lord almighty

Smyd · April 2006

"Quick quote: We’re not interested in being all things to all people,” said Jones honestly. Vanguard has been designed primarily as a group oriented game. They’ve done away with instancing and are focused squarely on the MMO aspects of the title. If all you do is solo, then it may be best to look elsewhere." Vanguard does not meet my needs. Will be looking elsewhere."

from vanguard comments section.... and jesus in heaven. wtf in hell would u want to play an MMO if u wanna **Edited by Enigma** SOLO???? ITS A **Edited by Enigma**MMO FOR A REASON! PEOPLE LIKE YOU SHOULD GO FLOOD GAMES LIKE WOW OR OFFLINE GAMES!

Not sure why this is upsetting me so much but these people make games unenjoyable. Vanguard is the best and im sure it will be all they say it will be!

angerr · April 2006

posting flamebait like this isn't helping your cause either, even though i agree......people play these games for different reasons i just don't know why some people cant grasp that concept.

Smyd · April 2006

Well i'm sorry for the flame, but i have kept this anger in for so long it had to come out sometime

phosphoros · April 2006

As was stated already. People play MMOs for varies reasons. Unloading some all caps rant on forums about how angry you are about soloers isn't exactly constructive and really who cares?

But let's be constructive for a second.
I solo 80% of the time for varies reasons.
First, I love MMOs. I enjoy many things about them that I can't get in a single player game.
Second, I solo a lot because the times I play there usually isn't a lot of people around. It's just a fact of life for me. Sometimes one of my friends will have overlapping times and we'll team up and duo some stuff.
But usually, it's just me. There are sometimes some guildies on but they're either to low or to high a level to group with. So we chat and I solo.
So should I quit playing solo because it upsets your personal perception? I think not.

This of course isn't always the case because everyone has reasons for doing things the way they do them. Posting flamebait over it gets nothing done.

Suggestion, next time perhaps simply ask why people solo in an MMO instead of being a jackass. You might be surprised about the answers you get.

Just because you don't like it or it pisses you off doesn't mean everyone should see your side and agree.

::::20::

Torak · April 2006

I also agree with you...sort of.

There are times I don't have the time to round up a group so its cool to be able to solo. I do not prefer soloing but I end up doing it about half the time I play a game. Usually if I just need to get some of that ugly grinding out of the way. Or I have other things to do. I'm a busy body. I check merchants, dabble in crafting, chat, I really enjoy selling and bargaining (one reason I enjoy L2 is the player controlled economy and the amounts of money I can make playing the markets there, I have tons of cash and all the best gear for my grades) all that sort of thing.

Its not that everyone wants to solo OR group, its nice to be able to do both. Forced solo or forced group leaves one or the other out. BOTH need to work.

Obviously if you are solo, you are not going to take on the world mobs like in L2 (we have a new dragon named Valakas and to be honest, I don't think he has ever been killed yet and it takes 150 to 200 people to take down one of our dragons--if they are lucky)

edit-

Two good examples of what happens are WoW and D&DO.

WoW has a very poor, weak community because there is no interdependance whatso ever. Its solo heaven. By the time you actually need anyone to do anything you are at end game.

The ugly truth about D&DO is its mechanic and scope is far to limited. Its entirely group based....well what if you can't find a good group???? Hmmmm smokey??? For whatever reason that never occured to anyone over there in Turbine. Even Guild Wars has a mechanism to avoid that problem....and its fee to play. You can't techically "solo" GW either, you just have NPC stand-ins to help you.

SpiritofGame · April 2006

Actually, even Vanguard includes solo (casual) content and it would not surprise me to see them add more casual content geared for soloists (without the big "raid" payoffs) simply so the game can be played by those who generally have less time to spend.

I sorta think I would like to do it all. Some casual solo play which would include exploration. Exploration of the gameworld is often done while you are alone. Small group action, PUGs for example. And raids for when you have more time to dedicate to playing.

Crafting also is often considered the domain of the soloist -- as, apparently, Diplomacy will be in Vanguard.

And anyway, I'm still waiting for the E3 info dump to see what shape the game is in at this point.

Stormbane · April 2006

When I pay to play I expect to have something to do all the times I log in. If I cant get a group to play with me I expect the game to give me solocontent and when I have a group a expect to have group content to experience. Anything less is failure as far as Im concerned.

ste2000 · April 2006

Originally posted by Stormbane
When I pay to play I expect to have something to do all the times I log in. If I cant get a group to play with me I expect the game to give me solocontent and when I have a group a expect to have group content to experience. Anything less is failure as far as Im concerned.

Exactly, except other people has different opinion

jimmyman99 · April 2006

Any game that is bent on forced grouping is doomed for failure. People dont like to be told what to do, people like to do things "their" way. I sincerely hope Sigil will not make VSOH similar to EQ1
Im a soloer, and i want to be able to reach to the top alone. Im not saying i want all the cookies along my journey, but i want to be able to play the game fully. After all, my money is just as good as hardcore-groupie's money.
In general, its all about balance, have a bit of everything, let soloers be able to reach to high end if they want, make it hard, but doable. And let groupers get all the best items that are only available in zones not suatable for soloing. Thtats why WoW is so damn popular - they havent introduced anything revolutionary, they just hit the perfect balance spot.

Celestian · April 2006

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by Stormbane
When I pay to play I expect to have something to do all the times I log in. If I cant get a group to play with me I expect the game to give me solocontent and when I have a group a expect to have group content to experience. Anything less is failure as far as Im concerned.

Exactly, except other people has different opinion

Name one "person" that says there should be no solo content and I'll show you a person that is not in the business of making money.

Naazir · April 2006

Originally posted by Smyd
Well i'm sorry for the flame, but i have kept this anger in for so long it had to come out sometime

Man... Why so concerned about everyone else? LOL Let them play how they want and you play how you want. If someone wants to solo... so what? Yer gonna hate them for it? ROFL.

djnexus · May 2006

At least if it is mostly group oriented im sure it will be way better than DDO's group oriented game... look at the content thats being offered.

anarchyart · May 2006

Listen, it's all about difficulty.

You go up to a mob and try and kill it. It kicks your ass. You try again, it kicks your ass again. So you grow a brain cell and ask for help. I don't want another WoW. There's already one. I want a challenge and to die horribly if I'm not doing my best. **** money! I want a good game! I don't want another game where you just play through fun content and it's a cake walk, it feels too damn Disney.

I just pray Brad sticks to his vision and doesn't kowtow to the masses. The masses aren't gamers. They're consumers.

Bladin · May 2006

First off, anarchyart, if the masses are consumers, and you don't want him to bow down to the masses... then there won't be consumers. Gamers are great, they can make a game last a long time, but they can't make the game thrive, look at AC2, that game had some very nice gamers. but no consumers.

Listen people if you like this game, good for you(i find it interesting but holding any official comment till i play it, my opinion is that simple). Just because the devs say something or add something into the game, doesn't make it right.

Solo content should be in this game, and in fact any mmorpg, even if its only 50% as lucrative(end game should be group oriented).

NOBODY is saying they want the game to be "easier".
NOBODY is saying they want the game to be a cake walk throughout the entire process.

Just because something is soloable does not mean its "easier" it just means its doable by 1 person instead of 5, or 8, or 16, or 32, or 64. In fact group content is generally easier then solo content. You have the tank, the damage, the healer. The tank tanks, the healer heals, the damage dealers dps. If the tank doesnt aggro effectively, then your dps get killed. Its a relatively simple endeavour.

Solo content can be harder simple because you are not a fully rounded group. A warrior who cant heal himself, a healer who cant do damage, a mage who cant take hits. All have a counter. Grouping generally removes that counter making the overall process easier.

The main reason people solo is that it gives you access to actually playing the game and not standing around shouting 24 rogue lfg!!! 24 rogue lfg!!! 24 rogue lfg!!! People want to play the game when they log on, people don't want to have to deal with random idiots 24/7. People don't want to have to deal with standing around 2 hours while the 14 year old goes afk every 5 minutes to do chores for his mommy. People dont want to stand around 5 minutes before each pull while everyone goes rdy rdy rdy rdy rdy rdy, waiting for the tank to pull. Etc etc.

MMOs are about adventuring in a world with hundreds/thousands of other players. Not about dragging along 3 people to do the same exact tactic on the same mobs for the millionth time.

Group based games also bring about exclusion due to someones class, build, skills, gear, etc etc. But like they say, roll a healer and prepare to have a never ending life of torment of group invites even when your with a group.

zethcarn · May 2006

Originally posted by jimmyman99
Any game that is bent on forced grouping is doomed for failure. People dont like to be told what to do, people like to do things "their" way. I sincerely hope Sigil will not make VSOH similar to EQ1
Im a soloer, and i want to be able to reach to the top alone. Im not saying i want all the cookies along my journey, but i want to be able to play the game fully. After all, my money is just as good as hardcore-groupie's money.
In general, its all about balance, have a bit of everything, let soloers be able to reach to high end if they want, make it hard, but doable. And let groupers get all the best items that are only available in zones not suatable for soloing. Thtats why WoW is so damn popular - they havent introduced anything revolutionary, they just hit the perfect balance spot.

It's fine if you want to solo, just expect XP to be 5 times slower than grouping, as the way it should be. As it's already been stated we don't need another game like WoW that a 5 year old can figure out.

angerr · May 2006

Originally posted by Bladin

First off, anarchyart, if the masses are consumers, and you don't want him to bow down to the masses... then there won't be consumers. Gamers are great, they can make a game last a long time, but they can't make the game thrive, look at AC2, that game had some very nice gamers. but no consumers. Listen people if you like this game, good for you(i find it interesting but holding any official comment till i play it, my opinion is that simple). Just because the devs say something or add something into the game, doesn't make it right.Solo content should be in this game, and in fact any mmorpg, even if its only 50% as lucrative(end game should be group oriented).NOBODY is saying they want the game to be "easier".NOBODY is saying they want the game to be a cake walk throughout the entire process.Just because something is soloable does not mean its "easier" it just means its doable by 1 person instead of 5, or 8, or 16, or 32, or 64. In fact group content is generally easier then solo content. You have the tank, the damage, the healer. The tank tanks, the healer heals, the damage dealers dps. If the tank doesnt aggro effectively, then your dps get killed. Its a relatively simple endeavour.Solo content can be harder simple because you are not a fully rounded group. A warrior who cant heal himself, a healer who cant do damage, a mage who cant take hits. All have a counter. Grouping generally removes that counter making the overall process easier.The main reason people solo is that it gives you access to actually playing the game and not standing around shouting 24 rogue lfg!!! 24 rogue lfg!!! 24 rogue lfg!!! People want to play the game when they log on, people don't want to have to deal with random idiots 24/7. People don't want to have to deal with standing around 2 hours while the 14 year old goes afk every 5 minutes to do chores for his mommy. People dont want to stand around 5 minutes before each pull while everyone goes rdy rdy rdy rdy rdy rdy, waiting for the tank to pull. Etc etc.MMOs are about adventuring in a world with hundreds/thousands of other players. Not about dragging along 3 people to do the same exact tactic on the same mobs for the millionth time.Group based games also bring about exclusion due to someones class, build, skills, gear, etc etc. But like they say, roll a healer and prepare to have a never ending life of torment of group invites even when your with a group.

i understand your point that some people don't want to wait for a group or some people like to solo more than group.

but you don't speak for everyone, alot of people do like to group as well as solo and many of other things. for me personally, i like to group and solo but for me soloing gets boring after a while....

so if i play a game that is designed for soloing, it doesn't really give me the option to group because everybody is just soloing lol.

hopefully vanguard does add some legit solo and casual content, for people that don't have alot of time to play in a certain session....but as far as it being a game built for solo content, it is not going to be that type of game.

there are plenty of solo friendly games out there to accommodate those types of players, i don't think every single mmorpg has to be made for casual or solo play IMO.

jimmyman99 · May 2006

Originally posted by zethcarn

Originally posted by jimmyman99 Any game that is bent on forced grouping is doomed for failure. People dont like to be told what to do, people like to do things "their" way. I sincerely hope Sigil will not make VSOH similar to EQ1Im a soloer, and i want to be able to reach to the top alone. Im not saying i want all the cookies along my journey, but i want to be able to play the game fully. After all, my money is just as good as hardcore-groupie's money. In general, its all about balance, have a bit of everything, let soloers be able to reach to high end if they want, make it hard, but doable. And let groupers get all the best items that are only available in zones not suatable for soloing. Thtats why WoW is so damn popular - they havent introduced anything revolutionary, they just hit the perfect balance spot.
It's fine if you want to solo, just expect XP to be 5 times slower than grouping, as the way it should be. As it's already been stated we don't need another game like WoW that a 5 year old can figure out.

And thats exactly what I meant. I like to play a game where I can solo AND group. Becuase either one of those features, will limit you one way or the other, but having both of those feture will actually give u a choice to play 2 different styles. And having a choice choice is good.

jimmyman99 · May 2006

Originally posted by angerr

Originally posted by Bladin

i understand your point that some people don't want to wait for a group or some people like to solo more than group.

but you don't speak for everyone, alot of people do like to group as well as solo and many of other things. for me personally, i like to group and solo but for me soloing gets boring after a while....

so if i play a game that is designed for soloing, it doesn't really give me the option to group because everybody is just soloing lol.

hopefully vanguard does add some legit solo and casual content, for people that don't have alot of time to play in a certain session....but as far as it being a game built for solo content, it is not going to be that type of game.

there are plenty of solo friendly games out there to accommodate those types of players, i don't think every single mmorpg has to be made for casual or solo play IMO.

I would say not "some" people preffer to play solo, but rather "most" people preffer that. WoW is a good example - a very casual friendly game with huge player base. It should be a good indication where every MMORPG should lean - casual play. I agree with you on the grouping though, it has to be implemented well enough into the game so that people dont solo all the way into their high end game. Perhaps a combination of solo content and group content i na form of 2 continents, one is for soloers, where drops arent as good as the other continent, but mobs arent linked and arent grouped. The other continent requires a group to survive, but drops are more common, exp is slightly faster etc etc. In order to succeed, Vanguard will have to be very tricky to pull customers away from WoW. We all know WoW gets a lot of negative attention because its lacking in the group raid departament. Yes it has some raiding at high end, but its pretty much endles grind (or so I hear, I never actually got to high end cuase i was too busy leveling my countless alts heh). Grinding dungeons or BGs for honor is not the best way IMO. So WoW did not do a great job at high end, but did amazing job at low and medium levels

If Vanguard devs could learn from WoW and implement WoW elements but at the same time create better grouping content, high end content, raiding and whatever else is needed to please the grouping crowd, then I bet it can outperform WoW and break the reacord.

I dont play WoW anymore, but I praise WoW for one single reason - it broke through the mental barrier that players need to be forced to group. As Bladin described well enough, most people dont like standing for hours waiting to find a group or ending up joining a bad group.

As I said countless times, its all about balance. Dont give the advantage to ANY one specific crowd. Be nice to soloers and casual,s but dont forget about groupers and raiders (perhaps even PKers on select servers)

angerr · May 2006

Originally posted by jimmyman99
Originally posted by angerrOriginally posted by Bladin
i understand your point that some people don't want to wait for a group or some people like to solo more than group.
but you don't speak for everyone, alot of people do like to group as well as solo and many of other things. for me personally, i like to group and solo but for me soloing gets boring after a while....
so if i play a game that is designed for soloing, it doesn't really give me the option to group because everybody is just soloing lol.
hopefully vanguard does add some legit solo and casual content, for people that don't have alot of time to play in a certain session....but as far as it being a game built for solo content, it is not going to be that type of game.
there are plenty of solo friendly games out there to accommodate those types of players, i don't think every single mmorpg has to be made for casual or solo play IMO.
I would say not "some" people preffer to play solo, but rather "most" people preffer that. WoW is a good example - a very casual friendly game with huge player base. It should be a good indication where every MMORPG should lean - casual play. I agree with you on the grouping though, it has to be implemented well enough into the game so that people dont solo all the way into their high end game. Perhaps a combination of solo content and group content i na form of 2 continents, one is for soloers, where drops arent as good as the other continent, but mobs arent linked and arent grouped. The other continent requires a group to survive, but drops are more common, exp is slightly faster etc etc. In order to succeed, Vanguard will have to be very tricky to pull customers away from WoW. We all know WoW gets a lot of negative attention because its lacking in the group raid departament. Yes it has some raiding at high end, but its pretty much endles grind (or so I hear, I never actually got to high end cuase i was too busy leveling my countless alts heh). Grinding dungeons or BGs for honor is not the best way IMO. So WoW did not do a great job at high end, but did amazing job at low and medium levelsIf Vanguard devs could learn from WoW and implement WoW elements but at the same time create better grouping content, high end content, raiding and whatever else is needed to please the grouping crowd, then I bet it can outperform WoW and break the reacord. I dont play WoW anymore, but I praise WoW for one single reason - it broke through the mental barrier that players need to be forced to group. As Bladin described well enough, most people dont like standing for hours waiting to find a group or ending up joining a bad group.As I said countless times, its all about balance. Dont give the advantage to ANY one specific crowd. Be nice to soloers and casual,s but dont forget about groupers and raiders (perhaps even PKers on select servers)

i understand what you are saying, but i am one of those people that believes every mmo shouldn't be made for every type of player.

true wow is the jack of all trades, master of none mmo and i don't think the end game is that bad at all.....

here is the problem with a game like wow, yes it is solo/casual friendly but as soon as you hit max lvl it instantly becomes a game where you are forced to group/raid and grind for hours to get upgrades.

if wow would have been made for casual/solo play at endgame as well it would have been alot better IMO, hell i don't consider myself a casual player and even i couldn't endure that grind at endgame lol.

i just think that even though there are more people that play video games casually, there should still be a game for people that play more often or like to group/raid.

i read your other post you made in another thread that would apply to this, if they made alternate ruleset servers for soloers or whatever that would be a great idea.

but i don't think vanguard needs to be a jack of all trades mmo ala wow, alternate ruleset servers maybe but i think it is great vanguard is sticking to one type of player, thats the way all mmo's should be (to a certain extent) IMHO

dragonace · May 2006

Originally posted by jimmyman99
...If Vanguard devs could learn from WoW and implement WoW elements but at
the same time create better grouping content, high end content, raiding
and whatever else is needed to please the grouping crowd, then I bet it
can outperform WoW and break the reacord....

I'm not really interested in any kind of WoW clone. I'd be happy if the Devs. just stuck with what they've already said. Some quotes from the Devs follow:

Following quotes are from: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?

2.9 "We have identified our target audience, the core gamer. Please look up
previous posts where I've said alot about who I feel that is. Then we
are also going to try to attract more casual and more raid people.
People on both sides. But never putting the core gamer at risk. And
then we are going to branch out almost from a genre-standpoint. We are
doing things like very involved harvesting/crafting, diplomacy which
touches, eventually even on RTS elements, and more."

2.9 "Second, we are confident that our target audience, while likely not as
large as WoWs, is plenty big to make the game successful, make MSFT
happy, make Sigil happy, and support us in our future endeavors. I know
people debate this. It's niche! Well, does niche = 500k because WoW has
4 million? If so, I like niche. If it's 100k, well, that would be
sub-optimal, but I'm not too worried"

37.2 "The plan is to have the majority of content be for groups, with the
minority for solo/casuals and raids. Lots of game mechanics in or
planned to make sure this works and to let us make group dungeons, even
at higher levels, appealing and rewarding. Easier said than done, but
we gotta do it."

37.11 "Yes, you will be able to solo. You will be able to solo more
effectively in 'casual' areas than in group and raid areas. You will
likely have difficulty soloing in group areas and extreme difficulty in
raid areas (e.g. probably isn't going to happen). Some of you may enjoy
soloing in Vanguard, and some of you may find it too tedious or slow or
not rewarding enough... Are we designing Vanguard as a solo-oriented
game? No. The focus is on grouping. Does that mean we hate soloing and
want to make it impossible? No, certainly not, but it will take a
'second seat' so to speak...

You will always be more efficient and encouraged to group, even in
casual areas, although you won't need a large group. The casual areas
are geared towards small groups and also designed such that one can
achieve advancement in shorter contiguous chunks of gameplay, so these
areas should be attractive not only to the more casual gamer, but even
the hard core raid gamer who just has an hour or so to log on and wants
to be able to move his character forward in some way."

37.11 "We are NOT trying to drive out solo players -- that would be foolish.
In fact, we're making casual areas to support solo players, as well as
players who have less contiguous time to play, and then even the
occasional more hard core player who wants to log on briefly and
actually still get something done.

The focus of the game is on the group experience. On each side, you
have the solo or more casual content, and then the raid content. "

Those thoughts fit my play-style fairly well, so I'm definitely interested.

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