I don't know. I never trust "grind" as players usually use it. I tihnk they use this term to describe things in a game they don't like.
There might be primarily two camps of gamers, maybe more. One is story/character driven. They have to be led by a constant stream of story and character dilemmas. The other is more reflexive and action driven. They need a constant stream of stimulation and environmental interaction. These two camps of players can crossover into the other, forming a third camp of independents who mix and match the traits of each. (There may be other camps or other traits, don't get me wrong.)
Look no further than the reasoning behind Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale. The designers intentionally made Baldur's Gate 50/50 story/combat. PST was 60/40 story/combat. Icewind Dale was 40/60 story/combat. These numbers might be slightly off, but the point is they knew evne back then there was a divide in their audience, so the produced these different games to test the waters. Ultimatley, I think they concluded Baldur's Gate 2 was their best product. This is no surprise, since it's 50/50. However, the thing to take from this is there're extremes too. Some players will like games with mostly combat, others will like games with mostly story.
EQ1, because you accomplished the grind while socializing with other humans. That, and the fact that each piece of gear you obtained actually meant something and might be with you for months, if not over a year.
This.
Games these days aren't worth grinding in, because of the constant gear resets. You never get to enjoy your progression, because the developers are always destroying your work in an effort to force feed you the expansions or newest content.
Remember when you could be in a progression guild in EQ, without having to be on a progression server? That was a thing... for YEARS. New guilds would form and work their way through the content starting at Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox, until they caught up nad then work from there, in an attempt to make sure all players in the guild started from the same baseline.
This is virtually impossible in games like World of Warcraft, FFXIV, or ESO. The entire dynamics of these games, Socially and in terms of content design and character advancement, have changed.
I don't think we'll see a game like this for a while. I don't think Pantheon will bring this back, since they don't seem to be putting much emphasis on raiding.
Also, the players in MMORPGs these days aren't like the players that were in EQ. Gaming culture was different. General (world) culture was different as well. The way people interact with each other differs, these days, and we are no longer able to suspend reality in these games because they are commodity. This is why Role Playing Communities have largely died out in MMORPGs.
Best, most rewarding Grind, i would have to say Black Desert Online, i started fairly early on as a trader, and i found driving the wagons around trading in the cities/villages a fairly relaxing and enjoyable activity, it also gained me a fair amount of silver, now i've progressed to using an Epheria Sailboat and my trading activities have increased dramatically, the Port Ratt to Velia run easily nets me over 18 million silver per trip, and if i make a run to Ratt with calpheon timber crates it is often over 24 million silver, well the best part of it really is the Sea voyages, the sound of the waves, and the occasional nine shark having a go as i go past is kind of fun, as is dealing with phantom ships, almost level 58 now too, not that i engage in combat at all, tbh sometimes its easy to forget that there is any fighting in the game at all
Best, most rewarding Grind, i would have to say Black Desert Online, i started fairly early on as a trader, and i found driving the wagons around trading in the cities/villages a fairly relaxing and enjoyable activity, it also gained me a fair amount of silver, now i've progressed to using an Epheria Sailboat and my trading activities have increased dramatically, the Port Ratt to Velia run easily nets me over 18 million silver per trip, and if i make a run to Ratt with calpheon timber crates it is often over 24 million silver, well the best part of it really is the Sea voyages, the sound of the waves, and the occasional nine shark having a go as i go past is kind of fun, as is dealing with phantom ships, almost level 58 now too, not that i engage in combat at all, tbh sometimes its easy to forget that there is any fighting in the game at all
BDO has no PvE end game, so I don't find it rewarding when the grind has virtually no applicability in material progression in the game. The grind is worthless, so I'm not sure how it can be the most rewarding.
The combat system is decent for those who like action combat. I think that's what you're likely most responding to.
The grind in BDO is less rewarding than that of Lineage II - which isn't saying much, at all.
The only game where the grind doesn't totally ruin the game for me is PvE servers on Wurm Online. Given there is no direct competition with other players I take the approach of "Play the game and the levels will come." It's one of the few games I can do this and actually enjoy it given it's still fun to play alongside your friends who have different levels in different stats.
If the game makes me care about my levels through:
A. Putting me in direct competition with other players. B. Making it unenjoyable to play alongside players who are far stronger or weaker.
Then the presence of a grind will mostly or even entirely ruin the game for me because it will become my sole focus of playing the game until it's "over". In other words I just keep grinding until I burn out so I can enjoy the content I hope to enjoy someday.
By the same right I voted Runescape as the best one there because while Runescape has a lot of content affected by the grind, it can also be fun to do stuff with friends of different levels.
I would have to go with WoW, after the class balancing patches were complete.
Wait, wasn't that patch just added recently? It takes a rather long time to see if a game has perfect grind, this is like voting which expansion is best the day after a new one launched (the new one will win or at least score way higher then after a few months).
EQ1, because you accomplished the grind while socializing with other humans. That, and the fact that each piece of gear you obtained actually meant something and might be with you for months, if not over a year.
This.
Games these days aren't worth grinding in, because of the constant gear resets. You never get to enjoy your progression, because the developers are always destroying your work in an effort to force feed you the expansions or newest content.
Remember when you could be in a progression guild in EQ, without having to be on a progression server? That was a thing... for YEARS. New guilds would form and work their way through the content starting at Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox, until they caught up nad then work from there, in an attempt to make sure all players in the guild started from the same baseline.
This is virtually impossible in games like World of Warcraft, FFXIV, or ESO. The entire dynamics of these games, Socially and in terms of content design and character advancement, have changed.
I don't think we'll see a game like this for a while. I don't think Pantheon will bring this back, since they don't seem to be putting much emphasis on raiding.
Also, the players in MMORPGs these days aren't like the players that were in EQ. Gaming culture was different. General (world) culture was different as well. The way people interact with each other differs, these days, and we are no longer able to suspend reality in these games because they are commodity. This is why Role Playing Communities have largely died out in MMORPGs.
There is a reason WHY games were social back in the days of EQ1 - because majority of players didn't know anyone else online and the games were made to foster relationships in game to compensate.
Look at the games today - guilds go into games with "pre-formed" members - all top guilds do this. There are all kinds of pre-formed social media and discord groups to help guilds move from game to game.
Guilds who will dominate in Pantheon will all have pretty much full rosters before launch - there is no need to "foster friendships in game" - when majority already have friends and means of communicating via discord and other social tools outside of game.
This is a critical point that many fail to consider - the playerbase has changed, the social tools have changed - any "social" game like Pantheon will not offer the same experience as EQ1 - not even close, because many players will already be parts of social groups - so a game full of "noobs" - which is what EQ1 was at launch - that won't ever happen again.
This, so much this. Everything online these days is a social space, you don't need an MMO for that anymore. The new frontier is long gone, its just another genre to dip into instead of a commitment. And thats not necessarily a bad thing tbh.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Best, most rewarding Grind, i would have to say Black Desert Online, i started fairly early on as a trader, and i found driving the wagons around trading in the cities/villages a fairly relaxing and enjoyable activity, it also gained me a fair amount of silver, now i've progressed to using an Epheria Sailboat and my trading activities have increased dramatically, the Port Ratt to Velia run easily nets me over 18 million silver per trip, and if i make a run to Ratt with calpheon timber crates it is often over 24 million silver, well the best part of it really is the Sea voyages, the sound of the waves, and the occasional nine shark having a go as i go past is kind of fun, as is dealing with phantom ships, almost level 58 now too, not that i engage in combat at all, tbh sometimes its easy to forget that there is any fighting in the game at all
BDO has no PvE end game, so I don't find it rewarding when the grind has virtually no applicability in material progression in the game. The grind is worthless, so I'm not sure how it can be the most rewarding.
The combat system is decent for those who like action combat. I think that's what you're likely most responding to.
The grind in BDO is less rewarding than that of Lineage II - which isn't saying much, at all.
I don't think you understand the game, to say that BDO doesn't have any PVE end game kind of ignores all the types of PVE activity there is that constitutes 'end game' what i am doing can easily be construed to be 'end game' i think the problem is that you likely only see certain activities as being PVE end game activities when that is a limitation that does not apply to BDO.
EQ1, because you accomplished the grind while socializing with other humans. That, and the fact that each piece of gear you obtained actually meant something and might be with you for months, if not over a year.
This.
Games these days aren't worth grinding in, because of the constant gear resets. You never get to enjoy your progression, because the developers are always destroying your work in an effort to force feed you the expansions or newest content.
Remember when you could be in a progression guild in EQ, without having to be on a progression server? That was a thing... for YEARS. New guilds would form and work their way through the content starting at Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox, until they caught up nad then work from there, in an attempt to make sure all players in the guild started from the same baseline.
This is virtually impossible in games like World of Warcraft, FFXIV, or ESO. The entire dynamics of these games, Socially and in terms of content design and character advancement, have changed.
I don't think we'll see a game like this for a while. I don't think Pantheon will bring this back, since they don't seem to be putting much emphasis on raiding.
Also, the players in MMORPGs these days aren't like the players that were in EQ. Gaming culture was different. General (world) culture was different as well. The way people interact with each other differs, these days, and we are no longer able to suspend reality in these games because they are commodity. This is why Role Playing Communities have largely died out in MMORPGs.
There is a reason WHY games were social back in the days of EQ1 - because majority of players didn't know anyone else online and the games were made to foster relationships in game to compensate.
Look at the games today - guilds go into games with "pre-formed" members - all top guilds do this. There are all kinds of pre-formed social media and discord groups to help guilds move from game to game.
Guilds who will dominate in Pantheon will all have pretty much full rosters before launch - there is no need to "foster friendships in game" - when majority already have friends and means of communicating via discord and other social tools outside of game.
This is a critical point that many fail to consider - the playerbase has changed, the social tools have changed - any "social" game like Pantheon will not offer the same experience as EQ1 - not even close, because many players will already be parts of social groups - so a game full of "noobs" - which is what EQ1 was at launch - that won't ever happen again.
I think it has less to do with Guild Rosters and more to do with the dependence on others to achieve your personal objectives. Games like WoW no longer require you to interact with others to complete a dungeon. You simply queue up and random groups are put together. People barely speak to each other, they just zone in and rush through the content.
Because games like EQ made you rely on consistent extended group sessions to achieve your own personal goals, it indirectly enforced a level of social interaction that is not "necessary" in today's games. Also, the group content was designed differently than WoW, because the way the leveling and farming process works in that game is fundamentally different from WoW (and it's ilk).
These days, you can just join a group finder and PUG even the Mythic Dungeons in WoW. The game pulls in players from different servers, so reputation doesn't mean as much as it used to. You don't really get to know players, and it isn't worth getting to know many of those players since they aren't even on your server. Modern MMORPGs are also too big to have the type of efficient Guide + GM system that EverQuest had.
Even in EQ, we had TeamSpeak since 2001. Guilds in MMORPGs have always been cliquey. This has always been the case, even in EQ since it's release ;-)
Nothing you're mentioning is really "critical." Most of the social tools available to today's MMORPG players have been available to EQ players since 2001, at least. We were TeamSpeak back then. We had forums. Guilds had set raid teams in game, especially after they started capping the number of people allowed in raid zones. But you still had to spend a considerable amount of time out of raid getting things done - like grinding AAs and working on long epic quest lines, camping specific items from specific MOBs, farming specific MOBs for specific items, etc.
These things required group play, and the lack of "cross realm grouping" meant that the social dynamics of the game were fundamentally different when layered on top of the base design and balancing of the game itself.
Having a bad personal reputation in EQ was/is a lot more costly than it is in WoW, for example.
Games like Lineage II were a lot more similar to EverQuest in this respect.
A lot of the newer MMORPGs have taken cues from WoW's content design, so they have attracted similar player demographics and those players have brought their attitudes with them - shaping the culture within those gaming communities.
Best, most rewarding Grind, i would have to say Black Desert Online, i started fairly early on as a trader, and i found driving the wagons around trading in the cities/villages a fairly relaxing and enjoyable activity, it also gained me a fair amount of silver, now i've progressed to using an Epheria Sailboat and my trading activities have increased dramatically, the Port Ratt to Velia run easily nets me over 18 million silver per trip, and if i make a run to Ratt with calpheon timber crates it is often over 24 million silver, well the best part of it really is the Sea voyages, the sound of the waves, and the occasional nine shark having a go as i go past is kind of fun, as is dealing with phantom ships, almost level 58 now too, not that i engage in combat at all, tbh sometimes its easy to forget that there is any fighting in the game at all
BDO has no PvE end game, so I don't find it rewarding when the grind has virtually no applicability in material progression in the game. The grind is worthless, so I'm not sure how it can be the most rewarding.
The combat system is decent for those who like action combat. I think that's what you're likely most responding to.
The grind in BDO is less rewarding than that of Lineage II - which isn't saying much, at all.
I don't think you understand the game, to say that BDO doesn't have any PVE end game kind of ignores all the types of PVE activity there is that constitutes 'end game' what i am doing can easily be construed to be 'end game' i think the problem is that you likely only see certain activities as being PVE end game activities when that is a limitation that does not apply to BDO.
It has no PvE end game, so I'm not sure how I can "ignore all the types of PvE activity there is, that constitutes 'end game'". This statement makes literally no sense. End-game is an goal withing the content framework of the game. It signifies a pinnacle of progression in a game. Simply being <X> Level and being able to kill a [very] few World Bosses for that level range does not constitute a PvE end game.
Black Desert Online is a PvP game. The End game is the PvP and Mass PvP Seiges that are run in the game. That's the whole point of it. The rest is just set up as a framework for progression towards that goal (i.e. gearing up, leveling up, etc.). This is needed to keep players playing, otherwise they will only log in for sieges, the way you only play Street Fighter when you want to play a match...
I've played BDO. It's not a PvE game. I know that may sound awkward to you, but that's because you are missing the forest through the trees. The other activity is there as a distraction because otherwise the game would lack in depth and have virtually no replayability outside of the PvP and PvP events - like Lineage II. This is why Korean PvP MMOs tend to be some of the grindiest games out there. To delay progression and tie character power to elements of the game they make you PvE for, but that is not the actual point of the game. It's just a hurdle en route to the actual goal.
In other words, the PvE that does exist is designed to be a distraction, time sink, and throttle to force more playtime out of you, and sometimes (often) more money out of you.
This is why I've never really understood the point of PvE Clans in games like Lineage II. The whole point of the game is to deal with the PvE to enable yourself to participate in the server (now cross-server politics), and BDO is cut from the same mold... Just with better graphics engine and combat system.
It's a good game for that purpose. But it has almost nothing for an actual PvE'r, as there is no point PvEing in BDO if you don't want to PvP (it's actual end-game).
This is not really subjective. The game is fairly blatant about it. Many people have complained about the lack of a PvE end game in BDO, but they simply don't have a clue what kind of game they're actually playing - to be frank.
Runescape hands down. You have so many skills to grind through, and you get to do very different things to grind every skill. After 18 years I've still yet to see another MMO quite like that.
Best, most rewarding Grind, i would have to say Black Desert Online, i started fairly early on as a trader, and i found driving the wagons around trading in the cities/villages a fairly relaxing and enjoyable activity, it also gained me a fair amount of silver, now i've progressed to using an Epheria Sailboat and my trading activities have increased dramatically, the Port Ratt to Velia run easily nets me over 18 million silver per trip, and if i make a run to Ratt with calpheon timber crates it is often over 24 million silver, well the best part of it really is the Sea voyages, the sound of the waves, and the occasional nine shark having a go as i go past is kind of fun, as is dealing with phantom ships, almost level 58 now too, not that i engage in combat at all, tbh sometimes its easy to forget that there is any fighting in the game at all
BDO has no PvE end game, so I don't find it rewarding when the grind has virtually no applicability in material progression in the game. The grind is worthless, so I'm not sure how it can be the most rewarding.
The combat system is decent for those who like action combat. I think that's what you're likely most responding to.
The grind in BDO is less rewarding than that of Lineage II - which isn't saying much, at all.
I don't think you understand the game, to say that BDO doesn't have any PVE end game kind of ignores all the types of PVE activity there is that constitutes 'end game' what i am doing can easily be construed to be 'end game' i think the problem is that you likely only see certain activities as being PVE end game activities when that is a limitation that does not apply to BDO.
It has no PvE end game, so I'm not sure how I can "ignore all the types of PvE activity there is, that constitutes 'end game'". This statement makes literally no sense. End-game is an goal withing the content framework of the game. It signifies a pinnacle of progression in a game. Simply being <X> Level and being able to kill a [very] few World Bosses for that level range does not constitute a PvE end game.
Black Desert Online is a PvP game. The End game is the PvP and Mass PvP Seiges that are run in the game. That's the whole point of it. The rest is just set up as a framework for progression towards that goal (i.e. gearing up, leveling up, etc.). This is needed to keep players playing, otherwise they will only log in for sieges, the way you only play Street Fighter when you want to play a match...
I've played BDO. It's not a PvE game. I know that may sound awkward to you, but that's because you are missing the forest through the trees. The other activity is there as a distraction because otherwise the game would lack in depth and have virtually no replayability outside of the PvP and PvP events - like Lineage II. This is why Korean PvP MMOs tend to be some of the grindiest games out there. To delay progression and tie character power to elements of the game they make you PvE for, but that is not the actual point of the game. It's just a hurdle en route to the actual goal.
In other words, the PvE that does exist is designed to be a distraction, time sink, and throttle to force more playtime out of you, and sometimes (often) more money out of you.
This is why I've never really understood the point of PvE Clans in games like Lineage II. The whole point of the game is to deal with the PvE to enable yourself to participate in the server (now cross-server politics), and BDO is cut from the same mold... Just with better graphics engine and combat system.
It's a good game for that purpose. But it has almost nothing for an actual PvE'r, as there is no point PvEing in BDO if you don't want to PvP (it's actual end-game).
This is not really subjective. The game is fairly blatant about it. Many people have complained about the lack of a PvE end game in BDO, but they simply don't have a clue what kind of game they're actually playing - to be frank.
BDO does support some PVP sure, there are guilds that engage in node wars all the time, but its just one type of activity, it does not define the entire game, i think you are deliberately ignoring all the PVE types of activities the game supports, my own included as i very obviously am not engaging in PVP at all, and if you think that i am the only player to play this way, you would be mistaken, as a primarily life skill of Trading the struggle to maintain a position in the top 5 for the server is very competitive, and while i am sure the top PVP'ers know each others names, so too do the top Traders, as for Kakoa forcing more money out of me, well i do buy the vip package once a month, its the equivalent of a subscription and i certainly don't begrudge paying that, not considering how many hours of gameplay i get out of the game on a daily basis. I think you however are confusing the lack of raids in the game as a lack of pve content, i see the same kind of thing when people complain that Eve Online lacks PVE content tbh, what they fail to see is that the game itself provides the tools for you to create your own end game content. Mine is that i am a trader, i compete with other traders for the title of the best traders on the server, to that end i have built my own Epheria Sailboat, which took a few weeks and a fair amount of resources and effort, but in doing so i have expanded the scope of my gameplay, and honestly, sailing is kind of fun even if half the sea creatures are trying to destroy your ship. Either way, what i am doing is PVE, it is End game, and it is fun, for me, and its just one example of the types of PVE gameplay the game has to offer.
Best, most rewarding Grind, i would have to say Black Desert Online, i started fairly early on as a trader, and i found driving the wagons around trading in the cities/villages a fairly relaxing and enjoyable activity, it also gained me a fair amount of silver, now i've progressed to using an Epheria Sailboat and my trading activities have increased dramatically, the Port Ratt to Velia run easily nets me over 18 million silver per trip, and if i make a run to Ratt with calpheon timber crates it is often over 24 million silver, well the best part of it really is the Sea voyages, the sound of the waves, and the occasional nine shark having a go as i go past is kind of fun, as is dealing with phantom ships, almost level 58 now too, not that i engage in combat at all, tbh sometimes its easy to forget that there is any fighting in the game at all
I love this description and exactly how I was playing too I mean the trading part. I did the same thing in BDO. I never fought another player and I farmed, breed horses, made ships and crates oh god I miss this game.
I agree @Phry people have such a narrow description of what constitutes PvE and dismiss the activities that we spent hours in BDO doing like I used to, travelling around in the wagons I made and selling things from town to town. Planting various crops and enjoying the scenery and the simple pleasure of seeing the labour of the workers come to fruition. I thought the mobs just stood there and I never bothered with the combat except as a means to level but running around opening the nodes was fun as hell as I almost died various times. Since the prices fluctuated I used to check the prices every time and grow different things to sell or make different crates of raw materials depending on the market supply and demand which is dependent on other players activities in trading too.
I think BDO offers such scope seldom seen in other games and although the normal PvE activities may be absent that does not mean it does not fulfil that part of the game in other ways.
In recent memory, ESO. There isn't a grind at all because you get experience for anything/everything. Having that flexibility goes a LONG way with avoiding feeling like a chore grinding the same things for months like BDO.
UO has the best MMO Grind Reward system. The reason I say this is because who every played UO in 1999 to 2003 Pre Pub 16 will tell you. You started off killing rats in a sewer to move on to killing in a grave yard to doing dungeons. You were on a journey and at rarely did you ever grind to grind. You played the game and knew that some days your Provok will only get .1 of a percent, this didnt mean you focused only on skilling up. You just did what you wanted to do like ran the shadow wyrm room made a shit done of gold and did something else.
To me UO never felt like a grind because I played to have a good time not to rush to become the most powerful player in the game.
FFXi similar to UO and EQ1 and perhaps the only game with zero hand holding and more options than running linear zones.Did it feel like a grind at higher levels,yes if all your looking at is levels,i don't,i was there to have fun grouping with other players and enjoying the various skills that each class had.There lied another reason,you were not locked into altaholics to enjoy other classes.
The goal was long term and not a grind to that next level because there really was no freebie loot system and crafting was designed to benefit long term as well.
Most all the games now including my beloved FFXI have turned into a linear push to end game and that is sad because everyone is grinding ONLY for the reason to get to end game.These modern designs make npc's pointless,level numbers pointless,all gear before end game pointless,quests have always been pointless and with so much focus designed around soloing,even your class is pointless.Scaling,yep even the mobs are pointless,might as well just call them mob A102569 because they have no true lore or meaning when they scale.
I think some posters missed the point of the question>>>GRIND.yes you might have liked some systems inside other games but when the MAIN focus to advance your player is questing or killing,you have to determine weather they were pointless mechanics just to get to end game or actually FUN and did they promote the aspect of MMO/online/login screen?
I see how players play these games,99.9% of the time it most certainly is a grind to RACE to end game.That is a shallow reason to play a mmorpg at least imo it is.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Most all the games now including my beloved FFXI have turned into a linear push to end game and that is sad because everyone is grinding ONLY for the reason to get to end game.These modern designs make npc's pointless,level numbers pointless,all gear before end game pointless,quests have always been pointless and with so much focus designed around soloing,even your class is pointless.Scaling,yep even the mobs are pointless,might as well just call them mob A102569 because they have no true lore or meaning when they scale.
I think some posters missed the point of the question>>>GRIND.yes you might have liked some systems inside other games but when the MAIN focus to advance your player is questing or killing,you have to determine weather they were pointless mechanics just to get to end game or actually FUN and did they promote the aspect of MMO/online/login screen?
I see how players play these games,99.9% of the time it most certainly is a grind to RACE to end game.That is a shallow reason to play a mmorpg at least imo it is.
I just want to query this a little bit.
From a veterans point of view, it certainly feels like most games have become pointless before endgame and that this is the goal of the developers - to get you to endgame.
However, that directly contradicts all the actual data we have coming out of MMOs. Every MMO I've seen that releases data about player activities states that only about 10% of the player base engages in endgame activities. The overwhelming majority just does the leveling part, then either restarts on an alt or jumps to a new game. The endgame is definitely not the focus for most players.
This also seems to be backed up by the development focus. Developers aren't building long-term systems, in depth combat mechanics or tons of endgame content. Most are pretty light on the endgame content.
So, even though leveling is ridiculously quick, easy and kinda pointless, it doesn't appear to be that way in order to get us to endgame quicker, it seems to be that way because that is what the largest portion of the market wants. The largest portion of the market basically just wants an average single-player RPG that they can occasionally team up with their friends in. They aren't racing to endgame, they don't give a shit about endgame, they just enjoy working through quests and getting continual upgrades.
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Comments
There might be primarily two camps of gamers, maybe more. One is story/character driven. They have to be led by a constant stream of story and character dilemmas. The other is more reflexive and action driven. They need a constant stream of stimulation and environmental interaction. These two camps of players can crossover into the other, forming a third camp of independents who mix and match the traits of each. (There may be other camps or other traits, don't get me wrong.)
Look no further than the reasoning behind Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale. The designers intentionally made Baldur's Gate 50/50 story/combat. PST was 60/40 story/combat. Icewind Dale was 40/60 story/combat. These numbers might be slightly off, but the point is they knew evne back then there was a divide in their audience, so the produced these different games to test the waters. Ultimatley, I think they concluded Baldur's Gate 2 was their best product. This is no surprise, since it's 50/50. However, the thing to take from this is there're extremes too. Some players will like games with mostly combat, others will like games with mostly story.
Games these days aren't worth grinding in, because of the constant gear resets. You never get to enjoy your progression, because the developers are always destroying your work in an effort to force feed you the expansions or newest content.
Remember when you could be in a progression guild in EQ, without having to be on a progression server? That was a thing... for YEARS. New guilds would form and work their way through the content starting at Lord Nagafen and Lady Vox, until they caught up nad then work from there, in an attempt to make sure all players in the guild started from the same baseline.
I don't think we'll see a game like this for a while. I don't think Pantheon will bring this back, since they don't seem to be putting much emphasis on raiding.
Also, the players in MMORPGs these days aren't like the players that were in EQ. Gaming culture was different. General (world) culture was different as well. The way people interact with each other differs, these days, and we are no longer able to suspend reality in these games because they are commodity. This is why Role Playing Communities have largely died out in MMORPGs.
The combat system is decent for those who like action combat. I think that's what you're likely most responding to.
The grind in BDO is less rewarding than that of Lineage II - which isn't saying much, at all.
If the game makes me care about my levels through:
A. Putting me in direct competition with other players.
B. Making it unenjoyable to play alongside players who are far stronger or weaker.
Then the presence of a grind will mostly or even entirely ruin the game for me because it will become my sole focus of playing the game until it's "over". In other words I just keep grinding until I burn out so I can enjoy the content I hope to enjoy someday.
By the same right I voted Runescape as the best one there because while Runescape has a lot of content affected by the grind, it can also be fun to do stuff with friends of different levels.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Because games like EQ made you rely on consistent extended group sessions to achieve your own personal goals, it indirectly enforced a level of social interaction that is not "necessary" in today's games. Also, the group content was designed differently than WoW, because the way the leveling and farming process works in that game is fundamentally different from WoW (and it's ilk).
These days, you can just join a group finder and PUG even the Mythic Dungeons in WoW. The game pulls in players from different servers, so reputation doesn't mean as much as it used to. You don't really get to know players, and it isn't worth getting to know many of those players since they aren't even on your server. Modern MMORPGs are also too big to have the type of efficient Guide + GM system that EverQuest had.
Even in EQ, we had TeamSpeak since 2001. Guilds in MMORPGs have always been cliquey. This has always been the case, even in EQ since it's release ;-)
Nothing you're mentioning is really "critical." Most of the social tools available to today's MMORPG players have been available to EQ players since 2001, at least. We were TeamSpeak back then. We had forums. Guilds had set raid teams in game, especially after they started capping the number of people allowed in raid zones. But you still had to spend a considerable amount of time out of raid getting things done - like grinding AAs and working on long epic quest lines, camping specific items from specific MOBs, farming specific MOBs for specific items, etc.
These things required group play, and the lack of "cross realm grouping" meant that the social dynamics of the game were fundamentally different when layered on top of the base design and balancing of the game itself.
Having a bad personal reputation in EQ was/is a lot more costly than it is in WoW, for example.
Games like Lineage II were a lot more similar to EverQuest in this respect.
A lot of the newer MMORPGs have taken cues from WoW's content design, so they have attracted similar player demographics and those players have brought their attitudes with them - shaping the culture within those gaming communities.
It has no PvE end game, so I'm not sure how I can "ignore all the types of PvE activity there is, that constitutes 'end game'". This statement makes literally no sense. End-game is an goal withing the content framework of the game. It signifies a pinnacle of progression in a game. Simply being <X> Level and being able to kill a [very] few World Bosses for that level range does not constitute a PvE end game.
Black Desert Online is a PvP game. The End game is the PvP and Mass PvP Seiges that are run in the game. That's the whole point of it. The rest is just set up as a framework for progression towards that goal (i.e. gearing up, leveling up, etc.). This is needed to keep players playing, otherwise they will only log in for sieges, the way you only play Street Fighter when you want to play a match...
I've played BDO. It's not a PvE game. I know that may sound awkward to you, but that's because you are missing the forest through the trees. The other activity is there as a distraction because otherwise the game would lack in depth and have virtually no replayability outside of the PvP and PvP events - like Lineage II. This is why Korean PvP MMOs tend to be some of the grindiest games out there. To delay progression and tie character power to elements of the game they make you PvE for, but that is not the actual point of the game. It's just a hurdle en route to the actual goal.
In other words, the PvE that does exist is designed to be a distraction, time sink, and throttle to force more playtime out of you, and sometimes (often) more money out of you.
This is why I've never really understood the point of PvE Clans in games like Lineage II. The whole point of the game is to deal with the PvE to enable yourself to participate in the server (now cross-server politics), and BDO is cut from the same mold... Just with better graphics engine and combat system.
It's a good game for that purpose. But it has almost nothing for an actual PvE'r, as there is no point PvEing in BDO if you don't want to PvP (it's actual end-game).
This is not really subjective. The game is fairly blatant about it. Many people have complained about the lack of a PvE end game in BDO, but they simply don't have a clue what kind of game they're actually playing - to be frank.
I agree @Phry people have such a narrow description of what constitutes PvE and dismiss the activities that we spent hours in BDO doing like I used to, travelling around in the wagons I made and selling things from town to town. Planting various crops and enjoying the scenery and the simple pleasure of seeing the labour of the workers come to fruition. I thought the mobs just stood there and I never bothered with the combat except as a means to level but running around opening the nodes was fun as hell as I almost died various times. Since the prices fluctuated I used to check the prices every time and grow different things to sell or make different crates of raw materials depending on the market supply and demand which is dependent on other players activities in trading too.
I think BDO offers such scope seldom seen in other games and although the normal PvE activities may be absent that does not mean it does not fulfil that part of the game in other ways.
To me UO never felt like a grind because I played to have a good time not to rush to become the most powerful player in the game.
The goal was long term and not a grind to that next level because there really was no freebie loot system and crafting was designed to benefit long term as well.
Most all the games now including my beloved FFXI have turned into a linear push to end game and that is sad because everyone is grinding ONLY for the reason to get to end game.These modern designs make npc's pointless,level numbers pointless,all gear before end game pointless,quests have always been pointless and with so much focus designed around soloing,even your class is pointless.Scaling,yep even the mobs are pointless,might as well just call them mob A102569 because they have no true lore or meaning when they scale.
I think some posters missed the point of the question>>>GRIND.yes you might have liked some systems inside other games but when the MAIN focus to advance your player is questing or killing,you have to determine weather they were pointless mechanics just to get to end game or actually FUN and did they promote the aspect of MMO/online/login screen?
I see how players play these games,99.9% of the time it most certainly is a grind to RACE to end game.That is a shallow reason to play a mmorpg at least imo it is.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
From a veterans point of view, it certainly feels like most games have become pointless before endgame and that this is the goal of the developers - to get you to endgame.
However, that directly contradicts all the actual data we have coming out of MMOs. Every MMO I've seen that releases data about player activities states that only about 10% of the player base engages in endgame activities. The overwhelming majority just does the leveling part, then either restarts on an alt or jumps to a new game. The endgame is definitely not the focus for most players.
This also seems to be backed up by the development focus. Developers aren't building long-term systems, in depth combat mechanics or tons of endgame content. Most are pretty light on the endgame content.
So, even though leveling is ridiculously quick, easy and kinda pointless, it doesn't appear to be that way in order to get us to endgame quicker, it seems to be that way because that is what the largest portion of the market wants. The largest portion of the market basically just wants an average single-player RPG that they can occasionally team up with their friends in. They aren't racing to endgame, they don't give a shit about endgame, they just enjoy working through quests and getting continual upgrades.
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran