I wouldnt want to compare Diablo 3 with a long term RPG game.
Why not? Certainly it has "RPG" in its game type and many people are still playing it after 5 years of release.
and there are plenty of other games that let you respec your skill load-outs. The now dead Marvel Heroes is another example.
I dont want to get into a discussion about that game that I have never played and doent look remotely interesting to me.
what I want to point out is MULTICLASS. The combinations are endless, 70% mage with 30% fighter or 42.333% mage 30% rouge...all depending on which items with which stats you put on which part of your body that was crafted by which materials and which people.
I am sure Diablo has a wonderfully deep crafting system but work with me here
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Yes but what's the point? How is leveling and permanent gear progression really that different? It's just two ways of achieving the same end.
Unless you are talking a game like EVE or even better Darkfall where all gear degrades via useage and is lost upon death.
Then of course the difference would be dramatic and (IMO) awesome as it would entirely kill the idea of linear progression in your game. No advantage could be gained that couldn't be lost.
It could indeed be done both ways, and I agree would be quite interesting to see with the degrading and gear loss on death. I suppose it would be sonewhat similar to a level system with total XP loss on death, but there would still be quite a big difference, especially if the gear is all player-crafted.
Yes but what's the point? How is leveling and permanent gear progression really that different? It's just two ways of achieving the same end.
Unless you are talking a game like EVE or even better Darkfall where all gear degrades via useage and is lost upon death.
Then of course the difference would be dramatic and (IMO) awesome as it would entirely kill the idea of linear progression in your game. No advantage could be gained that couldn't be lost.
It could indeed be done both ways, and I agree would be quite interesting to see with the degrading and gear loss on death. I suppose it would be sonewhat similar to a level system with total XP loss on death, but there would still be quite a big difference, especially if the gear is all player-crafted.
I wonder if this has ever been done...
Darkfall, Wurm, and Mortal Online all have gear progression that works in this manner. EVE gear also works in this manner except most items don't degrade via usage as they do in the other three titles.
The issue is that all four of those games have leveling systems and levels either cannot be lost, or are so hard to lose that you are still always effectively moving forward.
Take the leveling systems out and you have exactly what I am talking about.
Actually... I take that back.
Minecraft has the system I'm describing to a tee. Nothing you do in that game cannot be undone.
Most systems it's both. You level and gear level enhances your skills. There are very few games in which you can run around without any gear and survive at higher levels.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Wait, what? Insulting players intelligence because of the gear system in said game? Is this a joke? On one hand, the PLAYERS are what's wrong with the current mmo generation. They want everything so easily, so quickly else they cry like 2 yr old babies and the devs cater to it. So, I blame the players for whats wrong in the current generation of MMO's. On the other hand, Its partially the devs fault for catering to it but since its a business, it makes sense because they'd lose money if they didn't.
So, blame the players for the current issues with mmo's. Blame the "now" generation for the shit thats going on.
lol .. blame the audience? Sounds like you just like to belittle others because they want different entertainment. Devs have no obligations to cater to you.
And what is wrong with wanting quick entertainment? It is entertainment we are talking about, right? If i have any patience, it goes to my work.
When did I ever say in my post about catering to me? Not once...
If you do not think the current generation of mmo players are a problem when it comes to crying when things are too difficult or too time consuming than I am sorry but you have not played mmo's for long enough to see the transition.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with quick entertainment but for an MMO, which the entire concept of the genre is to invest time in your character and your surroundings, suddenly changes quickly because the audience cries that things take too long or are too difficult, it's a detriment to the game and genre as a whole. Great example is when a new mmo launches or a raid launches, people are either max lvl or the raids beaten in a day or two... but if it takes any longer than that, the players bitch and cry and nerfs happen to the raid or leveling experience. Do you REALLY, honestly think that's healthy for the genre? Hell no. What made the genre great was community, investing time into your character and that resulted in a sense of accomplishment(something thats SEVERELY lacking now). What we currently have, doesn't have a single one of those 3 I mentioned in my last sentence.
There's pleeeennnnty of other games and genres where you can get quick entertainment but don't taint mmo's all because people want things to come quickly and on a silver platter for them. There's less sense of accomplishment with that. Unfortunately I don't see mmo's ever going backwards in terms of those characteristics. Since its alllll about the $ now, instant gratification is the future for games and ease of acquiring stuff.
If done right everything can succeed tbh if done wrong however you will likely never see anything like that attempted by any major companies again until an indie company does it right. Big company dont like taking risks so i often find there games rather boring cause of it but alot of people seem to like the same thing with slightly different story/graphics
There's absolutely nothing wrong with quick entertainment but for an MMO, which the entire concept of the genre is to invest time in your character and your surroundings, suddenly changes quickly because the audience cries that things take too long or are too difficult, it's a detriment to the game and genre as a whole.
Change the concept. Problem solved.
I don't know if you have noticed, but the old MMORPG concepts are not relevant anymore. There is no such thing as "detriment to the game and the genre". Devs only need to make a fun game for the audience he caters to. Some hypothetical "concept" is irrelevant.
In fact, it is basically just "detrimental" to what you want .. back to your preference.
Personally, if MMO goes to cater for quick entertainment, so much the better. So how is that "detrimental" to me?
Comments
what I want to point out is MULTICLASS. The combinations are endless, 70% mage with 30% fighter or 42.333% mage 30% rouge...all depending on which items with which stats you put on which part of your body that was crafted by which materials and which people.
I am sure Diablo has a wonderfully deep crafting system but work with me here
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I wonder if this has ever been done...
The issue is that all four of those games have leveling systems and levels either cannot be lost, or are so hard to lose that you are still always effectively moving forward.
Take the leveling systems out and you have exactly what I am talking about.
Actually... I take that back.
Minecraft has the system I'm describing to a tee. Nothing you do in that game cannot be undone.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
If you do not think the current generation of mmo players are a problem when it comes to crying when things are too difficult or too time consuming than I am sorry but you have not played mmo's for long enough to see the transition.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with quick entertainment but for an MMO, which the entire concept of the genre is to invest time in your character and your surroundings, suddenly changes quickly because the audience cries that things take too long or are too difficult, it's a detriment to the game and genre as a whole. Great example is when a new mmo launches or a raid launches, people are either max lvl or the raids beaten in a day or two... but if it takes any longer than that, the players bitch and cry and nerfs happen to the raid or leveling experience. Do you REALLY, honestly think that's healthy for the genre? Hell no. What made the genre great was community, investing time into your character and that resulted in a sense of accomplishment(something thats SEVERELY lacking now). What we currently have, doesn't have a single one of those 3 I mentioned in my last sentence.
There's pleeeennnnty of other games and genres where you can get quick entertainment but don't taint mmo's all because people want things to come quickly and on a silver platter for them. There's less sense of accomplishment with that. Unfortunately I don't see mmo's ever going backwards in terms of those characteristics. Since its alllll about the $ now, instant gratification is the future for games and ease of acquiring stuff.
Big company dont like taking risks so i often find there games rather boring cause of it but alot of people seem to like the same thing with slightly different story/graphics
Change the concept. Problem solved.
I don't know if you have noticed, but the old MMORPG concepts are not relevant anymore. There is no such thing as "detriment to the game and the genre". Devs only need to make a fun game for the audience he caters to. Some hypothetical "concept" is irrelevant.
In fact, it is basically just "detrimental" to what you want .. back to your preference.
Personally, if MMO goes to cater for quick entertainment, so much the better. So how is that "detrimental" to me?