Are we being too nostalgic ?

docminus2 · June 2017

Many of us long time gamers often talk/want/expect/dream of new games being as the ones we used to play, especially, but not exclusively with regards to MMOs. It's either a mechanic, the lore/universe setting & the social aspect, or a combination of those things.
I had this thought for quite a while and it resurfaced after Sony announced that retro games on PS4 are hihgly requested but "no-one" actually plays them.

For myself, often though, it has become a bit of a "I like the idea of", but honestly don't want to play that "old" game anymore. Yes, Everest was awesome, SWG (pre- and, yes, even post-NGE), etc etc.
And games try to recreate that, but then they fall short on some aspects, sometimes the studio is too small, sometimes the "new" game aspects override too much the expected "old" aspects. This can lead to a small player base, not enough revenue, and eventually shut-down, if it even ever made it out of alpha-or beta.
If you look at what is still around and successful, well, in terms of staying afloat or even being in the plus, it's many of the games people like to complain about (or troll the ones who do like them), such as WoW, BDO, ESO - not to mention the mobile game industry of micro-transactions "everybody" hates (yet many still pay for).

I went back a few to "old" games I loved, such as Ultima Online, or Everquest, even SWG on emus and I just can't be bothered anymore. The outdated interfaces don't call nostalgia in me, only "gaaah". Or "grinding", or even waiting for a respawn for hours with a so called "social" aspect, that really is nothing more than an excuse for lacking content imho. It's perhaps fun a few times, but constantly? One recent example trying to make it better (can be discussed) is SOTA, but even that with it's large funding and still not released is having trouble surviving.
Pvp, perma-death, full-loot pvp, sandbox, not-sandbox.... Housing. Let's take housing. Many want that (me too), but once it's there, it's "meh, and now what?" unless you rpg with guildies there.

So what will happen with all the upcoming (MMO) games? They always sound cool when pitched at start and show off some video. And many go and support it on Kickstarter, but by the time it is release (if ever) it potentially isn't as expected.
I'd like to say it's our fault, then again, the developers are the ones who believe they know the market. And least imho they shouldn't enter it being naiv and saying "we are doing it because we can and for the greater good", it's not like it's a deadly disease being treated...

centkin · June 2017

My rose colored glasses seem to be working just fine. See below, rose colored.

NPCPak · June 2017

I do believe that a lot of older MMOs has multiple aspects that could be deemed outdated by today's standards, though I don't believe we should stray away from it all together. For marketing reasons, companies will look into "what made X game fun" so they can mimic that feature and add it to their game... one of the reasons they do this is because of "nostalgic" feelings for that feature... Like when you have an attachment for something and it shows in this "brand new" game you haven't explored, it makes you want to keep exploring it until you find even more of what you love.

It's almost like an easter egg hunt, but instead of finding secrets, you're finding feelings from memories you want to /re-experience/. It's another reason why TV shows, cartoons, video games, comic books and even movies all have /nostalgic/ features in it... It keeps you seated and wanting to /re-experience/ more, instead of just remembering those memories.

I believe that despite the fact players demand old titles but never play it is because we truly just want to experience what make it a special part of our lives, not the entire game around it. Why explore a world you've already explored before? I we already been everywhere we could of been. We want /what we love/ in a whole new world or new areas We want to see upcoming titlels evolve into something much greater than the previous game, while still having those /features/ we love... and that's why we chose to wear our rose-colored glasses.

Slapshot1188 · June 2017

I still blame WoW. MMORPGs were always a small nerdy niche market. Then WoW came along at the right time and became a cultural phenomenon which took MMOs out of the basement. The result has been games that were dramatically different than those that came before. Obviously more people like these new games, but that small nerdy niche is still out there... not entirely happy with what our hobby has become.

Albatroes · June 2017

I think this kind of hits the nail on the head for me. Without loss, one cannot know victory. In today's market there's no losers, just wait and see.

A lot of people aren't motivated to invest time into something they know will just be made easier in the future anyway or companies just disregarding their content just 2 patches later.

CrazKanuk · June 2017

I will agree. Most of my ventures into nostalgia have ended poorly. I still hate myself for trying FF1 again. Childhood officially ruined!!

Mendel · June 2017

Nostalgia is one thing. It can be good in small doses. But trying to rebuild an entire industry on past glories is terribly short-sighted as a business model. Yes, there are a large number of players that played EQ1, EQ2, FF1, AC, UO, DAoC, etc. in the past. Maybe even enough to form a market demand for which companies could supply products. It may be interesting, even fun for a while.

But those same customers quit EQ1, EQ2, FF1, AC, UO, DAoC, etc. in that same past. That segment of the market has proven itself to be fickle. The greatness of the MMORPG industry isn't buried in the past, but rather based on the promise of new ideas. Life exists in an change or die environment. It may be a stretch, but the entire entertainment industry (including games and MMORPGs) may be a part of that evolution / extinction cycle.

Pass out the hula-hoops, hoop skirts and saddle shoes, it's 1959 all over again.

ConstantineMerus · June 2017

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Octagon7711 · June 2017

Depending on the game it's fun to go back sometimes and enjoy new classes or expansions but playing the exact same content I once played for years is no longer fun. There's nothing like playing a new mmo that's really fun.

MrMelGibson · June 2017

CrazKanuk said:

I will agree. Most of my ventures into nostalgia have ended poorly. I still hate myself for trying FF1 again. Childhood officially ruined!!

FF1 isn't too bad if you get the remake on android or PSP. The original version is hard to play though.

CrazKanuk · June 2017

MrMelGibson said:

CrazKanuk said:

I will agree. Most of my ventures into nostalgia have ended poorly. I still hate myself for trying FF1 again. Childhood officially ruined!!

FF1 isn't too bad if you get the remake on android or PSP. The original version is hard to play though.

I bought it for $15 on Apple. Is it worth $15? Probably not. SE probably giggles every time they sell a copy for $15, lol.

Eldurian · June 2017

Nostalgia is definitely an issue in today's MMO and gaming market in general. People long for a return to the good old days but the good old games are mostly still out there if you'd like to play them.

New MMOs are by no means better in every regard. Most of them are so bad I'm not even willing to play them and the majority of the ones that are any good at all are smaller titles wrought with design issues driven by low budgets.

But I've always said creating a great MMO will require learning lessons from both old MMOs, new MMOs, implementing some of the best of each and then mixing it with some innovative concepts that have never been seen before.

If a game tries to take an old MMO model and update it to 2017 with nothing but minor changes like graphical updates it will fall flat on it's face.

SEANMCAD · June 2017

yes..

Not sure if its most gamers in general but its absolutely most forum game posters are obsessed with nostalgia to an unhealthy level.

and when it comes to deep game play there has very literally never been a better time to be into gaming then now.

kjempff · June 2017

ConstantineMerus said:

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Yeah exactly, the problem is that they aren't getting better - From the perspective of some players. It is not that games are not getting better, they just don't get better in the areas that matter to those players. Mmorpgs get better at monetization, animation, simplification, marketing tricks (boobs), instant gratification, efficiency, graphics, personal story telling (you are the hero), weeding out all the things that could cause any discomfort to the player and so on - And in this process, the things these players look for in a mmorpg get neglected or simply die.

Nostalgia is a very narrow minded word used to dismiss the fact that mmorpgs aren't targeting the players who want that kind of depth and longevity in a mmorpg. The players who look through rose tinted glasses are quite few although loud; but it is not about that at all - It is about mmorpgs not targeting this kind of player; it just happens that some past mmorpgs did this and therefore are those you can refer to. The old players know what they are missing, the new players who want the same can't exactly put it into words but you can read it between the lines.
Not everyone want this kind of mmorpg experience, but those who do are of all kinds, the kid who plays dota but want something more meaningful, the tabletop player, the casual player who wants to feel a part of the world. And in all these kinds are also old farts some with rose tinted views and some hoping for more progressive mmorpgs.

They (we) are tiered of fluff, and looking for that kind of game that offers feeling of accomplishment, deep quality mechanics, long lasting experience and all those things the superficial mmorpg does not offer. No amount of smooth animations and flashy effects can replace good game mechanics.. for us. On rails stories is not what we want from a mmorpg.

SEANMCAD · June 2017

kjempff said:

ConstantineMerus said:

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Yeah exactly, the problem is that they aren't getting better -...

MMOs might not be but regular games are absolutely getting better. 15 years ago the number of games that had anything similar to crafting was zero (maybe 1) the number of games that had building in it was zero (maybe 1).

ConstantineMerus · June 2017

kjempff said:

ConstantineMerus said:

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Yeah exactly, the problem is that they aren't getting better - From the perspective of some players. It is not that games are not getting better, they just don't get better in the areas that matter to those players. Mmorpgs get better at monetization, animation, simplification, marketing tricks (boobs), instant gratification, efficiency, graphics, personal story telling (you are the hero), weeding out all the things that could cause any discomfort to the player and so on - And in this process, the things these players look for in a mmorpg get neglected or simply die.

Nostalgia is a very narrow minded word used to dismiss the fact that mmorpgs aren't targeting the players who want that kind of depth and longevity in a mmorpg. The players who look through rose tinted glasses are quite few although loud; but it is not about that at all - It is about mmorpgs not targeting this kind of player; it just happens that some past mmorpgs did this and therefore are those you can refer to. The old players know what they are missing, the new players who want the same can't exactly put it into words but you can read it between the lines.
Not everyone want this kind of mmorpg experience, but those who do are of all kinds, the kid who plays dota but want something more meaningful, the tabletop player, the casual player who wants to feel a part of the world. And in all these kinds are also old farts some with rose tinted views and some hoping for more progressive mmorpgs.

They (we) are tiered of fluff, and looking for that kind of game that offers feeling of accomplishment, deep quality mechanics, long lasting experience and all those things the superficial mmorpg does not offer. No amount of smooth animations and flashy effects can replace good game mechanics.. for us. On rails stories is not what we want from a mmorpg.

Thanks for writing all this, I was on mobile and didn't have the energy to explain. Pretty much this.

ConstantineMerus · June 2017

SEANMCAD said:

kjempff said:

ConstantineMerus said:

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Yeah exactly, the problem is that they aren't getting better -...
MMOs might not be but regular games are absolutely getting better. 15 years ago the number of games that had anything similar to crafting was zero (maybe 1) the number of games that had building in it was zero (maybe 1).

I agree regular games are getting better. I have about 2500 hours in queue of already released games. There are some genres which have suffered as well. Like Adventures, I mean Point&Click with real puzzles. And please don't give me Telltale games, they are in no way in the same genre. Besides a low-budget indie or a remaster once in a while, we ain't getting any new Adventures. I miss them, they used to be a huge part of my gaming life. Almost got expelled from school over Day of the Tentacle.

SEANMCAD · June 2017

ConstantineMerus said:

SEANMCAD said:

kjempff said:

ConstantineMerus said:

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Yeah exactly, the problem is that they aren't getting better -...
MMOs might not be but regular games are absolutely getting better. 15 years ago the number of games that had anything similar to crafting was zero (maybe 1) the number of games that had building in it was zero (maybe 1).

I agree regular games are getting better. I have about 2500 hours in queue of already released games. There are some genres which have suffered as well. Like Adventures, I mean Point&Click with real puzzles. And please don't give me Telltale games, they are in no way in the same genre. Besides a low-budget indie or a remaster once in a while, we ain't getting any new Adventures. I miss them, they used to be a huge part of my gaming life. Almost got expelled from school over Day of the Tentacle.

you have a very serious case of nostalgia.

I am talking about game features that didnt exist back in the day, your talking about new retro games

ConstantineMerus · June 2017

SEANMCAD said:

ConstantineMerus said:

SEANMCAD said:

kjempff said:

ConstantineMerus said:

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Yeah exactly, the problem is that they aren't getting better -...
MMOs might not be but regular games are absolutely getting better. 15 years ago the number of games that had anything similar to crafting was zero (maybe 1) the number of games that had building in it was zero (maybe 1).

I agree regular games are getting better. I have about 2500 hours in queue of already released games. There are some genres which have suffered as well. Like Adventures, I mean Point&Click with real puzzles. And please don't give me Telltale games, they are in no way in the same genre. Besides a low-budget indie or a remaster once in a while, we ain't getting any new Adventures. I miss them, they used to be a huge part of my gaming life. Almost got expelled from school over Day of the Tentacle.

you have a very serious case of nostalgia.

I am talking about game features that didnt exist back in the day, your talking about new retro games

It's a genre gone with the wind. I don't want to play the same games I used to play. I want new, better ones, in the same genre. Interactive story, better puzzles, better graphics, with cash-shops and everything!;)

SEANMCAD · June 2017

ConstantineMerus said:

SEANMCAD said:

ConstantineMerus said:

SEANMCAD said:

kjempff said:

ConstantineMerus said:

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Yeah exactly, the problem is that they aren't getting better -...
MMOs might not be but regular games are absolutely getting better. 15 years ago the number of games that had anything similar to crafting was zero (maybe 1) the number of games that had building in it was zero (maybe 1).

I agree regular games are getting better. I have about 2500 hours in queue of already released games. There are some genres which have suffered as well. Like Adventures, I mean Point&Click with real puzzles. And please don't give me Telltale games, they are in no way in the same genre. Besides a low-budget indie or a remaster once in a while, we ain't getting any new Adventures. I miss them, they used to be a huge part of my gaming life. Almost got expelled from school over Day of the Tentacle.

you have a very serious case of nostalgia.

I am talking about game features that didnt exist back in the day, your talking about new retro games

It's a genre gone with the wind. I don't want to play the same games I used to play. I want new, better ones, in the same genre. Interactive story, better puzzles, better graphics, with cash-shops and everything!;)

again...

that is called nostalgia.

what I am describing you have not played before because its features that NEVER EXISTED in the past. So at least with what I am talking about 'used to play' doesnt exist.

to be clear I dont want to stomp on what you like, but I do want to make clear we are talking about to different things, many of which are polar opposites

Wizardry · June 2017

I am ONLY nostalgic to the point if i don't see any ideas that are better then i prefer old ideas but improved upon.Simply put,i am NOT in favor of copying or repeating the same old,there is a busload of room to improve on ALL ideas,we just need some smart system designers and smart developer studios.

IMO MOST like 99% of all these developers are ONLY in this to make money,they are not passionate game designers,they simply work within a budget and create whatever that budget allows.
The current trend of creating games with no known budget ...KS'rs and crowd funding is garbage and proves these devs are simply looking for an EASY free pass to making money.

I say screw these lame ass wannabe devs,i only applaud and support those with concrete ideas and a design totally FINISHED in it's thought process before asking for any money.I do NOT condone these devs trying to create a game with ideas over time based on weather money comes in or not.
You are either a developer or your not,pretending with gamer's free handouts is BS,get out of the business if your not a real developer.

Kyleran · June 2017

kjempff said:

ConstantineMerus said:

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Yeah exactly, the problem is that they aren't getting better - From the perspective of some players. It is not that games are not getting better, they just don't get better in the areas that matter to those players. Mmorpgs get better at monetization, animation, simplification, marketing tricks (boobs), instant gratification, efficiency, graphics, personal story telling (you are the hero), weeding out all the things that could cause any discomfort to the player and so on - And in this process, the things these players look for in a mmorpg get neglected or simply die.

Nostalgia is a very narrow minded word used to dismiss the fact that mmorpgs aren't targeting the players who want that kind of depth and longevity in a mmorpg. The players who look through rose tinted glasses are quite few although loud; but it is not about that at all - It is about mmorpgs not targeting this kind of player; it just happens that some past mmorpgs did this and therefore are those you can refer to. The old players know what they are missing, the new players who want the same can't exactly put it into words but you can read it between the lines.
Not everyone want this kind of mmorpg experience, but those who do are of all kinds, the kid who plays dota but want something more meaningful, the tabletop player, the casual player who wants to feel a part of the world. And in all these kinds are also old farts some with rose tinted views and some hoping for more progressive mmorpgs.

They (we) are tiered of fluff, and looking for that kind of game that offers feeling of accomplishment, deep quality mechanics, long lasting experience and all those things the superficial mmorpg does not offer. No amount of smooth animations and flashy effects can replace good game mechanics.. for us. On rails stories is not what we want from a mmorpg.

You totally nailed it. Early MMORPGs had issues to be sure, but I being a person who enjoyed them didn't want to see most of what made them good (or even great) tossed out with the bad.

CrazKanuk · June 2017

kjempff said:

ConstantineMerus said:

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Yeah exactly, the problem is that they aren't getting better - From the perspective of some players. It is not that games are not getting better, they just don't get better in the areas that matter to those players. Mmorpgs get better at monetization, animation, simplification, marketing tricks (boobs), instant gratification, efficiency, graphics, personal story telling (you are the hero), weeding out all the things that could cause any discomfort to the player and so on - And in this process, the things these players look for in a mmorpg get neglected or simply die.

Nostalgia is a very narrow minded word used to dismiss the fact that mmorpgs aren't targeting the players who want that kind of depth and longevity in a mmorpg. The players who look through rose tinted glasses are quite few although loud; but it is not about that at all - It is about mmorpgs not targeting this kind of player; it just happens that some past mmorpgs did this and therefore are those you can refer to. The old players know what they are missing, the new players who want the same can't exactly put it into words but you can read it between the lines.
Not everyone want this kind of mmorpg experience, but those who do are of all kinds, the kid who plays dota but want something more meaningful, the tabletop player, the casual player who wants to feel a part of the world. And in all these kinds are also old farts some with rose tinted views and some hoping for more progressive mmorpgs.

They (we) are tiered of fluff, and looking for that kind of game that offers feeling of accomplishment, deep quality mechanics, long lasting experience and all those things the superficial mmorpg does not offer. No amount of smooth animations and flashy effects can replace good game mechanics.. for us. On rails stories is not what we want from a mmorpg.

Paragraph one is possibly one of the biggest cop-outs ever. You can't dispute it, but can't support it. You make grand, sweeping generalizations about why MMOs today are popular.

The last paragraph tells the tale of a group of people who is of unknown size, but likely small, and who complain about EVERYTHING, just look at the text wall above. The problem is that for as much as these so-called "purists" LOVE!!!!! the old-school experience, they are consistently the first to complain about graphics, they are the first to complain about animations, they are the first to complain about how a single mechanic is game-breaking for them. Ultimately, these gamers are looking for an experience which is designed specifically for their taste, and don't ever change anything or I'll leave. The proof is in the pudding. There are plenty of old-school games that have/are available. If they were bursting at the seams with users, then there would be no need to develop something new. However, they see some of the lowest populations of any games available right now, so much so that DBG can't even be bothered to spend the money policing EQ1 emus, and instead just open it up and tell people to go wild.

SEANMCAD · June 2017

I think you all are full of it.

MMOs
Life is Feudal - features that never been able to exist before, deep game play, building, complex crafting.

Non-MMO (very short list)
7 Days to Die - speed crafting, huge open world, complex crafting, basebuilding where clever design actually helps, scary, thrilling, structural integrity

Space Engineers - build factories in first person, fly to other planets, HUGE planets to walk on with 100% of it destructible and buildable.

I mean seriously? the past was better? no it wasnt. its like everyone is living under a rock

waynejr2 · June 2017

Kyleran said:

kjempff said:

ConstantineMerus said:

I don't want the new games to be like the old ones I used to play. I want them to be better.

Yeah exactly, the problem is that they aren't getting better - From the perspective of some players. It is not that games are not getting better, they just don't get better in the areas that matter to those players. Mmorpgs get better at monetization, animation, simplification, marketing tricks (boobs), instant gratification, efficiency, graphics, personal story telling (you are the hero), weeding out all the things that could cause any discomfort to the player and so on - And in this process, the things these players look for in a mmorpg get neglected or simply die.

Nostalgia is a very narrow minded word used to dismiss the fact that mmorpgs aren't targeting the players who want that kind of depth and longevity in a mmorpg. The players who look through rose tinted glasses are quite few although loud; but it is not about that at all - It is about mmorpgs not targeting this kind of player; it just happens that some past mmorpgs did this and therefore are those you can refer to. The old players know what they are missing, the new players who want the same can't exactly put it into words but you can read it between the lines.
Not everyone want this kind of mmorpg experience, but those who do are of all kinds, the kid who plays dota but want something more meaningful, the tabletop player, the casual player who wants to feel a part of the world. And in all these kinds are also old farts some with rose tinted views and some hoping for more progressive mmorpgs.

They (we) are tiered of fluff, and looking for that kind of game that offers feeling of accomplishment, deep quality mechanics, long lasting experience and all those things the superficial mmorpg does not offer. No amount of smooth animations and flashy effects can replace good game mechanics.. for us. On rails stories is not what we want from a mmorpg.

You totally nailed it. Early MMORPGs had issues to be sure, but I being a person who enjoyed them didn't want to see most of what made them good (or even great) tossed out with the bad.

People toss out nostalgia to discount what someone liked about games in the past. It is BS. I loved city of heroes. I liked it then and I can recall the liking of it. Many amazing game mechanics. It is a personal fact. Even it someone wants to call it nostalgia, does make it invalid.

You are right about keeping the good game mechanics. But things get removed. The industry went mainstream and the mainstream wants easier/dumbed down. Want to design a game for the masses, make it more permissive. Vanilla wow had mounts at level40 so your game should have them at level 39 or at level 1. People want to spend hours raiding for RNG gear so dumb it down and give them badges, or always drop the item they want or better still, put it in the cash shop. After all, why shouldn't they have it all now?

Amathe · June 2017

I hate the word nostalgic. It makes it sound like someone wants the mmo equivalent of Leave it to Beaver. That's not what I want. I want a challenging, community driven game where the investment of my time has value and where rewards are not cheap and easy.

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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

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Are we being too nostalgic ?

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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV