Its really about how you decide to play. Its tough if you need/want to do group content. But if you solo you can play how you want. In group content its all about rushing through the game content today. The only way to take your time now is solo.
Think this really hits the mark in a lot of games today. Just think how often you get into a group in a game now where if it is your first time doing something people complain because you don't know the fights already. I am sorry but learning them myself and not watching others do it or read about it before going in is part of the fun for me. Hell look at WoW for example now, it is about how fast you can complete content in instances and raids now that gets the best rewards. Even finding guilds that take their time can be a really hard thing today, if you don't have real live friends to play with you are pretty much at the will of everyone else in gaming today.
As far as good journey for me it was ESO, I enjoy the stories unlike some. I find every side quest I can in an area before I move on. I look for every little hidden thing in a zone. That is what I consider a good thing and fun. The only problem is there is a huge power gap for someone who is above 600 cp and someone who is not. Some don't like the combat but works fine for me.
There are many factors at work that have resulted in an apparently end-game focused world.
1) Vertical Progression (aka stat gaps)
This, in my opinion, is the single greatest issue with the MMORPG genre. The longer you play, the more powerful you become. This makes old content obsolete, it makes balancing content next to impossible because of the extreme range of power that players may have. Content is therefore balanced around the lowest common denominator, resulting in extremely boring content for anyone half-decent.
2) Finding Groups
Finding groups is easy if you are leveling with the pack (i.e. at release). At all other times, finding a group can be hard. If the group content is required then finding groups becomes a barrier to progression, therefore devs have removed group content or made it completely optional. The result is basically nobody groups up whilst leveling, so it's even more boring than before.
3) Law of diminishing returns
When I was young, I thought the storylines were great. I'm now 32, having been reading novels since I was 5 and played endless amounts of RPGs. I can no longer be impressed with storylines. LOTRO was the last MMO I played that had half-way decent storylines, but they went downhill rapidly after first expansion. SW:TOR was shockingly bad, I've no idea why people love it for the story? 95% of the story was rehashed generic shite, the other 5% was OK, but nothing special.
4) Suspension of disbelief
Massively-multiplayer.....that is the environment we're playing in. So why do most MMOs make you the hero, the ultimate special snowflake that saves the world/universe? The journey is completely at odds with the rest of the game, creating a really jarring experience.
5) Social Factors
Gaming is big business with a massive market. No longer just for geeks, it is for everyone. This means game design has had to change - everything has been dumbed down for the masses, there is now a constant trickle of rewards to stimulate the pleasure centres of our brains to keep us addicted.
All these things combine to make the journey a boring, tedious waste of time. As someone else said, it's just an extended tutorial. Endgame is usually the first opportunity to find challenging, engaging content. Endgame is the best place to group up with friends. Endgame is where gear progression actually starts to mean something. Endgame is also the only time where stories start to connect personally, because it takes a lot of personal effort to overcome endgame challenges which makes you feel more proud about accomplishing something.
That said, these are just some reasons why I, personally, hate the journey. If you look at the stats released by MMO devs, I think you'll find that the journey is still the most important feature for the majority of players. Typical stats show only about 10-15% of players participate in endgame pve, and only 10-20% participate in PvP. The overwhelming majority of players are casual soloers - they create a toon, level up, then start again or move on.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Yes: Project 99... Old-school EQ that makes getting out of the place your character firsts lands to somewhere useful... Paineel anyone? Now THAT is a journey...
I personally think that games designed to leave 90% of their huge and well crafted world empty of players because the content is obsolete past a specific level use an outdated bad design from the past.
The solution is simple. Don't make a huge world. Just have instanced dungeons like Diablo, or Warframe.
Most end-game gameplay is instanced anyway. May as well focus on making that great.
Space Station 13. That game is 100% journey, since the game lasts in rounds and any given round can be 15 minutes or 2 hours.
No leveling. No stats. No skills. You just start as who you are, doing the job you do... and watching paranoia and chaos ensue at its own, inevitable pace.
If there's a challenge involved, it's with learning the game mechanics and GUI. Definitely need to watch some playthrough videos before stepping into that game!
The journey is always more important than the destination. For some people the journey start at max level.
The leveling phase is more like extended tutorial.
I think this is very true actually. The entire levelling proces is one big tutorial and once finished, the real game starts. Most MMOs have a massive disconnect between levelling and endgame. First you were doing quests and exploring places on your own or with a small group, suddenly you are grinding tokens in a massive raid or scraping enough faction together to get Random Loot in Random Slot +1.
Its a situation where you can't win. Those that enjoy the levelling part will likely quit when they reach endgame, and those that want endgame, grind through the levelling phase or quit before they're finished. In my ideal MMO ALL content contributes to the whole, everything is endgame. I wouldn't mind a small tutorial where a character reaches, say, level 5. But from that point on everyone is level 5 and the game starts. The tutorial would let you pick race, class, looks while playing and introduce you to various options of playing like quersts, hunts, exploring, grouping and PVP. Once introduced to all features the game has to offer it would be goodbye levels and traning weels and good luck out there! The tutorial should be a 2 to 3 hours process max. But thats just me rambling. /Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I personally think that games designed to leave 90% of their huge and well crafted world empty of players because the content is obsolete past a specific level use an outdated bad design from the past.
The solution is simple. Don't make a huge world. Just have instanced dungeons like Diablo, or Warframe.
Most end-game gameplay is instanced anyway. May as well focus on making that great.
I'm just glad there are still developers these days willing to go beyond that.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Even Destiny 2 spent a lot of effort to make world zones big and even the main hub feel expansive. If they built up traditional social in the game then it would be much harder to distinguish from an actual mmo.
Right ... big zones = virtual persistent world? I guess Destiny 2 is a MMO then .. at least this stie agress.
Definitely. I actually play ESO, GW2 and BDO but also Elite Dangerous, Conan and Overwatch.
I would never call the last two MMORPGs, unless I wanted to troll a bit of course... And I have way more time played on the first three than on the last three, because I still prefer the classic fantasy MMORPG genre. Elite Dangerous though is definitely a MMO, even more now with planetary landing and exploration.
Are you accusing the site op here trolling? Overwatch is classified as MMOG on the game list here.
Definitely. I actually play ESO, GW2 and BDO but also Elite Dangerous, Conan and Overwatch.
I would never call the last two MMORPGs, unless I wanted to troll a bit of course... And I have way more time played on the first three than on the last three, because I still prefer the classic fantasy MMORPG genre. Elite Dangerous though is definitely a MMO, even more now with planetary landing and exploration.
Are you accusing the site op here trolling? Overwatch is classified as MMOG on the game list here.
Stand for Minimally Multiplayer Online game, so is accurate.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Definitely. I actually play ESO, GW2 and BDO but also Elite Dangerous, Conan and Overwatch.
I would never call the last two MMORPGs, unless I wanted to troll a bit of course... And I have way more time played on the first three than on the last three, because I still prefer the classic fantasy MMORPG genre. Elite Dangerous though is definitely a MMO, even more now with planetary landing and exploration.
Are you accusing the site op here trolling? Overwatch is classified as MMOG on the game list here.
Stand for Minimally Multiplayer Online game, so is accurate.
Great to know. Now i will have your blessing to call Overwatch a MMO (short for MMOG) in this forum.
MMO : the guild wars games , you will enjoy the ride and its not hard at all to get to max level. not online : any of the golden era of bioware games , i personaly loved the old kotor and kotor II.
Definitely. I actually play ESO, GW2 and BDO but also Elite Dangerous, Conan and Overwatch.
I would never call the last two MMORPGs, unless I wanted to troll a bit of course... And I have way more time played on the first three than on the last three, because I still prefer the classic fantasy MMORPG genre. Elite Dangerous though is definitely a MMO, even more now with planetary landing and exploration.
Are you accusing the site op here trolling? Overwatch is classified as MMOG on the game list here.
Stand for Minimally Multiplayer Online game, so is accurate.
Great to know. Now i will have your blessing to call Overwatch a MMO (short for MMOG) in this forum.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Definitely. I actually play ESO, GW2 and BDO but also Elite Dangerous, Conan and Overwatch.
I would never call the last two MMORPGs, unless I wanted to troll a bit of course... And I have way more time played on the first three than on the last three, because I still prefer the classic fantasy MMORPG genre. Elite Dangerous though is definitely a MMO, even more now with planetary landing and exploration.
Are you accusing the site op here trolling? Overwatch is classified as MMOG on the game list here.
Stand for Minimally Multiplayer Online game, so is accurate.
Great to know. Now i will have your blessing to call Overwatch a MMO (short for MMOG) in this forum.
Comments
Oh wait....
As far as good journey for me it was ESO, I enjoy the stories unlike some. I find every side quest I can in an area before I move on. I look for every little hidden thing in a zone. That is what I consider a good thing and fun. The only problem is there is a huge power gap for someone who is above 600 cp and someone who is not. Some don't like the combat but works fine for me.
1) Vertical Progression (aka stat gaps)
This, in my opinion, is the single greatest issue with the MMORPG genre. The longer you play, the more powerful you become. This makes old content obsolete, it makes balancing content next to impossible because of the extreme range of power that players may have. Content is therefore balanced around the lowest common denominator, resulting in extremely boring content for anyone half-decent.
2) Finding Groups
Finding groups is easy if you are leveling with the pack (i.e. at release). At all other times, finding a group can be hard. If the group content is required then finding groups becomes a barrier to progression, therefore devs have removed group content or made it completely optional. The result is basically nobody groups up whilst leveling, so it's even more boring than before.
3) Law of diminishing returns
When I was young, I thought the storylines were great. I'm now 32, having been reading novels since I was 5 and played endless amounts of RPGs. I can no longer be impressed with storylines. LOTRO was the last MMO I played that had half-way decent storylines, but they went downhill rapidly after first expansion. SW:TOR was shockingly bad, I've no idea why people love it for the story? 95% of the story was rehashed generic shite, the other 5% was OK, but nothing special.
4) Suspension of disbelief
Massively-multiplayer.....that is the environment we're playing in. So why do most MMOs make you the hero, the ultimate special snowflake that saves the world/universe? The journey is completely at odds with the rest of the game, creating a really jarring experience.
5) Social Factors
Gaming is big business with a massive market. No longer just for geeks, it is for everyone. This means game design has had to change - everything has been dumbed down for the masses, there is now a constant trickle of rewards to stimulate the pleasure centres of our brains to keep us addicted.
All these things combine to make the journey a boring, tedious waste of time. As someone else said, it's just an extended tutorial. Endgame is usually the first opportunity to find challenging, engaging content. Endgame is the best place to group up with friends. Endgame is where gear progression actually starts to mean something. Endgame is also the only time where stories start to connect personally, because it takes a lot of personal effort to overcome endgame challenges which makes you feel more proud about accomplishing something.
That said, these are just some reasons why I, personally, hate the journey. If you look at the stats released by MMO devs, I think you'll find that the journey is still the most important feature for the majority of players. Typical stats show only about 10-15% of players participate in endgame pve, and only 10-20% participate in PvP. The overwhelming majority of players are casual soloers - they create a toon, level up, then start again or move on.
Most end-game gameplay is instanced anyway. May as well focus on making that great.
No leveling. No stats. No skills. You just start as who you are, doing the job you do... and watching paranoia and chaos ensue at its own, inevitable pace.
If there's a challenge involved, it's with learning the game mechanics and GUI. Definitely need to watch some playthrough videos before stepping into that game!
Its a situation where you can't win. Those that enjoy the levelling part will likely quit when they reach endgame, and those that want endgame, grind through the levelling phase or quit before they're finished.
In my ideal MMO ALL content contributes to the whole, everything is endgame. I wouldn't mind a small tutorial where a character reaches, say, level 5. But from that point on everyone is level 5 and the game starts. The tutorial would let you pick race, class, looks while playing and introduce you to various options of playing like quersts, hunts, exploring, grouping and PVP. Once introduced to all features the game has to offer it would be goodbye levels and traning weels and good luck out there! The tutorial should be a 2 to 3 hours process max. But thats just me rambling.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
GW1 had raid-style content as standard quests and story progression.
Are you accusing the site op here trolling? Overwatch is classified as MMOG on the game list here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
not online : any of the golden era of bioware games , i personaly loved the old kotor and kotor II.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon