I think the large problem with Destiny is: What kind of game is it?
Term MMO was created in a time when we didn't have dynamic server techniques like Destiny is using, and there's no established and recognized term for a game relying on that kind of servers yet.
Term MMO isn't misused for fun. It's because our language hasn't quite caught up with the change and doesn't match the reality yet.
I think it's at the point where worrying too much about term MMO is useless. We live in a changing world, and our language must evolve with that change.
In all actuality, you can reference MuDs which came out before MMOs. MuD which stands for multi user dungeon were games that could be played online with other players. In fact, I'm still playing Gemstone IV right now. Anyways, at any given point, Gemstone IV could have a few hundred up to 1200 people online. So, Gemstone IV should be labeled an MMO because it provides the MASSIVE part of an MMO. Wrong. If a game doesn't have a 3D virtual open world, it can't be an MMO. If a game doesn't have any roleplaying elements, it can't be an RPG. If a game doesn't have first person shooting in it, it can't be an FPS.
We have MMOFPS, which is Planetside 1 and 2. We have MMORPG, which is EQ, EQ2, DAoC, UO, AO, AC, SWG, WoW, FFXI and FFXIV, GW2 and so on We have MOBA, which is Overwatch and LoL We have FPS, which is BF and CoD series We have RPG, which is Witcher 3 and Skyrim
We have a plethora of game genres which do NOT fall into the category of an MMO, let alone an MMORPG. MMO by definition that you quoted from the dictionary does NOT describe Destiny 1 or 2. Destiny 2 is an FPS, its an RPG and that is it. It does not allow for open worlds filled with 1000s of players. That would make it an MMO. Sure, its played online, but it is not a massive multiplayer online game.
3d isn't a factor to mmoRPG. Massively Multiplayer was a marketing term for the amazing goal of 500 connections to the server. Strange additions to 3d or virtual world size is a perversion.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I think the large problem with Destiny is: What kind of game is it?
I doubt most gamers care. Both of my sons (and myself) play the Destiny 2 beta. The issue of proper labeling never comes up. We just care if it is fun, and whether we like certain details.
I doubt bungie/activision cares about that either. If it makes a ton of money, they won't care.
But obviously they do. As you pointed out one of these threads pops up every week or two. Usually always with a different poster starting them. Obviously there are not only a sizeable quantity of people who care about the usage of the term MMO, but a sizeable quantity of people who care enough to create topics to set the matter straight.
An MMO is played by hundreds, thousands even millions of people
Once an MMO only has a tiny playerbase playing it (like Istaria/Horizons, that MMO with a playable dragon), that is no longer massive. There is definitely nothing massive about 50 or less players playing an MMO. I've played on Minecraft servers with far more people than that lol.
At that point it doesn't matter if the server can hold one billion players or just 50 players, when an MMO only has a tiny amount of players playing that is not massive. There is nothing massively multiplayer about 50 (or less) players on an MMO.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
For me, an MMO(RPG) is a whole virtual, online world /galaxy to explore, filled with npcs and many other players. Where i can be / become whatever or whoever i want and where im not forced to do anything i dont want to.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
An MMO is played by hundreds, thousands even millions of people
Once an MMO only has a tiny playerbase playing it (like Istaria/Horizons, that MMO with a playable dragon), that is no longer massive. There is definitely nothing massive about 50 or less players playing an MMO. I've played on Minecraft servers with far more people than that lol.
At that point it doesn't matter if the server can hold one billion players or just 50 players, when an MMO only has a tiny amount of players playing that is not massive. There is nothing massively multiplayer about 50 (or less) players on an MMO.
We don't define video game genres by how popular they are.
But obviously they do. As you pointed out one of these threads pops up every week or two. Usually always with a different poster starting them. Obviously there are not only a sizeable quantity of people who care about the usage of the term MMO, but a sizeable quantity of people who care enough to create topics to set the matter straight.
The person you're attempting to convince of that logic is perhaps the most invested in the topic, quite honestly. So, while I certainly agree with your logic, don't expect him to admit to recognizing it.
An MMO is played by hundreds, thousands even millions of people
Once an MMO only has a tiny playerbase playing it (like Istaria/Horizons, that MMO with a playable dragon), that is no longer massive. There is definitely nothing massive about 50 or less players playing an MMO. I've played on Minecraft servers with far more people than that lol.
At that point it doesn't matter if the server can hold one billion players or just 50 players, when an MMO only has a tiny amount of players playing that is not massive. There is nothing massively multiplayer about 50 (or less) players on an MMO.
It was never supposed to be massive it was supposed to be massively multiplayer. How many people actually play it today is irrelevant if it has the potential to be massively multiplayer. If it's an MMO it's still an MMO when the servers are down for maintenance.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
We don't define video game genres by how popular they are.
So if only 5 people show up to a "proper" MMO, it is still a "massively multiplayer" game when all you get to interact with is 5?
hmm .. for a person who cares so much about logic, there is something missing here.
Yeah of course it is. MMO describes the game design and genre not its popularity or population... speaking of logic.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
We don't define video game genres by how popular they are.
So if only 5 people show up to a "proper" MMO, it is still a "massively multiplayer" game when all you get to interact with is 5?
hmm .. for a person who cares so much about logic, there is something missing here.
Yeah, I don't get that argument.
There is nothing massively multiplayer about an MMO that (and Istaria actually gets that low on off-times) only has 5-10 people playing. How is that massive? and how is that massively multiplayer? Often times those people won't say anything either, so its literally a singleplayer game at that point that happens to be able to hold more players but no one is playing it lol.
To me, I don't care if a server can hold 1 billion people, or 1000 people...if only 5-50 people are playing it, why does it matter if it can hold 1 billion people or even 1000 people if no one is playing it? That isn't massive, the only thing massive about that would be the server size lol.
Definitely not very logical
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Yeah of course it is. MMO describes the game design and genre not its popularity or population... speaking of logic.
So if a game has the potential to have massively MP gameplay, but actually it does not in reality, it is fine?
Well, no wonder most gamers don't care about the label of MMO. They are actually looking for fun, and what actually happens, not some hypothetical scenarios in the sky. But again, it is not like people on this site agree on what a MMO is anyway.
Destiny do have 16 as max players, is that right? (don't play myself so it could be more or less).
Is 16 a very large number of players?
Every bloody FPS game today have that many or more so I would say it is average, not very large.
Therefore is Destiny not a MMO and neither is Diablo 3. Any FPS game with 128 players on the other hand do qualify since that is indeed a very large number, like Joint Ops.
Except the first M in MMO is not Massive, its Massively, there is a very significant difference.
Whatever, you get basically the same definition: b. Large in comparison with the usual amount: a massive dose of a drug. (from free dictionary).
So how is 16 players large compared to the usual amount of players in an online game? It is not.
Yeah of course it is. MMO describes the game design and genre not its popularity or population... speaking of logic.
So if a game has the potential to have massively MP gameplay, but actually it does not in reality, it is fine?
IDK whether it's fine or not or give much of a shit about that irrelevancy. A game is what it is depending on how it's built not on who or how many play it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
We don't define video game genres by how popular they are.
So if only 5 people show up to a "proper" MMO, it is still a "massively multiplayer" game when all you get to interact with is 5?
hmm .. for a person who cares so much about logic, there is something missing here.
We categorize games by how they could be played, not by how they are played at the moment.
It's the logical thing to do because otherwise I couldn't tell you what genre Doom is without first verifying that there's someone playing it at this moment.
Destiny do have 16 as max players, is that right? (don't play myself so it could be more or less).
Is 16 a very large number of players?
Every bloody FPS game today have that many or more so I would say it is average, not very large.
Therefore is Destiny not a MMO and neither is Diablo 3. Any FPS game with 128 players on the other hand do qualify since that is indeed a very large number, like Joint Ops.
Destiny has way more than 16 players on at a time. Are you thinking of GTA Online?
Also I dont agree that its Size.. its the experience. That's like saying "Smartphones arent computers because they are small enough to fit in a pocket.. a computer needs a big screen and a keyboard to be a computer"..
A smartphone is a computer because it does the exact same thing a PC does just in a different way. It has to be defined at least as a TYPE of computer.
Destiny is a MMO because it does the exact same thing as other mmos just in a different way. Its a FPS.. YES it is. Its online YES. Its not the same as COD as other are eluding to.. COD is a single player game with a battle royal style pvp mode with different maps. Destiny is a online world. The entire experience is online with friends. There is no single player or multiplayer option when you load it up.
To me its a MMO because it allows me to play with any of my friends, MEET NEW PEOPLE..while we are doing raids, dailies, dungeons, loot hunts, heroics.. etc. Its not the traditional MMO no I agree with you, but it is still a MMO.. again its the Smartphone vs PC thing.
People have to stop resisting change that is why the mmo market as a whole is in the shape it is in now. People want new things but when they get it, they resist and cry about the "Old Ways"
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Destiny do have 16 as max players, is that right? (don't play myself so it could be more or less).
Is 16 a very large number of players?
Every bloody FPS game today have that many or more so I would say it is average, not very large.
Therefore is Destiny not a MMO and neither is Diablo 3. Any FPS game with 128 players on the other hand do qualify since that is indeed a very large number, like Joint Ops.
Destiny has way more than 16 players on at a time. Are you thinking of GTA Online?
And there are probably thousand of players online right now playing chess. Chess still isn't an MMORPG.
Yeah of course it is. MMO describes the game design and genre not its popularity or population... speaking of logic.
So if a game has the potential to have massively MP gameplay, but actually it does not in reality, it is fine?
IDK whether it's fine or not or give much of a shit about that irrelevancy. A game is what it is depending on how it's built not on who or how many play it.
This is one of those situations where both of you are right.
MMO by design - Iselin is correct
MMO in actually having enough playerbase to function as a MMO - Narius is right
Except we base genre classifications on game design, not popularity. There's no "pop" genre in video games.
I remember growing up multiplayer usually meant 2-4. When MMOs came around they were a couple thousand people on which is why it went for the massively tag in front of the multiplayer. Was not hard to figure out which was which. Now we have more hybrid games which aren't really standard multiplayer or massive either. New category is needed, that is all.
Destiny do have 16 as max players, is that right? (don't play myself so it could be more or less).
Is 16 a very large number of players?
Every bloody FPS game today have that many or more so I would say it is average, not very large.
Therefore is Destiny not a MMO and neither is Diablo 3. Any FPS game with 128 players on the other hand do qualify since that is indeed a very large number, like Joint Ops.
Destiny has way more than 16 players on at a time. Are you thinking of GTA Online?
And there are probably thousand of players online right now playing chess. Chess still isn't an MMORPG.
does this hypothetical chess game have a world with background and lore for your avatar to explore with other people's Avatars?? If so then yes the hell it is a MMORPG.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I've got to agree with MadFrenchie in that with the term MMO it's referring to what the game is designed to handle vs what is actually there. Most MMOs that fail at being MMOs don't generally last very long.
I've got to agree with MadFrenchie in that with the term MMO it's referring to what the game is designed to handle vs what is actually there. Most MMOs that fail at being MMOs don't generally last very long.
Exactly right , Its what its designed to be ..
Silly at best to think ...
A Car is not a car if noone is driving .. A Book is not a book if noone is reading it ...
Comments
Term MMO was created in a time when we didn't have dynamic server techniques like Destiny is using, and there's no established and recognized term for a game relying on that kind of servers yet.
Term MMO isn't misused for fun. It's because our language hasn't quite caught up with the change and doesn't match the reality yet.
I think it's at the point where worrying too much about term MMO is useless. We live in a changing world, and our language must evolve with that change.
3d isn't a factor to mmoRPG. Massively Multiplayer was a marketing term for the amazing goal of 500 connections to the server. Strange additions to 3d or virtual world size is a perversion.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I doubt bungie/activision cares about that either. If it makes a ton of money, they won't care.
Once an MMO only has a tiny playerbase playing it (like Istaria/Horizons, that MMO with a playable dragon), that is no longer massive. There is definitely nothing massive about 50 or less players playing an MMO. I've played on Minecraft servers with far more people than that lol.
At that point it doesn't matter if the server can hold one billion players or just 50 players, when an MMO only has a tiny amount of players playing that is not massive. There is nothing massively multiplayer about 50 (or less) players on an MMO.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Where i can be / become whatever or whoever i want and where im not forced to do anything i dont want to.
- Albert Einstein
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
hmm .. for a person who cares so much about logic, there is something missing here.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There is nothing massively multiplayer about an MMO that (and Istaria actually gets that low on off-times) only has 5-10 people playing. How is that massive? and how is that massively multiplayer? Often times those people won't say anything either, so its literally a singleplayer game at that point that happens to be able to hold more players but no one is playing it lol.
To me, I don't care if a server can hold 1 billion people, or 1000 people...if only 5-50 people are playing it, why does it matter if it can hold 1 billion people or even 1000 people if no one is playing it? That isn't massive, the only thing massive about that would be the server size lol.
Definitely not very logical
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Well, no wonder most gamers don't care about the label of MMO. They are actually looking for fun, and what actually happens, not some hypothetical scenarios in the sky. But again, it is not like people on this site agree on what a MMO is anyway.
b. Large in comparison with the usual amount: a massive dose of a drug. (from free dictionary).
So how is 16 players large compared to the usual amount of players in an online game? It is not.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It's the logical thing to do because otherwise I couldn't tell you what genre Doom is without first verifying that there's someone playing it at this moment.
Also I dont agree that its Size.. its the experience. That's like saying "Smartphones arent computers because they are small enough to fit in a pocket.. a computer needs a big screen and a keyboard to be a computer"..
A smartphone is a computer because it does the exact same thing a PC does just in a different way. It has to be defined at least as a TYPE of computer.
Destiny is a MMO because it does the exact same thing as other mmos just in a different way. Its a FPS.. YES it is. Its online YES. Its not the same as COD as other are eluding to.. COD is a single player game with a battle royal style pvp mode with different maps. Destiny is a online world. The entire experience is online with friends. There is no single player or multiplayer option when you load it up.
To me its a MMO because it allows me to play with any of my friends, MEET NEW PEOPLE..while we are doing raids, dailies, dungeons, loot hunts, heroics.. etc. Its not the traditional MMO no I agree with you, but it is still a MMO.. again its the Smartphone vs PC thing.
People have to stop resisting change that is why the mmo market as a whole is in the shape it is in now. People want new things but when they get it, they resist and cry about the "Old Ways"
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Silly at best to think ...
A Car is not a car if noone is driving ..
A Book is not a book if noone is reading it ...
Etc...
silly semantics....weak