titles out there and far more on the way. It stands to reason that games will become more and more niche in order to survive. The MMO market is becomming far too diverse for these single all encompasing MMOs to continually come along and capture everyone's interest. You can't expect to be the next WoW. That simply is not an attainable goal for 95% of MMOs that exist or are in development. Instead you make a game that 250k-500k people will love and stick with for years instead of a game that 1 million will be moderatly pleased with and will abandon as soon as something more interesting comes along.
Comments
That's not at all what the material I've quoted says, and you haven't provided a single quote supporting your claim that raiding will only be a small part of those sources. Even other Vanguard fans here don't agree with you, we've got a guy saying that the best gear must come from raids in an MMO.
They engage in marketingspeak and careful phrasing, and sometimes change their minds later. If that's lying by your standards, then every game company's reps are lying by your standards.
I can and have. I have provided quotes backing my position, you haven't. When you're not falling over yourself to tell me how wrong I supposedly am, your own quotes even back me, like the one in the last bit of my response.
Unless they ditch their raid plans, it will not be fun for me at all. As it will not be fun for at least one person, it will not be fun for everyone.
Ahh, I see. So now if I find direct quotes supporting what I say, they're "dated and also out of context" even though you don't have anything more up-to-date to contradict me? I wasn't born yesterday.
Plus, you've just said it again - raids will drop better loot than groups, which will be better than solo, at least in the non-endgame part. Sounds like a plan for a raiding game to me, not a plan for a game which focuses on small group play or which supports all playstyles.
So what you're saying is that I'm wrong about the best engame gear coming from raids, because it will actually come from something that drops from a raid but that I'll need a crafter, maybe some farming, and a reputation level to actuatually get the item? Think about what you're writing, I don't see any real difference between "the best endgame gear comes from raiding" and "the best endgame gear comes from an item that you get from raiding, then pass through a crafter, farm some stuff for, and have a reputation level for", it's still a raid drop.
I can and have. I have provided quotes backing my position, you haven't. When you're not falling over yourself to tell me how wrong I supposedly am, your own quotes even back me, like the one in the last bit of my response.
Ahh, I see. So now if I find direct quotes supporting what I say, they're "dated and also out of context" even though you don't have anything more up-to-date to contradict me? I wasn't born yesterday.
I Know its most likely pointless responding to your posts but I will give it one more try. What I don't understand is the hatred, self righteousness and the anger behind your posts. First you attack Angerr and now me for no reason. I find your posts and the anger and hatred towards anyone who has the nerve to disagree with you quite a bit disturbing . Your posts seem to more concerned with personally attacking other posters than any actual disscusion. If you want to discuss the game in a respectful, mature and calm tone I would be happy to do so. But I have no intention of arguing with some self righteous child who is just looking to start arguments.
Its not healthy to get so angry over a message board. You might want to take some time before responding to other peoples posts until you can calm yourself enough to say what you want to say without the anger. Life cannot be easy for you if this how you approach problems in your life. I am not attempting to talk down to you but rather I am quite concerned that you have become so upset at something so trivial. It would certainly be worth considering the cause of your behavior and what you can do to live your life with less anger.
Unfortunatley, I have not seen you offer anything in your posts besides speculation, opinons and insults to anyone that has the nerve to disagree with you. Oh and yes my quotes were much more recent than what you had to say. Your quote is from last year and was taken out of context. All of my quotes are recent from February to April.. Here is what Brad has said in regards to raiding and loot distribution at max level.
Originally posted by Aradune
The majority of content, regardless of level range, is centered around the grouping experience, with the minority focused on more casual content and raid content."
Originally posted by Aradune
What's key here is that the best items should come from experiences where there was the greatest risk vs. reward and time commitment (plus, there's always luck -- being in the right place at the right time, etc.).
Some of the best items will come from conventional raiding (large groups of people participating in long contiguous adventures). Some will come from long adventures consisting of less people and more importantly, while a lot of time will have to be invested, the content will be such that all of that time doesn't have to be contiguous.
Some also will come from the other spheres, but much of the same applies: the best components harvested and then used later to craft the best items will be very rare and in very dangerous locations. Some of it may require long contiguous time commitments, while others will be obtainable by completing several shorter contiguous adventures.
So I guess I'm still not totally sure what exactly you are asking here....
Will you be able to collect ALL of the best gear in the game without going on conventional raids and/or without trading/buying gear obtained from conventional raids? No.
Will you be able to obtain some of the very best gear without particpating in conventional raids and/or buying gear obtained via conventional raiding? Absolutely.
If your desire is to be able to obtain any and all gear without ever having to raid or buy equipment obtained via raiding, then Vanguard may not be for you. But if you are content with obtaining some subset of the best gear without raiding or buying raid dropped equipment (or items created via crafting from harvested components obtained via raiding), then I think Vanguard will be fine for you.
Really, if you want the option of obtaining any item in the game period without buying/trading for it, you'll need to involve yourself in all aspects of the game, not just raiding. You'll need to level up in harvesting/crafting, level up in diplomacy, experience the higher end grouping dungeons and such, and also have the tenacity and patience to invest quite a bit of time in the game in general, as going on a high level adventure, whether group or raid oriented, doesn't guarantee that you will obtain that item you seek anyway. Someone else might get the item, or the item might not be available each and every time anyway, as perhaps the rare spawn that drops that item, or rare harvestable, just isn't around that night, or the quest that triggers a sequence of encounter segments that leads to that 'golden' boss mob might already be taken by another group, or even the mob or switch or item or whatever flags you and your group as being able to particpate on the encounter segment might not be 'up' either.
Bottom line: if you want it all, you have to be willing to particpate in all aspects of the game, especially if you are not willing to buy/trade and particpate in the player driven economy, and when I say 'all' of the game, that would include the raids as well.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39901&mode=linear&perpage=40&pagenumber=2
Originally posted by Aradune
No. Many of them will, but many will also be available to groups. Often the very best items will require a long time commitment, but these commitments shouldn't have to always be contiguous. In other words, say it requires 12 hours of adventuring to obtain a powerful item. In some extreme cases, this could require a raid, or even a group and it could take you all day to complete. In other cases, however, the 12 hours can be broken up into three 4 hour chunks, where the quest or encounter route for the item is broken up into fourths, such that after you achive 1/4 of the quest or route, you can save, re-group the next day, and then finish up another 3 hour chunk.
I've posted quite a bit on this months ago and encourage your and anyone intrerested to dig up the posts (some have been re-posted in this thread already -- thanks guys). In a nutshell, we want the best items to be available though a variety of routes: raids, long contiguous adventures, broken up adventures, trade skills, diplomacy, etc. The only potentially controversial aspect of this is that is likely that not ALL of the best items you might want will be availble through only one of these methods. If you are a person who wants ALL of the best stuff, you'll have to involve yourself in all of the above, including raiding and long contiguous adventures, even though the majority of content, including that which yeilds great rewards, will be group oriented.
Essentially, if you want it all (whether items or abilities or spells or whatever), you pretty much have to DO it all as well. I do stress, however, that to be a powerful and effective player, you don't have to do it all. What I'm talking about is the subset of players who, from a personal preference, decide they have to have all of the best gear of every type, for every situation, etc.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45124&page=2&highlight=gear
Originally posted by Aradune
No, I think my posts were consistent, although perhaps not as clear as they could have been. Some of the best items will only be obtainabile via raiding, other best items through grouping, and others through special casual areas, and others through the other spheres (harvesting/crafting and diplomacy).
Let me try to come up with a quick hypothetical example -- it's simplistic, but perhaps will make more sense:
1. The best all around helmet (say non-situational -- it has the best AC, or the best +STR attribute) for a warrior may come from a high level group zone
2. The best fire resistant vambraces may come from a raid zone
3. The best light armor boots may come from a challenging encounter that is made for casual/solo size groups (1-3).
4. The best AC armor (call it the Red Dragonscale Breastplate) may come from dragon scales collected in a difficult group dungeon, but then also require a high level harvester to actually collect the the scales in the depths of a the dragon's lair, and then a high level crafter to be able to use it and other components to actually create the Red Dragonscale Breastplate
5. The best +Charisma Cloak (call it the Royal Red Sparrow Robe) that enables you access to the throne room in New Targonar may come from a series of challenging diplomatic quests requiring high skills, items, and strategy used by one or more players playing in the Diplomacy sphere.
Were a person to absolutely insist on obtaining all 5 of these hypothetical items above, he would have to either a. engage in all 5 activities to some significant extent, as well as work with others in most of the examples or b. buy/trade for them, assuming they are items that are tradable.
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=927504#post927504
i welcome a debate, i can take whatever argument you throw at me, i have no problem at all adminting when i am wrong witch i was. in the faq (witch i read some time ago) said that there will not be any no drop/soulbound items.
but see even though i am a fanboy i dont read every single post from the Dev's.....yes i missed one post where the Dev said they changed an aspect of the game that i already read about...witch btw you did not point out zippy did, so how does that make you any more informed than me?
you want quotes?? *sigh* alright then....
you believe in your mind that this is what vanguard endgame will be...and this is what brad actually said it will be..
and since you have so much knowlage about vanguard then you most certainly already read this quote, witch has been my argument all along.......call it what you want missleading/lying...w/e this is pretty much spelling it out exactly for you and if you still think the only way to get all the best items is by raiding (therefor making it a raidfest at endgame) indeed you are "calling him a liar" so to speak.
BTW i totally understand if you dont like to raid, but i respectfully and strongly disagree (going on what i have read) that vanguard will be " just another game of raiding endlessly".
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Time of zippy's post: 4:15. Time of your post pointing out that I haven't responded: 6:12. Do you really think that someome not responding to a post on a message board for all of 2 hours has some deep signficance? Good lord man, he spend more than twice that time before responding to my post this morning, so whatever my 'less than 2 hours nonresponse' means to you, it applies twice as much to Zippy.
Please accept my sincere and abject apologies for not spending every waking moment of the day watching this thread on this message board for responses, it clearly should be a higher priority for me than games, work, housekeeping, and other activities I've engaged in.
sorry zippy i didn't read your post until after i made my last one and noticed you put same quote as i did, thanks for stealing my thunder lol j/k
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Did you actually read what Angerr wrote to me? He said that I was lazy and that I was basing my opinion on who is making the game, not on reading anything. If someome wants to call me 'lazy' and accuse me of making stuff up, I'm not going to give them a hug when I demonstrate how they're completely wrong.
I'm not even sure what's supposed to be the 'attack' on you, is it just that anyone disagreeing with you and pointing out how your own words support my position qualifies as an attack to you?
The pals who you're acting all affronted on behalf of might want to take some time to calm themselves first; I've only responded in kind to people.
Yes, my life is so terribly difficult because I responded to a guy on a messageboard who called me lazy and accused me of not reading information about the game in the some tone that he spoke to me in, I don't know how I could possibly make it through the day. Are you even more concerned about Angerr? Because he seems to actually be upset at me responding to his accusations of laziness and not reading about the game by turning them back on him.
This conversation is quite amusing; someome insults me, I turn it back on them, and somehow that means that all of my arguments and direct quotes disappeared, at least until you want to comment on my direct quotes of what the developers said, then my posts are more than speculation, opinions, and insults.
Note in your own quoted material: "If your desire is to be able to obtain any and all gear without ever having to raid or buy equipment obtained via raiding, then Vanguard may not be for you." That sums up my position; I do not have any desire whatsoever to set foot in a raid, and I have no idea to be a farmbot for some raid guild in order to gear up, if they'll even give up raid gear for anything but DKP. The dev's own words say that the game is not for me, and that you will need to raid or become a farmbot for raid guilds in order to gear up.
See, the thing is that quotes like "The majority of content, regardless of level range, is centered around the grouping experience, with the minority focused on more casual content and raid content," led me to believe that there would be some solo/tiny group content, but mostly group (like 4-10 people) content, and that the 'minority content' would not be something that you have to do, that you wouldn't have any need to raid or solo. But that's clearly not the case; you will need to raid or somehow convince a raid guild to hand over raid drops to someome with 0 DKP in order to gear up.
That pretty much sums up my response to the whole wall of text; his claim that the game won't literally require you to raid is true. But raiding is not really optional, as you'll need gear obtainable only in raids to get properly outfitted. So you'll either have to raid yourself or do some really huge amounts of farming to have enough money to convince loot-whores to take an item out of their DKP system, neither of which appeals to me. I suppose my statement is technically unture, so I'll amend it to "Vanguard is just another game where the endgame is about either raiding or about farming really huge amounts of materials and/or kissing the butts of raid guilds to gear up". Still not in the least appealing.
pantastic look, i appoligize...i didn't mean to insult you.....i was trying to talk in general when i said those things, i get tired of repeating myself over and over to people like you that think vanguard will be a huge raid fest.
i have already gave my reasons for disagreeing with you on this topic, and IMO very valid ones......i wasn't trying to insult you i shouldn't have been so harsh....but again my opinion and argument still stands.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
The fact is, I personally, missed your point, and I am sorry if you feel attacked for no reason.
So here is your chance to explain your thoughts if you care, and we will start from here.
ste . . .
are you in the beta ?
I do respect the NDA of the games I test.
I have played eq1, eq2, lineage 2, gw, wow, and rf online i was really hoping to play vanguard but i to am a solo player i like playing mmorpgs for the human contact making friends stoping to talk to some one out in the field and such talking makes things easyer as sometimes they know more than you and are willing to help you find what you are looking for but i dont want to group with most of them especially kids when you are tied to a group you always have to do what they want and you end up wasting a lot of time just goofing around trying to decide on where to go and what to do then you always have the kids wanting everything or saying all kinds of stupid things or getting you killed with stupid mistakes i dont mind grouping sometines with adults but i mostly solo its just a lot more fun for me i think that is why wow has done so well you can solo to the lvl cap i know this becouse i did it wow was so great of a game becouse of that i played that game long after capping out just setting up alts and playing them simply becouse i could solo i was also on a pve server so i didnt have to worry about being ganked or dropping armor i was really hoping vanguard was going to be like that but it seems like its not so unless things change i dont think i will play it ether i really wanted to play d&d online as well but from what i read no way i will play a group only game
developers are really missing the point when it comes to building games there are hundered of thousands of players maby even millions just like me we want to solo to the lvl cap but have the benifit of being around other players to chat ask for help when we need it we like to group some but play more than 50% of the game solo we dont like pvp so we dont want to be forced into it i think you will see the most popular games in the future will be from developers who get the point that its all about viriaty give the people what they want make games you can solo and/or group to the lvl cap have blue and pvp servers have easy and hard servers and plz stop screwing over the solo players lol we always get the short end of the deal when it comes to drops have crafting for people who want to craft just thnk about it most games have more than one server they could set up servers to cator to differant gamming types after all we are not all the same
i thnk games are replaceing content now with pvp they dont want to take the time and spend the money to add wonderful content and do reserch to make a great game any more most companys just want to make the most money with the least expence a really good game can make good with out haveing pvp i dont pvp in wow although i could i dont have to though thats my point wow cators to most of the gameing groups of people except for maby the really hard core gammers in which they are in the minority any way i have been playing for years and i still dont like a hard game i play to have fun and i play for content and graphics fun is the main thing one of the things i really didnt like about eq1 was there loot system it allowed for ninja looting very easy from what i read vanguard wont have a good looting system ether so that makes grouping even worse
bottom line is when developers finally figuer out that they should be catoring there games to all of the players insted of haveing that build it and they will come attitude they will do much much better and make so much more money sry for my spelling i have been up all night playing eq2 am really tired lol this is just my opinion but i think there are at least hundreds of thousands of players maby even millions who feel the same way as me wish they had spell check on these things lol
Loopywizard, your spelling is not a problem, but maybe the use of punctuation would help, it was really difficult to go through your post.
Anyway if I understood exactly, you want a solo game which give you the chance to interact with people and do stuff with them, you like the social part of the MMORPG, but you don't like to be forced to group or raid.
OK, Vanguard is not gonna cater for pure soloers, but it would be probably the most social game you could come across.
In Vanguard there is no way you can progress if you are not good in socialising with people.
Whatever sector of the game you are focusing in ( adventuring, crafting, trading), you will need to actively interact with other people in order to succed in anything.
Now if you are more of a soloer than a social person, Vanguard is not for you.
But if you give priority to socialising and interacting with people over the soloing, then you should give Vanguard a shot.
Powergamering wouldn't be the main attraction for me actually.
I like the large seamless world for the sense of exploration and adventure.
Probably it will be nice to the have option to do casual (solo), small group and large raid content, along with crafting and diplomacy as well. Might be the sort of game you find yourself doing lots of things.
~ Ancient Membership ~
I do not mind people telling us it is this or that, but only after they have played it.
Basing it only on just scouting info is really silly, as you will not know what sort of game it is, untill you have at least tried it.
So try it, and then come back and tell us what you think, based on actual knowledge you got your self playing it.
Danelle
Wow, I clame to be an adult and have the iq of a 12 year old ha ha ha ha thats funny. Dude you are probuly the 12 year old and have no iq. That post just shows how stuped you are and rude to judge some one by one single post on one websight. If i am so dumb than how did I make my first million by age 35 and retire. Thats why I have so much time to play these games, I dont work. I retired so young becouse i refused to pay 50% of what i made in taxes, retirement = very low taxes. I wont explane it here becouse it has cousted me a lot of money in accounting fees and atternys fees to learn all of this. Your post is typical though to why I dont like to group much playing mmorpgs. Who needs this kind of crap. People like you makes solo so much more fun. Grow up dude get a life. case closed
So what exactly does that mean. Are you saying that simply because a game has raid content it must be hardcore and favors only powergamers? Because if that is what you are saying then you must consider WoW to be a pretty hardcore MMO and all this time I thought it was a pretty casual friendly game in a lot of aspects.
At any rate whether or not your statement is valid is not really important. If you think the game is designed in a such a way that you play too little to accomplish anything then simply do not play. Hardcore and powergaming are two terms that are very much a matter of opinion. I'm sure to some people I would be considered a hardcore MMO player and a powergamer at times. I wouldn't consider myself either simply because there are a great many people out there who play far more frequently for longer stretches and play far more intensly than I ever do.
Even if you do believe VSoH is truly hardcore, which I don't think is going to be the case, so what? The MMO market is becomming very flooded. There are a great number of existing mainstream titles out there and far more on the way. It stands to reason that games will become more and more niche in order to survive. The MMO market is becomming far too diverse for these single all encompasing MMOs to continually come along and capture everyone's interest. You can't expect to be the next WoW. That simply is not an attainable goal for 95% of MMOs that exist or are in development. Instead you make a game that 250k-500k people will love and stick with for years instead of a game that 1 million will be moderatly pleased with and will abandon as soon as something more interesting comes along.