So the competitive portion of the game is the campaigns.
The "Look at my giant trophy room full of golden epeens, aren't they pretty?" portion of the game is the Eternal Kingdoms.
The properties you can purchase for cash are in the Eternal Kingdoms.
In other words, nothing that happens in the Eternal Kingdoms is pay to win, because the campaigns are the only portion of the game where serious competition happens.
@genaknosc got it right when he says you guys are complaining about things you don't even understand. If you can ascribe the word "Pay to Win" to things purchased for the EK you clearly have no concept how this game works.
So basically this is the equivalent of a $7,000 costume for your instanced does-not-produce-any-tangible-benefit house.
Well, while I think that's silly, that's really not P2W that I can think of.
Right. The Eternal Kingdoms are going to be a portion of the game where a lot of socializing, roleplay, etc happens. You'll be able to bring people over to check out your 7000$ pad but you won't be using your 7000$ pad as a base of operations in scenarios that actually matter.
I think one main thing to impress though is with all crowdfunded things if you are paying 7000$ you aren't really being delivered 7000$ in value usually. It's like when you donate to charity and they give you some kind of thank you gift for your donation.
The reason you would pay 7000$ into any crowdfunded campaign is because you believe in the product and you really want to see it succeed, to the tune of 7000$. That might seem pretty ridiculous to most people. As a college student there are a lot better things I could do with 7000$ for sure. But some people have that kind of money and really want to see these games made.
In a game with player-built villages, towns, cities and castle empires, you can either start the game with an empty world, or with some players who already have starting villages, cities, castles, buildings, etc. If you go with the empty world, it doesn't take very long for the world to get populated with all the villages, cities, castles etc. For a game with limited funding that relies on pledges, I don't find anything wrong with big donations allowing players to be the first of the people to settle in the game world and flesh out the "political" landscape. Just think of these players as the original nobility with a family lineage that traces back to the earliest history of the game. The players' pledges helped create the game world, so it makes sense to me that they should have a historical place in it. It also means that all players (even ones with the lowest pledge value, like myself) have new places to live in and interact with. If you don't like the lord of a castle, then that's great. The place has personality instead of if the castle was just an NPC hub.
Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another way is that it gives whales a huge starting advantage over the average player who can't afford to spend that kind of money. Am I right that these cash shop buildings give an instant PvP advantage to the purchaser? Is there any indication of how much player time and effort it would take to earn something like an Imperial Palace in-game? That's important, too. If it's a week, maybe no big deal. If it's a year, big deal. That's assuming that comparable structures can even me earned through in-game activities. Is that known yet?
FYI... NO purchased asset can be used or imported to the competitive game world. In fact even items made in your Eternal Kingdom, where these "Large Guild level community landmark buildings" are only allowed to be placed, are not able to be imported into the deepest PvP worlds and have import limits to the less harsh outer module campaign worlds. These buildings have NO direct value as far as PvP power of a player account. So many ill-informed gamers that give Bad info or speculate wildly without reading a simple FAQ.
tl/dr: Imperial Castles are pretty much cosmetic to the high end competitive guilds that will have them.
Why is there even a whole page of people discussing P2W here when nobody involved in the debate even knows anything about Crowfall EK's. lol, people complaining about shit they don't even understand
mmorpg.com is full of carebear rpg types who tend to wildly speculate on how rough they would have it in the PvP sandbox, overrate the difficulty of survival or rather the complexity of social networks required to excel at sandbox PvP. Eve players will thrive with a slight shift of mindset, WoW players will not.
I think people need to learn more about EKs before they speak.
This is taken from the FAQs:
18. WILL A BIG KINGDOM BENEFIT ME IN THE CAMPAIGN WORLDS?
No. The
Campaign Worlds all have import rules that severely limit the number of
items that can be brought into the world. Having a larger, more
developed EK will not directly impact the game balance within the
campaigns.
Basically having a tiny Kingdom or a huge one won't make any difference to the real Campaign World.
Then there is the matter of "what is an Eternal Kingdom"? Simply put EKs are Private Servers. I personally don't think that anything that can be bought to pimp a Private Server make the game P2W. No one is forced to play or even visit those Private Servers, they are purely aesthetics and serve mainly as a community hub for Guilds. It's not like in SotA where Buildings occupy actual World space and can be seen and visited by anyone strolling along the city streets.
If you buy a $7K Palace for your EK, you don't win anything.
Well, on a positive note, this is more of an indication of a game not being vaporware and they are confident enough in the fun factor of their game that someone would be willing to drop that kind of money.
From a business point of view, this creates the perception of quality.
When you have something that is more costly despite it being similar in quality to other goods, person assumes that it is of higher quality.
Hopefully this perception of quality is true for something that looks like could be good fun.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
People have spent thousands of dollars on ships in Star Citizen, and these are individual players mind you. AFAIK, those can actually be used in a competitive way. Some people claim that isn't P2W because people can earn those same ships in game. I disagree with that definition, but that's an argument for another time.
In CF, the things you buy in the store don't impact competitive play, AND they can all be created in-game (excluding certain skins/cosmetics that were given as rewards for various stuff, like the fallen colossus parcel). Functionally, there is nothing you can buy that you can't also create in-game. The amount of time and effort some of these things will take to make will be substantial, but as they provide no competitive advantage, that's not a problem. People aren't getting ahead by buying them rather than making them.
People have spent thousands of dollars on ships in Star Citizen, and these are individual players mind you. AFAIK, those can actually be used in a competitive way. Some people claim that isn't P2W because people can earn those same ships in game. I disagree with that definition, but that's an argument for another time.
In CF, the things you buy in the store don't impact competitive play, AND they can all be created in-game (excluding certain skins/cosmetics that were given as rewards for various stuff, like the fallen colossus parcel). Functionally, there is nothing you can buy that you can't also create in-game. The amount of time and effort some of these things will take to make will be substantial, but as they provide no competitive advantage, that's not a problem. People aren't getting ahead by buying them rather than making them.
Oh yes. LTI ships in Star Citizen are very much a part of the in-game economy and have an impact on the world. I'll list my personal purchases to help give some perspective. Some of these figures are ballpark because I don't really remember exactly what I bought/sold them for at this point.
1000$ Idriss-M LTI - 50% Ownership for 500$ (Later Sold for 3800) <-100% accurate. I know those prices by heart. 400$ Anvil Carrack LTI (Still owned) 125$ Superhornet LTI x 2 (1 sold for 175$) 150$ Gladiator Bomber (Sold for 200$) <- This is the one I'm guesstimating the hardest on. I really don't remember what it cost me or what I sold it for other than that it was a decent chunk of change and I made a profit on it. 25$ Aurora LTI (4 sold for 100$ each) 80$ Hull B LTI <- Total guesswork on that one. I could look it up but I'm lazy. 40$ Some Cool Ground Speeder LTI
So using my super accurate guesswork I put 1570$ into Star Citizen buying ships with real in-game benefits.
Of course of that, I only have $645 worth of ships left and my total investment stands at -1150$ AKA 1150 profits but... well yeah. Big money gets thrown around in the Star Citizen arena.
Unfortunately the ability to make thousands on it has kind of come and gone. I was an early adopter and bought some very limited editions ships (The Idriss M and original LTI Aurora game packages) that account for the majority of my profits.
________________
Relating back to the subject at hand, some multi-thousand dollar palaces for your epeen kingdom are nothing compared to the multi-thousand dollar palaces strapped with guns you can fly around the Star Citizen universe. No comparison on the Pay-To-Win scale.
Why is there even a whole page of people discussing P2W here when nobody involved in the debate even knows anything about Crowfall EK's. lol, people complaining about shit they don't even understand
Then I guess the correct subject we should be discussing is whether or not EK's have any effect on other parts of the game. Since you seem to be the Crowfall expert, why don't you get back to us on that.
Keep wise, no, not really. The keeps just look fancy that people are buying. Eternal Kingdoms in terms of land mass and keep size (which everyone can unlock and designed for guild pulling money) do allow you to make statues to the gods that give a MINOR bonus to campaign worlds. Large EKs do offer more land to farm in to make basic gear to take with you to Worlds that allow you to take stuff. However, not every world allows you to import things. Some will be completely clean slate other than character. So no, they don't affect the real game.
Edit: To be clear about EK land size, it doesn't really matter all that much as regeneration for materials is supposedly to be fairly quick
Well, on a positive note, this is more of an indication of a game not being vaporware and they are confident enough in the fun factor of their game that someone would be willing to drop that kind of money.
From a business point of view, this creates the perception of quality.
When you have something that is more costly despite it being similar in quality to other goods, person assumes that it is of higher quality.
Hopefully this perception of quality is true for something that looks like could be good fun.
I fully believe that ArtCraft studios found the right mixture of Guild spending, player spending, and cosmetic shop stuff to be a multi-million dollar profit company.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's some serious greed.. usually leads to p2w cash shop stuff later on.
How the fuck is that greed? They have a company to run and if someone is so compelled by this that they want a cosmetic item worth 7 grand then by all means let them spend the money. After all it's the rest of us who benefit from it.
Some people have that kind of money and don't mind spending it, sounds more like you're broke and jealous.
That's some serious greed.. usually leads to p2w cash shop stuff later on.
How the fuck is that greed? They have a company to run and if someone is so compelled by this that they want a cosmetic item worth 7 grand then by all means let them spend the money. After all it's the rest of us who benefit from it.
Some people have that kind of money and don't mind spending it, sounds more like you're broke and jealous.
If that's not greed then I don't know what the hell is.
That's some serious greed.. usually leads to p2w cash shop stuff later on.
How the fuck is that greed? They have a company to run and if someone is so compelled by this that they want a cosmetic item worth 7 grand then by all means let them spend the money. After all it's the rest of us who benefit from it.
Some people have that kind of money and don't mind spending it, sounds more like you're broke and jealous.
If that's not greed then I don't know what the hell is.
Well, let's play devil's advocate.
We know there are games out there that rely upon people spending large amounts of money. I seem to remember a space game, I think Entropia Universe, was like this.
If a developer wants to create a game, a bit of entertainment, for those people who have large amounts of disposable income, then "why not"?
I mean, there are country clubs that require large amounts to join, an Uncle of mine was part of a yacht as well as a swim club which had very high dues.
We have movie theaters in the area that provide a premium experience, no kids allowed, and the tickets are $20+ or so.
Now, I'm not going to argue whether "this" game might be worth it, that's for its players to decide.
However, I see no reason why a game can't be built with monetization that allows for very extreme content for those who are willing to pay.
So why shouldn't there be a game that charges $7000 for castles? Maybe it has a small population but those people playing it get a tailored experience for their money.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I won't pretend to know more because i stopped paying attention when i noticed the game was doing it all wrong.It most certainly is a p2w design and a cash grab.Soon i saw how they didn't care about ruining the integrity of the game selling plots in some cash shop,i was like ok this game is off my radar. Once a cash shop starts,it never ends,more intrusive stuff sold until people stop,feel sick to their stomach that after investing a ton of money they wish they never went down that path.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I won't pretend to know more because i stopped paying attention when i noticed the game was doing it all wrong.It most certainly is a p2w design and a cash grab.Soon i saw how they didn't care about ruining the integrity of the game selling plots in some cash shop,i was like ok this game is off my radar. Once a cash shop starts,it never ends,more intrusive stuff sold until people stop,feel sick to their stomach that after investing a ton of money they wish they never went down that path.
That's some serious greed.. usually leads to p2w cash shop stuff later on.
How the fuck is that greed? They have a company to run and if someone is so compelled by this that they want a cosmetic item worth 7 grand then by all means let them spend the money. After all it's the rest of us who benefit from it.
Some people have that kind of money and don't mind spending it, sounds more like you're broke and jealous.
If that's not greed then I don't know what the hell is.
[mod edit]
( Whats wrong with "quote-ing" ? From here starts my comment )
[mod edit]
Ignoring the fact that a company allowing the purchase of a "castel" worth of 7k , in "favor" of "we all benefit from it" , it makes you the perfect "customer" of those kind of "dev's". You cannot simply blindly support a company which are doing this just because in theory , you love what you read/see about the game at this stage.
I will never support such companies which develops a game based on "whales" ( see Star Citizen ) . That means they will create the game around those "whales", even after the game "launches".
Post edited by Vaross on
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Look under Guild Strongholds. The most expensive one is an Imperial Castle for $7,000. That's some SotA-level shit. And if I'm not mistaken, it's not just cosmetic. Sorry, since the forum update, pressing enter does not advance me to the next line. https://crowfall.com/en/store/#store-item-detail-popup
Comments
The "Look at my giant trophy room full of golden epeens, aren't they pretty?" portion of the game is the Eternal Kingdoms.
The properties you can purchase for cash are in the Eternal Kingdoms.
In other words, nothing that happens in the Eternal Kingdoms is pay to win, because the campaigns are the only portion of the game where serious competition happens.
@genaknosc got it right when he says you guys are complaining about things you don't even understand. If you can ascribe the word "Pay to Win" to things purchased for the EK you clearly have no concept how this game works.
Well, while I think that's silly, that's really not P2W that I can think of.
I think one main thing to impress though is with all crowdfunded things if you are paying 7000$ you aren't really being delivered 7000$ in value usually. It's like when you donate to charity and they give you some kind of thank you gift for your donation.
The reason you would pay 7000$ into any crowdfunded campaign is because you believe in the product and you really want to see it succeed, to the tune of 7000$. That might seem pretty ridiculous to most people. As a college student there are a lot better things I could do with 7000$ for sure. But some people have that kind of money and really want to see these games made.
https://crowfall.com/en/news/founders-update-guild-strongholds/
Skimmed it again just to make sure
Yup I was right. Next.
tl/dr: Imperial Castles are pretty much cosmetic to the high end competitive guilds that will have them.
mmorpg.com is full of carebear rpg types who tend to wildly speculate on how rough they would have it in the PvP sandbox, overrate the difficulty of survival or rather the complexity of social networks required to excel at sandbox PvP. Eve players will thrive with a slight shift of mindset, WoW players will not.
This is taken from the FAQs:
Then there is the matter of "what is an Eternal Kingdom"?
Simply put EKs are Private Servers.
I personally don't think that anything that can be bought to pimp a Private Server make the game P2W.
No one is forced to play or even visit those Private Servers, they are purely aesthetics and serve mainly as a community hub for Guilds.
It's not like in SotA where Buildings occupy actual World space and can be seen and visited by anyone strolling along the city streets.
If you buy a $7K Palace for your EK, you don't win anything.
From a business point of view, this creates the perception of quality.
When you have something that is more costly despite it being similar in quality to other goods, person assumes that it is of higher quality.
Hopefully this perception of quality is true for something that looks like could be good fun.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
In CF, the things you buy in the store don't impact competitive play, AND they can all be created in-game (excluding certain skins/cosmetics that were given as rewards for various stuff, like the fallen colossus parcel). Functionally, there is nothing you can buy that you can't also create in-game. The amount of time and effort some of these things will take to make will be substantial, but as they provide no competitive advantage, that's not a problem. People aren't getting ahead by buying them rather than making them.
1000$ Idriss-M LTI - 50% Ownership for 500$ (Later Sold for 3800) <-100% accurate. I know those prices by heart.
400$ Anvil Carrack LTI (Still owned)
125$ Superhornet LTI x 2 (1 sold for 175$)
150$ Gladiator Bomber (Sold for 200$) <- This is the one I'm guesstimating the hardest on. I really don't remember what it cost me or what I sold it for other than that it was a decent chunk of change and I made a profit on it.
25$ Aurora LTI (4 sold for 100$ each)
80$ Hull B LTI <- Total guesswork on that one. I could look it up but I'm lazy.
40$ Some Cool Ground Speeder LTI
So using my super accurate guesswork I put 1570$ into Star Citizen buying ships with real in-game benefits.
Of course of that, I only have $645 worth of ships left and my total investment stands at -1150$ AKA 1150 profits but... well yeah. Big money gets thrown around in the Star Citizen arena.
Unfortunately the ability to make thousands on it has kind of come and gone. I was an early adopter and bought some very limited editions ships (The Idriss M and original LTI Aurora game packages) that account for the majority of my profits.
________________
Relating back to the subject at hand, some multi-thousand dollar palaces for your epeen kingdom are nothing compared to the multi-thousand dollar palaces strapped with guns you can fly around the Star Citizen universe. No comparison on the Pay-To-Win scale.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
.
Keep wise, no, not really. The keeps just look fancy that people are buying. Eternal Kingdoms in terms of land mass and keep size (which everyone can unlock and designed for guild pulling money) do allow you to make statues to the gods that give a MINOR bonus to campaign worlds. Large EKs do offer more land to farm in to make basic gear to take with you to Worlds that allow you to take stuff. However, not every world allows you to import things. Some will be completely clean slate other than character. So no, they don't affect the real game.
Edit: To be clear about EK land size, it doesn't really matter all that much as regeneration for materials is supposedly to be fairly quick
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Now really lost
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How the fuck is that greed? They have a company to run and if someone is so compelled by this that they want a cosmetic item worth 7 grand then by all means let them spend the money. After all it's the rest of us who benefit from it.
Some people have that kind of money and don't mind spending it, sounds more like you're broke and jealous.
We know there are games out there that rely upon people spending large amounts of money. I seem to remember a space game, I think Entropia Universe, was like this.
If a developer wants to create a game, a bit of entertainment, for those people who have large amounts of disposable income, then "why not"?
I mean, there are country clubs that require large amounts to join, an Uncle of mine was part of a yacht as well as a swim club which had very high dues.
We have movie theaters in the area that provide a premium experience, no kids allowed, and the tickets are $20+ or so.
Now, I'm not going to argue whether "this" game might be worth it, that's for its players to decide.
However, I see no reason why a game can't be built with monetization that allows for very extreme content for those who are willing to pay.
So why shouldn't there be a game that charges $7000 for castles? Maybe it has a small population but those people playing it get a tailored experience for their money.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Once a cash shop starts,it never ends,more intrusive stuff sold until people stop,feel sick to their stomach that after investing a ton of money they wish they never went down that path.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
( Whats wrong with "quote-ing" ? From here starts my comment )
[mod edit]
Ignoring the fact that a company allowing the purchase of a "castel" worth of 7k , in "favor" of "we all benefit from it" , it makes you the perfect "customer" of those kind of "dev's". You cannot simply blindly support a company which are doing this just because in theory , you love what you read/see about the game at this stage.
I will never support such companies which develops a game based on "whales" ( see Star Citizen ) . That means they will create the game around those "whales", even after the game "launches".
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Thats nothing... Star Citizen has that one beat.