Of course I never want to be killed by another player. I want to be the player that is killing other players.
Sometimes getting killed by another player can be important and meaningful though. Assassinating people from an opposing nation or faction has been known to start wars now and again.
In a permadeath game, certainly death is meaningful. You lose everything you've gained. Which is why I would rather be the one killing other players and not being the one killed. I have no idea what real life assassinations have to do with anything.
I think what is pretty poor about your proposed design (as far as you have let people know) is that you propose no progression. On the one hand you say death is meaningful, on the other, by removing progression, you actually remove the part that gives meaning.
You might as well play For Honor or Playerunknown's Battlegrounds at that point. The only difference you offer is a persistent open world? If there is no progression, then death is trivial.
No, it's just aggravating. Why would you want to constantly restart the game? What point is it to restart every five minutes? Not only is it boring, it's incredibly aggravating. The games that have received best game for the last ten years are almost all games like The Witcher, Skyrim, etc. And if you couldn't get past level one because you were constantly being killed, then why would you play them? It's not fun, it's incredibly aggravating. PvP games DON'T win best game. Not for anything. And there's a reason for that. Because most people don't like them. And spending 45 minutes creating in your mind the perfect character with possibilities, and then being killed in five minutes by someone 60 levels above you who thinks it's funny just to kill you and take your stuff is NOT fun.
If that's the reason you are playing MMO's, then maybe you need a different hobby. And some time with a psychiatrist to decipher and treat the reason why you are so malicious.
It's fine to like pvp, but to like it just because you can beat people up... there's something seriously mentally wrong with that don't you think? And no, I don't say that about PvE because in PvE, the people you are killing aren't real. When we were children, we played "pretend" and weren't really hurting anyone. In PvP, the whole point is to hurt other real life people by making them feel miserable.
I think the behavior is childish, and promotes the worst in humanity. Therefore I don't play games where that's possible.
I find most themeparks to be just as childish and rude. You get people who watch you fight through like 5 mobs then run up and ninja the quest objective from you. People who ragequit arena matches the second you are behind a point and let some random get thrust into their spot or just leave the team down a man. And of course there are always trolls in chat.
In PvP-MMOs you can at least fight back against people like that.
No, it's just aggravating. Why would you want to constantly restart the game? What point is it to restart every five minutes? Not only is it boring, it's incredibly aggravating. The games that have received best game for the last ten years are almost all games like The Witcher, Skyrim, etc. And if you couldn't get past level one because you were constantly being killed, then why would you play them? It's not fun, it's incredibly aggravating. PvP games DON'T win best game. Not for anything. And there's a reason for that. Because most people don't like them. And spending 45 minutes creating in your mind the perfect character with possibilities, and then being killed in five minutes by someone 60 levels above you who thinks it's funny just to kill you and take your stuff is NOT fun.
If that's the reason you are playing MMO's, then maybe you need a different hobby. And some time with a psychiatrist to decipher and treat the reason why you are so malicious.
It's fine to like pvp, but to like it just because you can beat people up... there's something seriously mentally wrong with that don't you think?
So, you bring up a lot of different points here, so let me try and address them.
"Why would you want to constantly restart the game? What point is it to restart every five minutes?"
Well, I wouldn't want to constantly restart the game. My goal would to be to survive as long as possible. For me personally, I've always found playing hardcore modes in ARPGs, roguelikes and other genres really entertaining. I also come from a time when a lot of games (single player) were essentially permadeath games.
However, in a PvP MMORPG, I think that it's a lot more challenging to make "fun," like you say. Players are nasty little creatures sometimes. There used to be a theory floated around that once a game with real consequences gets settled in, that people would begin to police themselves like they do in real life societies - that because the consequences were so high, people might create their own sort of police force to help keep the peace.
The best example that I know of was Ultima Online. In UO, there was full-loot OW PvP with safe zones. And for a while it did seem like maybe people would figure out, on their own, how to police themselves. The problem with this theory, at least in my opinion, is that it did not take into account anonymity and consequences. In real life, you might suffer serious injury or worse for attacking someone. In real life, people see you and know you. Games eliminate these two things and so people go much further. After all, it's just a stupid game.
PvP games DON'T win best game. Not for anything. And there's a reason for that. Because most people don't like them.
PvP games are incredibly popular. MOBAs, FPSs, CCGs... I mean, PvP is just an incredibly popular component to gaming in general. Million dollar prizes are awarded. There was even a short stint where WoW was awarding fairly large amounts of money for arena play.
But I will agree that in MMORPGs in general, the PvP population seems to be much lower than the PvE population. There are probably a lot of factors baked into this: RNG, incredibly difficult to balance, failure is more common, gear differences, etc. But there is still a sizable chunk of people that like PvP in MMORPGs and there are also a lot of PvE players that like to dabble in it.
I remember discussing this with one of my friends. So, we also play other games like FPSs and stuff together. We were asking the question, why do we like MMORPG PvP so much? Eventually we came down to the conclusion that it was the variety in the combat. We preferred, more than other people, to have these battles that required a lot of knowledge about what you're facing and how to overcome it. If everyone has, say, 20 or 30 skills and there are 10 classes, that offers a different sort of challenge than being quick, accurate and tactical in an FPS. I think there is a place for MMORPGs and PvP especially BECAUSE of those reasons that they aren't popular (RNG, incredibly difficult to balance, failure is more common, gear differences, etc.).
Why would I want to beat people up?
So that I am not the one being beat up. I learned this mostly from EVE. Take every advantage over everyone. Never enter a fair fight. Overwhelming odds is key to success.
It's not that I like to hurt their egos or something (although mine has been hurt plenty of times), it's that if we all agree to the same ruleset, anything within that ruleset should go. It is a brutal sort of reality within a game when you can do a lot of damage to someone's progress, but those are the rules everyone agrees to in those games. And you are usually doing it for some kind of personal gain within the game (like taking their stuff or ensuring your safety from future encroachment).
And I certainly agree with you that if I couldn't get past level 1 because I was constantly being killed that I would not like that game.
Of course I never want to be killed by another player. I want to be the player that is killing other players.
Sometimes getting killed by another player can be important and meaningful though. Assassinating people from an opposing nation or faction has been known to start wars now and again.
In a permadeath game, certainly death is meaningful. You lose everything you've gained. Which is why I would rather be the one killing other players and not being the one killed. I have no idea what real life assassinations have to do with anything.
I think what is pretty poor about your proposed design (as far as you have let people know) is that you propose no progression. On the one hand you say death is meaningful, on the other, by removing progression, you actually remove the part that gives meaning.
You might as well play For Honor or Playerunknown's Battlegrounds at that point. The only difference you offer is a persistent open world? If there is no progression, then death is trivial.
No, it's just aggravating. Why would you want to constantly restart the game? What point is it to restart every five minutes? Not only is it boring, it's incredibly aggravating. The games that have received best game for the last ten years are almost all games like The Witcher, Skyrim, etc. And if you couldn't get past level one because you were constantly being killed, then why would you play them? It's not fun, it's incredibly aggravating. PvP games DON'T win best game. Not for anything. And there's a reason for that. Because most people don't like them. And spending 45 minutes creating in your mind the perfect character with possibilities, and then being killed in five minutes by someone 60 levels above you who thinks it's funny just to kill you and take your stuff is NOT fun.
If that's the reason you are playing MMO's, then maybe you need a different hobby. And some time with a psychiatrist to decipher and treat the reason why you are so malicious.
It's fine to like pvp, but to like it just because you can beat people up... there's something seriously mentally wrong with that don't you think? And no, I don't say that about PvE because in PvE, the people you are killing aren't real. When we were children, we played "pretend" and weren't really hurting anyone. In PvP, the whole point is to hurt other real life people by making them feel miserable.
No, because I would never play an open world PVP/PVE MMORPG with vertical level progression or vertical (basically unlimited, infinite) gear progression at all. Nor would I ever use that progression system in a pvp mmorpg. Not even on a single mmorpg pvp server. There is a different type of progression I would use. I would not use a system in a pvp game that allowed some players to be able to overpower other players simply because they played longer, played more hours, or paid more money. That's completely ridiculous in any pvp game that was, is, or will ever be made.
I like pvp because it is challenging. To me, more challenge means more fun. I'm not overly competitive, but sometimes competition can mean more challenge which = more fun for me.
I also believe that an open world pvp/pve realm vs realm sandbox mmorpg is the only way to attempt to create a realistic, dynamic, true role-playing game online without the need for incredibly advanced AI and/or VR.
You really shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know. It's not wise. I have barely played PvP in mmorpgs. Only sampled it in 2 or 3 really. I don't play PvP in mmorpgs because I know it is almost always unbalanced, unfair, and non-competitive. I would like to change that. You can't use systems based on D&D or other P&P rpgs (which are soley designed for PVE), and make a good PVP game. It's impossible. It will never happen. Unless you have gear score/item level like Neverwinter does, and you only allow people to queue in their accurate approximate item level for instanced pvp only (which Neverwinter does not do).
They are not cowardly, smart yes, cowardly no. You want investors to invest in a niche game? That is an arrogant attitude. So far, nothing from kickstarter, game wise, has really made traction. It is because, like most startups, they have a hard time transitioning from the initial phase to the next phase. That does involve raising more money but kickstarter cannot do it this time. So they have to go to the more traitional markets which look at ROI.
The problem with sandbox games is they need an inordinant amount of playing time to learn and do things only to be killed and all your items taken by some asshat? Sorry no. I don't have the time to sink into a game like that nor do I want to. This is why these type of games will always be fringe games, not mainstream.
People want to go in have fun for a short time and move on. Gaming is not a job. It should be fun, an escape really.
"Smart" people don't see their two hundred million dollar game set in the Star Wars universe flop. Smart people realize that unless your product delivers something that there is a market demand for, your product is going to flop. Cowardly people invest in the same old game model over and over because "it works" even though the only people it has worked for is Blizzard.
The majority of kickstarter games have yet to release. Those who have are mainly the ones that failed to raise much during their kickstarter and then rushed out a product as fast as possible hoping to make enough money to complete their game. It's not surprising games like that failed on their million dollar budget.
The most promising games in the kickstarter wave appear to be Star Citizen (148 million and counting) and Crowfall (12 million and counting). While these games almost certainly will not live up to the expectations of many of their fans (Too many of them want a game resembling something they would design themselves the day before yesterday) it will be shocking to see them not release, and not make serious waves in the MMO community when they do.
As to the learning curve. Yeah there is a lot of people who would rather have their character built for them and spend thousands of hours on boring, repetitive, linear gameplay. A lot of us really enjoy the learning curve though and are much more willing to spend some time getting the hang of a game with freedom, varied gameplay, and that actually challenges our intellect then playing a game so simple literally anyone can do it.
The thing is, that particular demographic that is unwilling to devote any brain power into a past time they spend hundreds or thousands of hours on, are already very well catered to by WoW and it's clones.
No stupid people put money into a model that only caters to a certain type of person, not all. SWTOR ran into the same roadblocks that all games do, reality vs what is promised for a game. A.Net did the same thing with GW2. Now we have SC, the boondoggles to end all boondoggles. I do not expect ANYTHING to come out of SC because they keep stretching goals while never really finishing anything. That is poor management and that is the key. For SWTOR, blame the developing company not the people who invested in the game. And if SWTOR did not do well, why would you think they would put money into something that has a niche market and has never done well.
Keep belittling people w/o giving constructive ideas is another reason why money people are staying away. They can make more money off of iPad Android games than a PvP centric game which caters to infantile people (there I said it). I HATE DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN A GAME. BORING REPETITIVE STUFF IS NOT FUN AND I PLAY GAMES FOR FUN. Right - freedom, after HOW many hours? 100 -200 hrs? When many people spend 3-4 hrs a week in a game that is a ridiculous amount of time to get any fun. Hell, they can go to work then, at least they get paid for that.
As far as your last sentence, the shoe can be placed on the other foot as well. It is the PvP'ers that do not understand that others don't care to play a game where you have to sit brainlessly grinding to get stuff only for asshats, coming around killing people because they are max level (ant that is all they do is grind and go to max level). Even when there are consequences these asshats don't care and that is the real sad part.
Maybe you can finance the game and show everyone how it is done.
I think the behavior is childish, and promotes the worst in humanity. Therefore I don't play games where that's possible.
I find most themeparks to be just as childish and rude. You get people who watch you fight through like 5 mobs then run up and ninja the quest objective from you. People who ragequit arena matches the second you are behind a point and let some random get thrust into their spot or just leave the team down a man. And of course there are always trolls in chat.
In PvP-MMOs you can at least fight back against people like that.
Wow that has to be some crappy MMO you are playing. Not to be rude, but MMO's have moved away from allowing players to kill steal or Ninja loot, for the last decade, unless it's like WoW that has a cult following and can do whatever they like and millions of people will still love them, AAA title MMO's, like GW2, all have shared loot, and team victory.
also.. yah.. PvP players in MMO's, I agree with you 100%, those trolls are legendary... and yet you want to give them the ability to kill you at any time, any place... and you don't see the intrinsic problem with that?
No stupid people put money into a model that only caters to a certain type of person, not all. SWTOR ran into the same roadblocks that all games do, reality vs what is promised for a game. A.Net did the same thing with GW2. Now we have SC, the boondoggles to end all boondoggles. I do not expect ANYTHING to come out of SC because they keep stretching goals while never really finishing anything. That is poor management and that is the key. For SWTOR, blame the developing company not the people who invested in the game. And if SWTOR did not do well, why would you think they would put money into something that has a niche market and has never done well.
Keep belittling people w/o giving constructive ideas is another reason why money people are staying away. They can make more money off of iPad Android games than a PvP centric game which caters to infantile people (there I said it). I HATE DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN A GAME. BORING REPETITIVE STUFF IS NOT FUN AND I PLAY GAMES FOR FUN. Right - freedom, after HOW many hours? 100 -200 hrs? When many people spend 3-4 hrs a week in a game that is a ridiculous amount of time to get any fun. Hell, they can go to work then, at least they get paid for that.
As far as your last sentence, the shoe can be placed on the other foot as well. It is the PvP'ers that do not understand that others don't care to play a game where you have to sit brainlessly grinding to get stuff only for asshats, coming around killing people because they are max level (ant that is all they do is grind and go to max level). Even when there are consequences these asshats don't care and that is the real sad part.
Maybe you can finance the game and show everyone how it is done.
Obviously you've never taken a business or marketing class. I have. Almost half of my degree is business based. This is a concept you need to familiarize yourself with. You cannot create a successful product in an established market unless it is new and remarkable. No rehashing of WoW will ever be new or remarkable again. You will NEVER see another WoW clone succeed unless Blizzard makes a WoW2 and shuts WoW down to make market space for it. A game catered to a niche can at least succeed within it's niche because it's niche will care.
"As far as your last sentence, the shoe can be placed on the other foot as well. It is the PvP'ers that do not understand that others don't care to play a game where you have to sit brainlessly grinding to get stuff only for asshats, coming around killing people because they are max level (ant that is all they do is grind and go to max level). Even when there are consequences these asshats don't care and that is the real sad part."
If developers want to get rich making an MMORPG, let me explain how. Try doing something that's never been done before. Offer something new. Great inventors and innovators don't simply recycle old ideas and place a few new bells and whistles on them. What they do is offer something the rejects that status quo. Offer something that people may not know they want, think they want, or believe they want (maybe they never even thought was possible). People may even be repulsed by the idea at first. However, often, when they have the chance to sample this new, innovative invention or design, they immediately recognize that is superior to what they have come to previously enjoy, tolerate, or even just settle for.
No stupid people put money into a model that only caters to a certain type of person, not all. SWTOR ran into the same roadblocks that all games do, reality vs what is promised for a game. A.Net did the same thing with GW2. Now we have SC, the boondoggles to end all boondoggles. I do not expect ANYTHING to come out of SC because they keep stretching goals while never really finishing anything. That is poor management and that is the key. For SWTOR, blame the developing company not the people who invested in the game. And if SWTOR did not do well, why would you think they would put money into something that has a niche market and has never done well.
Keep belittling people w/o giving constructive ideas is another reason why money people are staying away. They can make more money off of iPad Android games than a PvP centric game which caters to infantile people (there I said it). I HATE DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN A GAME. BORING REPETITIVE STUFF IS NOT FUN AND I PLAY GAMES FOR FUN. Right - freedom, after HOW many hours? 100 -200 hrs? When many people spend 3-4 hrs a week in a game that is a ridiculous amount of time to get any fun. Hell, they can go to work then, at least they get paid for that.
As far as your last sentence, the shoe can be placed on the other foot as well. It is the PvP'ers that do not understand that others don't care to play a game where you have to sit brainlessly grinding to get stuff only for asshats, coming around killing people because they are max level (ant that is all they do is grind and go to max level). Even when there are consequences these asshats don't care and that is the real sad part.
Maybe you can finance the game and show everyone how it is done.
Obviously you've never taken a business or marketing class. I have. Almost half of my degree is business based. This is a concept you need to familiarize yourself with. You cannot create a successful product in an established market unless it is new and remarkable. No rehashing of WoW will ever be new or remarkable again. You will NEVER see another WoW clone succeed unless Blizzard makes a WoW2 and shuts WoW down to make market space for it. A game catered to a niche can at least succeed within it's niche because it's niche will care.
Gonna have to disagree with you there, you can very much become successful in an established market, simply by offering a better quality product or offering the same product at a cheaper price.
Case in point, Wal*Mart, didn't do anything new, Sears, Macy's, and a slew of other brands already had the super-center/Department Store idea down, where Wal*Mart simply offered the same things at a much cheaper price, in fact they were in direct competition with K-Mart, simply by taking what K-mart did, and focusing on doing that better, they overtook the market.
Same thing happened with HomeDepot, crushing out many other "Department Hardware Stores"
You so too can enter a market, and become vastly successful, without doing anything new, as long as what you do, you better then your competitors.
@black777 - I changed my OP in this thread a few times. I finally just got tired of people who respond to it without reading anything else in the thread, where their questions, concerns, complaints, views, beliefs, thoughts, ideas, answers or whatever else they can move their fingers to type had already been addressed.
No stupid people put money into a model that only caters to a certain type of person, not all. SWTOR ran into the same roadblocks that all games do, reality vs what is promised for a game. A.Net did the same thing with GW2. Now we have SC, the boondoggles to end all boondoggles. I do not expect ANYTHING to come out of SC because they keep stretching goals while never really finishing anything. That is poor management and that is the key. For SWTOR, blame the developing company not the people who invested in the game. And if SWTOR did not do well, why would you think they would put money into something that has a niche market and has never done well.
Keep belittling people w/o giving constructive ideas is another reason why money people are staying away. They can make more money off of iPad Android games than a PvP centric game which caters to infantile people (there I said it). I HATE DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN A GAME. BORING REPETITIVE STUFF IS NOT FUN AND I PLAY GAMES FOR FUN. Right - freedom, after HOW many hours? 100 -200 hrs? When many people spend 3-4 hrs a week in a game that is a ridiculous amount of time to get any fun. Hell, they can go to work then, at least they get paid for that.
As far as your last sentence, the shoe can be placed on the other foot as well. It is the PvP'ers that do not understand that others don't care to play a game where you have to sit brainlessly grinding to get stuff only for asshats, coming around killing people because they are max level (ant that is all they do is grind and go to max level). Even when there are consequences these asshats don't care and that is the real sad part.
Maybe you can finance the game and show everyone how it is done.
Obviously you've never taken a business or marketing class. I have. Almost half of my degree is business based. This is a concept you need to familiarize yourself with. You cannot create a successful product in an established market unless it is new and remarkable. No rehashing of WoW will ever be new or remarkable again. You will NEVER see another WoW clone succeed unless Blizzard makes a WoW2 and shuts WoW down to make market space for it. A game catered to a niche can at least succeed within it's niche because it's niche will care.
Gonna have to disagree with you there, you can very much become successful in an established market, simply by offering a better quality product or offering the same product at a cheaper price.
Case in point, Wal*Mart, didn't do anything new, Sears, Macy's, and a slew of other brands already had the super-center/Department Store idea down, where Wal*Mart simply offered the same things at a much cheaper price, in fact they were in direct competition with K-Mart, simply by taking what K-mart did, and focusing on doing that better, they overtook the market.
Same thing happened with HomeDepot, crushing out many other "Department Hardware Stores"
You so too can enter a market, and become vastly successful, without doing anything new, as long as what you do, you better then your competitors.
SWTOR was better than WoW in nearly every regard. Companions made it easier to level support characters. Flashpoints allowed you to replay lower level content at higher levels and get worthwhile rewards for it. PvP arenas were playable and fun at every level and twinks didn't exist. (Until max level at least. Max level areas are where the PvP gear really started to kick in and you were just fodder for the people who had it until you acquired it as well.) Graphics were better. Storylines were cool. Some really super awesome mini-games like the space combat. Just all around a better game by most criteria.
Except WoW had an established playerbase and more content.
There will never be a WoW killer until WoW kills itself through it's own slow decline, and if there is, it will be nothing like WoW.
No stupid people put money into a model that only caters to a certain type of person, not all. SWTOR ran into the same roadblocks that all games do, reality vs what is promised for a game. A.Net did the same thing with GW2. Now we have SC, the boondoggles to end all boondoggles. I do not expect ANYTHING to come out of SC because they keep stretching goals while never really finishing anything. That is poor management and that is the key. For SWTOR, blame the developing company not the people who invested in the game. And if SWTOR did not do well, why would you think they would put money into something that has a niche market and has never done well.
Keep belittling people w/o giving constructive ideas is another reason why money people are staying away. They can make more money off of iPad Android games than a PvP centric game which caters to infantile people (there I said it). I HATE DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN A GAME. BORING REPETITIVE STUFF IS NOT FUN AND I PLAY GAMES FOR FUN. Right - freedom, after HOW many hours? 100 -200 hrs? When many people spend 3-4 hrs a week in a game that is a ridiculous amount of time to get any fun. Hell, they can go to work then, at least they get paid for that.
As far as your last sentence, the shoe can be placed on the other foot as well. It is the PvP'ers that do not understand that others don't care to play a game where you have to sit brainlessly grinding to get stuff only for asshats, coming around killing people because they are max level (ant that is all they do is grind and go to max level). Even when there are consequences these asshats don't care and that is the real sad part.
Maybe you can finance the game and show everyone how it is done.
Obviously you've never taken a business or marketing class. I have. Almost half of my degree is business based. This is a concept you need to familiarize yourself with. You cannot create a successful product in an established market unless it is new and remarkable. No rehashing of WoW will ever be new or remarkable again. You will NEVER see another WoW clone succeed unless Blizzard makes a WoW2 and shuts WoW down to make market space for it. A game catered to a niche can at least succeed within it's niche because it's niche will care.
Gonna have to disagree with you there, you can very much become successful in an established market, simply by offering a better quality product or offering the same product at a cheaper price.
Case in point, Wal*Mart, didn't do anything new, Sears, Macy's, and a slew of other brands already had the super-center/Department Store idea down, where Wal*Mart simply offered the same things at a much cheaper price, in fact they were in direct competition with K-Mart, simply by taking what K-mart did, and focusing on doing that better, they overtook the market.
Same thing happened with HomeDepot, crushing out many other "Department Hardware Stores"
You so too can enter a market, and become vastly successful, without doing anything new, as long as what you do, you better then your competitors.
Walmart crushed its competitors because most everything they sell is made in China at American and International Slave Factories. Where people often work eighteen hours a day, seven days a week. But there are so many people in China that people will put up with such abuse because they can't find a way to survive any other way. Also, Walmart has/had very wealthy and powerful investors. Some of those investors or backers or supporters represent banks and firms and interests controlled by certain individuals of whom most people have probably never heard.
Home Depot and other nation-wide corporations more often than not have similar operational methods and connections.
We can thank these sorts of corporations for largely destroying the ability of small businesses and ventures (such as mom and pop stores) to compete in the open market in the United States of America. That is why so many people cannot find a job these days. Not to mention that so many factories have been moved overseas. This is called Globalism, and it is destroying the world, one nation at a time.
Can't make WoW clones/imitators with different bells and whistles, gadgets and gizmos and hope to fell the giant. No, it won't happen. Like trying to market a different brand of soda and unseat Coca-Cola or Pepsi. Most likely, ninety-nine percent or more sure, that it's not going to happen.
When Walmart first started, there weren't so many businesses selling stuff made in China or outside of the US as they are now. Yes, better logistics most likely played a part. But they were able to spend more on logistics because they spent less on buying their merchandise from China.
When Walmart first started, there weren't so many businesses selling stuff made in China or outside of the US as they are now. Yes, better logistics most likely played a part. But they were able to spend more on logistics because they spent less on buying their merchandise from China.
Well since WalMart first opened in 1950 and really didn't start buying from China until the late 1980's (maybe later) you are, as usual speaking from ignorance. The better logistics and policy of selling at lower margins were established much earlier in the company's history.
Well, you can't charge more than Blizzard if you're trying to market basically the same game. It's like trying to market a new brand of soda and trying to unseat Coca-Cola or Pepsi. Most likely, ninety-percent or more sure, that's it not going to happen.
The Wal Mart discussion is a bit of a sidetrack. I'm sure Wal Mart did some important things very different from their competitors to get where they are today but we're talking about MMOs here and not not retail outlets.
One store offers the same soda you buy at another store for 10 cents less per can or a similar soda you like slightly better for the same price. What do lose by switching stores? Nothing.
One MMO offers the same general game experience as another MMO for slightly less or a slightly better experience for the same cost. You are currently playing the MMO who's market share they are trying to steal. You actually enjoy that MMO so you've invested hundreds or thousands of hours into your characters there and built a solid network of contacts and friends. What do you stand to lose by switching MMOs? Everything.
Who is actually interested in your new MMO? People unsatisfied by their current MMOs. What do those people want? Something the MMOs currently on the market aren't able to give them.
Comments
No, it's just aggravating. Why would you want to constantly restart the game? What point is it to restart every five minutes? Not only is it boring, it's incredibly aggravating. The games that have received best game for the last ten years are almost all games like The Witcher, Skyrim, etc. And if you couldn't get past level one because you were constantly being killed, then why would you play them? It's not fun, it's incredibly aggravating. PvP games DON'T win best game. Not for anything. And there's a reason for that. Because most people don't like them. And spending 45 minutes creating in your mind the perfect character with possibilities, and then being killed in five minutes by someone 60 levels above you who thinks it's funny just to kill you and take your stuff is NOT fun.
If that's the reason you are playing MMO's, then maybe you need a different hobby. And some time with a psychiatrist to decipher and treat the reason why you are so malicious.
It's fine to like pvp, but to like it just because you can beat people up... there's something seriously mentally wrong with that don't you think? And no, I don't say that about PvE because in PvE, the people you are killing aren't real. When we were children, we played "pretend" and weren't really hurting anyone. In PvP, the whole point is to hurt other real life people by making them feel miserable.
In PvP-MMOs you can at least fight back against people like that.
So, you bring up a lot of different points here, so let me try and address them.
"Why would you want to constantly restart the game? What point is it to restart every five minutes?"
Well, I wouldn't want to constantly restart the game. My goal would to be to survive as long as possible. For me personally, I've always found playing hardcore modes in ARPGs, roguelikes and other genres really entertaining. I also come from a time when a lot of games (single player) were essentially permadeath games.
However, in a PvP MMORPG, I think that it's a lot more challenging to make "fun," like you say. Players are nasty little creatures sometimes. There used to be a theory floated around that once a game with real consequences gets settled in, that people would begin to police themselves like they do in real life societies - that because the consequences were so high, people might create their own sort of police force to help keep the peace.
The best example that I know of was Ultima Online. In UO, there was full-loot OW PvP with safe zones. And for a while it did seem like maybe people would figure out, on their own, how to police themselves. The problem with this theory, at least in my opinion, is that it did not take into account anonymity and consequences. In real life, you might suffer serious injury or worse for attacking someone. In real life, people see you and know you. Games eliminate these two things and so people go much further. After all, it's just a stupid game.
PvP games DON'T win best game. Not for anything. And there's a reason for that. Because most people don't like them.
PvP games are incredibly popular. MOBAs, FPSs, CCGs... I mean, PvP is just an incredibly popular component to gaming in general. Million dollar prizes are awarded. There was even a short stint where WoW was awarding fairly large amounts of money for arena play.
But I will agree that in MMORPGs in general, the PvP population seems to be much lower than the PvE population. There are probably a lot of factors baked into this: RNG, incredibly difficult to balance, failure is more common, gear differences, etc. But there is still a sizable chunk of people that like PvP in MMORPGs and there are also a lot of PvE players that like to dabble in it.
I remember discussing this with one of my friends. So, we also play other games like FPSs and stuff together. We were asking the question, why do we like MMORPG PvP so much? Eventually we came down to the conclusion that it was the variety in the combat. We preferred, more than other people, to have these battles that required a lot of knowledge about what you're facing and how to overcome it. If everyone has, say, 20 or 30 skills and there are 10 classes, that offers a different sort of challenge than being quick, accurate and tactical in an FPS. I think there is a place for MMORPGs and PvP especially BECAUSE of those reasons that they aren't popular (RNG, incredibly difficult to balance, failure is more common, gear differences, etc.).
Why would I want to beat people up?
So that I am not the one being beat up. I learned this mostly from EVE. Take every advantage over everyone. Never enter a fair fight. Overwhelming odds is key to success.
It's not that I like to hurt their egos or something (although mine has been hurt plenty of times), it's that if we all agree to the same ruleset, anything within that ruleset should go. It is a brutal sort of reality within a game when you can do a lot of damage to someone's progress, but those are the rules everyone agrees to in those games. And you are usually doing it for some kind of personal gain within the game (like taking their stuff or ensuring your safety from future encroachment).
And I certainly agree with you that if I couldn't get past level 1 because I was constantly being killed that I would not like that game.
No, because I would never play an open world PVP/PVE MMORPG with vertical level progression or vertical (basically unlimited, infinite) gear progression at all. Nor would I ever use that progression system in a pvp mmorpg. Not even on a single mmorpg pvp server. There is a different type of progression I would use. I would not use a system in a pvp game that allowed some players to be able to overpower other players simply because they played longer, played more hours, or paid more money. That's completely ridiculous in any pvp game that was, is, or will ever be made.
I like pvp because it is challenging. To me, more challenge means more fun. I'm not overly competitive, but sometimes competition can mean more challenge which = more fun for me.
I also believe that an open world pvp/pve realm vs realm sandbox mmorpg is the only way to attempt to create a realistic, dynamic, true role-playing game online without the need for incredibly advanced AI and/or VR.
You really shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know. It's not wise. I have barely played PvP in mmorpgs. Only sampled it in 2 or 3 really. I don't play PvP in mmorpgs because I know it is almost always unbalanced, unfair, and non-competitive. I would like to change that. You can't use systems based on D&D or other P&P rpgs (which are soley designed for PVE), and make a good PVP game. It's impossible. It will never happen. Unless you have gear score/item level like Neverwinter does, and you only allow people to queue in their accurate approximate item level for instanced pvp only (which Neverwinter does not do).
No stupid people put money into a model that only caters to a certain type of person, not all. SWTOR ran into the same roadblocks that all games do, reality vs what is promised for a game. A.Net did the same thing with GW2. Now we have SC, the boondoggles to end all boondoggles. I do not expect ANYTHING to come out of SC because they keep stretching goals while never really finishing anything. That is poor management and that is the key. For SWTOR, blame the developing company not the people who invested in the game. And if SWTOR did not do well, why would you think they would put money into something that has a niche market and has never done well.
Keep belittling people w/o giving constructive ideas is another reason why money people are staying away. They can make more money off of iPad Android games than a PvP centric game which caters to infantile people (there I said it). I HATE DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN A GAME. BORING REPETITIVE STUFF IS NOT FUN AND I PLAY GAMES FOR FUN. Right - freedom, after HOW many hours? 100 -200 hrs? When many people spend 3-4 hrs a week in a game that is a ridiculous amount of time to get any fun. Hell, they can go to work then, at least they get paid for that.
As far as your last sentence, the shoe can be placed on the other foot as well. It is the PvP'ers that do not understand that others don't care to play a game where you have to sit brainlessly grinding to get stuff only for asshats, coming around killing people because they are max level (ant that is all they do is grind and go to max level). Even when there are consequences these asshats don't care and that is the real sad part.
Maybe you can finance the game and show everyone how it is done.
Wow that has to be some crappy MMO you are playing. Not to be rude, but MMO's have moved away from allowing players to kill steal or Ninja loot, for the last decade, unless it's like WoW that has a cult following and can do whatever they like and millions of people will still love them, AAA title MMO's, like GW2, all have shared loot, and team victory.
also.. yah.. PvP players in MMO's, I agree with you 100%, those trolls are legendary... and yet you want to give them the ability to kill you at any time, any place... and you don't see the intrinsic problem with that?
"As far as your last sentence, the shoe can be placed on the other foot as well. It is the PvP'ers that do not understand that others don't care to play a game where you have to sit brainlessly grinding to get stuff only for asshats, coming around killing people because they are max level (ant that is all they do is grind and go to max level). Even when there are consequences these asshats don't care and that is the real sad part."
Refer to my signature.
Gonna have to disagree with you there, you can very much become successful in an established market, simply by offering a better quality product or offering the same product at a cheaper price.
Case in point, Wal*Mart, didn't do anything new, Sears, Macy's, and a slew of other brands already had the super-center/Department Store idea down, where Wal*Mart simply offered the same things at a much cheaper price, in fact they were in direct competition with K-Mart, simply by taking what K-mart did, and focusing on doing that better, they overtook the market.
Same thing happened with HomeDepot, crushing out many other "Department Hardware Stores"
You so too can enter a market, and become vastly successful, without doing anything new, as long as what you do, you better then your competitors.
For someone who don't care. You speak way to much.
SWTOR was better than WoW in nearly every regard. Companions made it easier to level support characters. Flashpoints allowed you to replay lower level content at higher levels and get worthwhile rewards for it. PvP arenas were playable and fun at every level and twinks didn't exist. (Until max level at least. Max level areas are where the PvP gear really started to kick in and you were just fodder for the people who had it until you acquired it as well.) Graphics were better. Storylines were cool. Some really super awesome mini-games like the space combat. Just all around a better game by most criteria.
Except WoW had an established playerbase and more content.
There will never be a WoW killer until WoW kills itself through it's own slow decline, and if there is, it will be nothing like WoW.
Except at launch the PvP was horribly horrible laggy. The zones were and still are still are incredibly small and restrictive.
A world was basically no more than a few fields with 1-2 access points. EQ zones have more access points than swtor does.
The entire game is bound together in total bioware fashion. Zones bound together by a travel screen.
It was more restrictive than when wow was.
But your right there won't be a wow killer.
Walmart crushed its competitors because most everything they sell is made in China at American and International Slave Factories. Where people often work eighteen hours a day, seven days a week. But there are so many people in China that people will put up with such abuse because they can't find a way to survive any other way. Also, Walmart has/had very wealthy and powerful investors. Some of those investors or backers or supporters represent banks and firms and interests controlled by certain individuals of whom most people have probably never heard.
Home Depot and other nation-wide corporations more often than not have similar operational methods and connections.
We can thank these sorts of corporations for largely destroying the ability of small businesses and ventures (such as mom and pop stores) to compete in the open market in the United States of America. That is why so many people cannot find a job these days. Not to mention that so many factories have been moved overseas. This is called Globalism, and it is destroying the world, one nation at a time.
Edit - and their supply chain management. Which I guess is pretty much the same thing.
Well since WalMart first opened in 1950 and really didn't start buying from China until the late 1980's (maybe later) you are, as usual speaking from ignorance. The better logistics and policy of selling at lower margins were established much earlier in the company's history.
One store offers the same soda you buy at another store for 10 cents less per can or a similar soda you like slightly better for the same price. What do lose by switching stores? Nothing.
One MMO offers the same general game experience as another MMO for slightly less or a slightly better experience for the same cost. You are currently playing the MMO who's market share they are trying to steal. You actually enjoy that MMO so you've invested hundreds or thousands of hours into your characters there and built a solid network of contacts and friends. What do you stand to lose by switching MMOs? Everything.
Who is actually interested in your new MMO? People unsatisfied by their current MMOs. What do those people want? Something the MMOs currently on the market aren't able to give them.