Im still reading the posts here its just pointless to argue imo with a lot of these people.
I returned to wow 3 ish weeks ago and got back into pve. Cleared heroic ToS at 890 ilevel and being 9 months behind in gear and AP.
The facts remain the same. The gap between the bottom feeders and the good players who know everything thats going on is still there but its quite minimal. Speaking in terms of ToS only as its the only Legion raid ive done..
ToS is good content wise like most raids.. the bosses are mostly faceroll easy besides KJ ofc and maiden/avatar.. and even then if you have a decent group your only problem is gonna be KJ.
I remember in siege there were a lot of bosses that required near perfect dps checks heal checks retard checks.. thats hardly here anymore.
Like i said. Decent content.. pretty faceroll other than that.
How geared were the people that you were running ToS heroic with though?
I think WoW is a ton of fun. That is why I play games is for fun. WoW keeps getting more and more fun. And there is still very few if any MMOs that match the quality of WoW. Heck, even new MMOs your character slides across the ground instead of actually looking like it moves properly (LOTRO being a huge example of this, and its newer than WoW)
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Im still reading the posts here its just pointless to argue imo with a lot of these people.
I returned to wow 3 ish weeks ago and got back into pve. Cleared heroic ToS at 890 ilevel and being 9 months behind in gear and AP.
The facts remain the same. The gap between the bottom feeders and the good players who know everything thats going on is still there but its quite minimal. Speaking in terms of ToS only as its the only Legion raid ive done..
ToS is good content wise like most raids.. the bosses are mostly faceroll easy besides KJ ofc and maiden/avatar.. and even then if you have a decent group your only problem is gonna be KJ.
I remember in siege there were a lot of bosses that required near perfect dps checks heal checks retard checks.. thats hardly here anymore.
Like i said. Decent content.. pretty faceroll other than that.
When most people say skill gap in WoW they really mean the opposite. WoW has never been about skill. Its been about Gear Score. The guy with better gear wins.
I loved WoW until endgame. Where the only thing that matters is gear, and certainly not skill.
If that has changed, which I have a hard time believing because most people are terrible without their one hitting weapons, then I am all in. EQ was fun because that gear didn't exist in the early stages. Once any schmuck with enough time can get a weapon 20X as powerful as yours, its time for a new game.
Im still reading the posts here its just pointless to argue imo with a lot of these people.
I returned to wow 3 ish weeks ago and got back into pve. Cleared heroic ToS at 890 ilevel and being 9 months behind in gear and AP.
The facts remain the same. The gap between the bottom feeders and the good players who know everything thats going on is still there but its quite minimal. Speaking in terms of ToS only as its the only Legion raid ive done..
ToS is good content wise like most raids.. the bosses are mostly faceroll easy besides KJ ofc and maiden/avatar.. and even then if you have a decent group your only problem is gonna be KJ.
I remember in siege there were a lot of bosses that required near perfect dps checks heal checks retard checks.. thats hardly here anymore.
Like i said. Decent content.. pretty faceroll other than that.
yes, but, how well did you fair on the "make me a sandwich" encounter in "the kitchen" raid? cause I still aint got me no sandwich...
Chemicals in the air food and water are dumbing down the population so they have to make games easier to play.
50% of people are dumber than average. Scary, but true. I have a feeling those with your sentiments are the bottom 50%.
WoW is no where near as dumb as the games that have come out in the past 13 years. It's also not pre-ToA DAoC or pre-PoP EQ that actually required your wits, not your gear, which was the exact same as Joe_just_joined_the_game.
Want PvP? Play a real PvP game. Want PvE? Play WoW or Rift. What other choice is there in this terrible, shrinking genre? I still play EQ over any other game!! SAD.
And Paigeypoo complaining is kinda hilarious. I very much think she is the type who needs others to carry her through a dungeon/pvp match. Just a hunch.
Show me a game that doesn't reward "raiding" with overpowered gear I will show you a game where skill matters. Until then, peace out. Mobile games are superior.
I think WoW is a ton of fun. That is why I play games is for fun. WoW keeps getting more and more fun. And there is still very few if any MMOs that match the quality of WoW. Heck, even new MMOs your character slides across the ground instead of actually looking like it moves properly (LOTRO being a huge example of this, and its newer than WoW)
The other problem is...so many land based MMOs lack the most basic feature of WoW
Swimming underwater
So many MMOs fail to implement the most basic feature of WoW, the freedom to swim underwater. Flying is just a huge added bonus (though blizzard really don't want you to fly in newer expansions). Some MMOs you can swim underwater, like BDO lets you. That is pretty high quality right there and that is actually sad cause swimming underwater is such a basic thing to have.
But then...there is SWTOR, LOTRO and FFXIV...why do they limit movement so much? Not to mention Ryzom which doesn't even let you jump over basic obstacles.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
I know I'm late to the party, I read most comments and I'll just add my thoughts:
I think most people miss OP's point: She does not want to be superior no matter what, but bad decisions had consequences, not anymore. Popping CD's for no reason would fuck you up, not so much anymore.
I was in a hiatus from WoW and went back and just PvP'ed. I swear to Azathoth could face smash that keyboard and still kill dozens with my Rogue.
Then you would argue: I'm an experience and good player and you wouldnt...
Calm down, Jimmy.
Most players are not anymore. And I think that's the point OP is trying to make. It required commitment in depth, you had to pay attention, you had to git gud.
The way the system works after all these patches makes it feels like anyone has the chance to shine, even if they are slamming some buttons and that's it.
That's why I left WoW. I was displeased with all changes in certain classes that made them shallow in my eyes.
When I saw the "new talent system" I just barfed. I'm not saying it is bad, I say that is not for me, or people like me, and I understand OP's point in regard of her complains. And I second them.
While I wouldn't say it's objectively bad, I'd say it fits very well into the generation of gaming in which any form of legitimate challenges is replaced with "Wait X minutes to regenerate X energy" or there are literally some phone games that you occasionally click while your character auto runs to the next objective then auto-kills the enemies they need to kill then auto-runs back and turns in the quest, then auto-runs to the next quest giver.
Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but I feel exceptionally comfortable passing some certain judgments on the devoted audience that essentially are becoming spectators of a game where they character practically plays itself.
Came across this video from a friend and while I don't like fighter games, this is literally spot on the biggest reason why I stopped playing WoW for Legion & probably beyond.
A game I put thousands of hours into, being my most played game ever, and slowly within 2 expansions it is now a game I haven't a touched in nearly a year.
I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.
There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.
Thoughts?
Those days are gone.
My biggest problem with pvp though, is the removal of pvp vendors. Acquiring gear is now RNG, either through lockboxes or PVE activities (world quests).
Wasting CDs is another problem but it's even worse with macros now, especially the one-shot macros that heavy tank classes use.
In your case: The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap
This is a great topic for debate. I bet if you went and just wrote about that, we'd be having a much more greater discussion rather than personal attacks or calling stuff "shit". Of course later on you could talk about your experiences in certain game(s).
I agree, and I actually don't mind if people vent a bit either. In this case though the OP seems to be talking more about "The Consequences of Reducing the GEAR Gap": that's almost the exact opposite of reducing the skill cap, and is one of the main reasons she is getting flack.
I remember how unfair it used to be that the Alliance couldn't have Shaman and the Horde had no Paladins.
I actually like asymetrical factions better. I liked it in DAoC and, hopefully, will like it again in CU. It makes the other faction seem a bit more alien, more "them."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
This occurs in probably every game, every MMO. I don't think I've seen a single one that didn't dumb down to grow. You know? They get old and frantic. So what do they do? They appeal to a larger audience.
There're two ways to fight this. The first is play non-commercial MMO's. There's less incentive for them to s*** on their loyal players. They're genuinely niche. The next thing you can do is play (un)dead MMO's. They do the same thing as everyone else, but at deathly slow pace. It all boils down to money. Undead MMO's are on full life support. Once the money or the hope is strong again, their desire to grow will resurface.
It's all about how much they want to grow. Generally growing is about appealing to a larger audience. It's popularly believed this means evolving the game so it's better, but this is sugar coating the reality. Truth is, the largest audience is casual and 'better' mostly pertains to them. So if you're a niche gamer, 'better' might be the evolution of unpopular games. Some players are so strongly niche there's no 'better', instead only old games to play.
The other issue is "dumb down" can mean different things. It doesn't necessarily mean the game is dumber. It might be just different, so it no longer appeals to you. If you're niche, it can suck. I think the reason "dumb" is a popular term to describe this phenomena is because that's how it feels to the sufferer. Something is lost that felt challenging or engaging to you. But the sufferer can only see it from their perspective. From another's perspective, it might actually make the game more challenging or engaging for them, paradoxically. This is because we're not all the same. This is surprising? I don't know why it should be. We're surrounded with evidence of it, but rarely notice because we're so steeped in our own perspective, or that of our group.
This occurs in probably every game, every MMO. I don't think I've seen a single one that didn't dumb down to grow. You know? They get old and frantic. So what do they do? They appeal to a larger audience.
There're two ways to fight this. The first is play non-commercial MMO's. There's less incentive for them to s*** on their loyal players. They're genuinely niche. The next thing you can do is play (un)dead MMO's. They do the same thing as everyone else, but at deathly slow pace. It all boils down to money. Undead MMO's are on full life support. Once the money or the hope is strong again, their desire to grow will overpower their despair.
It's all about how much they want to grow. Generally growing is about appealing to a larger audience. It's popularly believed this means evolving the game so it's better, but this is sugar coating the reality. Truth is, the largest audience is casual and 'better' mostly pertains to them. So if you're a niche gamer, 'better' might be the evolution of unpopular games.
While it certainly is a possibility devs think like that what really made Wow such a popular game was there from the beginning. If you move too far from that concept you will loose players, not gain them even if it might take some time before you notice the effects.
I am not so sure the majority of PC gamers actually want things that simple, most still active Wow players did sign up way in the past when the game was more complicated. With the "people want a game as simple as possible" logic Wow would gain players the last few expansions, not loose them.
The thing with easy and simple is that it wont hold players attention as long as moderate complexity and difficulty. The games that actually releases that way tend to do rather badly, just like games releasing too hard and difficult.
The thing with MMOS though is that they tend to be addictive and once you are in many stay a long time. I am not saying that some players wont like Wow better now then 10 years ago but I am far from certain the game would have become as popular as it got if it released with current difficulty and mechanics at launch.
The whole thing is impossible to prove sadly but there certainly is a difficulty that will maximize the number of players. That either extremely easy or extremely hard would be the right choice for that seem far fetched to me. I think Wow did right from the start and that is what made it the largest MMORPG.
And you can certainly make harder commercial games, just look on Dark souls.
Loke, did you read my last paragraph? I was editing my post and added it for clarification. It's about what "dumbing down" means.
Please read that.
EDIT: Another thing I forgot to mention is all games get old and die. Some take longer, but they all lose that initial brilliance. The reason game makers "dumb down" with nearly every single one--by appealing to a larger audience--is to counteract this process of decay. This only slows their death. Eventually the process of decay overpowers the attempts to counteract, without a yuuuuge cash infusion. Since it's generally increasingly hard to revamp old codebases (as well resources), game companies make new games instead, resulting in only small cash investment in old MMO's. This allows for some expansions and tweaking. Death will be inevitable.
So when I use "grow" in my prior post, it doesn't mean the MMO gets bigger and bigger. It's reducing attrition.
Comments
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
I loved WoW until endgame. Where the only thing that matters is gear, and certainly not skill.
If that has changed, which I have a hard time believing because most people are terrible without their one hitting weapons, then I am all in. EQ was fun because that gear didn't exist in the early stages. Once any schmuck with enough time can get a weapon 20X as powerful as yours, its time for a new game.
WoW is no where near as dumb as the games that have come out in the past 13 years. It's also not pre-ToA DAoC or pre-PoP EQ that actually required your wits, not your gear, which was the exact same as Joe_just_joined_the_game.
Want PvP? Play a real PvP game. Want PvE? Play WoW or Rift. What other choice is there in this terrible, shrinking genre? I still play EQ over any other game!! SAD.
And Paigeypoo complaining is kinda hilarious. I very much think she is the type who needs others to carry her through a dungeon/pvp match. Just a hunch.
Show me a game that doesn't reward "raiding" with overpowered gear I will show you a game where skill matters. Until then, peace out. Mobile games are superior.
Swimming underwater
So many MMOs fail to implement the most basic feature of WoW, the freedom to swim underwater. Flying is just a huge added bonus (though blizzard really don't want you to fly in newer expansions). Some MMOs you can swim underwater, like BDO lets you. That is pretty high quality right there and that is actually sad cause swimming underwater is such a basic thing to have.
But then...there is SWTOR, LOTRO and FFXIV...why do they limit movement so much? Not to mention Ryzom which doesn't even let you jump over basic obstacles.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but I feel exceptionally comfortable passing some certain judgments on the devoted audience that essentially are becoming spectators of a game where they character practically plays itself.
My biggest problem with pvp though, is the removal of pvp vendors. Acquiring gear is now RNG, either through lockboxes or PVE activities (world quests).
Wasting CDs is another problem but it's even worse with macros now, especially the one-shot macros that heavy tank classes use.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There're two ways to fight this. The first is play non-commercial MMO's. There's less incentive for them to s*** on their loyal players. They're genuinely niche. The next thing you can do is play (un)dead MMO's. They do the same thing as everyone else, but at deathly slow pace. It all boils down to money. Undead MMO's are on full life support. Once the money or the hope is strong again, their desire to grow will resurface.
It's all about how much they want to grow. Generally growing is about appealing to a larger audience. It's popularly believed this means evolving the game so it's better, but this is sugar coating the reality. Truth is, the largest audience is casual and 'better' mostly pertains to them. So if you're a niche gamer, 'better' might be the evolution of unpopular games. Some players are so strongly niche there's no 'better', instead only old games to play.
The other issue is "dumb down" can mean different things. It doesn't necessarily mean the game is dumber. It might be just different, so it no longer appeals to you. If you're niche, it can suck. I think the reason "dumb" is a popular term to describe this phenomena is because that's how it feels to the sufferer. Something is lost that felt challenging or engaging to you. But the sufferer can only see it from their perspective. From another's perspective, it might actually make the game more challenging or engaging for them, paradoxically. This is because we're not all the same. This is surprising? I don't know why it should be. We're surrounded with evidence of it, but rarely notice because we're so steeped in our own perspective, or that of our group.
I am not so sure the majority of PC gamers actually want things that simple, most still active Wow players did sign up way in the past when the game was more complicated. With the "people want a game as simple as possible" logic Wow would gain players the last few expansions, not loose them.
The thing with easy and simple is that it wont hold players attention as long as moderate complexity and difficulty. The games that actually releases that way tend to do rather badly, just like games releasing too hard and difficult.
The thing with MMOS though is that they tend to be addictive and once you are in many stay a long time. I am not saying that some players wont like Wow better now then 10 years ago but I am far from certain the game would have become as popular as it got if it released with current difficulty and mechanics at launch.
The whole thing is impossible to prove sadly but there certainly is a difficulty that will maximize the number of players. That either extremely easy or extremely hard would be the right choice for that seem far fetched to me. I think Wow did right from the start and that is what made it the largest MMORPG.
And you can certainly make harder commercial games, just look on Dark souls.
Please read that.
EDIT: Another thing I forgot to mention is all games get old and die. Some take longer, but they all lose that initial brilliance. The reason game makers "dumb down" with nearly every single one--by appealing to a larger audience--is to counteract this process of decay. This only slows their death. Eventually the process of decay overpowers the attempts to counteract, without a yuuuuge cash infusion. Since it's generally increasingly hard to revamp old codebases (as well resources), game companies make new games instead, resulting in only small cash investment in old MMO's. This allows for some expansions and tweaking. Death will be inevitable.
So when I use "grow" in my prior post, it doesn't mean the MMO gets bigger and bigger. It's reducing attrition.