Update on deliverables: Jan 2018

Comments

• CantPlayHockey Member UncommonPosts: 55

  January 2018 edited January 2018

  Wow guy, nice list. 
  That must've taken some time. Kudos!

  Post edited by CantPlayHockey on January 2018

  
• Kyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,057

  January 2018

  CantPlayHockey said:

  Wow guy, nice list. 
  That must've turn some time. Kudos!

  He must be some sort of COE fan or something to do that much work.
  
  

  

  "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 
  

  "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

  Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
  

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• Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651

  January 2018

  Kyleran said:

  CantPlayHockey said:

  Wow guy, nice list. 
  That must've turn some time. Kudos!

  He must be some sort of COE fan or something to do that much work.
  
  

  Or simply cut and paste from Caspien's own post   Total time to google and copy < 1 minute
  
  I just figured that we are about to get another "Progress" update so we might as well measure progress against what was promised.
  
  

  

  All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

  "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

  Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 
  

  Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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• Calaruil Member UncommonPosts: 141

  January 2018 edited January 2018

  I am sure the video I just saw had some parkour in, doesn't that count as advanced movement?
  
  Or is that supposed to be someting else?
  
  And the video definately has snow in it, with it looked like it settling but I'm not 100% as it was only a small part of a longer video
• Calaruil Member UncommonPosts: 141

  January 2018

  sorry just finished the list and damn that's a nice set of features if they get it all done 

  
• mystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378

  January 2018

  Below is the link to which the OP aquired his list. 
  
  https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/21106/State-of-Elyria-July-2017
  
  Just to be clear that list is what can be expected in the completed game. But first, the majority if not all of these features will gradually be implemented and tested by the Alpha One players in VoxElyria. It has not been confirmed yet if this process will be protected under the NDA, so the information may not be readily avaliable to the general public right away. 
  
  

  The Features of Chronicles of Elyria

  One of the things we've come to understand as we've interacted with the community over the last six months is the importance of managing the expectations of the community. It's very easy, in the absence of concrete information, for the imaginations of players to run wild. Unfortunately, imagination soon becomes whispers, whispers become rumors, rumors become fact, and then two years from now we'll be finishing up CoE to the disappointment of all as we reveal that we don't have spaceships, steampunk blimps, terraforming, or the ability to re-route rivers.

  So I wanted to, at this point in development, share with you a condensed form of our feature list. Please understand, this isn't everything. The actual spreadsheet of CoE's individual features is significantly longer. This is a condensed version which is intended to give you a good idea, with some application of logic, of what the game encompasses. If you're concerned from looking at this list that something was cut, it wasn't. If we advertised something previously in our kickstarter video, a Q&A, or a design journal, it's still in. We may have simply moved it under a higher level feature, which as a result causes it not to be listed here. One final note, many of the items in the list may not make sense. I have no intention of explaining every single one. But, in the spirit of transparency, here's the list.

  
• Wizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

  January 2018

  keyword >>>> "Spreadsheet".
  
  When there is a near complete game ,we can talk about how good this game will be,in the mean time and unless they remove all cash shop ideas,i will never play the game no matter how good it is.
  I would accept ongoing sub fees so that everyone is on the same level and nothing outside is interfering with the inside game.A one time box fee,heck it could be $100 if i have a 1 week trial maybe even a 3 day trial before i pay and if the game is deemed worth it.
  
  There is no other option for me,i will not be part of a game that micro transaction  stuff,not even stuff someone calls "non p2w" for the simple reason that once Pandora's box is open i would always fear the cash shop getting worse and ruining a game i spent time in.
  
  My favorite game of all time,played for 13 years "FFXI"ruined by GREED,developer completely changed the design to sell a new 3 part expansion "Abyssea",i was pissed.So i never want to see any type of greed mechanic from any developer ever again.

  

  Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
  
  
• Dleatherus Member UncommonPosts: 168

  January 2018

  i'd not expect much if anything to be crossed off that list with any end-of-year update that Caspian posts
  
  those features are all to be worked upon and fleshed out during VoxElyria and polished in 'normal' alpha/beta
  
  it is projected that VoxElyria will start opening its doors to the alpha I members of the player base sometime towards the end of the 1st quarter 2018, and so the initial scope of items on that list being tackled i would expect to be relatively small, and then grow considerably as the year progresses
  
  for me it will be questionable as to whether many will be crossed off the list as  'fully finished' by the middle of the year summary since they will need to be ported over to the full graphics version
  
  when i saw the extent of the list when it was first published last july my reaction was a mixture of "wow, amazing scope of features to be covered" and "no freaking way can they tackle all of this, nobody has ever done something with a list this ambitious before"
  
  the concept of developing the mechanics in the relatively simple voxel graphic world and then porting the mechanics once they have shown to be viable isn't something that i personally have seen a studio do before
  
  it's pretty innovative thinking in my opinion, and am definitely interested to see how it all comes together
  
  
  
  
  

  
• mystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378

  January 2018 edited January 2018

  Wizardry said:

  keyword >>>> "Spreadsheet".
  
  When there is a near complete game ,we can talk about how good this game will be,in the mean time and unless they remove all cash shop ideas,i will never play the game no matter how good it is.
  I would accept ongoing sub fees so that everyone is on the same level and nothing outside is interfering with the inside game.A one time box fee,heck it could be $100 if i have a 1 week trial maybe even a 3 day trial before i pay and if the game is deemed worth it.
  
  There is no other option for me,i will not be part of a game that micro transaction  stuff,not even stuff someone calls "non p2w" for the simple reason that once Pandora's box is open i would always fear the cash shop getting worse and ruining a game i spent time in.
  
  My favorite game of all time,played for 13 years "FFXI"ruined by GREED,developer completely changed the design to sell a new 3 part expansion "Abyssea",i was pissed.So i never want to see any type of greed mechanic from any developer ever again.

  That is perfectly understandable and in all sincerity, I feel the same way as you do. I find that the majority of MMOs on the market today are nothing but cash grabs with their microtransactions, lockboxes, and DlCs. Perhaps that is why I played NWN 1 for twelve years, there was never an extra cost.
  
  I would never suggest that someone donate to the game unless they are comfortable doing so. There is certainly no harm in waiting to see what the finished product is like before making any kind of decision.
  
  Myself I donated the amount I did mainly because I wanted to be involved in the development process of what I considered to be my dream game. However, that was a personal choice I made after several months of researching and being part of the community.
  
  On the other hand, I do want to ensure that others are exposed to all the information so they can make an informed decision rather than just disregarding the game completely.
• Calaruil Member UncommonPosts: 141

  January 2018

  Dleatherus said:

  i'd not expect much if anything to be crossed off that list with any end-of-year update that Caspian posts
  
  those features are all to be worked upon and fleshed out during VoxElyria and polished in 'normal' alpha/beta
  
  it is projected that VoxElyria will start opening its doors to the alpha I members of the player base sometime towards the end of the 1st quarter 2018, and so the initial scope of items on that list being tackled i would expect to be relatively small, and then grow considerably as the year progresses
  
  for me it will be questionable as to whether many will be crossed off the list as  'fully finished' by the middle of the year summary since they will need to be ported over to the full graphics version
  
  when i saw the extent of the list when it was first published last july my reaction was a mixture of "wow, amazing scope of features to be covered" and "no freaking way can they tackle all of this, nobody has ever done something with a list this ambitious before"
  
  the concept of developing the mechanics in the relatively simple voxel graphic world and then porting the mechanics once they have shown to be viable isn't something that i personally have seen a studio do before
  
  it's pretty innovative thinking in my opinion, and am definitely interested to see how it all comes together
  
  
  
  
  

  Will be a great game if they nail all those features though.
  Just a quick question is the snow completed and if so we need it crossing off the list.
• BLNX Member UncommonPosts: 275

  January 2018

  Calaruil said:

  Dleatherus said:

  i'd not expect much if anything to be crossed off that list with any end-of-year update that Caspian posts
  
  those features are all to be worked upon and fleshed out during VoxElyria and polished in 'normal' alpha/beta
  
  it is projected that VoxElyria will start opening its doors to the alpha I members of the player base sometime towards the end of the 1st quarter 2018, and so the initial scope of items on that list being tackled i would expect to be relatively small, and then grow considerably as the year progresses
  
  for me it will be questionable as to whether many will be crossed off the list as  'fully finished' by the middle of the year summary since they will need to be ported over to the full graphics version
  
  when i saw the extent of the list when it was first published last july my reaction was a mixture of "wow, amazing scope of features to be covered" and "no freaking way can they tackle all of this, nobody has ever done something with a list this ambitious before"
  
  the concept of developing the mechanics in the relatively simple voxel graphic world and then porting the mechanics once they have shown to be viable isn't something that i personally have seen a studio do before
  
  it's pretty innovative thinking in my opinion, and am definitely interested to see how it all comes together
  
  
  
  
  

  Will be a great game if they nail all those features though.
  Just a quick question is the snow completed and if so we need it crossing off the list.

  
  The only one I care about are those child contracts. They've had it easy for too long, let's put them back to work!
  
  (I know that's not their purpose but a guy can dream)

  

  In the King's Court, I choose to be the Jester.
• Calaruil Member UncommonPosts: 141

  January 2018

  Legalised child slavery....
  
  18 rating here we come 
• mystichaze Member UncommonPosts: 378

  January 2018

  Quote Calaruil
  
  Just a quick question is the snow completed and if so we need it crossing off the list.
  
  

  
  Yes!
  
  
  
• Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651

  January 2018

  Wizardry said:

  
  I would accept ongoing sub fees so that everyone is on the same level and nothing outside is interfering with the inside game.A one time box fee,heck it could be $100 if i have a 1 week trial maybe even a 3 day trial before i pay and if the game is deemed worth it.
  
  There is no other option for me,i will not be part of a game that micro transaction  stuff,not even stuff someone calls "non p2w" for the simple reason that once Pandora's box is open i would always fear the cash shop getting worse and ruining a game i spent time in.
  
  

  I would similarly love such a game.  Sadly CoE is not such a game.  It has a cash shop until it opens and then a 3 month no wipe head start for high backers.  But that's a story for another thread   This one is simply to check off on progress in delivering on what was promised.
  
  
  

  All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

  "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

  Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 
  

  Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

  "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
• Calaruil Member UncommonPosts: 141

  January 2018 edited January 2018

  Slapshot1188 said:

  Wizardry said:

  
  I would accept ongoing sub fees so that everyone is on the same level and nothing outside is interfering with the inside game.A one time box fee,heck it could be $100 if i have a 1 week trial maybe even a 3 day trial before i pay and if the game is deemed worth it.
  
  There is no other option for me,i will not be part of a game that micro transaction  stuff,not even stuff someone calls "non p2w" for the simple reason that once Pandora's box is open i would always fear the cash shop getting worse and ruining a game i spent time in.
  
  

  I would similarly love such a game.  Sadly CoE is not such a game.  It has a cash shop until it opens and then a 3 month no wipe head start for high backers.  But that's a story for another thread   This one is simply to check off on progress in delivering on what was promised.
  
  
  

  Check off snow then!!!
  
  
  

  mystichaze said:

  Quote Calaruil
  
  Just a quick question is the snow completed and if so we need it crossing off the list.
  
  

  
  Yes!
  
  
  

  Thank you, looks good, I'm assuming that'a sped up a bit?
• Tekro Member UncommonPosts: 19

  January 2018

  Not sure exactly what the OP was trying to achieve, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt. If we are reviewing the list simply to get a percentage toward completion that is fine.. I think that is valid as Caspien and the SBS crew have spoken of 'transparency' of development etc.  But don't get ahead of yourself.. It is not for you to 'know' anything until they pass the info as they feel appropriate, and that doesn't give you a lot of leeway to stand on if you are trying to be negative.  Because it is all relative to what and when they feel it should be listed as far as progress.  Me, for one, I don't think they will stay with the 'cash shop' format after the actual release, but it can help fill in the funding need as development continues.  I gave what I gave in support of a good idea.  I pray it comes to fruition and believe it will.  Until then.. 'twiddles thumbs and whistles'.  Happy New Year All!

  
• Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651

  January 2018

  Nothing specific trying to be achieved... other than to document the promised deliverables. This is how progress should be measured.  As their promised features become functional and delivered I will check them off.  This is a true progress meter as opposed to an ambiguous pro or negative "status update"
  

  

  All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

  "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

  Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 
  

  Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

  "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
• CantPlayHockey Member UncommonPosts: 55

  January 2018

  Slapshot1188 said:

  Kyleran said:

  CantPlayHockey said:

  Wow guy, nice list. 
  That must've taken some time. Kudos!

  He must be some sort of COE fan or something to do that much work.
  
  

  Or simply cut and paste from Caspien's own post   Total time to google and copy < 1 minute
  
  I just figured that we are about to get another "Progress" update so we might as well measure progress against what was promised.
  
  

  A copy/paste that took less than a minute?!
  
  Kudos withdrawn!
• Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651

  January 2018 edited January 2018

  Ok... now I guess we can get back to genuine discussions
  
  HMM... not sure where the rest of my message went but anyhow:
  
  As I think more on this I think just checking off items is not the best way to measure progress.   Obviously a fully functional OPC system is a lot more important than "Rust"...   I will have to think on this a bit.
  
  

  Post edited by Slapshot1188 on January 2018

  All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

  "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

  Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 
  

  Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

  "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
• Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651

  August 2019 edited August 2019

  Slapshot1188 said:

  Below is a list of the promised deliverables/features for the game.  These features were listed by Caspien himself last summer.  This list is not all encompassing as there are features not listed, but everything listed is CONFIRMED as a feature promised to the game. 
  
  I will cross them off as they become functional/delivered.  As of January second I only count 2 of the near 300 listed.
  
  
  
  

  Locks & Keys Object Keys Shared Married Inventory Access Item/Container Permissions Space Permissions / Taboo Areas Traps Achievements Achievement Tracking Achievement Rewards Artifacts Past-Life Achievements Animal Pathfinding Animal Combat Pack Behaviors Individual Animal Behaviors Animal Needs Animal Reproduction Animal Aggression NPC Pathfinding NPC Combat NPC Needs NPC Personalities NPC Memory OPCs Character Creation Wards of the State NTCs Character Attributes Character Traits Body Dynamics Weapon Sets Combat Stances Combat Techniques Melee Combat Mechanics Ranged Combat Thrown / Improvised Weapons Armor Damage Reduction Equipment Wear & Tear Equipment Durability Status Effects Languages Gestures / Emotes Paired Emotes Proximity Text Chat Friends List Tells Family Chat Chat Channels Party Chat Implicit Contracts Explicit Contracts Object / Item Contracts Map & Region Contracts Contract Clauses, Conjunctions, Remuneration, Rights, Responsibilities and Signatures Contract Plurality Contract Creation Contract Progress Tracking Crafting of small objects Recipes & Patterns Resources & Materials Gathering Recycling Alterations and Adornments Blueprints Crafting Stations Crafting Tools Minting Equipment Customization Crimes Bounties & Bounty Tokens Criminal Escorts Tribunals & Judges Prison / Spirit-Loss Trade Live Auctions Shops & Consignment Animal Aging & Dying Harvesting Seed Collection Pollination Germination Growing / Maintenance

  Growth / Reproduction Rates Herding Breeding Domestication Taming / Breaking Animal Controlling / Commanding Pet Survival Day / Night Cycle Weather Patterns Temperature Humidity Seasons Weather Effects Rain Snow Hail Sandstorms Lightning Fog Caustic / Acid Rain Water Tables Watersheds Lakes Rivers Puddles Decomposition Spoiling / Expiration Fermentation Rust Structural Wear & Tear Wearable Equipment Wieldable Items Family Names Family Crests Heirs & Inheritance Sensing Death Bolstering Dynasties Marriage Spouse & Child Locking Domain Management Border Disputes Claims & Casus Belli Revolution Line of Succession Laws Titles Vassals / Fealty Approval Rates Services Taxes Knighthood Housing & Structure Blueprints Architecture Tool Rooms Identification Papers Forgery Names & Introductions Name Changes Anonymity Disguises Gossip Witnesses & Evidence Opinion Indicators Criminal Status Bags & Containers Searching & Looting Stackable Items Party Contracts & Looting Parcels of Land Zoning Land Purchase Leasing Property Taxes Adverse Possession Squatting Incapacitation Grievous Wounds / Spirit Walking Death Tolls Bloodlust Soul Binding Stand Movement

  Advanced Movement Contextual Movement Impaired Movement Paths & Roads Footprints & Tracking Magick & Rituals Religion Maps & Cartography Navigation & Triangulation Organization Member Management Organization Ranks & Titles Permissions Access Restrictions Organization Bonuses Exclusive Knowledge Dissolution Bylaws Guilds Schools Associations / Non-Profits Physics Procreation Requirements Child Contracts Progeny Options Research & Technology Organization Perks Sieging & Building Damage Destruction & Structural Collapse Fire Siege Weapons Settlement Types & Requirements Orphanages Inns Taverns / Pubs Building Bonuses Settlement Leadership Settlement Dissolution Mobile Settlements Skill Types Skill Checks Improving Attributes Skill Progression Skill Atrophy Teaching Body Dynamics Dynamic Story Engine Soulmates Soul Affinity Story Points Dramatic Situations Player Destiny Natural Disasters Storyfinding Talents Relics Consumables Genetic Predispositions Vitality & Energy Metabolic Rates Homeostasis Hunger / Thirst Auto-food consumption Fatigue Wounds / Breaks Poisons Venoms Diseases Mounts Vehicles Caverns & Caves Tunneling Examining Pickup / Put-down Toss Drop Activate Item-World Interaction Item-Item Interaction Moving & Dragging Sitting Put-down Artifact Identification Relic Identification

  It’s now been 2 years since Caspien posted this list of confirmed features (summer 2017) and at the time he stated they would have these in game when they launched 2 years from that point (that would be now). Those 2 years seemed so far away when he made that claim back in 2017 but that time has already come. So I figured it would be a good time to take stock of how much of what he said turned out to be true.   
  
  As as we know, the game is not launched, no 3 month no wipe Headstart, no beta 2, no beta 1, no Alpha 2, no Alpha 1, no Prelude, no Elyria Adventure Construction set, no Kingdoms Of Elyria, Vox Elyria was scrapped, ElyriaMud was scrapped, but DSS is soooooo close.  
  
  But to check on how close they are let’s take a look at the promised feature list above and let me know which ones I can check off as confirmed to be functional.
  
  For context please keep in mind that the 2019 release date was pushed back from the Dec 2017 original release date.  He has also raised millions more than he originally claimed he needed so funds were not the issue (although as time drags on, obviously he needs more money).  

  Post edited by Slapshot1188 on August 2019

  

  All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

  "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

  Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 
  

  Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

  "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
• Amathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630

  August 2019

  After reading that I feel caught up in my own work. 

  

  EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
• Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651

  August 2019 edited August 2019

  Dleatherus said:
  

  i'd not expect much if anything to be crossed off that list with any end-of-year update that Caspian posts (Well to be fair you did say ANY end-of-year so it could be 2023)
  
  those features are all to be worked upon and fleshed out during VoxElyria and polished in 'normal' alpha/beta (Ouch... Poor VoxElyria followed his sibling ElyriaMud into oblivion before we even knew him)
  
  it is projected that VoxElyria will start opening its doors to the alpha I members of the player base sometime towards the end of the 1st quarter 2018, and so the initial scope of items on that list being tackled i would expect to be relatively small, and then grow considerably as the year progresses (Guess that he missed the date a little ehh?  Whats the new estimate for Alpha 1?)
  
  for me it will be questionable as to whether many will be crossed off the list as  'fully finished' by the middle of the year summary since they will need to be ported over to the full graphics version  (You were right... not many were "fully finished" by middle of the year, or middle of the followng year, or today...)
  
  when i saw the extent of the list when it was first published last july my reaction was a mixture of "wow, amazing scope of features to be covered" and "no freaking way can they tackle all of this, nobody has ever done something with a list this ambitious before" 
  
  the concept of developing the mechanics in the relatively simple voxel graphic world and then porting the mechanics once they have shown to be viable isn't something that i personally have seen a studio do before (Neither had we and thats why we stated the obvious, that ElyriaMud and VoxElyria were wastes of time and resources)
  
  it's pretty innovative thinking in my opinion, and am definitely interested to see how it all comes together (Guess we found out the answer to THAT question didn't we)
  
  
  
  

  Guess this didn't age well...  Care to update us on your current thoughts?  It's amazing to me how we went from being told all this would be done... to eagerly waiting for "read-only maps" to be deployed...

  

  All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

  "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

  Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 
  

  Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

  "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
• Torrsk Member UncommonPosts: 295

  August 2019

  It has been many years since I have seen the features SBS wants to put into the game. Maybe I had forgotten most of them or simply too much time has passed, since any were really talked about. I can't see any gaming company, putting this off. It simply would take way too long, with such a blow out, money wise. No doubt many of these features could all be tested together, trying to get them all to run at the same time. Without each of them causing problems, that's another story. 
  
  I also think I would rather see some company try to pull off half of these in some deep RPG. Knowing players will just destroy everything they touch anyway.
• Kyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,057

  August 2019

  I did see a video short of a sandstorm, perhaps that's one item we could cross off the list?

  "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 
  

  "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

  Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
  

  Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
  

  Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

  "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
  

  
  
  
  
  
  
• some-clueless-guy Member UncommonPosts: 227

  August 2019

  This must be what people who watched 2001: a Space Oddisey 18 years ago must have felt. I remember watching Return to the Future part 2 in 2015 and thinking: "Hmm, so this is what they thought 2015 would look like uh?"