I agree, there is. I'm not advocating for a world like the one in Demolition Man. If you need to crack down on someone for bad play in your group, that may be appropriate.
But make no mistake. There are people running around using racial and sexual epithets who, when called on it, want to pretend like it's not them - it's everyone else being overly "sensitive." And that's crap. They aren't fooling anyone.
Yes, you ARE advocating for a Demolition Man "everyone is fake happy" world.
Freedom means taking the good with the bad, not controlling what you cherry pick for your personal agenda. And I point to "overly sensitive" because you are. I'v never used a racial slur, a homophobic epithet, or any other kind of "fear mongering" hate speech. Ever. There is no need for them when someone has any inkling what a vocabulary is.
Have you thought about what your "thoughts control" attitude does? It hides and masks problems. How do I know whom to avoid if they can't spew their crap?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Same question, what topics are you finding this to be a problem with?
Anything you say these days has a chance to offend someone, somewhere. Humans seem to be carrying HUGE boulders on their shoulders these days, just waiting for people to try to knock them off. It is getting beyond ridiculous. ToS doesn't seem to matter. If someone cries, "I'm offended! BAN THEM!", chances are good that the one reported will get banned.
I find that people who claim the whole world is offended are often folks being called out for things like bigotry, homophobia, xenophobia, sexism, etc. They miss the days when they could use hateful, bullying language and no one would speak up on anyone else's behalf. Nowadays, they will speak up. I know I will.
You are a little misguided here I believe. People call others racist, bigot and every phobia in the book just because that person doesn't share the same opinion or beliefs as they do. You can no longer argue online without being called one of those names by a very vocal group on social medias, forums of all kinds and video games. They have completely destroyed the significance of those phrases.
So you speak up and call those you disagree with racist, sexist, bigots and every phobia it doesn't have the impact that you think it does anymore.
I have spoken up and disagreed with countless people on the internet for over 30 years.
Rarely has anyone accused me of being racist, bigoted or sexist, unless they misunderstood the meaning of those terms.
So if I am able to keep my behaviors in check, I fully expect others to do the same.
I can live with occasional slips and let it go, but if a regular problem I fully feel its within "my rights" to attempt to control the behavior of others, especially if it's within my power to do so.
When it's not, no problem decrying others who do and am more than happy to attempt to influence those in power to maintain some order and civility.
People DON'T know what those terms mean anymore. They've been used so often and ineffectively that they've lost their purpose.
I am amazed that you think everyone in the whole wide world can (should?) act exactly as you do. I certainly am aware that there are Hitlers and Khans in this world, along with actual racists, sexists, homophobes, and all else. To expect these 7billion others to act like you is a bit like asking for the perfect MMORPG, don't you think?
he's 100% correct. Living in a society isn't "about you".
That's why societies create their own rules, laws expectations.
I don't care if people are racists, sexist or homophoes. People are going to be who they are and nothing anyone can do will change them
However, there is no call for inflicting one's self on others. To that end, I've worked with some very professional people who act COMPLETELY different i their private lives.
It's possible and it's what makes things work. Keep it in your pants unless you are home, no one wants or cares to see it.
Does this "inflicting one's self" go both ways? Just wanted to clarify here. I also know many people who "know" their views are "not popular" and just shut up when it comes to it.
I have noticed that truly bad and evil people can and will be nice when they desire to. They "know" how to do this. Right now, society is full of "needful contradictions" that the common person who just wants to go to work, raise their family, and work towards retirement cannot keep up with all the demands made by society today. I certainly can't keep up. Now I lash back when I get a chance to try to show the sillyness of these thought police folks. Most never get it, though.
And to tie this back in, This is why gaming communities today suck much worse than they used to. There are just too many "self appointed" standards one needs to know to have any inkling of "carefree fun."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
There is a big difference between being offended and someone being offensive.
I think it is right that we should have laws / rules / regulations in place that prevent people from being deliberately offensive. Being offensive means you actively want to cause other people distress and that is wrong.
However, laws / rules / regulations that prevent people from being offended are wrong. A side effect of free speech is that you will be offended. It's unavoidable.
It's a fine line to tread. In the past we were nowhere near right. I think we're approaching the correct sweet spot or may even be there, but we are seeing more and more instances where that sweet spot has been missed and we're now targeting people for things we personally find offensive, rather than because the person was being offensive.
I'll try to illustrate with an example.
"Belief in any religion shows a fundamental failure in logic" "All Christians are idiots"
The first is a statement of opinion and millions (billions?) of people around the world are likely to be offended by it. However, it is not deliberately trying to cause offence and it is a valid opinion that should be allowed to be expressed freely.
The second is also a statement of opinion, but is deliberately trying to cause offence. It is fine for someone to hold that opinion (regardless of it's validity) but to express it in that manner should not be OK.
I think at the moment, certainly in the UK, we're at the sweet spot where that first statement is OK and that second statement is not. But, we are definitely in danger of going past that spot and trying to curtail free speech in order to avoid anyone being offended. Hopefully common sense will prevail.....
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Same question, what topics are you finding this to be a problem with?
Anything you say these days has a chance to offend someone, somewhere. Humans seem to be carrying HUGE boulders on their shoulders these days, just waiting for people to try to knock them off. It is getting beyond ridiculous. ToS doesn't seem to matter. If someone cries, "I'm offended! BAN THEM!", chances are good that the one reported will get banned.
I find that people who claim the whole world is offended are often folks being called out for things like bigotry, homophobia, xenophobia, sexism, etc. They miss the days when they could use hateful, bullying language and no one would speak up on anyone else's behalf. Nowadays, they will speak up. I know I will.
You are a little misguided here I believe. People call others racist, bigot and every phobia in the book just because that person doesn't share the same opinion or beliefs as they do. You can no longer argue online without being called one of those names by a very vocal group on social medias, forums of all kinds and video games. They have completely destroyed the significance of those phrases.
So you speak up and call those you disagree with racist, sexist, bigots and every phobia it doesn't have the impact that you think it does anymore.
I have spoken up and disagreed with countless people on the internet for over 30 years.
Rarely has anyone accused me of being racist, bigoted or sexist, unless they misunderstood the meaning of those terms.
So if I am able to keep my behaviors in check, I fully expect others to do the same.
I can live with occasional slips and let it go, but if a regular problem I fully feel its within "my rights" to attempt to control the behavior of others, especially if it's within my power to do so.
When it's not, no problem decrying others who do and am more than happy to attempt to influence those in power to maintain some order and civility.
People DON'T know what those terms mean anymore. They've been used so often and ineffectively that they've lost their purpose.
I am amazed that you think everyone in the whole wide world can (should?) act exactly as you do. I certainly am aware that there are Hitlers and Khans in this world, along with actual racists, sexists, homophobes, and all else. To expect these 7billion others to act like you is a bit like asking for the perfect MMORPG, don't you think?
he's 100% correct. Living in a society isn't "about you".
That's why societies create their own rules, laws expectations.
I don't care if people are racists, sexist or homophoes. People are going to be who they are and nothing anyone can do will change them
However, there is no call for inflicting one's self on others. To that end, I've worked with some very professional people who act COMPLETELY different i their private lives.
It's possible and it's what makes things work. Keep it in your pants unless you are home, no one wants or cares to see it.
Does this "inflicting one's self" go both ways?
Why wouldn't it?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
AlBQuirky said: I'v never used a racial slur, a homophobic epithet, or any other kind of "fear mongering" hate speech. Ever. There is no need for them when someone has any inkling what a vocabulary is.
I don't know you and therefore I don't know what you may ever have said or how you may have said it. So this is not an accusation.
Bigotry is not about the use of specific words. Not all bigots are ineloquent. And not all bigots lack good manners or diplomacy. This is about opposition to bigotry itself, in any form it may take.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
There is a big difference between being offended and someone being offensive.
I think it is right that we should have laws / rules / regulations in place that prevent people from being deliberately offensive. Being offensive means you actively want to cause other people distress and that is wrong.
However, laws / rules / regulations that prevent people from being offended are wrong. A side effect of free speech is that you will be offended. It's unavoidable.
It's a fine line to tread. In the past we were nowhere near right. I think we're approaching the correct sweet spot or may even be there, but we are seeing more and more instances where that sweet spot has been missed and we're now targeting people for things we personally find offensive, rather than because the person was being offensive.
I'll try to illustrate with an example.
"Belief in any religion shows a fundamental failure in logic" "All Christians are idiots"
The first is a statement of opinion and millions (billions?) of people around the world are likely to be offended by it. However, it is not deliberately trying to cause offence and it is a valid opinion that should be allowed to be expressed freely.
The second is also a statement of opinion, but is deliberately trying to cause offence. It is fine for someone to hold that opinion (regardless of it's validity) but to express it in that manner should not be OK.
I think at the moment, certainly in the UK, we're at the sweet spot where that first statement is OK and that second statement is not. But, we are definitely in danger of going past that spot and trying to curtail free speech in order to avoid anyone being offended. Hopefully common sense will prevail.....
Well said. Honestly, I think that these idea of free speech was, obviously, something that was pioneered in America. Unfortunately, like most other amendments, many have managed to butcher it from what the original intent was. Instead, it becomes a convenient shield for assholes. YouTube, in particular, made many millionaires of people who simply act badly. However, I think that today, there is a shift and these people are being tried in the court of public opinion. Sometimes the fairness of this is questionable, but it is most certainly unrelenting. Look over the past year, how many careers have been ruined? There are some cases which are absolutely worthy of the resulting backlash, but others seem blown way out of proportion. I'm of the mind, though, that if something is inherently broken, if you need to blow things out of proportion a bit to get the point to stick, I'm all for it. There are MANY more social issues in America that need this same type of treatment.
In the end, I'm with you, hopefully something prevails that ends up improving humanity as a whole. I feel like we're seeing plenty of accountability right now, though, which is fantastic.
Same question, what topics are you finding this to be a problem with?
Anything you say these days has a chance to offend someone, somewhere. Humans seem to be carrying HUGE boulders on their shoulders these days, just waiting for people to try to knock them off. It is getting beyond ridiculous. ToS doesn't seem to matter. If someone cries, "I'm offended! BAN THEM!", chances are good that the one reported will get banned.
I find that people who claim the whole world is offended are often folks being called out for things like bigotry, homophobia, xenophobia, sexism, etc. They miss the days when they could use hateful, bullying language and no one would speak up on anyone else's behalf. Nowadays, they will speak up. I know I will.
You are a little misguided here I believe. People call others racist, bigot and every phobia in the book just because that person doesn't share the same opinion or beliefs as they do. You can no longer argue online without being called one of those names by a very vocal group on social medias, forums of all kinds and video games. They have completely destroyed the significance of those phrases.
So you speak up and call those you disagree with racist, sexist, bigots and every phobia it doesn't have the impact that you think it does anymore.
I have spoken up and disagreed with countless people on the internet for over 30 years.
Rarely has anyone accused me of being racist, bigoted or sexist, unless they misunderstood the meaning of those terms.
So if I am able to keep my behaviors in check, I fully expect others to do the same.
I can live with occasional slips and let it go, but if a regular problem I fully feel its within "my rights" to attempt to control the behavior of others, especially if it's within my power to do so.
When it's not, no problem decrying others who do and am more than happy to attempt to influence those in power to maintain some order and civility.
People DON'T know what those terms mean anymore. They've been used so often and ineffectively that they've lost their purpose.
I am amazed that you think everyone in the whole wide world can (should?) act exactly as you do. I certainly am aware that there are Hitlers and Khans in this world, along with actual racists, sexists, homophobes, and all else. To expect these 7billion others to act like you is a bit like asking for the perfect MMORPG, don't you think?
he's 100% correct. Living in a society isn't "about you".
That's why societies create their own rules, laws expectations.
I don't care if people are racists, sexist or homophoes. People are going to be who they are and nothing anyone can do will change them
However, there is no call for inflicting one's self on others. To that end, I've worked with some very professional people who act COMPLETELY different i their private lives.
It's possible and it's what makes things work. Keep it in your pants unless you are home, no one wants or cares to see it.
till the moment who the presure is too great then people have a break down and retreat from society, or wish for the end of humanity, or go out in a killing spree with some weapon.
so pray tell me if society is not about you, you would be willing to sacrifice yourself to save others? most won't, and the ones who does do so because they want to feel like a hero, same with heping others you do it because you feel good about it, if you don't you won't help, the problem is always the extremesif you do whatever you want you are bound to push teh boundarys of someone else, if you push too much laws to control people will start to go overboard to fight back and the response will be more people for control, that is all from fear, the average joe is a fearfull person, so to feel safe and protected he is willing to give up his freedom for a illusion of safeness and protection. keeping going, with there is a lot more to say and cover will simple put a lot over this game forum so not really a good thing.
but to make the comparation, demolution man film really hit the nail of several thing, arnold being governor, words hurting people more then fists, the minimum treath of violence is more then enough for people give up anything and are unable do anything to stop it
I would say weaker, but it varies game to game. I would say that the difference has come almost entirely from the way modern MMOs are designed.
Social connections, the backbone of a community, can only form through repeated contact with the same people. Between excessive instancing and mega-servers, you simply don't see the same people very often, so you don't form those bonds and don't feel part of a community.
Additionally, the quality of modern social contact has also diminished. There is less codependence, faster paced action and less downtime, so even if you see the same people, you often don't have much of a chance to actually socialise unless you specifically try to.
What has changed for the better is community sites and blogs. It seems like it's much quicker, easier and cheaper to setup your own blog or community site and so there do seem to be a lot more of them about and they are of higher quality than in the past. It always impresses me what some fans do to support a game or express their enjoyment of it.
Very well put. The last MMO I played somewhat actively was FFXIV, and though I probably grouped MORE than I used to in DAoC (which is my go-to MMO, as I enjoyed it most/longest), there was barely any need to interact with others. Searching for groups is automated, and even at lower levels you're expected to know your role to the point where you follow the tank, perform your job, and manage to usually get through a dungeon without saying a word.
I played on a Japanese server, as I lived in Asia at the time. I was in an international guild and usually just said 'hi!' when logging on (typing on the PS4 is a bitch) and occasionally read messages from guildies, though usually less than half the time. When grouped for dungeons and such, I'd mention I couldn't speak Japanese through the auto-translate function and pretty much only read group chat when I'd see someone speak English, and only ever speak up when absolutely necessary (in situations where I messed up, or was just trying not to be a dick).
I used to be quite talkative during my time in DAoC (in group/guild/public chats, as well as over ye olde voice chat software) and somehow managed to enjoy FFXIV a fair amount, despite pretty much acting like a mute and not speaking the server language. This, to me at least, has been both a positive and negative thing. Though it's nice to be able to keep playing the game abroad, and to be able to muck about by myself while the party finder finds a group for me, I find MMO's a lot less involving now than I used to, pretty much because there's no real need (or not as much) to socialise and look for people to play with. Sure, this is in part because I've grown up (somewhat), as those game experiences have been 10-15 years apart, and there's factors like time played and all that. Overall, I feel like the experience now is less rewarding than it used to be.
When I played DAoC, by the time I gave up on the game, I felt pretty bad about it - as though I was moving to a different country. I'd spent about a year's worth of playtime ingame over four years, and got to know several people ingame better than I know a lot of real life friends now. Once you got to the endgame, RvR (PvP, basically), and had no more need for PvE content, you'd basically login and look for a group. This could be instant, having messages queued up as soon as the game finished loading, but it could take literal hours, too. Being a class that didn't work great solo, in a game that wasn't really meant to be played by yourself to begin with, meant I spent a lot of time sitting around, literally doing nothing but chat. I'd sit my character down in Emain's Albion Portal Keep, place some LFG message, and get down to chatting with friends until I'd either give up and quit, got a group, or spoke for so long that I'd go to bed.
The whole multiplayer experience, and the way you experience a game's community, vary by game and person, but I've never had a remotely similar experience to the one I had in DAoC in any game since. Though I can't be arsed to check, I think I've still got old CDs somewhere with screenshots, chat logs and custom GUIs. Thinking back now, about a decade after having quit the game, I can still remember a bunch of the names that would appear in the friends list or group status window of those screenshots, along with some of the more memorable fights/raids. I still remember conversations I had and times I got scolded for staying up late, carrying on conversations but being too tired to bother actually playing. Whether you were good at your particular character class was probably most important, but whether people liked and remembered you came close. Certain players were known for organising raids, helping a lot of new players out, or notorious for being complete pricks or scamming people out of loot.
Having spent a decent amount of time in FFXIV, I can't think of the name of a single player or even guildmember. Sure, it's quite far from a 1-1 comparison between the two games in any way, but I think a fair bit of this has to do with the fact that you don't really have to talk or socialise the way you used to. In DAoC, and I imagine other old MMOs, making friends and networking was absolutely vital. Now, it seems mostly optional. This is probably a good thing overall, at least gameplay-wise, but I think the need to interact with others in a MMO was primarily a good thing.
Anyway, crap, my reply turned into an essay First time I bothered posting here, too, I think. Sorry if my wall of text somehow offended someone
There is a big difference between being offended and someone being offensive.
I think it is right that we should have laws / rules / regulations in place that prevent people from being deliberately offensive. Being offensive means you actively want to cause other people distress and that is wrong.
However, laws / rules / regulations that prevent people from being offended are wrong. A side effect of free speech is that you will be offended. It's unavoidable.
It's a fine line to tread. In the past we were nowhere near right. I think we're approaching the correct sweet spot or may even be there, but we are seeing more and more instances where that sweet spot has been missed and we're now targeting people for things we personally find offensive, rather than because the person was being offensive.
I'll try to illustrate with an example.
"Belief in any religion shows a fundamental failure in logic" "All Christians are idiots"
The first is a statement of opinion and millions (billions?) of people around the world are likely to be offended by it. However, it is not deliberately trying to cause offence and it is a valid opinion that should be allowed to be expressed freely.
The second is also a statement of opinion, but is deliberately trying to cause offence. It is fine for someone to hold that opinion (regardless of it's validity) but to express it in that manner should not be OK.
I think at the moment, certainly in the UK, we're at the sweet spot where that first statement is OK and that second statement is not. But, we are definitely in danger of going past that spot and trying to curtail free speech in order to avoid anyone being offended. Hopefully common sense will prevail.....
Good example. While I'm in the category who would be offended. I am open minded enough to say neither statement would have me reporting anyone for it.
Now, were they to go on a steady diatribe in an inappropriate place, say like a gaming forum or in game then yes, I'll attempt to take any appropriate action including killing their in game avatar if friendly fire is permitted.
I understand people are quite different from me, but when it comes to civility and respectful behavior I feel those apply in many social situations and almost everyone understands the difference between right and wrong behaviors.
We all know better than to swear in a courtroom, but a bar is probably OK if there aren't a lot of nuns or children nearby.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Many do not think so. Look at the replies to my comment
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
AlBQuirky said: I'v never used a racial slur, a homophobic epithet, or any other kind of "fear mongering" hate speech. Ever. There is no need for them when someone has any inkling what a vocabulary is.
I don't know you and therefore I don't know what you may ever have said or how you may have said it. So this is not an accusation.
Bigotry is not about the use of specific words. Not all bigots are ineloquent. And not all bigots lack good manners or diplomacy. This is about opposition to bigotry itself, in any form it may take.
The Alcoholics Anonymous "serenity prayer" seems worth mentioning here:
"God, grant me the Serenity, to accept the things I can not
change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the
difference."
Bigotry will live on as long as there are differences amongst us humans. But go ahead and try
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I understand people are quite different from me, but when it comes to civility and respectful behavior I feel those apply in many social situations and almost everyone understands the difference between right and wrong behaviors.
This is not common knowledge, especially when folks keep moving the bar for "offensive." I was raised to say "please" and "thank you." These are words later generations seem to have forgotten.
How can "we" know what's what when a large vocal group keep trying to tell everyone "acceptance/tolerance is the answer to all." This is great until they meet something they refuse to "accept or tolerate", like bigotry. So we have conflicting information and standards.
My point is especially hard to argue, because I basically agree with you. But I look to the long road ahead and see a very, very slippery ice-covered slope. It reminds me of the German Pastor, Martin Niemoller's comment about "societal cleansing":
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
There is no defending the biggots and haters. None. But what many people want to do about them is wrong. 100% wrong, in my opinion. And I have to ask, Do you get offended for others, or just yourself? Do you "ban them!" because you think someone may get offended? Or do wait and see if anyone in the bigot's group actually says something?
Post edited by AlBQuirky on
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
...retreat from society, or wish for the end of humanity...
Those are the two I chose long ago. Never been happier.
You could also follow the philosophy of the Toa. It makes life a lot less stressful IMO. Take what works for you and discard the rest. I like the concepts of not being attached to anything or afraid to lose anything. This helps remove feelings of jealousy, anger, hatred, and ambition. Then your body can be more at peace.
The communities that are still around that were around in 2002 are stronger for having survived this long.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
I've observed a direct correlation between community strength and how true of a sandbox the game is.
The best game community I've participated in online is Wurm Online. Wurm Online is a very true sandbox with players sculpting the land and building up custom cities. People are generally highly helpful in friendly. Even on the PvP servers your own faction is generally quite helpful.
As a full loot PvP game with no factions I was expecting Life as Feudal to be exceptionally toxic like Darkfall or ArcheAge. I've instead found the opposite. When discovered by our neighbors, rather than them raiding us to oblivion they brought food, tools, and money for me to establish our first claim with. Mind you I asked them for nothing, and 2 different groups discovered us and brought gifts. Like Wurm, LiF is a true sandbox with terraforming and major survival elements.
Even in lesser sandboxes with a strong PvP focus like Life is Feudal and EVE all the griefers are also accompanied by things like "New Academy" and "Eve University".
People seem to get more invested in more sandboxy games, and the more altrustic of those who get invested work hard at the betterment of the community.
So our community started a thread about the strength of communities and we ended up having an argument about bigotry, being offended and being too offended.
I will be putting two sugars and extra irony in my coffee this morning.
I'm not a huge fan of rules. Things like false self value may be what causes issues in society. People thinking there is a definitive right and wrong. People making judgements on others. In reality it is just a choice of how you choose to live. In Toaism there is the belief that if people didn't judge themselves and each other then they wouldn't do all the bad things they do in the first place. Trying to control others actions may be the root of the problem along with a false feeling of need to achieve x in life to succeed. Society is what makes our false identity and gives us our desires. In nature we would just live in the moment without thinking to much.
People are a lot more polite today in my experience than when in the 1980s, 90s, 2000s, etc. I do think it is forced and there is a different kind of pressure to control others and force them to act to polite and also for information to be available to everyone. Equality and knowledge is making cost of living rise and requirements for working fairly outrageous for everyone. I'm not sure if it's better to have people be polite at work and cost of living high or have people be rude and have cost of living lower. There are trade offs to everything. For instance more women working means more competition and makes it more difficult for people who are on single incomes. People don't seem to think about these types of things. They just rush in with their agenda's. I believe the people who benefit the most from this are the people at the top. They don't have to spend time resolving arguments as much and people are killing themselves to survive while preaching how lucky everyone in the society is to do so. Anyone who says differently is 'entitled'.
I believe if most people were taught how to be independent (grow their own food, build their own shelter, etc.) from birth then they would choose that over society. It would give them a greater sense of value of themselves and they wouldn't feel so dependent upon it. Right now there aren't many options for people who want to live outside of society due to overpopulation. There aren't many places left that are free and not hostile to live in.
Comments
Freedom means taking the good with the bad, not controlling what you cherry pick for your personal agenda. And I point to "overly sensitive" because you are. I'v never used a racial slur, a homophobic epithet, or any other kind of "fear mongering" hate speech. Ever. There is no need for them when someone has any inkling what a vocabulary is.
Have you thought about what your "thoughts control" attitude does? It hides and masks problems. How do I know whom to avoid if they can't spew their crap?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I have noticed that truly bad and evil people can and will be nice when they desire to. They "know" how to do this. Right now, society is full of "needful contradictions" that the common person who just wants to go to work, raise their family, and work towards retirement cannot keep up with all the demands made by society today. I certainly can't keep up. Now I lash back when I get a chance to try to show the sillyness of these thought police folks. Most never get it, though.
And to tie this back in, This is why gaming communities today suck much worse than they used to. There are just too many "self appointed" standards one needs to know to have any inkling of "carefree fun."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I think it is right that we should have laws / rules / regulations in place that prevent people from being deliberately offensive. Being offensive means you actively want to cause other people distress and that is wrong.
However, laws / rules / regulations that prevent people from being offended are wrong. A side effect of free speech is that you will be offended. It's unavoidable.
It's a fine line to tread. In the past we were nowhere near right. I think we're approaching the correct sweet spot or may even be there, but we are seeing more and more instances where that sweet spot has been missed and we're now targeting people for things we personally find offensive, rather than because the person was being offensive.
I'll try to illustrate with an example.
"Belief in any religion shows a fundamental failure in logic"
"All Christians are idiots"
The first is a statement of opinion and millions (billions?) of people around the world are likely to be offended by it. However, it is not deliberately trying to cause offence and it is a valid opinion that should be allowed to be expressed freely.
The second is also a statement of opinion, but is deliberately trying to cause offence. It is fine for someone to hold that opinion (regardless of it's validity) but to express it in that manner should not be OK.
I think at the moment, certainly in the UK, we're at the sweet spot where that first statement is OK and that second statement is not. But, we are definitely in danger of going past that spot and trying to curtail free speech in order to avoid anyone being offended. Hopefully common sense will prevail.....
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Bigotry is not about the use of specific words. Not all bigots are ineloquent. And not all bigots lack good manners or diplomacy. This is about opposition to bigotry itself, in any form it may take.
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Well said. Honestly, I think that these idea of free speech was, obviously, something that was pioneered in America. Unfortunately, like most other amendments, many have managed to butcher it from what the original intent was. Instead, it becomes a convenient shield for assholes. YouTube, in particular, made many millionaires of people who simply act badly. However, I think that today, there is a shift and these people are being tried in the court of public opinion. Sometimes the fairness of this is questionable, but it is most certainly unrelenting. Look over the past year, how many careers have been ruined? There are some cases which are absolutely worthy of the resulting backlash, but others seem blown way out of proportion. I'm of the mind, though, that if something is inherently broken, if you need to blow things out of proportion a bit to get the point to stick, I'm all for it. There are MANY more social issues in America that need this same type of treatment.
In the end, I'm with you, hopefully something prevails that ends up improving humanity as a whole. I feel like we're seeing plenty of accountability right now, though, which is fantastic.
Crazkanuk
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so pray tell me if society is not about you, you would be willing to sacrifice yourself to save others? most won't, and the ones who does do so because they want to feel like a hero, same with heping others you do it because you feel good about it, if you don't you won't help, the problem is always the extremesif you do whatever you want you are bound to push teh boundarys of someone else, if you push too much laws to control people will start to go overboard to fight back and the response will be more people for control, that is all from fear, the average joe is a fearfull person, so to feel safe and protected he is willing to give up his freedom for a illusion of safeness and protection. keeping going, with there is a lot more to say and cover will simple put a lot over this game forum so not really a good thing.
but to make the comparation, demolution man film really hit the nail of several thing, arnold being governor, words hurting people more then fists, the minimum treath of violence is more then enough for people give up anything and are unable do anything to stop it
I played on a Japanese server, as I lived in Asia at the time. I was in an international guild and usually just said 'hi!' when logging on (typing on the PS4 is a bitch) and occasionally read messages from guildies, though usually less than half the time. When grouped for dungeons and such, I'd mention I couldn't speak Japanese through the auto-translate function and pretty much only read group chat when I'd see someone speak English, and only ever speak up when absolutely necessary (in situations where I messed up, or was just trying not to be a dick).
I used to be quite talkative during my time in DAoC (in group/guild/public chats, as well as over ye olde voice chat software) and somehow managed to enjoy FFXIV a fair amount, despite pretty much acting like a mute and not speaking the server language. This, to me at least, has been both a positive and negative thing. Though it's nice to be able to keep playing the game abroad, and to be able to muck about by myself while the party finder finds a group for me, I find MMO's a lot less involving now than I used to, pretty much because there's no real need (or not as much) to socialise and look for people to play with. Sure, this is in part because I've grown up (somewhat), as those game experiences have been 10-15 years apart, and there's factors like time played and all that. Overall, I feel like the experience now is less rewarding than it used to be.
When I played DAoC, by the time I gave up on the game, I felt pretty bad about it - as though I was moving to a different country. I'd spent about a year's worth of playtime ingame over four years, and got to know several people ingame better than I know a lot of real life friends now. Once you got to the endgame, RvR (PvP, basically), and had no more need for PvE content, you'd basically login and look for a group. This could be instant, having messages queued up as soon as the game finished loading, but it could take literal hours, too. Being a class that didn't work great solo, in a game that wasn't really meant to be played by yourself to begin with, meant I spent a lot of time sitting around, literally doing nothing but chat. I'd sit my character down in Emain's Albion Portal Keep, place some LFG message, and get down to chatting with friends until I'd either give up and quit, got a group, or spoke for so long that I'd go to bed.
The whole multiplayer experience, and the way you experience a game's community, vary by game and person, but I've never had a remotely similar experience to the one I had in DAoC in any game since. Though I can't be arsed to check, I think I've still got old CDs somewhere with screenshots, chat logs and custom GUIs. Thinking back now, about a decade after having quit the game, I can still remember a bunch of the names that would appear in the friends list or group status window of those screenshots, along with some of the more memorable fights/raids. I still remember conversations I had and times I got scolded for staying up late, carrying on conversations but being too tired to bother actually playing. Whether you were good at your particular character class was probably most important, but whether people liked and remembered you came close. Certain players were known for organising raids, helping a lot of new players out, or notorious for being complete pricks or scamming people out of loot.
Having spent a decent amount of time in FFXIV, I can't think of the name of a single player or even guildmember. Sure, it's quite far from a 1-1 comparison between the two games in any way, but I think a fair bit of this has to do with the fact that you don't really have to talk or socialise the way you used to. In DAoC, and I imagine other old MMOs, making friends and networking was absolutely vital. Now, it seems mostly optional. This is probably a good thing overall, at least gameplay-wise, but I think the need to interact with others in a MMO was primarily a good thing.
Anyway, crap, my reply turned into an essay
Yarly, tis me.
Now, were they to go on a steady diatribe in an inappropriate place, say like a gaming forum or in game then yes, I'll attempt to take any appropriate action including killing their in game avatar if friendly fire is permitted.
I understand people are quite different from me, but when it comes to civility and respectful behavior I feel those apply in many social situations and almost everyone understands the difference between right and wrong behaviors.
We all know better than to swear in a courtroom, but a bar is probably OK if there aren't a lot of nuns or children nearby.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"God, grant me the Serenity, to accept the things I can not change, Courage to change the things I can, and Wisdom to know the difference."
Bigotry will live on as long as there are differences amongst us humans. But go ahead and try
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
How can "we" know what's what when a large vocal group keep trying to tell everyone "acceptance/tolerance is the answer to all." This is great until they meet something they refuse to "accept or tolerate", like bigotry. So we have conflicting information and standards.
My point is especially hard to argue, because I basically agree with you. But I look to the long road ahead and see a very, very slippery ice-covered slope. It reminds me of the German Pastor, Martin Niemoller's comment about "societal cleansing":
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
There is no defending the biggots and haters. None. But what many people want to do about them is wrong. 100% wrong, in my opinion. And I have to ask, Do you get offended for others, or just yourself? Do you "ban them!" because you think someone may get offended? Or do wait and see if anyone in the bigot's group actually says something?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
The best game community I've participated in online is Wurm Online. Wurm Online is a very true sandbox with players sculpting the land and building up custom cities. People are generally highly helpful in friendly. Even on the PvP servers your own faction is generally quite helpful.
As a full loot PvP game with no factions I was expecting Life as Feudal to be exceptionally toxic like Darkfall or ArcheAge. I've instead found the opposite. When discovered by our neighbors, rather than them raiding us to oblivion they brought food, tools, and money for me to establish our first claim with. Mind you I asked them for nothing, and 2 different groups discovered us and brought gifts. Like Wurm, LiF is a true sandbox with terraforming and major survival elements.
Even in lesser sandboxes with a strong PvP focus like Life is Feudal and EVE all the griefers are also accompanied by things like "New Academy" and "Eve University".
People seem to get more invested in more sandboxy games, and the more altrustic of those who get invested work hard at the betterment of the community.
I will be putting two sugars and extra irony in my coffee this morning.
People are a lot more polite today in my experience than when in the 1980s, 90s, 2000s, etc. I do think it is forced and there is a different kind of pressure to control others and force them to act to polite and also for information to be available to everyone. Equality and knowledge is making cost of living rise and requirements for working fairly outrageous for everyone. I'm not sure if it's better to have people be polite at work and cost of living high or have people be rude and have cost of living lower. There are trade offs to everything. For instance more women working means more competition and makes it more difficult for people who are on single incomes. People don't seem to think about these types of things. They just rush in with their agenda's. I believe the people who benefit the most from this are the people at the top. They don't have to spend time resolving arguments as much and people are killing themselves to survive while preaching how lucky everyone in the society is to do so. Anyone who says differently is 'entitled'.
I believe if most people were taught how to be independent (grow their own food, build their own shelter, etc.) from birth then they would choose that over society. It would give them a greater sense of value of themselves and they wouldn't feel so dependent upon it. Right now there aren't many options for people who want to live outside of society due to overpopulation. There aren't many places left that are free and not hostile to live in.