I agree with BizkitNL's response above, in that too many people get offended too easily..
into a locked room for a two-hour discussion or brawl and see how it turns out..
I don't think it's about being offended too easily. I think it's about expecting professional customer service.
Not having will eventually make such interactions escalate and pretty much just promotes and antagonist environment.
It also just adds to the whole negative "little boy/girl" culture that video games seem to have.
Isn't he the community manager? That's different from customer service. I expect total different things from those two. In no way, I want my community manager to stick to the same principle as my customer service.
I am not getting into what are my principles regarding my own business and compare it to this situation or Blizzard's. Just suggesting those two are different.
Am I the only one who thinks that a community manager should be even better than a customer service rep at interacting with the players?
Bingo we have a winner.
Not sure you saw the "CSM's reply, I'm not sure they are even paid employees, looks like they might be player volunteers with privileges.
Our team is not part of Customer Service, and
we don't necessarily adhere to the same levels of 'professionalism' that
they may in their day-to-day, and, even when we do, it's very much
relaxed as it is in most of the industry. Not trying to put down our
Customer Service compatriots in any way, they do a stellar job, I just
think its important to note that our teams goals are different. My goal
here is first and foremost engagement and community-building, and I'm
given free rein to do that as I see fit (albeit to my own pleasure and
detriment). I appreciate everyone here who talks about their time in CS
roles, I've had some experience in them myself, and I understand the
difference of the role vs the audience in both capacities.
I am going to be honest, the CM was dead on. If you haven't done the content you don't have a right to grip about there not being any content. Sorry if that hurts some peoples feelings, but what he said was right. To me it doesn't matter if the poster was right or wrong to be honest as he didn't earn the right to grip about lack of something when he hadn't even done what they have. This is like the people that rush to max level and skip 2/3 of the game gripping well I don't have anything to do now.
Actually, it turns out that the person posting has a much, much deeper progression in Legion than he insinuates. With WoW, looking at a poster's character Armory reveals only what that CHARACTER has accomplished in the first Armory tab. It requires looking into the Achievement tab of the Armory to see what has been accomplished ACCOUNT-wide. He chose to take a cheap shot at a CHARACTER without looking into the player's full ACCOUNT.
That right there is extremely unprofessional as the CM either doesn't know how the armory works or they chose to ignore the account wide achievements just to sham them... Not only is that unprofessional it undermines the CM's claim of being an expert.
Playing the devil's advocate, and if you take a look at other responses in general to the AK acquisition method, Mythic raiders are saying the same thing. It seems odd, IMO, to have argued back with someone's single line post over those with much more substantive posts and more experience in Legion.
I don't disagree with what he said, but how it was said.
I tend to agree with you here..We aren't professionals...He said that. Well, ok so do you expect to be taken seriously? Because as soon as you published that statement, you are not much more than a joke.
imo, of course.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Playing the devil's advocate, and if you take a look at other responses in general to the AK acquisition method, Mythic raiders are saying the same thing. It seems odd, IMO, to have argued back with someone's single line post over those with much more substantive posts and more experience in Legion.
I don't disagree with what he said, but how it was said.
I agree for the most part, professionalism in player interaction is ideal, conversely however players should attempt to at least to be polite and reasonable, how would a store clerk react if you walked in and told them "I don't want 90% of what you've got in here, this shop sucks!" they would politely direct you outside..
Regardless, the person writing on the WoW forum never called the CM unprofessional. He said it himself. In addition, and if you'd bothered to have read the links provided in the article, the person you're accusing of "trolling" wasn't offended and even said so in later, more substantive posts.
Reading the threads for yourself before posting hyperbolic statements might be informative.
Reading the threads for yourself before posting hyperbolic statements might be informative.
Great Expectations - 1861 Charles Dickens
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I look at this how a business owner would. If I saw an employee try to persuade my customer to leave, the employee would no longer work for me - it would be very swift and very simple. My staff and I do our very best, and some go above and beyond. I would be furious, along with the people that depend on the continued success of my business. Sounds like the CM lost sight of their duties.
I'm more concerned with the expansion shaming. People who read those criticisms of the expansion may experience doubt that their own purchase was in vain and this unsolicited exposure to buyers remorse isn't fair.
The CM was merely trying to protect the financial integrity of those who like the expansion.
The thing is that there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of posts about the nature of Legion. Most are well-written, well-considered, fact filled and informative about what many players are thinking -- most from people who are HIGHLY engaged in Legion.
Ornyx chose a single rhetorical comment in a long, long thread (again one of hundreds) to respond to by shaming the person. He apparently can't do that to a more substantive post, I guess.
Once again, it's not WHAT was said. It was HOW it was said.
Consider the message, not how it's delivered. All people are different, therefore their delivery will be too. Consider the message.
That being said I certainly can see if the %75 of content the guy has to look forward is associated with AP grind why he feels the way he does.
Ok so as someone that has played WoW at a fairly high level for the better part of the last 11 years, I figured I would weigh in on this one...
I think what the poster meant to ask is, "What is there to do in Legion that doesn't revolve around grinding AP??". I agree with the CM that there is more to do in Legion than there was in most prior expansions albeit most of it revolves around grinding AP. With that said though, I also feel similar to the OP, with all there is to do, none of it is much fun.
If you are into PVE you either raid (which is in a disasterous state right now due to titanforging, RNG on legendaries, and overturning issues on most bosses at a mythic level. You do world quests, which are the same ones we have been doing since the expansion dropped, mostly to just grind AP. Or you can do mythic plus dungeons which are also the same dungeons that we have been farming since September. Sure they have added the Legion invasion island but that is basically just more world quests.
If PvP is your thing, all I can say is sorry, this expansion isn't for you. Better luck next time! Competitive PVP participation is at an all time low.
So sure there is a ton to do but none of it is creative, inventive, new, or interesting. They keep adding new things but the new things are just more of the same.
I am a mythic level raider and I have quit my raid team and hardly ever log in anymore. I just don't have it in me to watch whatever guild I join fall apart due to either player burnout (mostly due to AP grinding) or because we hit sticking points in progression. And I sure as heck don't feel like running maw of souls or Eye of Ashara for the 100th + time.
This got extremely long winded, I apologize but I can appreciate what the OP was getting at and in addition I kind of understand what the CM was saying as well although he did it in a smug way.
@squishydew@Pappabeardk - Care to enlighten us apart from grinding mythics + for AP and raiding(2-4 hours 3-4 times a week) what's there to do exactly?
PvP is attrocious so I won't even talk about that crap. I'm interested on what else is there beside that?
25%... pff that's 100% of the expansion.
Now someone will throw timewalking, brawlers, the stupid events where you fly with baloons and other similar crap... That's not new content. That's old crap that can at most entertain you for 1-2 hours/week.
In WoD I could at least play with my alts, but here... If I'm going to spend time on my alt I might as well farm AP on my main, so that I don't lag too much behind the rest and end up in a situation where I'm not being picked for even level 10 mythics +...
Also I know that a lot of people will say that there is old stuff to be done, but you have to understand that there are a lot of people like me who have done almost all the old stuff.
I personally have close to 23k achievement points and if I feel like it I can raise them to 25k + in a month, but I don't have the interest anymore.
I have 319 mounts and within a month they can be close to 340, but again I don't have the interest anymore.
So please enlighten us what's there to do beside farming old content? Because in the "new content" there are only mythic+ and nothing else.
People really need to stop white knighting and face the facts. While there might be a bit more to the game at the moment beside mythic+, most people would still choose to do mythic+ over anything else, because the artifact and legendary system is not only flawed, but total crap.
Just because you don't like the content, doesn't mean it's not content. But I guess that's hard to see over selfishness
My take is that the CM reflected internal Blizzard attitudes. In other words, if you aren't a dedicated PvPer or raider, they just don't care what you think about the game.
This is pretty much in line with the general sense that Blizzard exudes with their "We want player experience to be this or that" or "We want this fantasy for players" and if you don't sheepily trot in the direction the devs point you in, then they really don't care what you think. It's their ball and you aren't playing by their rules. Go home.
And that dismissive attitude towards players who prefer to play only what they like came through loud and clear in the CM's original posting and the follow up.
WOW is the worst thing that happened to mmo`s!
this average overpriced game will just go on all they do is release an dlc every year and the fan boys buy it and subscribe,they should have made a new mmo a long time ago no its easier just making a dlc and 8 million fan boys that has no taste eat it up!
I look at this how a business owner would. If I saw an employee try to persuade my customer to leave, the employee would no longer work for me - it would be very swift and very simple. My staff and I do our very best, and some go above and beyond. I would be furious, along with the people that depend on the continued success of my business. Sounds like the CM lost sight of their duties.
It's a little different when your customers are immature children intent on publicly slandering your product at every turn.
People are getting fed up. They have played WoW for far too long but cannot bear to stop playing so they come on the forum and take out their grievances and yes even if they are well thought out and written exquisitely they are still grievances whose root problem is simply playing far too long.
While every expansion does introduce new things the developers while charging a monthly fee are expected to give more. When they are failing obviously as is demonstrated by numerous other posts similar to this vein they have to be defensive. How do you address this issue without destroying the whole. The game needs to go F2P or may be stop putting out expansions that advertise more engaging and consuming content when it is not so for weary players.
WoW needs to either completely revamp their game which I believe they have tried or offer different server specializations and other ways to keep people subbed and happy. Daybreak keeps introducing 'do-overs' which seem popular. May be this way the bored players will find other ways to enjoy WoW. The game has lost its charm but people simply cannot bring themselves to admit it and divorce themselves from it, so the forums seem the way they release their unhappiness over having willingly chained themselves to something they can no longer stand.
It didn't sound too bad to me, but he probably could have got into a more productive discussion if he had worded the response differently. If someone has only 25% achievement but feels that there is nothing left to do except to grind out artefact power, either there is something the player is missing, or 75% of the armoury achievement amounts to very lazy content: seems to be something worth talking about rather than getting into a fight over.
I found his follow up comment on professionalism to be much more worrying to be honest.
Playing the devil's advocate, and if you take a look at other responses in general to the AK acquisition method, Mythic raiders are saying the same thing. It seems odd, IMO, to have argued back with someone's single line post over those with much more substantive posts and more experience in Legion.
I don't disagree with what he said, but how it was said.
WOW players are too sensitive, on the EVE forums the Devs would have slapped such a comment down and mocked you for it. Then the players would have piled on.
It's a cruel world and as noted, CSM's are not Customer Support, doesn't sound like they are even employees so you can't expect total professionalism.
Besides, this is the internet, not a good place for those with thin skins.
Funny, last time I posted on EvE's forums the dev was on my thread PLEADING that they needed people to try their then new space infantry expansion ... even with a please.
The CM is right. Legion is maybe WoW's most content rich expansion. Someone who engages in just 25% off the offered activities and then goes to complain that aside AP farming there is nothing else to do is either trolling or speaking out of his ass.
Despite people posting to the devs about that instance problems during beta, on live realms it still exists: the loot phase is not in it's own instance, so any disconnects the players can;t loot what they already finished.
Poof gone.
All I asked was for a refund for the 2000 mana so I could return to the instance to do it again. Even that is impossible now.
Bad instance design. Not caring about the beta reports of how disconnects affect the final loot prize phase. And the CM closed the ticket and acted that it was simple to get the mana again, before I can respond to say otherwise (with the screenshot above).
I'm a stroke survivor, and anything now in WoW is a challenge to MOVE even. That 2000 mana took me a long time to farm and losing it isn't about pride, it's about even playing the damn game.
When something is broke; or not designed well; and avenues to communicate this is ignored or denied ... yeah, Blizzard has attitude and design problems from it's dev core (obviously as they hired Furor and his guild buddies who have horrible people skills).
Playing the devil's advocate, and if you take a look at other responses in general to the AK acquisition method, Mythic raiders are saying the same thing. It seems odd, IMO, to have argued back with someone's single line post over those with much more substantive posts and more experience in Legion.
I don't disagree with what he said, but how it was said.
WOW players are too sensitive, on the EVE forums the Devs would have slapped such a comment down and mocked you for it. Then the players would have piled on.
It's a cruel world and as noted, CSM's are not Customer Support, doesn't sound like they are even employees so you can't expect total professionalism.
Besides, this is the internet, not a good place for those with thin skins.
Funny, last time I posted on EvE's forums the dev was on my thread PLEADING that they needed people to try their then new space infantry expansion ... even with a please.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well that is the typical clueless response these days from Blizzard. I doubt I achieved more than 10% of the content, but it was clearly obvious the entire expansion was all about major grinding of legendary's. Hence I ended a long time subscription to Wow within two months of release.
It does not matter at what point you are in the grind, the complaint is entirely legitimate. They took all the fun out of the game entirely and if they cannot see that then I feel sorry for them.
The CM is right. Legion is maybe WoW's most content rich expansion. Someone who engages in just 25% off the offered activities and then goes to complain that aside AP farming there is nothing else to do is either trolling or speaking out of his ass.
Sorry, but I have to completely disagree with your post. Legion is completely about the AP grind. There is basically very little else. The last expansion had oodles more interesting things to do than this one. The just took all the fun out of the game with this expansion. It is not just me either, people I have played this game with for years all agree. This is by far the worst expansion because of lack of any sort of fun.
The CM is right. Legion is maybe WoW's most content rich expansion. Someone who engages in just 25% off the offered activities and then goes to complain that aside AP farming there is nothing else to do is either trolling or speaking out of his ass.
Eeeeh well beating a boss like this instead of that isn't too compelling imo.
I've never been a fan of achievements .The game changed a lot when Blizzard went all in on them. Instead of making more things to do achievements just ended being different ways to do the same old stuff.
Seems i can read more into it than most even notice.
Kaplan's response was priceless and proves he doesn't have a clue to what he is talking about,good thing he is charge.
He says "get geared" and learn to play.
First of all GEAR has NOTHING to do with learning how to play a game and secondly SKILL should NOT be related to gear but something entirely different.
I have said many times,i despise Wow's generalized design towards gear and gear grinding.What is there to learn,how to grind?I am pretty sure 99.9% of the gaming populace knows exactly what grinding is,so yeah i think Kaplan should keep his yap closed because he doesn't understand anything,too busy counting all his money i guess.
Even a game i am playing right now "Project Gorgon" suffers from the same handcuffed problem...gear based.I don't like feeling i as a player am not very important to the outcomes and that the virtual items are a much bigger factor.
Speaking on the same topic,it is also why i quit FFXIV,gear grinds are a very lame way to design a game,it is also a LAZY way to design a game.
Also on the same topic,the player who said he had nothing to do perhaps wants REAL content and NOT instance gaming,perhaps he wants to feel like he is in a RPG and a MMO,but all Blizzard execs look at is the check list,they should try designing a proper mmorpg instead of a pile of lazy instances, then they can chime in about players complaining.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
I also question why Blizzard would allow such a thing.
Here's are two nice Warren Buffet quotes:
"If you lose money for the firm I will be understanding. If you lose reputation I will be ruthless."
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That right there is extremely unprofessional as the CM either doesn't know how the armory works or they chose to ignore the account wide achievements just to sham them... Not only is that unprofessional it undermines the CM's claim of being an expert.
I tend to agree with you here..We aren't professionals...He said that. Well, ok so do you expect to be taken seriously? Because as soon as you published that statement, you are not much more than a joke.
imo, of course.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
conversely however players should attempt to at least to be polite and reasonable, how would a store clerk react if you walked in and told them "I don't want 90% of what you've got in here, this shop sucks!" they would politely direct you outside..
Regardless, the person writing on the WoW forum never called the CM unprofessional. He said it himself. In addition, and if you'd bothered to have read the links provided in the article, the person you're accusing of "trolling" wasn't offended and even said so in later, more substantive posts.
Reading the threads for yourself before posting hyperbolic statements might be informative.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Charles Dickens
The CM was merely trying to protect the financial integrity of those who like the expansion.
Consider the message, not how it's delivered. All people are different, therefore their delivery will be too. Consider the message.
That being said I certainly can see if the %75 of content the guy has to look forward is associated with AP grind why he feels the way he does.
I think what the poster meant to ask is, "What is there to do in Legion that doesn't revolve around grinding AP??". I agree with the CM that there is more to do in Legion than there was in most prior expansions albeit most of it revolves around grinding AP. With that said though, I also feel similar to the OP, with all there is to do, none of it is much fun.
If you are into PVE you either raid (which is in a disasterous state right now due to titanforging, RNG on legendaries, and overturning issues on most bosses at a mythic level. You do world quests, which are the same ones we have been doing since the expansion dropped, mostly to just grind AP. Or you can do mythic plus dungeons which are also the same dungeons that we have been farming since September. Sure they have added the Legion invasion island but that is basically just more world quests.
If PvP is your thing, all I can say is sorry, this expansion isn't for you. Better luck next time! Competitive PVP participation is at an all time low.
So sure there is a ton to do but none of it is creative, inventive, new, or interesting. They keep adding new things but the new things are just more of the same.
I am a mythic level raider and I have quit my raid team and hardly ever log in anymore. I just don't have it in me to watch whatever guild I join fall apart due to either player burnout (mostly due to AP grinding) or because we hit sticking points in progression. And I sure as heck don't feel like running maw of souls or Eye of Ashara for the 100th + time.
This got extremely long winded, I apologize but I can appreciate what the OP was getting at and in addition I kind of understand what the CM was saying as well although he did it in a smug way.
Just because you don't like the content, doesn't mean it's not content. But I guess that's hard to see over selfishness
This is pretty much in line with the general sense that Blizzard exudes with their "We want player experience to be this or that" or "We want this fantasy for players" and if you don't sheepily trot in the direction the devs point you in, then they really don't care what you think. It's their ball and you aren't playing by their rules. Go home.
And that dismissive attitude towards players who prefer to play only what they like came through loud and clear in the CM's original posting and the follow up.
this average overpriced game will just go on all they do is release an dlc every year and the fan boys buy it and subscribe,they should have made a new mmo a long time ago no its easier just making a dlc and 8 million fan boys that has no taste eat it up!
While every expansion does introduce new things the developers while charging a monthly fee are expected to give more. When they are failing obviously as is demonstrated by numerous other posts similar to this vein they have to be defensive. How do you address this issue without destroying the whole. The game needs to go F2P or may be stop putting out expansions that advertise more engaging and consuming content when it is not so for weary players.
WoW needs to either completely revamp their game which I believe they have tried or offer different server specializations and other ways to keep people subbed and happy. Daybreak keeps introducing 'do-overs' which seem popular. May be this way the bored players will find other ways to enjoy WoW. The game has lost its charm but people simply cannot bring themselves to admit it and divorce themselves from it, so the forums seem the way they release their unhappiness over having willingly chained themselves to something they can no longer stand.
I found his follow up comment on professionalism to be much more worrying to be honest.
Funny, last time I posted on EvE's forums the dev was on my thread PLEADING that they needed people to try their then new space infantry expansion ... even with a please.
Their forums are no different than WoW (same people play both games)...
http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae185/Kevyne-Shandris/EvEIPlayWoW.png~original
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
https://plus.google.com/105114600845128104098/posts/3vnRcfS3fe8
Despite people posting to the devs about that instance problems during beta, on live realms it still exists: the loot phase is not in it's own instance, so any disconnects the players can;t loot what they already finished.
Poof gone.
All I asked was for a refund for the 2000 mana so I could return to the instance to do it again. Even that is impossible now.
Bad instance design. Not caring about the beta reports of how disconnects affect the final loot prize phase. And the CM closed the ticket and acted that it was simple to get the mana again, before I can respond to say otherwise (with the screenshot above).
I'm a stroke survivor, and anything now in WoW is a challenge to MOVE even. That 2000 mana took me a long time to farm and losing it isn't about pride, it's about even playing the damn game.
When something is broke; or not designed well; and avenues to communicate this is ignored or denied ... yeah, Blizzard has attitude and design problems from it's dev core (obviously as they hired Furor and his guild buddies who have horrible people skills).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Also while many EVE players have played WOW (including me) my experience has been few actively play both at same time. (or much WOW these days)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It does not matter at what point you are in the grind, the complaint is entirely legitimate. They took all the fun out of the game entirely and if they cannot see that then I feel sorry for them.
Sorry, but I have to completely disagree with your post. Legion is completely about the AP grind. There is basically very little else. The last expansion had oodles more interesting things to do than this one. The just took all the fun out of the game with this expansion. It is not just me either, people I have played this game with for years all agree. This is by far the worst expansion because of lack of any sort of fun.
I've never been a fan of achievements .The game changed a lot when Blizzard went all in on them. Instead of making more things to do achievements just ended being different ways to do the same old stuff.
Kaplan's response was priceless and proves he doesn't have a clue to what he is talking about,good thing he is charge.
He says "get geared" and learn to play.
First of all GEAR has NOTHING to do with learning how to play a game and secondly SKILL should NOT be related to gear but something entirely different.
I have said many times,i despise Wow's generalized design towards gear and gear grinding.What is there to learn,how to grind?I am pretty sure 99.9% of the gaming populace knows exactly what grinding is,so yeah i think Kaplan should keep his yap closed because he doesn't understand anything,too busy counting all his money i guess.
Even a game i am playing right now "Project Gorgon" suffers from the same handcuffed problem...gear based.I don't like feeling i as a player am not very important to the outcomes and that the virtual items are a much bigger factor.
Speaking on the same topic,it is also why i quit FFXIV,gear grinds are a very lame way to design a game,it is also a LAZY way to design a game.
Also on the same topic,the player who said he had nothing to do perhaps wants REAL content and NOT instance gaming,perhaps he wants to feel like he is in a RPG and a MMO,but all Blizzard execs look at is the check list,they should try designing a proper mmorpg instead of a pile of lazy instances, then they can chime in about players complaining.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.