The zone system does very little to solve the issue, though.
You create "contested zones" and put PVE resource in it, then you're basically gating PVE content behind forced PvP participation.
You create parallel zones, PvP and PvE, with the same resources, and it will be abused just like flagging. You wanna PvP? Go to the PvP zone. Wanna take a break to grind? Go to the PvE equivalent.
You want PvE... play a PvE game. You want PvP.. Play a PvP game. Not all games should be all things to all people.
You're right. so get your PvP out of my PvE games. You want PvP go play an MOBA, and leave the MMO's alone with your hooky PvP nonsense, so we can grind in peace.
Then just skip games with PvP. Vote with your pocketbook. Don't join a game that is advertised as PvP and complain that it has PvP... Especially don't blame PvPers... that's just dumb.
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The problem I see is that everyone has their own skewed idea of what will work, each idea catering to their preference. It's not a solution that one size fits all and I so wish developers realise this too that they cannot expect to satisfy players with what they have unless they make concessions or are willing to accept that they will lose a certain portion of the player base in every case. When they stop trying to be everything to everyone we as players will be served with which games to avoid and which to play.
Oft times players who are not happy to be PvPed when they don't want to be but are persuaded by the promises the developers make while marketing their game which bless their little $ hearts they had no intention of keeping but merely hoping more people will check out their game will be then told to leave the game which they had invested in , in good faith if they cannot handle it. Similarly hardcore PvPers are disappointed and all in all the games ends up with less then optimal population for good conflict and will wither away slowly.
Personally I don't think you can mix oil and water well it only works to a limited extent and for players who are willing to accept a little PvP in their game and not with players who are absolutely against PvP in any shape or form. Thankfully even players like me who do not like to engage in PvP unless it is in certain zones or in battlegrounds will accept PvP if the rules punish PvPers who destroy the fundamental rules of fair play. I think I don't have to explain that.
I have simply avoided most PvP games unless I am assured after my research that the PvP will not impact me in an overly negative way in which case I will play the game. BDO fits that recipe for me.
I don't expect games to cater to me and I also do my research before buying and wasting my precious time on a game I will be forced to leave after awhile. Instead of looking for ways to homogenize gaming experiences lets celebrate the games that give players the extremes and allow all sorts of different game play so that we may be blessed with more games with varied tastes and experiences.
The zone system does very little to solve the issue, though.
You create "contested zones" and put PVE resource in it, then you're basically gating PVE content behind forced PvP participation.
You create parallel zones, PvP and PvE, with the same resources, and it will be abused just like flagging. You wanna PvP? Go to the PvP zone. Wanna take a break to grind? Go to the PvE equivalent.
You want PvE... play a PvE game. You want PvP.. Play a PvP game. Not all games should be all things to all people.
You're right. so get your PvP out of my PvE games. You want PvP go play an MOBA, and leave the MMO's alone with your hooky PvP nonsense, so we can grind in peace.
Then just skip games with PvP. Vote with your pocketbook. Don't join a game that is advertised as PvP and complain that it has PvP... Especially don't blame PvPers... that's just dumb.
Of course I blame PvP'ers, they come into PvE games and then cry like purulent children that there is no PvP. If they stuck to their PvP games, we would not have these problems today.. so yah.. I do blame them.. fully.
They co-exist, I think the players themselves need to know what they want to play, on PvEvP within open world you need to deal with the fact the PvP is merged within the PvE and take that as part of the gameplay rather than "OMG I DON'T PVP I HATE U ALL".
GW2 put resources in PvP and PvE zones, and they were the same resources, no one lost their mind over this.
Also note, gathering resources in PvE zones are not zero risk, there is always the chance of a mob attacking you. Equally so, PvP is only increased risk if you don't like PvP, if you like PvP then it's a welcome encounter, and a chance to get even more loot and exp.
Unless the game has any form of loot drop whatsoever. Then gathering in PvP areas is just increased risk.
Having resources in a PvP area and having resources that are actually a draw to go to a PvP area for things other than PvP are two separate issues. Yeah I might gather resources I came across in the Ettenmoors in LotRO but I was there for a fight.
Unlike in EVE where I was in null sec specifically for better ratting, plexes, and mining.
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Has anything new been brought to this discussion that hasn't been mentioned in many posts on the subject over the years?
No, not really.
As for me, I actually liked the pvp flag system. It wasn't perfect and had drawbacks for both the hardcore pvp and pve crowds but, as a pve player who enjoys a little pvp on occasion but doesn't want to be annoyed by random pvp encounters while doing pve things, It was a good compromise.
In the end, as with every time this topic comes up, it all comes down to personal preferences.
Game makers shouldn't be afraid to pick one thing and do it well. There are far too many games that try to do everything and appeal to everyone and end up getting nothing right by doing so.
Of course I blame PvP'ers, they come into PvE games and then cry like purulent children that there is no PvP. If they stuck to their PvP games, we would not have these problems today.. so yah.. I do blame them.. fully.
Sort of like you whine about about game that contains PvP areas to anyone willing to listen? The word you are searching for is petulant by the way. Purulent means they are oozing puss.
Choice in an MMORPG is a good thing, the more choice a player has, the better.
Having a flagging system give's player's choice, more choice than having PVP zone's or area's, and safe zone's or area's.
A lot of PVPers do not want all player's to have choice when it come's to PVP, they want PVP on their term's, nobody else's, which is part of the reason they claim flagging system's do not work.
They do work, just not in a way that they like.
Making a game that force's everyone into PVP, you turn a lot of player's away, that might have actually liked the game, and the PVP part of it, if they got to choose if, and when, to take part in it.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Of course I blame PvP'ers, they come into PvE games and then cry like purulent children that there is no PvP. If they stuck to their PvP games, we would not have these problems today.. so yah.. I do blame them.. fully.
Sort of like you whine about about game that contains PvP areas to anyone willing to listen? The word you are searching for is petulant by the way. Purulent means they are oozing puss.
Thanks.. but to be fair... both words work... LOL.
Anyway, I don't have a problem with PvP, I just want it to be on my terms.
Also, if you have put in mechanics to entice PvE players into PvP zones by offering them better PvE rewards for doing so, you're doing PvP wrong.
PvP zones should be there for people that are looking to PvP and enjoy PvP , not areas were you need harvest crystallize cloud ass or something.
If the PvP areas are not designed to entice PvP players.. and ONLY PvP players, then then the are designed wrong.
Of course I blame PvP'ers, they come into PvE games and then cry like purulent children that there is no PvP. If they stuck to their PvP games, we would not have these problems today.. so yah.. I do blame them.. fully.
Sort of like you whine about about game that contains PvP areas to anyone willing to listen? The word you are searching for is petulant by the way. Purulent means they are oozing puss.
Thanks.. but to be fair... both words work... LOL.
Anyway, I don't have a problem with PvP, I just want it to be on my terms.
Also, if you have put in mechanics to entice PvE players into PvP zones by offering them better PvE rewards for doing so, you're doing PvP wrong.
PvP zones should be there for people that are looking to PvP and enjoy PvP , not areas were you need harvest crystallize cloud ass or something.
If the PvP areas are not designed to entice PvP players.. and ONLY PvP players, then then the are designed wrong.
Definitely agree, gets a bit wearisome when developers spend so much time trying to entice the "prey", I mean PVE players into the PVP zone by holding the best resources or what not hostage.
Put something out there PVPers want to fight for, better mining or crafting isn't really on the list I'm thinking.
Either that or quit making me gather resources using gear or bonuses that give almost all of the advantage to the attackers, leaving most of the risk on my end.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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This thread just proves something most PvE players have been saying all along. A flag PvP system allows those interested in PvPing to PvP to their hearts content. So why is it all the hardcore PvP players are the ones complaining about this design? It's simple, if all the PvP players flag up to PvP and none of the PvE players flag up, that means it would just be PvP player versus other PvP players. I've said it many many MANY times before. PvP players hate fighting other PvP players. That is the only reason they hate these types of PvP game designs. They want easy fights. They want to gank PvE players when they are busy questing or harvesting resources. They don't care about fair fights or fighting players that are challenging. If they did, this design wouldn't bother them one bit.
No I'm saying that flag system are an inherently dumb mechanic. Make a safe zone or whatever but to have people skipping along with invulnerability through a battle is just silly.
Flagging is the dumbest mechanic ever invented for an MMO... and there have been quite a few doozies.
I was going to stay out of this version of this debate...the never ending...PvE vs PvP debate...discussion...war whatever it is at this point.
I usually find myself in agreement with you, however, this time I can't.
I feel the flagging system (I am referencing SWG here) was the best at combining PvP with PvE. I admit, not perfect but as good a system as you will find barring a complete separation of PvE and PvP.
I disagree with punishing people for doing PvP, I hate gankers, but I get that USUALLY they are just playing within the rule set of the game and having fun in their way.
I also hate to listen to PvE players whine non-stop about being ganked while mounting their horse, milking their cow, or and this one I empathize with, just trying to kill a world boss in peace. But in all seriousness, it can be annoying when you really just want to relax and beat on rocks.
So this is why I think the flag system is a great mechanic. In SWG it allowed me to do all the stuff I found fun, like exploring, crafting, gathering, etc. But when I felt like it (and I did, often) I would flag for PvP and go at it. At times I spent months flagged, other times I went safe just to get some things done I wanted to do.
The point is; the flag system allows for more options. Why would we restrict that? You can keep a healthy community, and get what you want and others get what they want. Pertaining to SWG I had guildies that hated PvP but loved supporting the PvPers with equipment, weapons, food, buffs, etc. It worked out well for all involved.
In conclusion, I am sorry Slap but I just can't get on board with this one and that is fine if we all agreed this would be a boring board to read.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Of course I blame PvP'ers, they come into PvE games and then cry like purulent children that there is no PvP. If they stuck to their PvP games, we would not have these problems today.. so yah.. I do blame them.. fully.
Sort of like you whine about about game that contains PvP areas to anyone willing to listen? The word you are searching for is petulant by the way. Purulent means they are oozing puss.
Thanks.. but to be fair... both words work... LOL.
Anyway, I don't have a problem with PvP, I just want it to be on my terms.
Also, if you have put in mechanics to entice PvE players into PvP zones by offering them better PvE rewards for doing so, you're doing PvP wrong.
PvP zones should be there for people that are looking to PvP and enjoy PvP , not areas were you need harvest crystallize cloud ass or something.
If the PvP areas are not designed to entice PvP players.. and ONLY PvP players, then then the are designed wrong.
Definitely agree, gets a bit wearisome when developers spend so much time trying to entice the "prey", I mean PVE players into the PVP zone by holding the best resources or what not hostage.
Put something out there PVPers want to fight for, better mining or crafting isn't really on the list I'm thinking.
Either that or quit making me gather resources using gear or bonuses that give almost all of the advantage to the attackers, leaving most of the risk on my end.
That's my point.
If someone goes into a PvP zone, they should want to go there, first and foremost, to PvP, if PvE players feel forced into PvP zones to get bullshit stuff for their PvE endeavors that builds resentment and embitterment towards PvP and the people that play it.
Its one thing, if they put some item into the game like "The Magical Rubber Chicken of the Al around Player" that required a player partake in all ventures the game offered, including PvE and PvP.
It's fine if there are items that excursive to the PvP areas as long as PvE centric players don't need them. Like GW2, had badges of honor, they were for the mos part, the currency of PvP. PvE players had no use for them.
Not to mention, there were exclusive WvW rewards, that helped out in WvW and pretty much only WvW. There were sPvP rewards, and PvE rewards.
Thus you could do what you wanted to do.. because you WANTED to do that.. not because you had to venture into a game mode you may hate, to progress a game mode you enjoyed.
Just like Dungeons were their own little thing, and had very little on effect on say.. World Exploration, or Word Bosses, or PvP.
each thing.. was it's own thing..
And that's good design... then they screwed it all up with HoT... but that's its own story.
The zone system does very little to solve the issue, though.
You create "contested zones" and put PVE resource in it, then you're basically gating PVE content behind forced PvP participation.
You create parallel zones, PvP and PvE, with the same resources, and it will be abused just like flagging. You wanna PvP? Go to the PvP zone. Wanna take a break to grind? Go to the PvE equivalent.
You want PvE... play a PvE game. You want PvP.. Play a PvP game. Not all games should be all things to all people.
You're right. so get your PvP out of my PvE games. You want PvP go play an MOBA, and leave the MMO's alone with your hooky PvP nonsense, so we can grind in peace.
Then just skip games with PvP. Vote with your pocketbook. Don't join a game that is advertised as PvP and complain that it has PvP... Especially don't blame PvPers... that's just dumb.
Of course I blame PvP'ers, they come into PvE games and then cry like purulent children that there is no PvP. If they stuck to their PvP games, we would not have these problems today.. so yah.. I do blame them.. fully.
What PvE game did significant number of PvP players come into and cry? If they did that then they are silly but unless the game creator then turned your PvE only game into a PvP one (example?) I can;t see what difference it made.
That's as stupid as going into a game that has PvP and complaining about it... hmmm.. never seen that happen
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"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Choice in an MMORPG is a good thing, the more choice a player has, the better.
Having a flagging system give's player's choice, more choice than having PVP zone's or area's, and safe zone's or area's.
A lot of PVPers do not want all player's to have choice when it come's to PVP, they want PVP on their term's, nobody else's, which is part of the reason they claim flagging system's do not work.
They do work, just not in a way that they like.
Making a game that force's everyone into PVP, you turn a lot of player's away, that might have actually liked the game, and the PVP part of it, if they got to choose if, and when, to take part in it.
No... choice means.. lets choose to play a PvE game if we don't like PvP!
Should we go into a PvE game and demand that the developers spend time and resources implementing a flagging system along with rewards and content related to PvP? No, that's just dumb.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
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This thread just proves something most PvE players have been saying all along. A flag PvP system allows those interested in PvPing to PvP to their hearts content. So why is it all the hardcore PvP players are the ones complaining about this design? It's simple, if all the PvP players flag up to PvP and none of the PvE players flag up, that means it would just be PvP player versus other PvP players. I've said it many many MANY times before. PvP players hate fighting other PvP players. That is the only reason they hate these types of PvP game designs. They want easy fights. They want to gank PvE players when they are busy questing or harvesting resources. They don't care about fair fights or fighting players that are challenging. If they did, this design wouldn't bother them one bit.
No I'm saying that flag system are an inherently dumb mechanic. Make a safe zone or whatever but to have people skipping along with invulnerability through a battle is just silly.
Flagging is the dumbest mechanic ever invented for an MMO... and there have been quite a few doozies.
I was going to stay out of this version of this debate...the never ending...PvE vs PvP debate...discussion...war whatever it is at this point.
I usually find myself in agreement with you, however, this time I can't.
I feel the flagging system (I am referencing SWG here) was the best at combining PvP with PvE. I admit, not perfect but as good a system as you will find barring a complete separation of PvE and PvP.
I disagree with punishing people for doing PvP, I hate gankers, but I get that USUALLY they are just playing within the rule set of the game and having fun in their way.
I also hate to listen to PvE players whine non-stop about being ganked while mounting their horse, milking their cow, or and this one I empathize with, just trying to kill a world boss in peace. But in all seriousness, it can be annoying when you really just want to relax and beat on rocks.
So this is why I think the flag system is a great mechanic. In SWG it allowed me to do all the stuff I found fun, like exploring, crafting, gathering, etc. But when I felt like it (and I did, often) I would flag for PvP and go at it. At times I spent months flagged, other times I went safe just to get some things done I wanted to do.
The point is; the flag system allows for more options. Why would we restrict that? You can keep a healthy community, and get what you want and others get what they want. Pertaining to SWG I had guildies that hated PvP but loved supporting the PvPers with equipment, weapons, food, buffs, etc. It worked out well for all involved.
In conclusion, I am sorry Slap but I just can't get on board with this one and that is fine if we all agreed this would be a boring board to read.
To each their own
I absolutely HATED the flagging system in SWG. It was utterly ruined for me by having Rebels fighting me and then literally a few minutes later, they come back to the same spot and start dancing around because now they were "Covert" and I guess I had no idea they were Rebels...
If you are going to have PvP it should have a purpose.. a point.. it shouldn't be a tacked on mechanic. It its an integral part of your game you shouldn't switch it on or off at will. Otherwise IMHO the game should just focus on PvE and not muddy things up with half-hearted PvP.
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If there were mmorpgs that were PvE only or PvP only do you believe that the population in-game would be significantly smaller when compared to an mmorpg that has both?
If there were mmorpgs that were PvE only or PvP only do you believe that the population in-game would be significantly smaller when compared to an mmorpg that has both?
Well.. not sure that's phrased correctly. There are very few PvP only games... actually now that I think about it I can't name one. We just don't have the technology nor the player pool to create a workable version of a PvP only game. Only one that comes to mind is Camelot Unchained which is also going to have PvE elements, just not for advancement. Even games like Darkfall and EvE have PvE...
I don't think that a PvE only game would have a significantly smaller population. I think they key is that it would have to be a good game... PvE or PvP...
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@Slapshot1188 The flagging mechanic should have an extended cool down period to prevent just that.
A poor flagging system allows players to change their flag all willy nilly. A good one will implement a cool down that will offer the player the opprtunity to remove him or herself from PvP completely at the cost of being unable to jump back in immediately. That cool down would work in 2 dimensions; flagging/unflagging triggers a cooldown, as does participating in any PvP.
@Slapshot1188 The flagging mechanic should have an extended cool down period to prevent just that.
A poor flagging system allows players to change their flag all willy nilly. A good one will implement a cool down that will offer the player the opprtunity to remove him or herself from PvP completely at the cost of being unable to jump back in immediately. That cool down would work in 2 dimensions; flagging/unflagging triggers a cooldown, as does participating in any PvP.
I'd counter again that a good PvP should be integral to the game... not tacked on. And something integral to the game should not be flipped on or off. I'd rather the game just focus on PvE and do it well.
And a cool down does little to change my example. Ok.. now it's an hour later or a day... or whatever...and the rebel is dancing around taunting because he is "covert". Just silly IMHO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Right, but only if he does not participate in any PVP whatsoever for the duration. So he jumps you and gets a kill.. To remain in the area, he must risk your retaliation. Otherwise, he has to travel elsewhere and continue to participate in only PvE activities for 1/2/whatever hours to unflag.
In that amount of time, you've been PvEing happily without his interfering with you again. Or, to look another way, you have a 1/2/whatever hours period to locate the killer and attempt to exact any revenge, knowing this will cause you to flag for PvP and remain so for 1/2/whatever hours.
If you're talking immersion, then I would counter that in such a game that would include the flagging system, the health of the system itself takes precedence over immersion.
And I can get on board with your idea of playing separate games for PvP and PvE... But I just thought we were discussing this within the context of "IF we're going to, how would we?"
Oh for gods sakes, not again. No, it doesn't work.
Yeah i get so sick and tired of people here trying to sell this we can all get along crap. The masses that play mmo's for PVE don't want to get ganked by some pvp player. And games have proved this over and over. Put a PVP server ina game and its empty. PVP player's are aways saying everyone wants both in mmo's which is a lie.
They co-exist, I think the players themselves need to know what they want to play, on PvEvP within open world you need to deal with the fact the PvP is merged within the PvE and take that as part of the gameplay rather than "OMG I DON'T PVP I HATE U ALL".
WoW wasn't even designed for PvP. It's PvP patch came later.
That's why, like that 16 slot bag that the devs won't touch as it'll mess up the engine/quests, PvP in WoW is so messed up. It wasn't designed for the game from the ground up. There's no separate values for PvP from PvE in WoW. Want a Frost Mage to do better damage in a PvE raid? Borked PvP and now it's a FoTM class that will get nerfed (and did).
WoW was designed for a different era of games and Blizzard didn't want to make a WoW2, thus, we're stuck with a spaghetti code game engine that plays just like it, too.
The zone system does very little to solve the issue, though.
You create "contested zones" and put PVE resource in it, then you're basically gating PVE content behind forced PvP participation.
You create parallel zones, PvP and PvE, with the same resources, and it will be abused just like flagging. You wanna PvP? Go to the PvP zone. Wanna take a break to grind? Go to the PvE equivalent.
You want PvE... play a PvE game. You want PvP.. Play a PvP game. Not all games should be all things to all people.
You're right. so get your PvP out of my PvE games. You want PvP go play an MOBA, and leave the MMO's alone with your hooky PvP nonsense, so we can grind in peace.
Then just skip games with PvP. Vote with your pocketbook. Don't join a game that is advertised as PvP and complain that it has PvP... Especially don't blame PvPers... that's just dumb.
Of course I blame PvP'ers, they come into PvE games and then cry like purulent children that there is no PvP. If they stuck to their PvP games, we would not have these problems today.. so yah.. I do blame them.. fully.
What PvE game did significant number of PvP players come into and cry? If they did that then they are silly but unless the game creator then turned your PvE only game into a PvP one (example?) I can;t see what difference it made.
That's as stupid as going into a game that has PvP and complaining about it... hmmm.. never seen that happen
Every single one of them. From WoW to LOTRO to GW2. There isn't an MMO made that PvPers don't whine in. The latest PvP axe is how their poor suffering butts are forced to do PvE in order to do PvP in a game primarily PvE. Quel nightmare.
And purulent works just fine when you consider the pus-ridden brains that some PvPers default to when attacking PvEers for not wanting to be prey so they can get their jollies.
A lot of the tension between PvPers and PvEers is the fault of developers. They envision an ideal PvP world only to find out that few PvPers want to play in world devoid of PvE. So they create PvE activities and for some idiotic reason are surprised when PvE players become interested in the game. They then attempt to evolve some sort of safe system (flagging, zones, whatever) to encourage PvE players, only to piss off PvP players who want OW full loot PvP and feel like the PvE players are to blame when the developers turn their red meat haven into a carebear world, when the PvEers are simply responding to the world developers have built.
Games that are clear about their intentions should stick with them. Games that are primarily PvP in focus should remain so and make it clear that PvE is a secondary feature and systems in those games should support PvP. PvEers who play in these games are their own worst enemy. You're in a PvP game, deal with it.
On the other hand, games that are primarily PvE should remain so and stop the incessant nerfing of class skills in a vain attempt to balance PvP in a PvE world. PvPers playing in a PvE game need to suck it up and stop complaining about the lack of PvP in the game. LOTRO is the perfect example of this. PvP is specifically prohibited in LOTRO by its license. Nonetheless, PvPers constantly complain about there being no OW PvP in LOTRO, apparently unaware of the game's history and purposeful design, demanding changes to classes to make them more fair in Monster Play, etc., etc.
Of course I blame PvP'ers, they come into PvE games and then cry like purulent children that there is no PvP. If they stuck to their PvP games, we would not have these problems today.. so yah.. I do blame them.. fully.
Sort of like you whine about about game that contains PvP areas to anyone willing to listen? The word you are searching for is petulant by the way. Purulent means they are oozing puss.
Thanks.. but to be fair... both words work... LOL.
Anyway, I don't have a problem with PvP, I just want it to be on my terms.
Also, if you have put in mechanics to entice PvE players into PvP zones by offering them better PvE rewards for doing so, you're doing PvP wrong.
PvP zones should be there for people that are looking to PvP and enjoy PvP , not areas were you need harvest crystallize cloud ass or something.
If the PvP areas are not designed to entice PvP players.. and ONLY PvP players, then then the are designed wrong.
Well, I rather enjoy getting big payouts for running goods through dangerous areas or harvesting rare resources from them.
So I think you are the one who is wrong.
Those zones may not appeal to you but not every game is made for you.
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Especially don't blame PvPers... that's just dumb.
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Oft times players who are not happy to be PvPed when they don't want to be but are persuaded by the promises the developers make while marketing their game which bless their little $ hearts they had no intention of keeping but merely hoping more people will check out their game will be then told to leave the game which they had invested in , in good faith if they cannot handle it. Similarly hardcore PvPers are disappointed and all in all the games ends up with less then optimal population for good conflict and will wither away slowly.
Personally I don't think you can mix oil and water well it only works to a limited extent and for players who are willing to accept a little PvP in their game and not with players who are absolutely against PvP in any shape or form. Thankfully even players like me who do not like to engage in PvP unless it is in certain zones or in battlegrounds will accept PvP if the rules punish PvPers who destroy the fundamental rules of fair play. I think I don't have to explain that.
I have simply avoided most PvP games unless I am assured after my research that the PvP will not impact me in an overly negative way in which case I will play the game. BDO fits that recipe for me.
I don't expect games to cater to me and I also do my research before buying and wasting my precious time on a game I will be forced to leave after awhile. Instead of looking for ways to homogenize gaming experiences lets celebrate the games that give players the extremes and allow all sorts of different game play so that we may be blessed with more games with varied tastes and experiences.
vive la différence
Having resources in a PvP area and having resources that are actually a draw to go to a PvP area for things other than PvP are two separate issues. Yeah I might gather resources I came across in the Ettenmoors in LotRO but I was there for a fight.
Unlike in EVE where I was in null sec specifically for better ratting, plexes, and mining.
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As for me, I actually liked the pvp flag system. It wasn't perfect and had drawbacks for both the hardcore pvp and pve crowds but, as a pve player who enjoys a little pvp on occasion but doesn't want to be annoyed by random pvp encounters while doing pve things, It was a good compromise.
In the end, as with every time this topic comes up, it all comes down to personal preferences.
Game makers shouldn't be afraid to pick one thing and do it well. There are far too many games that try to do everything and appeal to everyone and end up getting nothing right by doing so.
Having a flagging system give's player's choice, more choice than having PVP zone's or area's, and safe zone's or area's.
A lot of PVPers do not want all player's to have choice when it come's to PVP, they want PVP on their term's, nobody else's, which is part of the reason they claim flagging system's do not work.
They do work, just not in a way that they like.
Making a game that force's everyone into PVP, you turn a lot of player's away, that might have actually liked the game, and the PVP part of it, if they got to choose if, and when, to take part in it.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Anyway, I don't have a problem with PvP, I just want it to be on my terms.
Also, if you have put in mechanics to entice PvE players into PvP zones by offering them better PvE rewards for doing so, you're doing PvP wrong.
PvP zones should be there for people that are looking to PvP and enjoy PvP , not areas were you need harvest crystallize cloud ass or something.
If the PvP areas are not designed to entice PvP players.. and ONLY PvP players, then then the are designed wrong.
Put something out there PVPers want to fight for, better mining or crafting isn't really on the list I'm thinking.
Either that or quit making me gather resources using gear or bonuses that give almost all of the advantage to the attackers, leaving most of the risk on my end.
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I usually find myself in agreement with you, however, this time I can't.
I feel the flagging system (I am referencing SWG here) was the best at combining PvP with PvE. I admit, not perfect but as good a system as you will find barring a complete separation of PvE and PvP.
I disagree with punishing people for doing PvP, I hate gankers, but I get that USUALLY they are just playing within the rule set of the game and having fun in their way.
I also hate to listen to PvE players whine non-stop about being ganked while mounting their horse, milking their cow, or and this one I empathize with, just trying to kill a world boss in peace. But in all seriousness, it can be annoying when you really just want to relax and beat on rocks.
So this is why I think the flag system is a great mechanic. In SWG it allowed me to do all the stuff I found fun, like exploring, crafting, gathering, etc. But when I felt like it (and I did, often) I would flag for PvP and go at it. At times I spent months flagged, other times I went safe just to get some things done I wanted to do.
The point is; the flag system allows for more options. Why would we restrict that? You can keep a healthy community, and get what you want and others get what they want. Pertaining to SWG I had guildies that hated PvP but loved supporting the PvPers with equipment, weapons, food, buffs, etc. It worked out well for all involved.
In conclusion, I am sorry Slap but I just can't get on board with this one and that is fine if we all agreed this would be a boring board to read.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
If someone goes into a PvP zone, they should want to go there, first and foremost, to PvP, if PvE players feel forced into PvP zones to get bullshit stuff for their PvE endeavors that builds resentment and embitterment towards PvP and the people that play it.
Its one thing, if they put some item into the game like "The Magical Rubber Chicken of the Al around Player" that required a player partake in all ventures the game offered, including PvE and PvP.
It's fine if there are items that excursive to the PvP areas as long as PvE centric players don't need them. Like GW2, had badges of honor, they were for the mos part, the currency of PvP. PvE players had no use for them.
Not to mention, there were exclusive WvW rewards, that helped out in WvW and pretty much only WvW. There were sPvP rewards, and PvE rewards.
Thus you could do what you wanted to do.. because you WANTED to do that.. not because you had to venture into a game mode you may hate, to progress a game mode you enjoyed.
Just like Dungeons were their own little thing, and had very little on effect on say.. World Exploration, or Word Bosses, or PvP.
each thing.. was it's own thing..
And that's good design... then they screwed it all up with HoT... but that's its own story.
That's as stupid as going into a game that has PvP and complaining about it... hmmm.. never seen that happen
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Should we go into a PvE game and demand that the developers spend time and resources implementing a flagging system along with rewards and content related to PvP? No, that's just dumb.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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I absolutely HATED the flagging system in SWG. It was utterly ruined for me by having Rebels fighting me and then literally a few minutes later, they come back to the same spot and start dancing around because now they were "Covert" and I guess I had no idea they were Rebels...
If you are going to have PvP it should have a purpose.. a point.. it shouldn't be a tacked on mechanic. It its an integral part of your game you shouldn't switch it on or off at will. Otherwise IMHO the game should just focus on PvE and not muddy things up with half-hearted PvP.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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I don't think that a PvE only game would have a significantly smaller population. I think they key is that it would have to be a good game... PvE or PvP...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
A poor flagging system allows players to change their flag all willy nilly. A good one will implement a cool down that will offer the player the opprtunity to remove him or herself from PvP completely at the cost of being unable to jump back in immediately. That cool down would work in 2 dimensions; flagging/unflagging triggers a cooldown, as does participating in any PvP.
And a cool down does little to change my example. Ok.. now it's an hour later or a day... or whatever...and the rebel is dancing around taunting because he is "covert". Just silly IMHO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
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In that amount of time, you've been PvEing happily without his interfering with you again. Or, to look another way, you have a 1/2/whatever hours period to locate the killer and attempt to exact any revenge, knowing this will cause you to flag for PvP and remain so for 1/2/whatever hours.
If you're talking immersion, then I would counter that in such a game that would include the flagging system, the health of the system itself takes precedence over immersion.
And I can get on board with your idea of playing separate games for PvP and PvE... But I just thought we were discussing this within the context of "IF we're going to, how would we?"
That's why, like that 16 slot bag that the devs won't touch as it'll mess up the engine/quests, PvP in WoW is so messed up. It wasn't designed for the game from the ground up. There's no separate values for PvP from PvE in WoW. Want a Frost Mage to do better damage in a PvE raid? Borked PvP and now it's a FoTM class that will get nerfed (and did).
WoW was designed for a different era of games and Blizzard didn't want to make a WoW2, thus, we're stuck with a spaghetti code game engine that plays just like it, too.
Cata should've been WoW2 with that new engine.
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And purulent works just fine when you consider the pus-ridden brains that some PvPers default to when attacking PvEers for not wanting to be prey so they can get their jollies.
A lot of the tension between PvPers and PvEers is the fault of developers. They envision an ideal PvP world only to find out that few PvPers want to play in world devoid of PvE. So they create PvE activities and for some idiotic reason are surprised when PvE players become interested in the game. They then attempt to evolve some sort of safe system (flagging, zones, whatever) to encourage PvE players, only to piss off PvP players who want OW full loot PvP and feel like the PvE players are to blame when the developers turn their red meat haven into a carebear world, when the PvEers are simply responding to the world developers have built.
Games that are clear about their intentions should stick with them. Games that are primarily PvP in focus should remain so and make it clear that PvE is a secondary feature and systems in those games should support PvP. PvEers who play in these games are their own worst enemy. You're in a PvP game, deal with it.
On the other hand, games that are primarily PvE should remain so and stop the incessant nerfing of class skills in a vain attempt to balance PvP in a PvE world. PvPers playing in a PvE game need to suck it up and stop complaining about the lack of PvP in the game. LOTRO is the perfect example of this. PvP is specifically prohibited in LOTRO by its license. Nonetheless, PvPers constantly complain about there being no OW PvP in LOTRO, apparently unaware of the game's history and purposeful design, demanding changes to classes to make them more fair in Monster Play, etc., etc.
So I think you are the one who is wrong.
Those zones may not appeal to you but not every game is made for you.