Q: the game is not going to be able to handle 1000 plus players on the battlefield
Caspien: We've never said that it would. In addition to which, a distributed OS like SpatialOS doesn't solve that problem. Whether we used SpatialOS or our own spatial partitioning system it's important to understand the differences between horizontal and vertical scale-out.
And hopefully this starts to sink into people's heads. Tired of starting this debate from scratch.
A game like Camelot Unchained isn't going to be able to support 1000+ players in a SMALL AREA because it's uses (their own) SpacialOS-type tech. They can support battles of that size because they are optimizing the mother f'ing shit out of their game play engine.
You need to do BOTH in order to make massive, scaling worlds with 1000-2000 player battles. Then we could stop with the moronic threads like an FPS game using SpacialOS suddenly being able to magically support hundreds or thousands of characters on a small map ...
"it dun work dat way"
Every single mmo that is made with conventional engines (unless those base engines dramatically change) on top of SpacialOS ... will work exactly like the base engine alone aside from the world getting bigger. Pretty graphics means, and always will mean, limited view distance and local player count, distance fog and poor scaling.
sayuu said: wow I had no Idea Madison Wisconsin had grown to be larger than 7,116 Square miles that's over 23 times the size of NYC!
if you try to walk across Madison WI, in the winter, be ready for a week long hike.. that you may not survive.. bring alcohol.
Luckily we know that a week in Elyria is just hours in the real world. Plus, they have horses
So just for my own understanding,.. a few hours in real life equals a week of game time, you said it would only take a few hours to cross the land masses, this means, in comparison, if the game takes a few hours to transverse from one side of the starting contentment to another either via continuous running or on horse.. that would be like akin to the Stating Land Mass being the size of the North American Continent.
That's pretty big.
Supposedly it should take 2 RL days to walk across the entire map. That might of changed since the map was shrunk slightly, but not by much.
I would hope that if that is the case, then Time in game, is in reality just a cosmetic thing to chart character age, and has no real game impact.
Otherwise.. Wagering that a "week" is 4 hours real time, that would make 2 real days, equal to 12 weeks..or.. put another way.. 3 months, or a full season of time. That is a massive amount of travel time, at even a slow walk of 4 mph, that is still 12,000 miles, or put another way, half the circumference of our planet (for reference, America is only 2,600 miles across)
Yah.. not seeing that happen.
But you know.. Madison Wisconsin is a really great place.
No. A day in Elyria is about 2.8 RL hours. A week is about 20 hours. A season is 2-8 RL days, with an average of 4 days (although I think they said there could be world events that bring about long winters and droughts. These things can be predicted by people who know astrology.
So, Slapshot is totally off the mark with a week being a few hours. That's good at least. Still an in-game week being less then a full real day.
But, lets go with an in-game day being 2.8 real hours, so, 48 real hours equates to 17 in-game days ( Just under 2 1/2 weeks of in-game time passing) (or for the sake of math we will say 2 real days equates to 400 in-game hours of travel time)..
So, Depending on the means of travel, Walking vs Running vs Horse, This can be anywhere from 1,600 miles to 8,000 miles in a single direction, depending on mode.
That's huge.
To put all this talk of land mass and size and player base in a real world perspective, Madison WI, has a population of 250,000 people and is only 94 square miles, of which 17 square miles is water.
Still don't recommend trying to just walk across it in the winter time. Take short trips.. store to store and rent a room with working heat.
(edited to clear the time issues up, in relation to real time equating to game time, for those that would need it)
Post edited by Ungood on
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
sayuu said: wow I had no Idea Madison Wisconsin had grown to be larger than 7,116 Square miles that's over 23 times the size of NYC!
if you try to walk across Madison WI, in the winter, be ready for a week long hike.. that you may not survive.. bring alcohol.
Luckily we know that a week in Elyria is just hours in the real world. Plus, they have horses
So just for my own understanding,.. a few hours in real life equals a week of game time, you said it would only take a few hours to cross the land masses, this means, in comparison, if the game takes a few hours to transverse from one side of the starting contentment to another either via continuous running or on horse.. that would be like akin to the Stating Land Mass being the size of the North American Continent.
That's pretty big.
Supposedly it should take 2 RL days to walk across the entire map. That might of changed since the map was shrunk slightly, but not by much.
I would hope that if that is the case, then Time in game, is in reality just a cosmetic thing to chart character age, and has no real game impact.
Otherwise.. Wagering that a "week" is 4 hours real time, that would make 2 real days, equal to 12 weeks..or.. put another way.. 3 months, or a full season of time. That is a massive amount of travel time, at even a slow walk of 4 mph, that is still 12,000 miles, or put another way, half the circumference of our planet (for reference, America is only 2,600 miles across)
Yah.. not seeing that happen.
But you know.. Madison Wisconsin is a really great place.
No. A day in Elyria is about 2.8 RL hours. A week is about 20 hours. A season is 2-8 RL days, with an average of 4 days (although I think they said there could be world events that bring about long winters and droughts. These things can be predicted by people who know astrology.
So, Slapshot is totally off the mark with a week being a few hours. That's good at least. Still a week being less then a full day.
So lets go with a day being 2.8 hours, Depending on the means of travel, Slow walk vs Running vs horse, 48 hours, 17 days ( Just under 2 1/2 weeks) (or for the sake of math 400 hours of travel time).. can be anywhere from 1,600 miles to 8,000 miles in a single direction.
To put all this talk of land mass and size and player base in a real world perspective, Madison WI, has a population of 250,000 people and is only 94 square miles, of which 17 square miles is water.
Still don't recommend trying to just walk across it in the winter time. Take short trips.. store to store and rent a room with working heat.
Too funny. If you actually read my direct quote to you about the week... I said it would take hours. You added the few. Where I said few was earlier that in my expectation that you will be able to traverse the world in a few hours. When the game launches we will see. I do appreciate your fascination with me though.
Again... this "continent" is a little bigger than the state of Connecticut. The 3rd smallest state in the Union. That is split up into 6 Kingdoms. Each of these Kingdoms could have 16.67k characters (100k/6). That means 33k citizens if 2 Kingdoms go to war... which is supposed to be a main way for the Buy 2 King people to lose their titles and lands.
If these 2 Kingdoms are sharing a border... it will likely not take very long to get from a Capital City to this border.
Again, for perspective according to the "Parcels and Settlements" thread... there will be an average of 12 Duchys each containing 24 Counties. That means 288 Dukes and Counts alone. For one Kingdom. I imagine when a King calls his Banners he would expect his Dukes and Counts to come to the fight and bring some men with them no? Imagine Each Count simply answered the call with 5 additional men... Even if some these were NPCs there should need to be some mechanism for summoning the banners right?
It will be interesting to see how this is handled. Will the Kings need to agree to certain battle parameters? Your best 100 men vs mine and we meet at X location?
Will simply having a thousand of your members show up in an attack location become the standard "defense"? This was a tactic used by Hyperion in Darkfall. They simply caused massive server lag which made battles futile. This just resulted in recruiting "off-peak" folks to do the sieging in the middle of work days etc...
This is not a new issue... but one that we should learn from history and apply those learnings to avoid repeats. @Ungood as you say you haven't bought the game nor really researched it.. I'm really more interested in how @Dleatherus or @mystichaze think Kingdom vs Kingdom wars will play out. Being of the "Nobility" they may already have had Discord discussions with other kingdoms and have a better idea on how this will play out than I do from just reading the Dev Blogs and Forums. I'm honestly interested in their thoughts on how Kingdom vs Kingdom wars will be handled by the server.. or even world wars...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
sayuu said: wow I had no Idea Madison Wisconsin had grown to be larger than 7,116 Square miles that's over 23 times the size of NYC!
if you try to walk across Madison WI, in the winter, be ready for a week long hike.. that you may not survive.. bring alcohol.
Luckily we know that a week in Elyria is just hours in the real world. Plus, they have horses
So just for my own understanding,.. a few hours in real life equals a week of game time, you said it would only take a few hours to cross the land masses, this means, in comparison, if the game takes a few hours to transverse from one side of the starting contentment to another either via continuous running or on horse.. that would be like akin to the Stating Land Mass being the size of the North American Continent.
That's pretty big.
Supposedly it should take 2 RL days to walk across the entire map. That might of changed since the map was shrunk slightly, but not by much.
I would hope that if that is the case, then Time in game, is in reality just a cosmetic thing to chart character age, and has no real game impact.
Otherwise.. Wagering that a "week" is 4 hours real time, that would make 2 real days, equal to 12 weeks..or.. put another way.. 3 months, or a full season of time. That is a massive amount of travel time, at even a slow walk of 4 mph, that is still 12,000 miles, or put another way, half the circumference of our planet (for reference, America is only 2,600 miles across)
Yah.. not seeing that happen.
But you know.. Madison Wisconsin is a really great place.
No. A day in Elyria is about 2.8 RL hours. A week is about 20 hours. A season is 2-8 RL days, with an average of 4 days (although I think they said there could be world events that bring about long winters and droughts. These things can be predicted by people who know astrology.
So, Slapshot is totally off the mark with a week being a few hours. That's good at least. Still an in-game week being less then a full real day.
But, lets go with an in-game day being 2.8 real hours, so, 48 real hours equates to 17 in-game days ( Just under 2 1/2 weeks of in-game time passing) (or for the sake of math we will say 2 real days equates to 400 in-game hours of travel time)..
So, Depending on the means of travel, Walking vs Running vs Horse, This can be anywhere from 1,600 miles to 8,000 miles in a single direction, depending on mode.
That's huge.
To put all this talk of land mass and size and player base in a real world perspective, Madison WI, has a population of 250,000 people and is only 94 square miles, of which 17 square miles is water.
Still don't recommend trying to just walk across it in the winter time. Take short trips.. store to store and rent a room with working heat.
(edited to clear the time issues up, in relation to real time equating to game time, for those that would need it)
Slapshot misinformed? No way!
But yeah, weather should be a big deal, and so should food. If outside civilization isn't highly dangerous then the devs didn't do their jobs right. Even traveling from a mining site to a nearby city will probably require mercenaries to protect your cargo.
And yeah traveling in the cold winter without proper clothing, or other necessary survival skills (at least people in your group with these survival skills) will also lead to an inevitable death.
The map is ridiculously huge, and to be honest a lot of people will not be moving outside of their county much. A farmer isn't going to travel 3 kingdoms over to sell his wheat.
One thing I notice a lot in these forums (and with some on the CoE forums too) is people seem to look at this game at a macro level. Like who your king is, the kingdom your in is going to be irrelevant for 95% of people.
Like a kingdom on kingdom all at war may never happen, but warrign with your neighboring county? Trying to take out the duke above you? That's going to be where most of the conflict lies in my opinion.
And BTW "kingdom wars" as SLapshot says, is not the only way to lose your title. You can also have you and your heirs murdered. And the war doesn't have to be kingdom vs kingdom. It could be something as simple as a few of your dukes revolt and push you out of power. Or it might just be these kingdoms split off. A lot of people think in a year the amount of kingdoms will double because of civil wars, and people splitting off.
Lets just face the fact....COE is just another flash in the pan game that we all, once again, thought would be great....but turns out it's just another same old same old.
Another game that will have a big rush at launch, lose half their player base in the first 2 months, and be down to 10k players at 6 months.
At this point, we might as well all jump on the Star Citizen train. At least that games absurd promises are slowly starting to take shape, and might even be fully realized in like.....7 years.
I'd rather have an insanely stupid wait for something new and promised than keep getting behind these games that say one thing, and then 1 year later go, "Nevermind, we can't do that because we don't have the tech...everything that made us unique will now not be in the game".
Size of a world is irrelevant if you can get coast to coast in no time. What matters is how the world is filled, means of transportation and scope of it all. If you take 2 games with same size world and one is empty and you can traverse it in 20 minutes its meaningless. If the other game is full of life and you make a straight run and it takes 2 hours which would you rather have? Its all about how its implemented not how its described or imagined.
Slapshot1188 said: I do appreciate your fascination with me though.
In the face of the fact that you interjected yourself into a discussion I was having with someone else.. this is hilarious.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Lets just face the fact....COE is just another flash in the pan game that we all, once again, thought would be great....but turns out it's just another same old same old.
Another game that will have a big rush at launch, lose half their player base in the first 2 months, and be down to 10k players at 6 months.
At this point, we might as well all jump on the Star Citizen train. At least that games absurd promises are slowly starting to take shape, and might even be fully realized in like.....7 years.
I'd rather have an insanely stupid wait for something new and promised than keep getting behind these games that say one thing, and then 1 year later go, "Nevermind, we can't do that because we don't have the tech...everything that made us unique will now not be in the game".
Face the facts sir, this post has no facts. These are all opinions lol. Oh the irony.
Again though you guys (especially slapshot) are looking at this game at a macro level way too much. This isn't Eve. Most people will not be traveling around the map. Most people will not care what the king wants, and will be more concerned with what's going on at home. If you expected big 20k on 20k wars on CoE, I'm sorry but you've been misinformed. Most wars will be county vs county, on a much more micro level. Kingdoms will mostly fight in border skirmishes and what not.
And are people really trying to downplay the map as not being big enough lol? A complaint I've literally never heard hahahaha.
Oh and P.S. SLapshot, if you want people to not make wrong assumptions on your post I suggest using actual numbers, and not arbitrary terms. When most people hear "hours" in the way you used it, they don't think almost a full day.
Lets just face the fact....COE is just another flash in the pan game that we all, once again, thought would be great....but turns out it's just another same old same old.
Another game that will have a big rush at launch, lose half their player base in the first 2 months, and be down to 10k players at 6 months.
At this point, we might as well all jump on the Star Citizen train. At least that games absurd promises are slowly starting to take shape, and might even be fully realized in like.....7 years.
I'd rather have an insanely stupid wait for something new and promised than keep getting behind these games that say one thing, and then 1 year later go, "Nevermind, we can't do that because we don't have the tech...everything that made us unique will now not be in the game".
Face the facts sir, this post has no facts. These are all opinions lol. Oh the irony.
Had more facts than the initial COE announcement lol
At this point, the only original thing in this game left is the aging system.
Other than that we have.....written contracts.....cool, but a trade window does it just as well, nothing really ground breaking.
The massive scale of the game in both size and player count have all been back peddled to...well EQ2 WoW levels....the same numbers we've been playing with for 15 years.
At this point unless that aging system turns out to be something insane....we might as well all just head back to our respective MMO's...because this one is bringing nothing new to the table. Another clone? Seems like it.
So, Slapshot is totally off the mark with a week being a few hours. That's good at least. Still an in-game week being less then a full real day.
But, lets go with an in-game day being 2.8 real hours, so, 48 real hours equates to 17 in-game days ( Just under 2 1/2 weeks of in-game time passing) (or for the sake of math we will say 2 real days equates to 400 in-game hours of travel time)..
So, Depending on the means of travel, Walking vs Running vs Horse, This can be anywhere from 1,600 miles to 8,000 miles in a single direction, depending on mode.
That's huge.
To put all this talk of land mass and size and player base in a real world perspective, Madison WI, has a population of 250,000 people and is only 94 square miles, of which 17 square miles is water.
Still don't recommend trying to just walk across it in the winter time. Take short trips.. store to store and rent a room with working heat.
(edited to clear the time issues up, in relation to real time equating to game time, for those that would need it)
Slapshot misinformed? No way!
But yeah, weather should be a big deal, and so should food. If outside civilization isn't highly dangerous then the devs didn't do their jobs right. Even traveling from a mining site to a nearby city will probably require mercenaries to protect your cargo.
And yeah traveling in the cold winter without proper clothing, or other necessary survival skills (at least people in your group with these survival skills) will also lead to an inevitable death.
The map is ridiculously huge, and to be honest a lot of people will not be moving outside of their county much. A farmer isn't going to travel 3 kingdoms over to sell his wheat.
One thing I notice a lot in these forums (and with some on the CoE forums too) is people seem to look at this game at a macro level. Like who your king is, the kingdom your in is going to be irrelevant for 95% of people.
Like a kingdom on kingdom all at war may never happen, but warrign with your neighboring county? Trying to take out the duke above you? That's going to be where most of the conflict lies in my opinion.
And BTW "kingdom wars" as SLapshot says, is not the only way to lose your title. You can also have you and your heirs murdered. And the war doesn't have to be kingdom vs kingdom. It could be something as simple as a few of your dukes revolt and push you out of power. Or it might just be these kingdoms split off. A lot of people think in a year the amount of kingdoms will double because of civil wars, and people splitting off.
I am not even sure why anyone even gets worked up about Kingdom to Kingdom Wars, or 1000 people fights, most real wars both modern and historical, were not these large epic battles we saw in Return of King or something, but often small strike forces clashing, on various fronts.
Equally so, I would doubt there would be much in the way of Kingdom to Kingdom Wars anyway in this game given that character death is somewhat real to all the solders involved. Nothing against the King or Nobles, or what have you, but, dying in this game will cost players money, so, unlike games like CU and CF where death has little sting to it, so players are encouraged to battle and fight for the fun of it, and largely because they can.. in CoE.. the people involved in these fights, from the bottom up would need to be very motivated to get involved.
Which means, and I am just taking a guess with this, that there will be very little in the way of Fair Weather or Conscripted Troops to bulk up armies, unless the battles plan to be played out by NPC's or OPC's (which would kinda such for the person that was logged out)
Now, back to the map.
Does anyone really know how big this map is? I mean has SBS released it's size or scale?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Other than that we have.....written contracts.....cool, but a trade window does it just as well, nothing really ground breaking.
I dunno, I think a written contract guaranteeing that I get paid before I go though the effort to kill someone for the bounty, is a whole better then hoping that I can just open a trade window and expect to get money for their head.
But if how you roll is just killing people and hoping to get paid for it... do not let me stop your fun, I love doing just that.. in the MOBA's I play. Cutting someone down and then spiking them.. that is just good fashioned PvP game fun.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Lets just face the fact....COE is just another flash in the pan game that we all, once again, thought would be great....but turns out it's just another same old same old.
Another game that will have a big rush at launch, lose half their player base in the first 2 months, and be down to 10k players at 6 months.
At this point, we might as well all jump on the Star Citizen train. At least that games absurd promises are slowly starting to take shape, and might even be fully realized in like.....7 years.
I'd rather have an insanely stupid wait for something new and promised than keep getting behind these games that say one thing, and then 1 year later go, "Nevermind, we can't do that because we don't have the tech...everything that made us unique will now not be in the game".
Face the facts sir, this post has no facts. These are all opinions lol. Oh the irony.
Had more facts than the initial COE announcement lol
At this point, the only original thing in this game left is the aging system.
Other than that we have.....written contracts.....cool, but a trade window does it just as well, nothing really ground breaking.
The massive scale of the game in both size and player count have all been back peddled to...well EQ2 WoW levels....the same numbers we've been playing with for 15 years.
At this point unless that aging system turns out to be something insane....we might as well all just head back to our respective MMO's...because this one is bringing nothing new to the table. Another clone? Seems like it.
Good one. Bet you're a real hoot at the old folks home you perform stand up at.
What about their story engine? That's not unique? What about the social system? I don't know of a game that's tried to use a government system as intricate as this.
No one's stopping you from going back to whatever MMO you came from. I'm sure whatever it is though is 100% totally unique.
"There's also been additional work on world generation in 2017, with the final size of the starting continents being set to 96 km x 192 km for the NA and EU servers. If you’re counting, that’s greater than 18,000 km^2! To put that in perspective, compare the 18,000 km^2 to the 40 km^2 of Skyrim!"
"Also, while this information has never been shared before, the 96 km x 192 km accounts for just 28% of the total landmass of Elyria! Not coincidentally, 28% is the same percentage of landmass of North America and South America combined on Earth. What's that mean? It means somewhere beyond the oceans of the starting continent remains enough land to explore to account for what would be Europe, Asia, Africa, and Oceania on Earth, when compared to North/South America"
The map size should be the least of anyone's concerns. That's why I find it hilarious that people like slap are trying to find a way to complain about this lol.
Edit: ANd also you are very correct when it comes to war in this game and real life. People watching too much game of thrones and lord of the rings. And CoE has never claimed it would work any other way.
Q: the game is not going to be able to handle 1000 plus players on the battlefield
Caspien: We've never said that it would. In addition to which, a distributed OS like SpatialOS doesn't solve that problem. Whether we used SpatialOS or our own spatial partitioning system it's important to understand the differences between horizontal and vertical scale-out.
Horizontal scale-out is the ability to support a bigger world. With a bigger world you can also support more players. So long as they're spread out. As soon as players start to cluster in one location you're talking about vertical scale-out, which is a bigger problem to solve as you're fighting physics.
As players gather in the world, the load on the individual servers as well as your clients at home increases. We can procedurally sub-divide the server around that location in order to lessen the load, but at some point, there's so many processes running on individual servers that the network traffic and latency actually starts causing the simulation to perform more poorly. That's why it's easier to get 100,000 players in a single world than 1,000 players in a single neighborhood.
And - even if we could subdivide the servers enough to solve the back-end problem - could your PC process the client-side load of updating and rendering 1,000 players on-screen?
In the end, there's a lot of work to do to optimize CoE, but the hardest optimization problems aren't solved through horizontal scale-out or even sub-dividing the world into smaller and smaller chunks. It's solved through understanding of the game mechanics and experience optimizing client engine code like UE4 - something we have experience with.
Uhoh... As discussed in the other thread. The starting continent will be around 18,432km^2
There's a thread that shows this to be the size of Madison Wisconsin and suburbs (down to Rockford Il). Better hope these kingdoms remain friendly and don't try and team up for a war... or I guess they can just take turns in teams (team size to be determined at future date).
I wonder what mechanism they will try to use to manage that so too many people don't enter the same "zone"...
Eh well that is a pretty big world, works out to 135km x 135km, or 190km diagnally from corner to corner. Thats a long ride assuming you can even run it as the crow flies which is highly unlikely. Im not up on details of this game but I think there is limited fast travel if any.
That will help limit things. I'm sure there will be battles that are lag fests, but thats pretty much a given in any game, doesnt mean every battle will be that way.
For reference the two main continents of WOW have combined sq. km of 113. Thats less than the linear length of one side of COE, which means COE is more than 135x the size of wow. That may not be completely accurate as im not sure the COE numbers are accounting for landmass only or including oceans, but still both of wow's continents are only 14km or so from end to end the long way - north to south.
Say wow has 3000 concurrent players on a busy night, which is a low guess... multiply by 50 for conservative COE landmass, that = 150000 players if COE were the same population density...
So if a COE server is maxed out at 100000 players and they are all spread out relatively evenly, i'd say you have a pretty sparsely populated world. On a slow night, very sparse. Of course people will tend to cluster and counter that. Lots of room to roam and explore though. I can put up with some laggy battles I'll avoid in trade for a nice big world like that.
There will be plenty of smaller battles that people across the world couldnt be arsed to travel to before they are done and over.
Man this game desperately needs to mix in some positive PR. It's been bad news, after more bad news lately.
I'm so confused lol. What about this is bad news? This is all known information by the entire community. I'm honestly lost at why this is even a thread on here lol.
"There's also been additional work on world generation in 2017, with the final size of the starting continents being set to 96 km x 192 km for the NA and EU servers. If you’re counting, that’s greater than 18,000 km^2! To put that in perspective, compare the 18,000 km^2 to the 40 km^2 of Skyrim!"
"Also, while this information has never been shared before, the 96 km x 192 km accounts for just 28% of the total landmass of Elyria! Not coincidentally, 28% is the same percentage of landmass of North America and South America combined on Earth. What's that mean? It means somewhere beyond the oceans of the starting continent remains enough land to explore to account for what would be Europe, Asia, Africa, and Oceania on Earth, when compared to North/South America"
The map size should be the least of anyone's concerns. That's why I find it hilarious that people like slap are trying to find a way to complain about this lol.
Edit: ANd also you are very correct when it comes to war in this game and real life. People watching too much game of thrones and lord of the rings. And CoE has never claimed it would work any other way.
I was kinda wondering if Slap was speaking out his ass.
Ok. so.. a Kingdom is 1/6 that territory,, which makes it 3,000km^2 (Roughly the size of the State of Rhode Island, with a population of a million people)
And this gets made up of 12 Duchies, which.. means a Duchy will be about the size of Madison WI.
Makes me want to buy a Duchy now.. and name it Brewers and Packers.
Focus on brewing fine Craft ales and Artisan Cheeses.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
"There's also been additional work on world generation in 2017, with the final size of the starting continents being set to 96 km x 192 km for the NA and EU servers. If you’re counting, that’s greater than 18,000 km^2! To put that in perspective, compare the 18,000 km^2 to the 40 km^2 of Skyrim!"
"Also, while this information has never been shared before, the 96 km x 192 km accounts for just 28% of the total landmass of Elyria! Not coincidentally, 28% is the same percentage of landmass of North America and South America combined on Earth. What's that mean? It means somewhere beyond the oceans of the starting continent remains enough land to explore to account for what would be Europe, Asia, Africa, and Oceania on Earth, when compared to North/South America"
The map size should be the least of anyone's concerns. That's why I find it hilarious that people like slap are trying to find a way to complain about this lol.
Edit: ANd also you are very correct when it comes to war in this game and real life. People watching too much game of thrones and lord of the rings. And CoE has never claimed it would work any other way.
I was kinda wondering if Slap was speaking out his ass.
Ok. so.. a Kingdom is 1/6 that territory,, which makes it 3,000km^2 (Roughly the size of the State of Rhode Island, with a population of a million people)
And this gets made up of 12 Duchies, which.. means a Duchy will be about the size of Madison WI.
Nice map.
Never, man. He has a completely unbiased opinion and is totally informed .
But yeah if anyone is trying to trash CoE the map size is not a good target for future reference LOL!
Q: the game is not going to be able to handle 1000 plus players on the battlefield
Caspien: We've never said that it would. In addition to which, a distributed OS like SpatialOS doesn't solve that problem. Whether we used SpatialOS or our own spatial partitioning system it's important to understand the differences between horizontal and vertical scale-out.
Horizontal scale-out is the ability to support a bigger world. With a bigger world you can also support more players. So long as they're spread out. As soon as players start to cluster in one location you're talking about vertical scale-out, which is a bigger problem to solve as you're fighting physics.
As players gather in the world, the load on the individual servers as well as your clients at home increases. We can procedurally sub-divide the server around that location in order to lessen the load, but at some point, there's so many processes running on individual servers that the network traffic and latency actually starts causing the simulation to perform more poorly. That's why it's easier to get 100,000 players in a single world than 1,000 players in a single neighborhood.
And - even if we could subdivide the servers enough to solve the back-end problem - could your PC process the client-side load of updating and rendering 1,000 players on-screen?
In the end, there's a lot of work to do to optimize CoE, but the hardest optimization problems aren't solved through horizontal scale-out or even sub-dividing the world into smaller and smaller chunks. It's solved through understanding of the game mechanics and experience optimizing client engine code like UE4 - something we have experience with.
Uhoh... As discussed in the other thread. The starting continent will be around 18,432km^2
There's a thread that shows this to be the size of Madison Wisconsin and suburbs (down to Rockford Il). Better hope these kingdoms remain friendly and don't try and team up for a war... or I guess they can just take turns in teams (team size to be determined at future date).
I wonder what mechanism they will try to use to manage that so too many people don't enter the same "zone"...
Eh well that is a pretty big world, works out to 135km x 135km, or 190km diagnally from corner to corner. Thats a long ride assuming you can even run it as the crow flies which is highly unlikely. Im not up on details of this game but I think there is limited fast travel if any.
That will help limit things. I'm sure there will be battles that are lag fests, but thats pretty much a given in any game, doesnt mean every battle will be that way.
For reference the two main continents of WOW have combined sq. km of 113. Thats less than the linear length of one side of COE, which means COE is more than 135x the size of wow. That may not be completely accurate as im not sure the COE numbers are accounting for landmass only or including oceans, but still both of wow's continents are only 14km or so from end to end the long way - north to south.
Say wow has 3000 concurrent players on a busy night, which is a low guess... multiply by 50 for conservative COE landmass, that = 150000 players if COE were the same population density...
So if a COE server is maxed out at 100000 players and they are all spread out relatively evenly, i'd say you have a pretty sparsely populated world. On a slow night, very sparse. Of course people will tend to cluster and counter that. Lots of room to roam and explore though. I can put up with some laggy battles I'll avoid in trade for a nice big world like that.
There will be plenty of smaller battles that people across the world couldnt be arsed to travel to before they are done and over.
There is 100,000 players AND 100,000 NPC starting off. Not to mention they plan on growing to much bigger populations especially as the map becomes bigger.
And there is no fast travel, and probably never will be. Maybe someone who has a telportation talent or something, but that's probably it.
But yeah even with that amount there will be a lot of room. Which will probably lead to huge distances between cities and towns, and kingdoms. WHich is very important for this game to work.
I'm telling you this is just another thing that slap is desperately trying to paint as some sort of hugely negative information. CoE has never claimed to be able to have 1k people fighting in the same area. Never. It's really just a great example of what I've been saying all a long. He doesn't understand the concept of this game. Wars will take place on multiple fronts. And there is massive limitations in areas to prevent people from wanting to congregate all in the same area. You can't have too many people in one area in a game with limited resources.
BUt again I muss stress. 90% of people (stat pulled out of my ass) will not have anything to do with what's going on in the kingdom overall. They will be interested in the way they want to play their game, and what the king wants will have little effect on what that person is going to do in the long run. People will be much more invested in their counties and areas they live in then the kingdom as a whole. People who hold the king title and think they're going to push people around and get them to do whatever they want, will find themselves with many enemies, and a short reign as king.
Lots of people getting heated up by the numbers possible in battle. You do realise that unless the battle has some sort of structure the more players, the more likely it is to be a zerg fest?
It is the structure of how the battles will occur which is the main issue, not how many players are in it, but yes if it gets too small then there are serious issues too.
As I know so little about the game is it like DAOC or AOC, WH, GW2 (not GW2 please )? There is more than one way to have a large battle but structure is the key.
Slapshot1188 said: I do appreciate your fascination with me though.
In the face of the fact that you interjected yourself into a discussion I was having with someone else.. this is hilarious.
Yeah seriously Slap,
just because someone talks about you to someone else in a thread you created doesn't mean you have any right to step in.
Your impudence will be your downfall.
LOL,. OK., go for it hot shot.. show me where I address him in this topic, before he jumped onto a conversation I was having with someone else.
I'll wait.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
A game like Camelot Unchained isn't going to be able to support 1000+ players in a SMALL AREA because it's uses (their own) SpacialOS-type tech. They can support battles of that size because they are optimizing the mother f'ing shit out of their game play engine.
You need to do BOTH in order to make massive, scaling worlds with 1000-2000 player battles. Then we could stop with the moronic threads like an FPS game using SpacialOS suddenly being able to magically support hundreds or thousands of characters on a small map ...
"it dun work dat way"
Every single mmo that is made with conventional engines (unless those base engines dramatically change) on top of SpacialOS ... will work exactly like the base engine alone aside from the world getting bigger. Pretty graphics means, and always will mean, limited view distance and local player count, distance fog and poor scaling.
You stay sassy!
But, lets go with an in-game day being 2.8 real hours, so, 48 real hours equates to 17 in-game days ( Just under 2 1/2 weeks of in-game time passing) (or for the sake of math we will say 2 real days equates to 400 in-game hours of travel time)..
So, Depending on the means of travel, Walking vs Running vs Horse, This can be anywhere from 1,600 miles to 8,000 miles in a single direction, depending on mode.
That's huge.
To put all this talk of land mass and size and player base in a real world perspective, Madison WI, has a population of 250,000 people and is only 94 square miles, of which 17 square miles is water.
Still don't recommend trying to just walk across it in the winter time. Take short trips.. store to store and rent a room with working heat.
(edited to clear the time issues up, in relation to real time equating to game time, for those that would need it)
Again... this "continent" is a little bigger than the state of Connecticut. The 3rd smallest state in the Union. That is split up into 6 Kingdoms. Each of these Kingdoms could have 16.67k characters (100k/6). That means 33k citizens if 2 Kingdoms go to war... which is supposed to be a main way for the Buy 2 King people to lose their titles and lands.
If these 2 Kingdoms are sharing a border... it will likely not take very long to get from a Capital City to this border.
Again, for perspective according to the "Parcels and Settlements" thread... there will be an average of 12 Duchys each containing 24 Counties. That means 288 Dukes and Counts alone. For one Kingdom. I imagine when a King calls his Banners he would expect his Dukes and Counts to come to the fight and bring some men with them no? Imagine Each Count simply answered the call with 5 additional men...
Even if some these were NPCs there should need to be some mechanism for summoning the banners right?
It will be interesting to see how this is handled. Will the Kings need to agree to certain battle parameters? Your best 100 men vs mine and we meet at X location?
Will simply having a thousand of your members show up in an attack location become the standard "defense"? This was a tactic used by Hyperion in Darkfall. They simply caused massive server lag which made battles futile. This just resulted in recruiting "off-peak" folks to do the sieging in the middle of work days etc...
This is not a new issue... but one that we should learn from history and apply those learnings to avoid repeats. @Ungood as you say you haven't bought the game nor really researched it.. I'm really more interested in how @Dleatherus or @mystichaze think Kingdom vs Kingdom wars will play out. Being of the "Nobility" they may already have had Discord discussions with other kingdoms and have a better idea on how this will play out than I do from just reading the Dev Blogs and Forums. I'm honestly interested in their thoughts on how Kingdom vs Kingdom wars will be handled by the server.. or even world wars...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But yeah, weather should be a big deal, and so should food. If outside civilization isn't highly dangerous then the devs didn't do their jobs right. Even traveling from a mining site to a nearby city will probably require mercenaries to protect your cargo.
And yeah traveling in the cold winter without proper clothing, or other necessary survival skills (at least people in your group with these survival skills) will also lead to an inevitable death.
The map is ridiculously huge, and to be honest a lot of people will not be moving outside of their county much. A farmer isn't going to travel 3 kingdoms over to sell his wheat.
One thing I notice a lot in these forums (and with some on the CoE forums too) is people seem to look at this game at a macro level. Like who your king is, the kingdom your in is going to be irrelevant for 95% of people.
Like a kingdom on kingdom all at war may never happen, but warrign with your neighboring county? Trying to take out the duke above you? That's going to be where most of the conflict lies in my opinion.
And BTW "kingdom wars" as SLapshot says, is not the only way to lose your title. You can also have you and your heirs murdered. And the war doesn't have to be kingdom vs kingdom. It could be something as simple as a few of your dukes revolt and push you out of power. Or it might just be these kingdoms split off. A lot of people think in a year the amount of kingdoms will double because of civil wars, and people splitting off.
Another game that will have a big rush at launch, lose half their player base in the first 2 months, and be down to 10k players at 6 months.
At this point, we might as well all jump on the Star Citizen train. At least that games absurd promises are slowly starting to take shape, and might even be fully realized in like.....7 years.
I'd rather have an insanely stupid wait for something new and promised than keep getting behind these games that say one thing, and then 1 year later go, "Nevermind, we can't do that because we don't have the tech...everything that made us unique will now not be in the game".
And are people really trying to downplay the map as not being big enough lol? A complaint I've literally never heard hahahaha.
Oh and P.S. SLapshot, if you want people to not make wrong assumptions on your post I suggest using actual numbers, and not arbitrary terms. When most people hear "hours" in the way you used it, they don't think almost a full day.
At this point, the only original thing in this game left is the aging system.
Other than that we have.....written contracts.....cool, but a trade window does it just as well, nothing really ground breaking.
The massive scale of the game in both size and player count have all been back peddled to...well EQ2 WoW levels....the same numbers we've been playing with for 15 years.
At this point unless that aging system turns out to be something insane....we might as well all just head back to our respective MMO's...because this one is bringing nothing new to the table. Another clone? Seems like it.
Equally so, I would doubt there would be much in the way of Kingdom to Kingdom Wars anyway in this game given that character death is somewhat real to all the solders involved. Nothing against the King or Nobles, or what have you, but, dying in this game will cost players money, so, unlike games like CU and CF where death has little sting to it, so players are encouraged to battle and fight for the fun of it, and largely because they can.. in CoE.. the people involved in these fights, from the bottom up would need to be very motivated to get involved.
Which means, and I am just taking a guess with this, that there will be very little in the way of Fair Weather or Conscripted Troops to bulk up armies, unless the battles plan to be played out by NPC's or OPC's (which would kinda such for the person that was logged out)
Now, back to the map.
Does anyone really know how big this map is? I mean has SBS released it's size or scale?
But if how you roll is just killing people and hoping to get paid for it... do not let me stop your fun, I love doing just that.. in the MOBA's I play. Cutting someone down and then spiking them.. that is just good fashioned PvP game fun.
What about their story engine? That's not unique? What about the social system? I don't know of a game that's tried to use a government system as intricate as this.
No one's stopping you from going back to whatever MMO you came from. I'm sure whatever it is though is 100% totally unique.
https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/23401/A-Year-of-Foundation
"There's also been additional work on world generation in 2017, with the final size of the starting continents being set to 96 km x 192 km for the NA and EU servers. If you’re counting, that’s greater than 18,000 km^2! To put that in perspective, compare the 18,000 km^2 to the 40 km^2 of Skyrim!"
"Also, while this information has never been shared before, the 96 km x 192 km accounts for just 28% of the total landmass of Elyria! Not coincidentally, 28% is the same percentage of landmass of North America and South America combined on Earth. What's that mean? It means somewhere beyond the oceans of the starting continent remains enough land to explore to account for what would be Europe, Asia, Africa, and Oceania on Earth, when compared to North/South America"
The map size should be the least of anyone's concerns. That's why I find it hilarious that people like slap are trying to find a way to complain about this lol.
Edit: ANd also you are very correct when it comes to war in this game and real life. People watching too much game of thrones and lord of the rings. And CoE has never claimed it would work any other way.
That will help limit things. I'm sure there will be battles that are lag fests, but thats pretty much a given in any game, doesnt mean every battle will be that way.
For reference the two main continents of WOW have combined sq. km of 113. Thats less than the linear length of one side of COE, which means COE is more than 135x the size of wow. That may not be completely accurate as im not sure the COE numbers are accounting for landmass only or including oceans, but still both of wow's continents are only 14km or so from end to end the long way - north to south.
Say wow has 3000 concurrent players on a busy night, which is a low guess... multiply by 50 for conservative COE landmass, that = 150000 players if COE were the same population density...
So if a COE server is maxed out at 100000 players and they are all spread out relatively evenly, i'd say you have a pretty sparsely populated world. On a slow night, very sparse. Of course people will tend to cluster and counter that. Lots of room to roam and explore though. I can put up with some laggy battles I'll avoid in trade for a nice big world like that.
There will be plenty of smaller battles that people across the world couldnt be arsed to travel to before they are done and over.
Ok. so.. a Kingdom is 1/6 that territory,, which makes it 3,000km^2 (Roughly the size of the State of Rhode Island, with a population of a million people)
And this gets made up of 12 Duchies, which.. means a Duchy will be about the size of Madison WI.
Makes me want to buy a Duchy now.. and name it Brewers and Packers.
Focus on brewing fine Craft ales and Artisan Cheeses.
But yeah if anyone is trying to trash CoE the map size is not a good target for future reference LOL!
And there is no fast travel, and probably never will be. Maybe someone who has a telportation talent or something, but that's probably it.
But yeah even with that amount there will be a lot of room. Which will probably lead to huge distances between cities and towns, and kingdoms. WHich is very important for this game to work.
BUt again I muss stress. 90% of people (stat pulled out of my ass) will not have anything to do with what's going on in the kingdom overall. They will be interested in the way they want to play their game, and what the king wants will have little effect on what that person is going to do in the long run. People will be much more invested in their counties and areas they live in then the kingdom as a whole. People who hold the king title and think they're going to push people around and get them to do whatever they want, will find themselves with many enemies, and a short reign as king.
just because someone talks about you to someone else in a thread you created doesn't mean you have any right to step in.
Your impudence will be your downfall.
It is the structure of how the battles will occur which is the main issue, not how many players are in it, but yes if it gets too small then there are serious issues too.
As I know so little about the game is it like DAOC or AOC, WH, GW2 (not GW2 please
I'll wait.