I disagree. The games create the atmosphere. If grouping is encouraged and rewarded, people are naturally going to be nicer to eachother (because they need them, just like in real life).
Recent MMOs do not do this. You can't even trade in BDO and there is no group content. BnS has nice group content, but it's all instanced and you warp to it, so by the time you could strike up a conversation, assuming you wanted to, the instance is over and you never see the other players again.
In any case, I call total BS on any idea that "this new generation" is a bunch of good-for-nothings. That's a theme that's persisted through history and has never been true.
Nope I don't. All I know is one of the first Vardahoth threads I ever saw was about how you just can't fit into these modern guilds and they all suck. And that one of your last rants was about how you got kicked from a dungeon but the entire rest of your party (They seemed pretty hostile when the screenshots started, sure there isn't anything you are leaving out?), and that your signature contains the words "I Quit" and attempts to blame the downfall of MMOs on Pokemon... (Did someone get "triggered" by all them damn yunguns playing their stupid phone games last year?)
Everyone has social problems. You seem to have more than your fair share. Ever considered it isn't the fault of everyone else?
Like I said. Complaining sometimes is fine, even good in the right situation. All the time destroys most social connections and makes you flat out annoying to be around, and getting too much your entertainment from people who make a living on complaining doesn't help break away from that kind of mindset.
I disagree. The games create the atmosphere. If grouping is encouraged and rewarded, people are naturally going to be nicer to eachother (because they need them, just like in real life).
LOL
Sorry, but you can't be serious.
Forced grouping has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I saw toxic and elitist people everywhere in EQ1 in 2001 and FF11 in 2002
I think this thread has quickly become a microcosm of why MMO communities appear to be mainly trash now. The same people going on idealistic rants here are the same people who likely flood your local mmo gen chat with useless shite.
I think this thread has quickly become a microcosm of why MMO communities appear to be mainly trash now. The same people going on idealistic rants here are the same people who likely flood your local mmo gen chat with useless shite.
Totally untrue! There hasn't been a single mention of anal here.
Computer use to be pretty rare, not everyone had one. So it was a different type of people playing computer games. Now they are for the masses and everyone has them. So it follows certain types of people would find them more easily available for the types of things they like to do. Our focus determines our reality. Quote
And not everyone who had a computer had an internet connection. And game subscriptions kept a lot of people out of games. Ultima Online was a very hefty $65 to buy originally, with a $10 monthly subscription. That was 20 years ago. I just couldn't justify the expense. It wasn't until WoW's release that I could afford a monthly game subscription.
Subscriptions by no means kept the toxic element out of games, but it did limit the number of people coming into games with little or no sustained interest in it. Plunking down $75 to lark around with your mates and piss people off is still a lot of money, but in 1997 is was really a lot of money.
I disagree. The games create the atmosphere. If grouping is encouraged and rewarded, people are naturally going to be nicer to eachother (because they need them, just like in real life).
Recent MMOs do not do this. You can't even trade in BDO and there is no group content. BnS has nice group content, but it's all instanced and you warp to it, so by the time you could strike up a conversation, assuming you wanted to, the instance is over and you never see the other players again.
In any case, I call total BS on any idea that "this new generation" is a bunch of good-for-nothings. That's a theme that's persisted through history and has never been true.
I'm of the believe that "nice" people are nice. I treat people well whether I need them or not. If the only reason people are treating each other well is because they need them then that right there is an issue.
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One of the main reasons I prefer to solo most of the time is that I tend go off on tangents... a lot. I like being able to do what I want to do when I want to do it. When I join a group, I tend to do whatever the group wants to do. I almost never even put forward things I want to get done, because I'm too passive for that, and I feel it's my responsibility as a group member to support the group's needs.
Is this my problem? Yep. It sure is. And my solution is to simply avoid groups unless I'm in the mood to help out other people's needs with the possible bonus that what they want to do and what I want to do coincide. Obviously, if you're running a dungeon, then that's likely to work out. But, for example, back when I was playing EQ 1, you needed to group (I was a warrior) in order to do any serious levelling -- there was really no such thing as solo content for a warrior -- so that meant being in a group at all times if you wanted to do something of significance.
At any rate, the fact that group chat has... diminished over the years doesn't really bother me much (thought it still does a little). I'm not looking for people to become long-term friends with, especially when I don't know if I'll still be playing a week or a month from then. If I'm not feeling particularly committed, or if non-game issues might come up, then I feel like it'd be selfish to attach myself to people or groups when I'm not going to be around much, or will want to spend most of my time doing my own things on my own. So I avoid groups and guilds alike, as much as I can. Maybe that's not the optimal way of handling things, but it works well enough for me.
I think the inability to separate into like-minded or culturally-similar groups is the culprit. Few MMOs support that, as things like hub-city design and global chat work against it.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I think the inability to separate into like-minded or culturally-similar groups is the culprit. Few MMOs support that, as things like hub-city design and global chat work against it.
I dont think that is the case.
I think people who want social groups already have a social group and they play together regardless of the need to.
its not like people (anymore) randomly jump into an MMO with zero real life or 'virtual friends' looking for others to play with who all like cross-stitching (as an example). The MMO as a social network is the days of 1993 at best. Now you form your groups now with other social network systems like meetup (only one random example).
So...if you dont have a social network already you jump on an MMO to find some people who are looking for the same I gotta ask, what are the chances that pool of socially disconnected but looking group of people and doing it in an MMO are going to be emotionally stable?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
List of reasons but no limited to---Drunk Players (affecting gameplay or raids), Players High on Drugs (affecting Gameplay or raids), Anti-religous bigotry, religious discussions, political discussions, discussions of rape, racist rants, cursing, putting other players down, unsolicited advice, know-it-all players, homophobic rants or slurs, sexual discussions, do nothing guilds, silly guild drama, pvp arena quitters.... etc etc
There comes a point where people get tired of this garbage. All of us have seen or at least been a victim of the above some point in the current or past. IMO this why more people desire to be solo far more so than crappy gameplay (players ive talked to). Sadly I rarely enter chats anymore. I wish this was different.
*** Double Plunger Salute to Glow on Netflix! ***
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
List of reasons but no limited to---Drunk Players (affecting gameplay or raids), Players High on Drugs (affecting Gameplay or raids), Anti-religous bigotry, religious discussions, political discussions, discussions of rape, racist rants, cursing, putting other players down, unsolicited advice, know-it-all players, homophobic rants or slurs, sexual discussions, do nothing guilds, silly guild drama, pvp arena quitters.... etc etc
There comes a point where people get tired of this garbage. All of us have seen or at least been a victim of the above some point in the current or past. IMO this why more people desire to be solo far more so than crappy gameplay (players ive talked to). Sadly I rarely enter chats anymore. I wish this was different.
*** Double Plunger Salute to Glow on Netflix! ***
basically there is a reason some people do not already have already established social groups. most are for bad reasons, some are more reasonable reasons.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The community back in Eq1 and DAoC was very mature. I pugged often and played with friends. You saw very little of what we see today. I just dont understand why it has gotten so bad.
We hardly ever kicked someone. They had to ninja loot or but a complete ass. I remember grouping with bad players and that never even crossed our minds. I helped out newbies, I raised people, summoned corpses.
I think those times are sadly gone forever ;(.
I had the same experiences...Both excellent communities (AO too).....Really I didnt see a bad community (other than UO which was PVP) until WoW, then it really got bad.
The community back in Eq1 and DAoC was very mature. I pugged often and played with friends. You saw very little of what we see today. I just dont understand why it has gotten so bad.
We hardly ever kicked someone. They had to ninja loot or but a complete ass. I remember grouping with bad players and that never even crossed our minds. I helped out newbies, I raised people, summoned corpses.
I think those times are sadly gone forever ;(.
I had the same experiences...Both excellent communities (AO too).....Really I didnt see a bad community (other than UO which was PVP) until WoW, then it really got bad.
Showing how naive I was, I recall leveling in some upper level, pre raiding dungeon and ran into a player who immediately dropped group once we completed the interim boss and he didn't get the drop he wanted.
Someone explained to me this player was well known for doing this and I still recall being amazed and appalled anyone would care so little for their in game reputation, never mind how selfish they must be.
Just the tip of the iceberg, and the start of a very long spiral downwards.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
List of reasons but no limited to---Drunk Players (affecting gameplay or raids), Players High on Drugs (affecting Gameplay or raids), Anti-religous bigotry, religious discussions, political discussions, discussions of rape, racist rants, cursing, putting other players down, unsolicited advice, know-it-all players, homophobic rants or slurs, sexual discussions, do nothing guilds, silly guild drama, pvp arena quitters.... etc etc
There comes a point where people get tired of this garbage. All of us have seen or at least been a victim of the above some point in the current or past. IMO this why more people desire to be solo far more so than crappy gameplay (players ive talked to). Sadly I rarely enter chats anymore. I wish this was different.
*** Double Plunger Salute to Glow on Netflix! ***
basically there is a reason some people do not already have already established social groups. most are for bad reasons, some are more reasonable reasons.
Well some of us are just too good to socialize with the "riff-raff" out there.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's not that I want a solo experience - that isn't true at all. In fact I prefer a highly social game and game play, even though I'm not an outgoing extrovert.
I just don't want the inconvenience of having to wait for other people, put up with stupid people/trolls, or have to endure caustic or rude communities.
There's no perfect system that addresses all of that, I know. I don't even think it's possible, too many of those things are at odds with each other.
Thats part of it but it isn't the whole part. The fact is that most rpg solo games are much much better than anything mmo's currently offer because they are willing to expand what they offer and try new things while MMO's are busy whining how it's getting harder to wow people with graphics instead.
#2 In general, I have noticed more and more people becoming over sensitive and soft. SJW's have pretty much made most developers listen to their cries, and developers have decided to let SJW's dictate how their game is going to be created. Which is why you have stuff like this happening...
If you think MMO's have been overrun by SJW's, you should turn general chat back on, that should dissolve that notion promptly.
I used to know around 25 - 30 people that played mmo's back in 99/2000. Today of all those people maybe a few of them plays today and if they do it will be an old classic mmo. And i mean mmo's pre Wow. They all say the same thing " mmo player today suck". So if they get the itch they will login to games like DAOC of something like that because those games are filled with players that feel like they do about newer game communities.
Thats part of it but it isn't the whole part. The fact is that most rpg solo games are much much better than anything mmo's currently offer because they are willing to expand what they offer and try new things while MMO's are busy whining how it's getting harder to wow people with graphics instead.
most but not all.
For example, there is no action RPG with marvel characters except marvel heroes (unless you go back to the ancient MUA1 & 2). (well, i don't count mobile games ... )
For example, there are few story driven sp game like The Secret World.
I wouldn't mind if these two are single player games, rather than MMOs. I play them as single player games.
I disagree. The games create the atmosphere. If grouping is encouraged and rewarded, people are naturally going to be nicer to eachother (because they need them, just like in real life).
Recent MMOs do not do this. You can't even trade in BDO and there is no group content. BnS has nice group content, but it's all instanced and you warp to it, so by the time you could strike up a conversation, assuming you wanted to, the instance is over and you never see the other players again.
In any case, I call total BS on any idea that "this new generation" is a bunch of good-for-nothings. That's a theme that's persisted through history and has never been true.
I agree. We might say MMO's are a "bunch of good-for-nothings," but that'd be throwing millions of players into the fire who happily gulp it down.
On its surface, that suggests something's wrong with this generation. They're playing and subbing these MMO's. They deserve some of the blame, right? Alas, it's not the generation, instead It's several things. The most obvious is the huge growth in players between 1997 and now. The bulk of them are casual types and they expect MMO's to be "plug-and-play". It just so happens soloing is "plug-and-play" compliant more than grouping.
You might then ask did nobody complain when there were MMO's like Everquest, with high group forcings? Why should the population in 1999 have no casuals, you asK? Oh there was plenty of them. And not all MMO's back then were equal. Ultima Online was older than Everqeust and it had a friendier solo environment with faster travelling--albiet with PvP until 2000 when Renaissance launched, adding a whole non-pvp continent. Players complained bitterly about it and fled to other MMO's if there were any encouraging signs. MMO's popped up one after the other for six years after Everquest launched. No matter what some people will say, this had a negative affect on Everquest's population. Players who started to hate camping and hell levels and so forth, believe me, they left. I remember one such person leaving to play Anarchy Online. Some stayed, despite constant bickering, if only for love.
So what's happened is the industry grew by millons. The MMO designers figured out what should be their target audience. It wasn't immediately apparent. By the time WoW released, it was self-evident.
The result is to find an MMO with high group forcings, in the veign of old Everquest, you're digging into very niche ground. This excludes all AAA as ignoring casuals is a death sentence. You must find a MMO with far smaller ambition. But this is no guarantee. Best choice is avoid commercial MMO's. Money is too strong a temptation.
So you see? It's not generational. The same types of people exist now existed then. What's different is the industry grew and most of the added players are casual. It's part design, part nature. The reality is casuals are more common than others. Even before WoW, casuals were the most common, but MMO designers were still learning the ropes.
Personally I've never understood why people have such an issue with other people choosing to solo. I think the issue is when the game systems are really set up in a way that makes you feel forced to solo.
Here are some reasons I choose to solo in MMOs:
1. When I feel like other players are actually slowing me down from achieving my objectives. 2. When I crunch the numbers and realize there is more reward in solo content after you calculate your chances of actually getting the drop you need. 3. Because the people I want to play with are not in my level range. 4. Because of difficulty in finding a group that fills all the needed roles.
While I've gone on about the need to fix three (Just check my signature if you want a discussion on that) and implementing my suggested solutions for that would also help number 4 by giving a larger pool of players you can quest with, 1 and 2 are listed first for a reason.
Those are my most frequent reasons to avoid grouping and there is really no justifiable reason for that in my mind. With the exclusion of flakes who keep going afk every 10 seconds grouping should be the fastest route to big rewards. But it rarely is, because the rewards just don't account for the extra hassle of having to find and put a group together and then coordinate your efforts. And so many of the rewards you do get for group content are RNG.
And since the quests are braindead simple to complete having that extra person there to help you through quests can often slow you down more than it speeds you up as you rarely ever need help killing mobs.
I don't want an MMO where "soloing isn't viable" or grouping is forced. I just want an MMO where groups help me more than they hinder me except in the cases where I am absolutely required to group to get something I need. I actually really enjoy grouping, I just always end up feeling like my group is holding me back.
Comments
Recent MMOs do not do this. You can't even trade in BDO and there is no group content. BnS has nice group content, but it's all instanced and you warp to it, so by the time you could strike up a conversation, assuming you wanted to, the instance is over and you never see the other players again.
In any case, I call total BS on any idea that "this new generation" is a bunch of good-for-nothings. That's a theme that's persisted through history and has never been true.
Everyone has social problems. You seem to have more than your fair share. Ever considered it isn't the fault of everyone else?
Like I said. Complaining sometimes is fine, even good in the right situation. All the time destroys most social connections and makes you flat out annoying to be around, and getting too much your entertainment from people who make a living on complaining doesn't help break away from that kind of mindset.
Whatever. Just my advise. Take it or leave it.
Sorry, but you can't be serious.
Forced grouping has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I saw toxic and elitist people everywhere in EQ1 in 2001 and FF11 in 2002
Totally untrue! There hasn't been a single mention of anal here.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
And not everyone who had a computer had an internet connection. And game subscriptions kept a lot of people out of games. Ultima Online was a very hefty $65 to buy originally, with a $10 monthly subscription. That was 20 years ago. I just couldn't justify the expense. It wasn't until WoW's release that I could afford a monthly game subscription.
Subscriptions by no means kept the toxic element out of games, but it did limit the number of people coming into games with little or no sustained interest in it. Plunking down $75 to lark around with your mates and piss people off is still a lot of money, but in 1997 is was really a lot of money.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Is this my problem? Yep. It sure is. And my solution is to simply avoid groups unless I'm in the mood to help out other people's needs with the possible bonus that what they want to do and what I want to do coincide. Obviously, if you're running a dungeon, then that's likely to work out. But, for example, back when I was playing EQ 1, you needed to group (I was a warrior) in order to do any serious levelling -- there was really no such thing as solo content for a warrior -- so that meant being in a group at all times if you wanted to do something of significance.
At any rate, the fact that group chat has... diminished over the years doesn't really bother me much (thought it still does a little). I'm not looking for people to become long-term friends with, especially when I don't know if I'll still be playing a week or a month from then. If I'm not feeling particularly committed, or if non-game issues might come up, then I feel like it'd be selfish to attach myself to people or groups when I'm not going to be around much, or will want to spend most of my time doing my own things on my own. So I avoid groups and guilds alike, as much as I can. Maybe that's not the optimal way of handling things, but it works well enough for me.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I think people who want social groups already have a social group and they play together regardless of the need to.
its not like people (anymore) randomly jump into an MMO with zero real life or 'virtual friends' looking for others to play with who all like cross-stitching (as an example). The MMO as a social network is the days of 1993 at best. Now you form your groups now with other social network systems like meetup (only one random example).
So...if you dont have a social network already you jump on an MMO to find some people who are looking for the same I gotta ask, what are the chances that pool of socially disconnected but looking group of people and doing it in an MMO are going to be emotionally stable?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
There comes a point where people get tired of this garbage. All of us have seen or at least been a victim of the above some point in the current or past. IMO this why more people desire to be solo far more so than crappy gameplay (players ive talked to). Sadly I rarely enter chats anymore. I wish this was different.
*** Double Plunger Salute to Glow on Netflix! ***
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
most are for bad reasons, some are more reasonable reasons.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Someone explained to me this player was well known for doing this and I still recall being amazed and appalled anyone would care so little for their in game reputation, never mind how selfish they must be.
Just the tip of the iceberg, and the start of a very long spiral downwards.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I just don't want the inconvenience of having to wait for other people, put up with stupid people/trolls, or have to endure caustic or rude communities.
There's no perfect system that addresses all of that, I know. I don't even think it's possible, too many of those things are at odds with each other.
True when Sartre said it. Still true now.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
most but not all.
For example, there is no action RPG with marvel characters except marvel heroes (unless you go back to the ancient MUA1 & 2). (well, i don't count mobile games ... )
For example, there are few story driven sp game like The Secret World.
I wouldn't mind if these two are single player games, rather than MMOs. I play them as single player games.
On its surface, that suggests something's wrong with this generation. They're playing and subbing these MMO's. They deserve some of the blame, right? Alas, it's not the generation, instead It's several things. The most obvious is the huge growth in players between 1997 and now. The bulk of them are casual types and they expect MMO's to be "plug-and-play". It just so happens soloing is "plug-and-play" compliant more than grouping.
You might then ask did nobody complain when there were MMO's like Everquest, with high group forcings? Why should the population in 1999 have no casuals, you asK? Oh there was plenty of them. And not all MMO's back then were equal. Ultima Online was older than Everqeust and it had a friendier solo environment with faster travelling--albiet with PvP until 2000 when Renaissance launched, adding a whole non-pvp continent. Players complained bitterly about it and fled to other MMO's if there were any encouraging signs. MMO's popped up one after the other for six years after Everquest launched. No matter what some people will say, this had a negative affect on Everquest's population. Players who started to hate camping and hell levels and so forth, believe me, they left. I remember one such person leaving to play Anarchy Online. Some stayed, despite constant bickering, if only for love.
So what's happened is the industry grew by millons. The MMO designers figured out what should be their target audience. It wasn't immediately apparent. By the time WoW released, it was self-evident.
The result is to find an MMO with high group forcings, in the veign of old Everquest, you're digging into very niche ground. This excludes all AAA as ignoring casuals is a death sentence. You must find a MMO with far smaller ambition. But this is no guarantee. Best choice is avoid commercial MMO's. Money is too strong a temptation.
So you see? It's not generational. The same types of people exist now existed then. What's different is the industry grew and most of the added players are casual. It's part design, part nature. The reality is casuals are more common than others. Even before WoW, casuals were the most common, but MMO designers were still learning the ropes.
Here are some reasons I choose to solo in MMOs:
1. When I feel like other players are actually slowing me down from achieving my objectives.
2. When I crunch the numbers and realize there is more reward in solo content after you calculate your chances of actually getting the drop you need.
3. Because the people I want to play with are not in my level range.
4. Because of difficulty in finding a group that fills all the needed roles.
While I've gone on about the need to fix three (Just check my signature if you want a discussion on that) and implementing my suggested solutions for that would also help number 4 by giving a larger pool of players you can quest with, 1 and 2 are listed first for a reason.
Those are my most frequent reasons to avoid grouping and there is really no justifiable reason for that in my mind. With the exclusion of flakes who keep going afk every 10 seconds grouping should be the fastest route to big rewards. But it rarely is, because the rewards just don't account for the extra hassle of having to find and put a group together and then coordinate your efforts. And so many of the rewards you do get for group content are RNG.
And since the quests are braindead simple to complete having that extra person there to help you through quests can often slow you down more than it speeds you up as you rarely ever need help killing mobs.
I don't want an MMO where "soloing isn't viable" or grouping is forced. I just want an MMO where groups help me more than they hinder me except in the cases where I am absolutely required to group to get something I need. I actually really enjoy grouping, I just always end up feeling like my group is holding me back.