Because how many times are they going to let these type of things go unpunished. It is considered a scam in most every aspect and its illegal. Of course, I guess there is nothing to see since its only $20 per person for the most part and they donated it and wasn't made give it up? If I was them I wouldnt spend another dime on the game...just keep the money. It trivial afterall.
They leased a 5,300 square foot office in San Diego and paid for a year development with 15 employees. They probably spent more already than they received from kickstarter. That would be a terrible scam.
People should never pledge more to a project than they are willing to lose. It's like an episode of shark tank where you listen to their pitch and decide for yourself if you want to invest in the project. There is a very real chance I will lose all my money and I accept that. I am willing to take that risk. You aren't buying a game, you are investing in it.
They come across and very professional and smart. I have faith they can pull it off.
There's no reason why they can't shift to their own engine at this juncture. They claim to have the funding without Kickstarter. Boasting about funds that greatly exceed anything Camelot Unchained has come close to securing means we should expect a proper engine for this title.
It's a matter of which dragon you want to fight. Personally, I see Unreal as the lesser of dragons. Actually, you can find plenty of information out there on making an MMO in U4. Actually, there is even an MMO template you can buy which includes source code for world server, persistence, etc. for like $100. So even if it's shitty, it can get you running (or walking). It's either that or try to write your own engine and make things look good, which seems easy, but it's pretty non-trivial work.
Also, Lineage 2 used the Unreal engine and there were some very huge battles in that game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Yea there can be issues with UE4 but there can be issues with them building their own engine as well. So who cares what why they go? Only time will tell if they are successful.
On a side note, people posting a new topic with words in the headline "Massive concern" always makes me facepalm even before I have read the thread, of all the issues of the world, the OP has Massive concerns about a game, and to make it worse a game not even about to be released.
Perspective its like common sense, you cant teach it, but we all need it.
For instance it could be ok to use the term Massive concern if a game is or about to launch and there is a big scam going on, then yes post that heading with the warning, real life issue effecting people and money, however questioning if maybe, and with no proof that a game engine is suitable for a MMORPG, without trying it...Not so much.
No game engine available at the moment would allow be fitting for one MMO in terms of netcode, they are not created for that intent.
Hence they have to develop their own netcode to fit the needs of one MMO, that's just the deal.
This is changing rapidly ... hence my post earlier (SpacialOS which will work with current popular game engines). Developers are leasing game building engines to save time and money and now can build them upon a cloud networking engine that scales to their needs.
Your point is valid when considering recent mmo development (in this case I use the broader definition of an mmo). The industry is headed toward true massively online experiences across various genres of both gaming and software services. Mmorpgs are not the driving force behind this but can profit incredibly from this industry need (those doomsayers saying mmorpgs aren't an industry focus are both right and wrong).
Mmorpg as a genre has stagnated because of technical limitations. Improved graphics and engines that build these games effectively shrunk the worlds they attempt to create and the mmorpg as a vision has shrunk along with it. It has been waiting for an evolution in server networking tech to expand this vision once again.
The demand for expanding the tech to allow this is real or else it would not have received the massive investor funding and partnership with Google Cloud. Microsoft has also entered this market but time will tell how this directly affects mmorpg development outside of cross platform gaming inclusive of Xbox. Mark Jacobs also has to be given props for being one of the very first game developers to understand this as well (because of not giving up on the mmorpg genre).
An easy entry into cloud server based development for truly massive games (like SpacialOS supporting common game engines) will bring others to the table as the one technical hurdle for modern mmorpg development can finally be bypassed and accessed by developers who don't have 100+ million budgets and bound only to mass market industry (i.e. the return of niche genre gaming).
On a side note, people posting a new topic with words in the headline "Massive concern" always makes me facepalm even before I have read the thread, of all the issues of the world, the OP has Massive concerns about a game, and to make it worse a game not even about to be released.
Perspective its like common sense, you cant teach it, but we all need it.
For instance it could be ok to use the term Massive concern if a game is or about to launch and there is a big scam going on, then yes post that heading with the warning, real life issue effecting people and money, however questioning if maybe, and with no proof that a game engine is suitable for a MMORPG, without trying it...Not so much.
It is a massive concern for the reasons I've stated.
This is changing rapidly ... hence my post earlier (SpacialOS which will work with current popular game engines). Developers are leasing game building engines to save time and money and now can build them upon a cloud networking engine that scales to their needs.
Your point is valid when considering recent mmo development (in this case I use the broader definition of an mmo). The industry is headed toward true massively online experiences across various genres of both gaming and software services. Mmorpgs are not the driving force behind this but can profit incredibly from this industry need (those doomsayers saying mmorpgs aren't an industry focus are both right and wrong).
Mmorpg as a genre has stagnated because of technical limitations. Improved graphics and engines that build these games effectively shrunk the worlds they attempt to create and the mmorpg as a vision has shrunk along with it. It has been waiting for an evolution in server networking tech to expand this vision once again.
The demand for expanding the tech to allow this is real or else it would not have received the massive investor funding and partnership with Google Cloud. Microsoft has also entered this market but time will tell how this directly affects mmorpg development outside of cross platform gaming inclusive of Xbox. Mark Jacobs also has to be given props for being one of the very first game developers to understand this as well (because of not giving up on the mmorpg genre).
An easy entry into cloud server based development for truly massive games (like SpacialOS supporting common game engines) will bring others to the table as the one technical hurdle for modern mmorpg development can finally be bypassed and accessed by developers who don't have 100+ million budgets and bound only to mass market industry (i.e. the return of niche genre gaming).
Not that much, much of what engines are doing is cloud stuff now. However cloud fits very well online gaming, like for a game like Overwatch.
When it comes to MMO's, they need the most complex network setups of all, that is large worlds where everything persists, that on this days ambition for more complexity that is requiring very complex takes at netcode and networking to make it possible.
At the moment, it's something that wasn't done yet, SpacialOS is one thing around still to be one released game around making use of that technology, I think games like Dual Universe are going for it.
End of the day it still is, game engines are not made for this stuff by default, so that need to go or develop your own tech, or try to integrate other tech on your engine (like SpacialOS) is currently the deal.
This is changing rapidly ... hence my post earlier (SpacialOS which will work with current popular game engines). Developers are leasing game building engines to save time and money and now can build them upon a cloud networking engine that scales to their needs.
Your point is valid when considering recent mmo development (in this case I use the broader definition of an mmo). The industry is headed toward true massively online experiences across various genres of both gaming and software services. Mmorpgs are not the driving force behind this but can profit incredibly from this industry need (those doomsayers saying mmorpgs aren't an industry focus are both right and wrong).
Mmorpg as a genre has stagnated because of technical limitations. Improved graphics and engines that build these games effectively shrunk the worlds they attempt to create and the mmorpg as a vision has shrunk along with it. It has been waiting for an evolution in server networking tech to expand this vision once again.
The demand for expanding the tech to allow this is real or else it would not have received the massive investor funding and partnership with Google Cloud. Microsoft has also entered this market but time will tell how this directly affects mmorpg development outside of cross platform gaming inclusive of Xbox. Mark Jacobs also has to be given props for being one of the very first game developers to understand this as well (because of not giving up on the mmorpg genre).
An easy entry into cloud server based development for truly massive games (like SpacialOS supporting common game engines) will bring others to the table as the one technical hurdle for modern mmorpg development can finally be bypassed and accessed by developers who don't have 100+ million budgets and bound only to mass market industry (i.e. the return of niche genre gaming).
Not that much, much of what engines are doing is cloud stuff now. However cloud fits very well online gaming, like for a game like Overwatch.
When it comes to MMO's, they need the most complex network setups of all, that is large worlds where everything persists, that on this days ambition for more complexity that is requiring very complex takes at netcode and networking to make it possible.
At the moment, it's something that wasn't done yet, SpacialOS is one thing around still to be one released game around making use of that technology, I think games like Dual Universe are going for it.
End of the day it still is, game engines are not made for this stuff by default, so that need to go or develop your own tech, or try to integrate other tech on your engine (like SpacialOS) is currently the deal.
You will have to expand your point because that was precisely my own point. You are adding nothing new.
What we are talking about when discussing this cloud tech is seamless zone transition and off loading allowing existing engines to scale to upon demand while emulating a unified, massive playscape. Something they do not have as a native feature, regardless if zones are set across cloud or physical servers (which still requires zone loading time) ... hence the point of discussion.
Using Unreal, Unity or any other engine means you have to build out parts yourself to accommodate an MMORPG. I would think this would be common knowledge at this point.
The benefit of using them is that you don't have to build out everything else that actually does work in a massively multiplayer game. The current belief is studios will still ultimately save time in the end due to that fact.
Using Unreal, Unity or any other engine means you have to build out parts yourself to accommodate an MMORPG. I would think this would be common knowledge at this point.
The benefit of using them is that you don't have to build out everything else that actually does work in a massively multiplayer game. The current belief is studios will still ultimately save time in the end due to that fact.
They will save time and they will save money but history has shown us that it doesn't work quite as well as proprietary engines: Black Desert Online, GW2, etc
Every MMORPG I've played that is powered by Unreal or Cryengine for that matter look nice, but absolutely buckle under the pressure of things that make an MMORPG an MMORPG... PEOPLE!
I don't know who is at fault but it seems like we need the highest of high end CPUs to mitigate the performance loss.
The idea of doing all this just for games that are gonna P2W, RNG and Cash Shop players to death is silly.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Not to say all off the shelf engines are created equal, but in the case of Unity and Unreal, those struggling to adapt them are probably more likely to have even greater problems building their own engine.
Not to say all off the shelf engines are created equal, but in the case of Unity and Unreal, those struggling to adapt them are probably more likely to have even greater problems building their own engine.
Both Unity and Unreal have major issues out of the box when it comes to MMOs - more specifically how they handle 50+ players on screen.
Great for single and multiplayer games but not good for MMOs without major custom code.
True, but I think those deficiencies could be addressed and corrected ... by an extremely talented netcode team; emphasis on 'extremely talented'.
Not to say all off the shelf engines are created equal, but in the case of Unity and Unreal, those struggling to adapt them are probably more likely to have even greater problems building their own engine.
Both Unity and Unreal have major issues out of the box when it comes to MMOs - more specifically how they handle 50+ players on screen.
Great for single and multiplayer games but not good for MMOs without major custom code.
And yet still far less custom code than an engine from scratch. That's the point here.
When they say UE4 is not ideal for MMO's they are talking about their current Network engine in place. It has nothing to do with the engine, as any MMO would make their own Network engine to plug into Unreal. The only reason Epic have said this time and time again is because people always ask if they can make an MMO with UE4. Once you start changing the code and integrating your own network protocols you unlock all kinds of possibilities.
As for 50+ Players on a screen I see modern MMO's having issues with this. This is where LOD comes into play for players not near you. UE4 has one of the best LOD Scaling methods in place as compared to some engines. Just lots of Devs do not utilize it until out of Beta / Alpha this is when optimization starts being worked on because it is a heavy task, each change requires more optimization, so I would expect any Beta / Alpha using UE4 MMO wise to have problems until release.
Also wasn't Linage 2 on the early Unreal Engine when people said it was impossible for Unreal Engine to be used for MMO's as it was just a shooter engine ?
When they say UE4 is not ideal for MMO's they are talking about their current Network engine in place. It has nothing to do with the engine, as any MMO would make their own Network engine to plug into Unreal. The only reason Epic have said this time and time again is because people always ask if they can make an MMO with UE4. Once you start changing the code and integrating your own network protocols you unlock all kinds of possibilities.
As for 50+ Players on a screen I see modern MMO's having issues with this. This is where LOD comes into play for players not near you. UE4 has one of the best LOD Scaling methods in place as compared to some engines. Just lots of Devs do not utilize it until out of Beta / Alpha this is when optimization starts being worked on because it is a heavy task, each change requires more optimization, so I would expect any Beta / Alpha using UE4 MMO wise to have problems until release.
Also wasn't Linage 2 on the early Unreal Engine when people said it was impossible for Unreal Engine to be used for MMO's as it was just a shooter engine ?
Every MMO using Unreal has its own back end. TERA has its own net code and back end, Lineage did, Bless does, Dark and Light does. The issue lies within how the engine communicates with the net code.
The engine still has to communicate with the back end. It has to tell Client A that Client B is swinging its axe in the direction of Client C, while moving away from Client F. The way the engine deals with sync is what causes the issues when communicating.
Client C may see the axe later than Client A while a twenty - thirty man force arrives on a nearby hill. Then each of these clients have to be told where they are, what they are doing, over and over again, hundreds of times a second. The graphics engine is now telling the net code, depending on how it's written, where each of these people are in relation to the client information being derived from multiple locations across the planet(clients). The means to which the engine communicates with the back end in terms of Unreal is similar to how an FPS game deals with information. This creates unnecessary load and sooner than later the hardware of the clients and server are unable to cope due to the excessive amounts of player characters interacting. The engine tries to load balance with the net code and hitching begins to occur. Clients catch up at a slower or faster rate depending on numerous factors. All your actions, if you are a client, may now be delayed or occur in one burst. For example, you may simply just suddenly be dead or your abilities won't be working. Continued input from the clients and the Unreal engines inability to deal with information on this scale (rapidly pressing your abilities) only contributes to this problem further.
Subsequently, the development team tries to lessen the information the Unreal engine is sending or make it so it's more relevant and not over checked as it is in an FPS game. This now contributes to more problems, more hitching, packet loss, and new bugs like jerking, glitching, teleporting, and more lag. They then try to fix this problem again only resulting in more problems as they play whack-a-mole making patches to fix the patch that broke the patch.
Every MMO using Unreal has its own back end. TERA has its own net code and back end, Lineage did, Bless does, Dark and Light does. The issue lies within how the engine communicates with the net code.
The engine still has to communicate with the back end. It has to tell Client A that Client B is swinging its axe in the direction of Client C, while moving away from Client F. The way the engine deals with sync is what causes the issues when communicating.
Yes I know this not sure if I said they didn't use it's own netcode (looked back, nope I didn't, thanks for telling me what I already know), but every engine also has to deal with being in sync. I know Mortal Online had the Epic Games team helping them with sync issues years ago making changes to the core engine if I recall correctly. The engine has actually got a lot better dealing with sync than its UE3 counterpart.
In fact if I look back I remember EQ2 having sync issues. Planetside 2 also has sync issues during Beta/Tech Test. It is not only Unreal Engine that suffers from this, it is just a hurdle you have to overcome when working with engines.
I won't reply to your next post because you want to be right. When in fact you are not, no where near even...
They could adapt the server system for their MMO requirements. This requires specific knowledge about server load handling and is not really the same as being able to run your own dedicated server for a game. UE4 could still be used to create the rest of the game. It is more like a tool to be used, and not actually the engine that will run the game It poops out source code that you could still change afterwards if you want. You can also modify the game engine (UE gives you access to its source code).
The alternative, creating their own game engine is a silly huge task for a kickstarter funded game. That would take a lot more time (and money) and developers that can actually do that.
A game engine is also not a magic wand. I read comments here about how easy it is suppose to be to create a nice looking game trailer, as if creating good looking 3D models and animation is that easy. And even with the assets finished, it is still not easy to make a good looking trailer. That is like saying, making a good movie is easy, you just need some people, a background and a camera.
After viewing the recent demonstration found here I noticed a bit of hardware lag. It seems to be low FPS. I understand it is pre-alpha but the engine is not in pre-alpha.
Games with that many players like Paragon do not exhibit that type of lag. Again Unreal its self is not in any way in a "testing" phase.
If you want an example of how poorly Unreal can be used in multiplayer online games go try Marvel Heroes AND they had Brevik on the project. OP is bringing up a valid point by saying that Unreal may not be the best engine "for everything they are promising".
If you want an example of how poorly Unreal can be used in multiplayer online games go try Marvel Heroes AND they had Brevik on the project. OP is bringing up a valid point by saying that Unreal may not be the best engine "for everything they are promising".
Thank you, as people can see I am not being unreasonable. This engine could spell disaster.
I agree there is concern but it's the solution to the issue that bothers me as much as the chance for failure. What I notice in the demos of the game is similar to what ESO did to their world. Most of the maps you run around on are built to block line of sight and have particle/weather/fog of war type limitations to viewing distance. Traveling was often chopped up by narrow paths, valleys and cliff faces. It was all very distracting and claustrophobic.
If I continue to see this in this game it will be rather unsettling.
I agree there is concern but it's the solution to the issue that bothers me as much as the chance for failure. What I notice in the demos of the game is similar to what ESO did to their world. Most of the maps you run around on are built to block line of sight and have particle/weather/fog of war type limitations to viewing distance. Traveling was often chopped up by narrow paths, valleys and cliff faces. It was all very distracting and claustrophobic.
If I continue to see this in this game it will be rather unsettling.
sorry but the vistas shown so far are anything but claustrophobic...
I agree there is concern but it's the solution to the issue that bothers me as much as the chance for failure. What I notice in the demos of the game is similar to what ESO did to their world. Most of the maps you run around on are built to block line of sight and have particle/weather/fog of war type limitations to viewing distance. Traveling was often chopped up by narrow paths, valleys and cliff faces. It was all very distracting and claustrophobic.
If I continue to see this in this game it will be rather unsettling.
sorry but the vistas shown so far are anything but claustrophobic...
Look again from the character perspective using the player client ... not sky high vistas. You will see the distant fog and the inability to see vast distances from the character's point of view due to hills, trees and effects. There is a reason it exists.
Comments
People should never pledge more to a project than they are willing to lose. It's like an episode of shark tank where you listen to their pitch and decide for yourself if you want to invest in the project. There is a very real chance I will lose all my money and I accept that. I am willing to take that risk. You aren't buying a game, you are investing in it.
They come across and very professional and smart. I have faith they can pull it off.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Hence they have to develop their own netcode to fit the needs of one MMO, that's just the deal.
Perspective its like common sense, you cant teach it, but we all need it.
For instance it could be ok to use the term Massive concern if a game is or about to launch and there is a big scam going on, then yes post that heading with the warning, real life issue effecting people and money, however questioning if maybe, and with no proof that a game engine is suitable for a MMORPG, without trying it...Not so much.
Your point is valid when considering recent mmo development (in this case I use the broader definition of an mmo). The industry is headed toward true massively online experiences across various genres of both gaming and software services. Mmorpgs are not the driving force behind this but can profit incredibly from this industry need (those doomsayers saying mmorpgs aren't an industry focus are both right and wrong).
Mmorpg as a genre has stagnated because of technical limitations. Improved graphics and engines that build these games effectively shrunk the worlds they attempt to create and the mmorpg as a vision has shrunk along with it. It has been waiting for an evolution in server networking tech to expand this vision once again.
The demand for expanding the tech to allow this is real or else it would not have received the massive investor funding and partnership with Google Cloud. Microsoft has also entered this market but time will tell how this directly affects mmorpg development outside of cross platform gaming inclusive of Xbox. Mark Jacobs also has to be given props for being one of the very first game developers to understand this as well (because of not giving up on the mmorpg genre).
An easy entry into cloud server based development for truly massive games (like SpacialOS supporting common game engines) will bring others to the table as the one technical hurdle for modern mmorpg development can finally be bypassed and accessed by developers who don't have 100+ million budgets and bound only to mass market industry (i.e. the return of niche genre gaming).
You stay sassy!
When it comes to MMO's, they need the most complex network setups of all, that is large worlds where everything persists, that on this days ambition for more complexity that is requiring very complex takes at netcode and networking to make it possible.
At the moment, it's something that wasn't done yet, SpacialOS is one thing around still to be one released game around making use of that technology, I think games like Dual Universe are going for it.
End of the day it still is, game engines are not made for this stuff by default, so that need to go or develop your own tech, or try to integrate other tech on your engine (like SpacialOS) is currently the deal.
What we are talking about when discussing this cloud tech is seamless zone transition and off loading allowing existing engines to scale to upon demand while emulating a unified, massive playscape. Something they do not have as a native feature, regardless if zones are set across cloud or physical servers (which still requires zone loading time) ... hence the point of discussion.
You stay sassy!
The benefit of using them is that you don't have to build out everything else that actually does work in a massively multiplayer game. The current belief is studios will still ultimately save time in the end due to that fact.
I don't know who is at fault but it seems like we need the highest of high end CPUs to mitigate the performance loss.
The idea of doing all this just for games that are gonna P2W, RNG and Cash Shop players to death is silly.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Can't get my pen to write in this space.
As for 50+ Players on a screen I see modern MMO's having issues with this. This is where LOD comes into play for players not near you. UE4 has one of the best LOD Scaling methods in place as compared to some engines. Just lots of Devs do not utilize it until out of Beta / Alpha this is when optimization starts being worked on because it is a heavy task, each change requires more optimization, so I would expect any Beta / Alpha using UE4 MMO wise to have problems until release.
Also wasn't Linage 2 on the early Unreal Engine when people said it was impossible for Unreal Engine to be used for MMO's as it was just a shooter engine ?
The engine still has to communicate with the back end. It has to tell Client A that Client B is swinging its axe in the direction of Client C, while moving away from Client F. The way the engine deals with sync is what causes the issues when communicating.
Client C may see the axe later than Client A while a twenty - thirty man force arrives on a nearby hill. Then each of these clients have to be told where they are, what they are doing, over and over again, hundreds of times a second. The graphics engine is now telling the net code, depending on how it's written, where each of these people are in relation to the client information being derived from multiple locations across the planet(clients). The means to which the engine communicates with the back end in terms of Unreal is similar to how an FPS game deals with information. This creates unnecessary load and sooner than later the hardware of the clients and server are unable to cope due to the excessive amounts of player characters interacting. The engine tries to load balance with the net code and hitching begins to occur. Clients catch up at a slower or faster rate depending on numerous factors. All your actions, if you are a client, may now be delayed or occur in one burst. For example, you may simply just suddenly be dead or your abilities won't be working. Continued input from the clients and the Unreal engines inability to deal with information on this scale (rapidly pressing your abilities) only contributes to this problem further.
Subsequently, the development team tries to lessen the information the Unreal engine is sending or make it so it's more relevant and not over checked as it is in an FPS game. This now contributes to more problems, more hitching, packet loss, and new bugs like jerking, glitching, teleporting, and more lag. They then try to fix this problem again only resulting in more problems as they play whack-a-mole making patches to fix the patch that broke the patch.
This isn't new, it's been going on for years.
In fact if I look back I remember EQ2 having sync issues. Planetside 2 also has sync issues during Beta/Tech Test. It is not only Unreal Engine that suffers from this, it is just a hurdle you have to overcome when working with engines.
I won't reply to your next post because you want to be right. When in fact you are not, no where near even...
UE4 could still be used to create the rest of the game. It is more like a tool to be used, and not actually the engine that will run the game
The alternative, creating their own game engine is a silly huge task for a kickstarter funded game. That would take a lot more time (and money) and developers that can actually do that.
A game engine is also not a magic wand. I read comments here about how easy it is suppose to be to create a nice looking game trailer, as if creating good looking 3D models and animation is that easy. And even with the assets finished, it is still not easy to make a good looking trailer. That is like saying, making a good movie is easy, you just need some people, a background and a camera.
Games with that many players like Paragon do not exhibit that type of lag. Again Unreal its self is not in any way in a "testing" phase.
If I continue to see this in this game it will be rather unsettling.
You stay sassy!
You stay sassy!