I still have difficulties understanding the whole mobile MMO "thing". I just can't poop long enough to finish a raid. My legs fall asleep.
Tongue-in-cheek aside, I'm in the same boat. When I have free time, I'm generally at home. Even if the games were made with mobile in mind, having the tactile response and comfort of sitting in my gaming chair with my headphones on enjoying a large screen is going to outweigh the convenience of having a device in my pocket that can play the game.
If I'm not at home, I'm generally out being busy living life.
I don't get why B&S performs better than GW2. It's nowhere near as well made and it offers only a fraction of the content.
I just hope PoF won't mess up the open world content and make it harder than it should be,because that will seriously turn off a lot of players. When Anet got butt hurt,because all the cool forum goers and youtubers that don't even play the game told them the game wasn't hard enough,they made HoT and we all know how well that went. This,and PvP/WvW balance will make or break the expansion. Currently class balance outside of PvE is a clusterf@ck,and listening to the devs talking about the new Elites made me wonder if they've played their game once in the past 2 years. Understandably it's advertising material and devs tend to speak out of their asses sometimes,but still...
B&S has appeal in Korea, which GW2 doesn't + B&S goes greedy in Korea: P2P + cash shop. GW2 doesn't make much money from its cash shop as B&S does, it relies basically on expansion releases.
I don't get why B&S performs better than GW2. It's nowhere near as well made and it offers only a fraction of the content.
I just hope PoF won't mess up the open world content and make it harder than it should be,because that will seriously turn off a lot of players. When Anet got butt hurt,because all the cool forum goers and youtubers that don't even play the game told them the game wasn't hard enough,they made HoT and we all know how well that went. This,and PvP/WvW balance will make or break the expansion. Currently class balance outside of PvE is a clusterf@ck,and listening to the devs talking about the new Elites made me wonder if they've played their game once in the past 2 years. Understandably it's advertising material and devs tend to speak out of their asses sometimes,but still...
B&S has appeal in Korea, which GW2 doesn't + B&S goes greedy in Korea: P2P + cash shop. GW2 doesn't make much money from its cash shop as B&S does, it relies basically on expansion releases.
Is that how Lineage 1 is sold now too with P2P + cash shop? I can't read Korean but the last time I was at the NCK site it looked that way. It was hard to tell because there was so much Flash on the page that Chrome couldn't translate.
Yes, one of the reasons for L1 revenue drop besides players switching to Lineage M was a scale-back on its cash shop by decreasing the variety of stuff available.
We're going to find out, and sooner rather than later, because catering to your whales is not a viable long-term business model. What most of these companies seem to not understand is how to entice people to give them money. Almost all of them do it by trying to frustrate you. By making progress so difficult or time-consuming, or by locking the best characters and/or gear behind paywalls that people feel compelled to pay in order to compete. But this ultimately leads to resentment on both sides. Those that have the discretionary income to spend feel suckered and those that don't are made to feel second class. And resentment almost always leads to a breaking point where one says "enough". And in this situation once you've lost your whales, you're done. Because you've alienated everyone else with your BS that now no one is going to give you any money.
The best long-term solution is to entice people, not frustrate them. It's better if you can convince 500,000 to give you $10/month than it is 50,000 $100/month. And you do that by being generous, by not making progress unbearable if you do not pay, and to keep your prices fair. Very few mobile developers seem to understand this, which is why most of them are doomed to fail. This also seems to be the case for a number of PC MMOs too, that have shifted to catering to whales at the expense of everyone else. It's simply not going to end well. It's only a short-term fix. And if companies can't get things back on track to getting people to contribute small regular amounts then it's literally game over.
My whales? I think they are every bit your whales as well if you play any game that has a cash shop.
As far as "catering to them is not a viable long-term model" well that's kind of a superficial given isn't it?
I say "superficial" because on the surface why would any company cater to a small group of people who make up the bulk of their business BUT who will take their business elsewhere on a whim? The 'but' is the important part there.
Except as I said, they are the only people spending money.
It's such a rabbit hole that it would take more than one post to lay it all out. You say that the best long term solution is to entice people and Frenchie says that developers need to bring unique experiences.
So again, that's a pretty superficial given isn't it? "make great products and people will come". Ok well, you're a billionaire now; NEXT!"
Don't you think that developers want to do good work? Most people, unless there is something wrong with them want to do "good work".
But there is no magic bullet otherwise they would be doing it. If it was easy to make unique content that enticed people then everyone would be trying.
The problem is that for every risk they take, for every "unique experience they come up with" they take a huge gamble that very well may leave them closed/unemployed if the players look at it and say "well, at least they tried something different; NEXT".
And players do that on these forums. Heck, you see an indie game and suddenly people start complaining that it looks so 1996 (whether it does or not) or "animations suck" or "it's too old school".
If it was that easy I'd saunter into x game developer lay out their panacea du jour and walk away with my take.
No, as Frenchie suggested "it's game over".
Game developers can only do so much. There are too many masters and in the end it's a rough business where players can just as easily say "hmmm maybe not" and move on.
So who to cater to? Make a business on following the whales until they are bored and then turn on a dime and make another product or cater to the large amount of players out there who don't want to pay a thing but want magic! Because that's what they do in the east you know, they come out with some crap game, open as many servers as they can and then close the game and do it again. Well, at least from the few sources I've seen.
Obviously NC Soft doens't exactly do that but they aren't really doing that well except for their "umpteen year old title which still makes the bulk of their money".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Gaming was used to get people comfortable with using a pc. Now mobile games are serving the same use. A lot of people I know who aren't into computers are playing mobile games because they're easy to install and it's easy to find one you like. I don't really play mobile games but have for short periods of time just to to try them out.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The games are way more simplistic and dont cost hardly a thing to make in comparison...even if a mobile game flops the losses arent devastating like it is if a PC or console game flops.
Why is this a surprise. NcSoft makes terrible games for the PC. I stay far away from mobile games as they are not much more then money grabs and trash at that.
To understand the whole mobile thing is to just look around in life,i see people staring at their phones non stop like it is their child's first walking steps.To me what i see is a pathetic new culture clinging to their phones but this is life,i am sure our parents...grandparents thought some of our trends were stupid dumb.
I was a long time techie,even as a kid i loved taking electrical devices a part and figuring them out,but i have never been interested in a cell phone anymore than my house phone.The other day i saw a family of 4 hunched down on the side of the sidewalk ,around 9:30 pm as i was walking my dogs.They were playing Pokemon Go lmao,so much for the family walk/exercise ,time to break out the cell phones...sigh.
Quality family time gathered around a cell phone,yep definitely a different culture than the one i grew up in.
Yeah i am quite certain most people know mobile stuff has been and still is doing very well.I laugh at some of the pricing...home internet unlimited 60 bucks,,,cell phone 50 bucks for 6 gigs lmao.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
@Sovrath as I mentioned, normal gamers aren't refusing to pay for anything.. They're just not as easily convinced to part with $400 for digital assets in a video game as are those with a lot more money.
Gamers, the normal, casual ones, still spend frequently on games. They just don't spend frequently on F2P games.
Why is this a surprise. NcSoft makes terrible games for the PC. I stay far away from mobile games as they are not much more then money grabs and trash at that.
Criticize a game on its merits and flaws.
Criticize a platform; there are such things as hardware limitations.
Criticize a market; sometimes there are unhelpful trends.
However, make a statement like "mobile games [...] are not much more then money grabs and trash at that" and I only need show one counterexample to disprove you, which I already have ITT.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
@Sovrath as I mentioned, normal gamers aren't refusing to pay for anything.. They're just not as easily convinced to part with $400 for digital assets in a video game as are those with a lot more money.
Gamers, the normal, casual ones, still spend frequently on games. They just don't spend frequently on F2P games.
I remember reading an article/interview (and I can't for the life of me remember what is was so take this with a grain of salt) that said the whales made a very small percentage of the population but paid exponentially more.
So I'm not sure "normal gamers" (or players) are paying their share.
Oh sure there are people who pay most assuredly, I'm one of them. If I'm playing a game I try to find something to buy to support the game, no free lunch here.
As far as $400 digitial assets, yeah that stuff is primarily for the people who would pay that. But it's there to make up for the people who don't pay a dime.
The question is, if the whales were completely removed from the equation, so that no one person could spend more than any other, would these games survive? Or even be made?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Again, normal players are still spending frequently, just not on games designed specifically to fleece whales.
A quick Google search shows the top grossing PC online game for 2015 (wasn't able to find 2016 in my quick search) was GTAV. It's not F2P. It's a B2P game that also sold over 11 million copies in the first 24 hours.
2016 top grossing Steam Games:
Dark souls III Total War: Warhammer Fallout 4 Civ 5 The Division NMS GTA V Xcom 2 Witcher 3 Rocket League
The vast majority of the top grossing games aren't F2P. Casual players are still willing to spend, they're just not willing to try and play a meta game of keeping up with the Joneses. Market saturation and a lean towards fleecing whales will do that to your casual consumer base.
Would there be as many titles released if the F2P "revolution" hadn't happened? No. Does that mean that more titles flooding the market is always a good thing? Again, no. Just take a look at the mobile market. It's fairly predatory, beyond what's seen in the MMORPG market, due to the market saturation and prevalence of F2P.
Again, normal players are still spending frequently, just not on games designed specifically to fleece whales.
A quick Google search shows the top grossing PC online game for 2015 (wasn't able to find 2016 in my quick search) was GTAV. It's not F2P. It's a B2P game that also sold over 11 million copies in the first 24 hours.
2016 top grossing Steam Games:
Dark souls III Total War: Warhammer Fallout 4 Civ 5 The Division NMS GTA V Xcom 2 Witcher 3 Rocket League
The vast majority of the top grossing games aren't F2P. Casual players are still willing to spend, they're just not willing to try and play a meta game of keeping up with the Joneses. Market saturation and a lean towards fleecing whales will do that to your casual consumer base.
Would there be as many titles released if the F2P "revolution" hadn't happened? No. Does that mean that more titles flooding the market is always a good thing? Again, no. Just take a look at the mobile market. It's fairly predatory, beyond what's seen in the MMORPG market, due to the market saturation and prevalence of F2P.
At this point single player pc games aren't really the issue. I say "at this point" because as we know, the new Shadow of Mordor (or whatever it's called) just announced microtransactions.
But there's no keeping up with the joneses in Fallout 4or or the Witcher 3. They are games you buy and play. Piracy excluded. So they aren't really part of the conversation yet.
It's the multiplayer games that invite that. So are people willing to buy games? Of course, especially when (short of piracy) that is the only way to get them.
But in cash shop games where they are f2p or buy to play with a low barrier to entry, most people don't spend money.
I mean, the Forbes article I saw (and I can't verify whether it's true or not but we'll go with it) indicated that .15% of the population paid for 50% of the revenue in mobile games.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Again, normal players are still spending frequently, just not on games designed specifically to fleece whales.
A quick Google search shows the top grossing PC online game for 2015 (wasn't able to find 2016 in my quick search) was GTAV. It's not F2P. It's a B2P game that also sold over 11 million copies in the first 24 hours.
2016 top grossing Steam Games:
Dark souls III Total War: Warhammer Fallout 4 Civ 5 The Division NMS GTA V Xcom 2 Witcher 3 Rocket League
The vast majority of the top grossing games aren't F2P. Casual players are still willing to spend, they're just not willing to try and play a meta game of keeping up with the Joneses. Market saturation and a lean towards fleecing whales will do that to your casual consumer base.
Would there be as many titles released if the F2P "revolution" hadn't happened? No. Does that mean that more titles flooding the market is always a good thing? Again, no. Just take a look at the mobile market. It's fairly predatory, beyond what's seen in the MMORPG market, due to the market saturation and prevalence of F2P.
Your stats are off. The top grossing game of 2015 is League of Legends and it isn't even close. GTA V generated 200 million dollars on PC in 2015 while League was around 1.6 billion. Even if you include GTA V's sales on consoles, it doesn't come close.
Top grossing game of 2016 was League too and the same goes for 2017 so far. We aren't even talking about PC alone but gaming industry all around.
To add to my previous comment - in 2016, 8 of the top 10 grossing games on PC are free to play. The whole narrative of free to play games don't generate that much money is simply inaccurate. Also, the eastern market is much bigger than some people believe.
To make it clear, this isn't me trying to support the free to play market (or oppose it for that matter). Your comment just caught my attention since I knew the top grossing game the last couple of years have been League.
Comments
If I'm not at home, I'm generally out being busy living life.
As far as "catering to them is not a viable long-term model" well that's kind of a superficial given isn't it?
I say "superficial" because on the surface why would any company cater to a small group of people who make up the bulk of their business BUT who will take their business elsewhere on a whim? The 'but' is the important part there.
Except as I said, they are the only people spending money.
It's such a rabbit hole that it would take more than one post to lay it all out. You say that the best long term solution is to entice people and Frenchie says that developers need to bring unique experiences.
So again, that's a pretty superficial given isn't it? "make great products and people will come". Ok well, you're a billionaire now; NEXT!"
Don't you think that developers want to do good work? Most people, unless there is something wrong with them want to do "good work".
But there is no magic bullet otherwise they would be doing it. If it was easy to make unique content that enticed people then everyone would be trying.
The problem is that for every risk they take, for every "unique experience they come up with" they take a huge gamble that very well may leave them closed/unemployed if the players look at it and say "well, at least they tried something different; NEXT".
And players do that on these forums. Heck, you see an indie game and suddenly people start complaining that it looks so 1996 (whether it does or not) or "animations suck" or "it's too old school".
If it was that easy I'd saunter into x game developer lay out their panacea du jour and walk away with my take.
No, as Frenchie suggested "it's game over".
Game developers can only do so much. There are too many masters and in the end it's a rough business where players can just as easily say "hmmm maybe not" and move on.
So who to cater to? Make a business on following the whales until they are bored and then turn on a dime and make another product or cater to the large amount of players out there who don't want to pay a thing but want magic! Because that's what they do in the east you know, they come out with some crap game, open as many servers as they can and then close the game and do it again. Well, at least from the few sources I've seen.
Obviously NC Soft doens't exactly do that but they aren't really doing that well except for their "umpteen year old title which still makes the bulk of their money".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Let's party like it is 1863!
I was a long time techie,even as a kid i loved taking electrical devices a part and figuring them out,but i have never been interested in a cell phone anymore than my house phone.The other day i saw a family of 4 hunched down on the side of the sidewalk ,around 9:30 pm as i was walking my dogs.They were playing Pokemon Go lmao,so much for the family walk/exercise ,time to break out the cell phones...sigh.
Quality family time gathered around a cell phone,yep definitely a different culture than the one i grew up in.
Yeah i am quite certain most people know mobile stuff has been and still is doing very well.I laugh at some of the pricing...home internet unlimited 60 bucks,,,cell phone 50 bucks for 6 gigs lmao.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Gamers, the normal, casual ones, still spend frequently on games. They just don't spend frequently on F2P games.
Criticize a platform; there are such things as hardware limitations.
Criticize a market; sometimes there are unhelpful trends.
However, make a statement like "mobile games [...] are not much more then money grabs and trash at that" and I only need show one counterexample to disprove you, which I already have ITT.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
So I'm not sure "normal gamers" (or players) are paying their share.
Oh sure there are people who pay most assuredly, I'm one of them. If I'm playing a game I try to find something to buy to support the game, no free lunch here.
As far as $400 digitial assets, yeah that stuff is primarily for the people who would pay that. But it's there to make up for the people who don't pay a dime.
The question is, if the whales were completely removed from the equation, so that no one person could spend more than any other, would these games survive? Or even be made?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
A quick Google search shows the top grossing PC online game for 2015 (wasn't able to find 2016 in my quick search) was GTAV. It's not F2P. It's a B2P game that also sold over 11 million copies in the first 24 hours.
2016 top grossing Steam Games:
Dark souls III
Total War: Warhammer
Fallout 4
Civ 5
The Division
NMS
GTA V
Xcom 2
Witcher 3
Rocket League
The vast majority of the top grossing games aren't F2P. Casual players are still willing to spend, they're just not willing to try and play a meta game of keeping up with the Joneses. Market saturation and a lean towards fleecing whales will do that to your casual consumer base.
Would there be as many titles released if the F2P "revolution" hadn't happened? No. Does that mean that more titles flooding the market is always a good thing? Again, no. Just take a look at the mobile market. It's fairly predatory, beyond what's seen in the MMORPG market, due to the market saturation and prevalence of F2P.
But there's no keeping up with the joneses in Fallout 4or or the Witcher 3. They are games you buy and play. Piracy excluded. So they aren't really part of the conversation yet.
It's the multiplayer games that invite that. So are people willing to buy games? Of course, especially when (short of piracy) that is the only way to get them.
But in cash shop games where they are f2p or buy to play with a low barrier to entry, most people don't spend money.
I mean, the Forbes article I saw (and I can't verify whether it's true or not but we'll go with it) indicated that .15% of the population paid for 50% of the revenue in mobile games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Your stats are off. The top grossing game of 2015 is League of Legends and it isn't even close. GTA V generated 200 million dollars on PC in 2015 while League was around 1.6 billion. Even if you include GTA V's sales on consoles, it doesn't come close.
Top grossing game of 2016 was League too and the same goes for 2017 so far. We aren't even talking about PC alone but gaming industry all around.
In fact, the vast majority of top grossing games on PC are free to play. Of the top 10 highest grossing games in 2015, 7 were free to play. You can check the list here: https://mmos.com/news/superdatas-2015-stats-place-league-of-legends-and-clash-of-clans-at-the-top
To add to my previous comment - in 2016, 8 of the top 10 grossing games on PC are free to play. The whole narrative of free to play games don't generate that much money is simply inaccurate. Also, the eastern market is much bigger than some people believe.
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/top-10-highest-grossing-console-and-pc-digital-gam/1100-6444869/
To make it clear, this isn't me trying to support the free to play market (or oppose it for that matter). Your comment just caught my attention since I knew the top grossing game the last couple of years have been League.