Here's how it is: MMOs are too expensive to make. HOWEVER it seemed lucrative for Triple A companies to cash in anyway on the market as long as they can run a large false marketing campaign that everyone would like that's a cheaper, smaller, easer, solo experience game. Something their investors would except. Lets not forget bankruptcy is always a good option (see Donald Trumps business tactics).
The vision WAS promising........ Focusing on Blizzards World of Warcraft, they researched the current market at the time and found mmos other than WoW were somewhat crude. Some moderately successful but crude none the less, there was room for a huge cash cow. The only hindrance was up front money, super millions but on a video game ?....... Investors could understand a new automobile manufacture Like Hyundai or KIA, but selling the idea of a video game was suicide unless the promise of major cut backs. Remember, Blizzards success was the only thing keeping investors interested at any level. Developers and Marketers had to work in tandem with cheaper, smaller, easer, solo to keep cost down, yet fun and interesting with good advertisement. They had the Law on their side. They knew how to play the fine line between false advertisement and simply leaving out the oblivious short comings.
Make the game appear exciting before release, capture the audience with intrigue. After all "up front box sales is everything", this is where we get our money back and more. This along with Blizzards $15 a month style of charging.
Triple A investors don't care about consumers at all. However, they do care about their reputation. Fresh ideas have to make up for lack of high cost. Give them something fun too !
"give them something fun too "...... Is a key that worked on all of us for several years. Dynamic events, destructible worlds, story modes, the list goes on. But we can all admit it was temporary, something was always lacking. They were not mmos anymore, they were games online. It had to be that way to keep cost down, this was an absolute !
To build a traditional mmo the world had to be huge if natural occurrences were to come into play. Spreading natural would require large land mass if it were to be believable. Far off lands to be with friends and their situations became too costly. Tight small worlds full of puzzles and mini games were more viable. And again, it worked for awhile.
It seems that shiny lost it's luster, where as a living breathing world would last forever !!!!!..... We now have Asian cash shops, Triple A is no more.
Let's hope smaller developers with passion can give us our dream back.
Dude I do not know how many times I have to tell you. You leaving off the the RPG of MMORPG is part of the problem.
You want an mmoRPG say that. You keep yelling for mmos guess what they will continue to build with out a concern for the Role Playing Game aspect.
My best bet would be to stop using AD&D as a model for MMOs and look on other successful roleplaying games like Vampire, Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu and other P&P games for ideas how to make new mechanics and at least depend less on quests then most MMOs do today.
I'm not sure if that's a good idea, p'n'p players and MMORPG players are usually seek different things (except a handful of weirdos like me ). Don't believe me, look at the market... I could recite only 2 (or 2 and a half) games based on p'n'p rulebooks, and not surprisingly the faintest the connection, the larger is the playerbase - and even the 0.5 isn't that very popular...
-CO and the Champions 6th ed. rulebook, adaptation is fairly true to the book, and has only a small, but at least tight-knit and loyal playerbase; -DDO and the mixed 3rd / 3.5 ed. rulebook, not very close to the books but still you can see the p'n'p version's imprint on the game, larger playerbase than CO; -Neverwinter and 4th ed rulebook, very loose adaptation, mostly just some mild touches on a generic action combat game, larger playerbase than DDO (but still couldn't list it next to the big dogs of the market)
Personally I play them in that order (like CO the most from those 3, then DDO, and I just rarely play Neverwinter) But I'm sure for most players a game based on a p'n'p ruleset would be too slow or clunky, in the era of heavy action and no brainwork... (and yep I know p'n'p tries to adapt to those youngsters and "speeding up" their games, that's why I prefer still the good old AD&D (2nd too) )
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
It seems that shiny lost it's luster, where as a living breathing world would last forever !!!!!..... We now have Asian cash shops, Triple A is no more.
Let's hope smaller developers with passion can give us our dream back.
who are "us"?
A game last forever? I wouldn't bother when there are so many to play. There are plenty of AAA games .. Destiny 2 will be fun for a while.
This current time in gaming sure does feel dirty like that one weekend bingeing on ______.
If the corporate greed continues that keeps putting the payment model before game quality I'm not sure if there will even be an MMORPG genre in 10 years and all "MMO's" will be like Destiny 2 but with 1/3 the content.
You can just do the same thing so long unless you are EA Sports...
I don't think MMOs are done but the Wow model is.
The idea that you put the player in a large explorable world with many other players and add a pinch of pen and paper roleplaying to it is still solid and I think we eventually will see a comeback for western AAA MMOs.
But almost all AAA devs tend to borrow the majority of their ideas from others and until someone figured out a new good way of accomplishing that it will be slim pickings.
The super quest heavy, gear based, trinity combat based MMO is fading. The majority of players have tired of it. Of course it might make a comeback eventually cateering to nostalgic people and new players but that is at least 10 years away.
Luckily there are other ways to make a MMORPG and if someone cal pull a good one off the AAA games would be back fast.
My best bet would be to stop using AD&D as a model for MMOs and look on other successful roleplaying games like Vampire, Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu and other P&P games for ideas how to make new mechanics and at least depend less on quests then most MMOs do today.
Maybe adding more RPG elements then just combat as well, for instance would a MMO that borrowed ideas from the "thief" games be rather refreshing and so would having court intrigues , spying and a bit of sandbox mechanics.
I am working on a new pen and paper campaign at the moment where the players will be Barons sworn to a king. They will build and manage their own realms, interact with other nobles and their realm, create armies and lead them into battle with tactics against other realms and maybe other Barons from their own kingdom and so on... Something like that would be fun as a MMO, it is 50% sandbox and 50% themepark.
The possibilities for MMOs are almost limitless but we seen very little of that since 2004, almost 100% of the AAA MMOs have been the same reskinned game. Sooner or later will someone competent change that.
You get an Awesome just for the mention of Shadowrun It's been ages since I've seen anyone make an honest, full attempt at a Shadowrun game and for those who have never played it, they have no idea what they're missing!
You'd think an industry filled with a bunch of tech-savvy, computer geek gamers, who have all probably read Neuromancer a dozen times each, would have jumped on the Shadowrun franchise years ago!
And for the newer gamers who haven't seen "Johnny Mnemonic", there's always "The Matrix" franchise to tap into.
My best bet would be to stop using AD&D as a model for MMOs and look on other successful roleplaying games like Vampire, Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu and other P&P games for ideas how to make new mechanics and at least depend less on quests then most MMOs do today.
I'm not sure if that's a good idea, p'n'p players and MMORPG players are usually seek different things (except a handful of weirdos like me ). Don't believe me, look at the market... I could recite only 2 (or 2 and a half) games based on p'n'p rulebooks, and not surprisingly the faintest the connection, the larger is the playerbase - and even the 0.5 isn't that very popular...
-CO and the Champions 6th ed. rulebook, adaptation is fairly true to the book, and has only a small, but at least tight-knit and loyal playerbase; -DDO and the mixed 3rd / 3.5 ed. rulebook, not very close to the books but still you can see the p'n'p version's imprint on the game, larger playerbase than CO; -Neverwinter and 4th ed rulebook, very loose adaptation, mostly just some mild touches on a generic action combat game, larger playerbase than DDO (but still couldn't list it next to the big dogs of the market)
Personally I play them in that order (like CO the most from those 3, then DDO, and I just rarely play Neverwinter) But I'm sure for most players a game based on a p'n'p ruleset would be too slow or clunky, in the era of heavy action and no brainwork... (and yep I know p'n'p tries to adapt to those youngsters and "speeding up" their games, that's why I prefer still the good old AD&D (2nd too) )
Almost all MMOs still have a lot of D&D in them. their attributes and level mechanics tend to be the most blatant ones.
Ever played something like Runequest or Warhammer fantasy RPG? They are both fantasy games and uses very different mechanics. D&D is actually closer to most MMOs then any of them, far more closer.
While most roleplayers I know also plays MMOs the opposite isn't true but that doesn't mean that the mechanics and ideas from pen and paper games can't be successfully implemented into the genre (like so many of them were implemented (with some modifications) in M59 and EQ back into the 90s.
Many of those P&P games have tried mechanics that would be easy to translate and would give the genre some fresh ideas no matter if you played P&P games or not. You can of course invent new mechanics from scratch instead but that is far harder and at least looking on how different P&P games solved things will show you different solutions for the same issues.
There are some base needs a MMO have to fill to be successful but MMOs have basically used the same solutions older games already used for a long time and eventually people tire of that.
Take quests for an instance. The need they fill is basically to give you something to do together with telling you a little story along with it. Dynamic events and public quests fills the exact same needs. I believe most MMO players have the need for something like it and as a dev you should consider other ways to fill that need that would be equally or more fun.
Now take progression. The standard MMO way of progression is the same as D&Ds. First you progress with XP and levels. You get XP for killing stuff among other things and when you get enough you level up which will give you more hitpoints, improves your stats/skills and give you access to better gear. Once you can't level more you progress by getting better and better magical equipment.
A game like Shadowrun works very differently. You do get Karma for completing runs (which in MMO term would be more like a dungeon or storyline then a quest). You will not get more hitpoint (Shadowrun don't even have hitpoints) and there is no levels but you can buy upgrades for the karma. While you can get some gear improvments (mainly cybernetics and magical focus) that is not very important. Fame is usually more important then money/gear and while there are limits on specific skills and attributes (and the last points gets very expensive) you don't stop improving your character as you play.
Warhammer use and even weirder system where you switch class when you completed one...
My point anyways is that MMOs done exactly the same thing for a long time, and most of those things are all comming from the same source which is D&D. Looking on how other P&P games solved the same issues is helpful if you plan to try something new and think we need something new now, we needed something new years ago...
You get an Awesome just for the mention of Shadowrun It's been ages since I've seen anyone make an honest, full attempt at a Shadowrun game and for those who have never played it, they have no idea what they're missing!
You'd think an industry filled with a bunch of tech-savvy, computer geek gamers, who have all probably read Neuromancer a dozen times each, would have jumped on the Shadowrun franchise years ago!
And for the newer gamers who haven't seen "Johnny Mnemonic", there's always "The Matrix" franchise to tap into.
I think Bladerunner probably would be more inspiring for most people .
But the interesting thing with Shadowrun is that it is a fantasy games as well as a cyberpunk one and we know that MMO fans love fantasy. It is a very different take from other fantasy MMO but you can still play your elf thief, but maybe with a bit of cybernetics as well.
Personally though am I more interested in the mechanices in this case, and the fact that I think 'runs would work excellent in MMOs. It is not unlike running dungeons but with a gathering information and planning stage before you start it.
This current time in gaming sure does feel dirty like that one weekend bingeing on ______.
If the corporate greed continues that keeps putting the payment model before game quality I'm not sure if there will even be an MMORPG genre in 10 years and all "MMO's" will be like Destiny 2 but with 1/3 the content.
Sounds fun. I wouldn't mind playing 1/3 of content at bargain prices, or for free.
Comments
You want an mmoRPG say that. You keep yelling for mmos guess what they will continue to build with out a concern for the Role Playing Game aspect.
Don't believe me, look at the market... I could recite only 2 (or 2 and a half) games based on p'n'p rulebooks, and not surprisingly the faintest the connection, the larger is the playerbase - and even the 0.5 isn't that very popular...
-CO and the Champions 6th ed. rulebook, adaptation is fairly true to the book, and has only a small, but at least tight-knit and loyal playerbase;
-DDO and the mixed 3rd / 3.5 ed. rulebook, not very close to the books but still you can see the p'n'p version's imprint on the game, larger playerbase than CO;
-Neverwinter and 4th ed rulebook, very loose adaptation, mostly just some mild touches on a generic action combat game, larger playerbase than DDO (but still couldn't list it next to the big dogs of the market)
Personally I play them in that order
(and yep I know p'n'p tries to adapt to those youngsters and "speeding up" their games, that's why I prefer still the good old AD&D (2nd too)
How do you prepare the cats?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I, for some reason, think of this:
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
A game last forever? I wouldn't bother when there are so many to play. There are plenty of AAA games .. Destiny 2 will be fun for a while.
If the corporate greed continues that keeps putting the payment model before game quality I'm not sure if there will even be an MMORPG genre in 10 years and all "MMO's" will be like Destiny 2 but with 1/3 the content.
You get an Awesome just for the mention of Shadowrun
It's been ages since I've seen anyone make an honest, full attempt at a Shadowrun game and for those who have never played it, they have no idea what they're missing!
You'd think an industry filled with a bunch of tech-savvy, computer geek gamers, who have all probably read Neuromancer a dozen times each, would have jumped on the Shadowrun franchise years ago!
And for the newer gamers who haven't seen "Johnny Mnemonic", there's always "The Matrix" franchise to tap into.
Ever played something like Runequest or Warhammer fantasy RPG? They are both fantasy games and uses very different mechanics. D&D is actually closer to most MMOs then any of them, far more closer.
While most roleplayers I know also plays MMOs the opposite isn't true but that doesn't mean that the mechanics and ideas from pen and paper games can't be successfully implemented into the genre (like so many of them were implemented (with some modifications) in M59 and EQ back into the 90s.
Many of those P&P games have tried mechanics that would be easy to translate and would give the genre some fresh ideas no matter if you played P&P games or not. You can of course invent new mechanics from scratch instead but that is far harder and at least looking on how different P&P games solved things will show you different solutions for the same issues.
There are some base needs a MMO have to fill to be successful but MMOs have basically used the same solutions older games already used for a long time and eventually people tire of that.
Take quests for an instance. The need they fill is basically to give you something to do together with telling you a little story along with it. Dynamic events and public quests fills the exact same needs. I believe most MMO players have the need for something like it and as a dev you should consider other ways to fill that need that would be equally or more fun.
Now take progression. The standard MMO way of progression is the same as D&Ds. First you progress with XP and levels. You get XP for killing stuff among other things and when you get enough you level up which will give you more hitpoints, improves your stats/skills and give you access to better gear. Once you can't level more you progress by getting better and better magical equipment.
A game like Shadowrun works very differently. You do get Karma for completing runs (which in MMO term would be more like a dungeon or storyline then a quest). You will not get more hitpoint (Shadowrun don't even have hitpoints) and there is no levels but you can buy upgrades for the karma. While you can get some gear improvments (mainly cybernetics and magical focus) that is not very important. Fame is usually more important then money/gear and while there are limits on specific skills and attributes (and the last points gets very expensive) you don't stop improving your character as you play.
Warhammer use and even weirder system where you switch class when you completed one...
My point anyways is that MMOs done exactly the same thing for a long time, and most of those things are all comming from the same source which is D&D. Looking on how other P&P games solved the same issues is helpful if you plan to try something new and think we need something new now, we needed something new years ago...
But the interesting thing with Shadowrun is that it is a fantasy games as well as a cyberpunk one and we know that MMO fans love fantasy. It is a very different take from other fantasy MMO but you can still play your elf thief, but maybe with a bit of cybernetics as well.
Personally though am I more interested in the mechanices in this case, and the fact that I think 'runs would work excellent in MMOs. It is not unlike running dungeons but with a gathering information and planning stage before you start it.
And yes, it is my favorite game.
Sounds fun. I wouldn't mind playing 1/3 of content at bargain prices, or for free.