It's got a long way to go.

delete5230 · March 2018

After sleeping on it, here's my overall conclusion,

Pantheon is not near as far along as we believe.

Without being a video game developer, it seems ALL videos so far are about select parts of the world where the group is demonstrating group play. Infact the latest stream was set in the same dungeon as last. Not much about cities, towns npc's or venders. NOTHING YET ABOUT ACTIVITIES. Not too long ago they were showing a video on beginning to build a capitol city. Not too long ago they showed the group starting their journey at a hub, however this hub only showed two buildings and maybe one or two npcs without interaction.

Many seem let down by the latest stream saying combat was lengthy causing it to be boring. Hallways and rooms too generic but high end. However playing this type of combat is much much better being played instead of watching, this is true, yet lengthy none the less. In all videos, this has two problems:

1) Keeping a group of 6 interested without leaving (even for the most hard core).
2) Groups don't move very far across the land or dungeons (not getting anything accomplished).

Disappointing ?............. Not really, it's just not that far along....... It's like they're are experimenting to find balance.

Unique High end graphics are keeping development time slow. Lets hope coding is good and can be played on many computers. Let's hope they don't run out of money. This is my concern.

I don't go by what I read, I go by what I see, and it's only my opinion.

Eldrach · March 2018

As a hardcore Everquest player, i've been in these kinds of groups more times than i can count (ok, not really, but still..you get the point). The motivation is usually rare loot, but what keeps you in a group is almost always the social interaction. As long as they're using an "open dungeon" approach. "Getting known" in the community and social interaction both within the group and within the zone creates a "life of it's own". The combat often "seems" easy, but things like crowd control..back and forth taunting when pumping cooldowns etc is excellent gameplay mechanics.

What we're not seeing is the environmental consideration aswell. They've already claimed to have certain abilities being affected by where you are..Meaning some places you'll want to use different spell decks in order to be effective..so there will be more to consider than you think even in "mundane" group dungeons

delete5230 · March 2018

Eldrach said:

As a hardcore Everquest player, i've been in these kinds of groups more times than i can count (ok, not really, but still..you get the point). The motivation is usually rare loot, but what keeps you in a group is almost always the social interaction. As long as they're using an "open dungeon" approach. "Getting known" in the community and social interaction both within the group and within the zone creates a "life of it's own". The combat often "seems" easy, but things like crowd control..back and forth taunting when pumping cooldowns etc is excellent gameplay mechanics.

What we're not seeing is the environmental consideration aswell. They've already claimed to have certain abilities being affected by where you are..Meaning some places you'll want to use different spell decks in order to be effective..so there will be more to consider than you think even in "mundane" group dungeons

I'm with you on that...... I'm ALL about social interaction.

But a good balance is needed.

Millions would like to play Pantheon. Not everyone will be in one of the 14 or so hardcore guilds with a common bond of sticking EVERY activity out to the end and for hours.

Important:
Most Guilds will be "fun guilds"..... They need a game too !

Eldrach · March 2018

delete5230 said:

Eldrach said:

As a hardcore Everquest player, i've been in these kinds of groups more times than i can count (ok, not really, but still..you get the point). The motivation is usually rare loot, but what keeps you in a group is almost always the social interaction. As long as they're using an "open dungeon" approach. "Getting known" in the community and social interaction both within the group and within the zone creates a "life of it's own". The combat often "seems" easy, but things like crowd control..back and forth taunting when pumping cooldowns etc is excellent gameplay mechanics.

What we're not seeing is the environmental consideration aswell. They've already claimed to have certain abilities being affected by where you are..Meaning some places you'll want to use different spell decks in order to be effective..so there will be more to consider than you think even in "mundane" group dungeons

I'm with you on that...... I'm ALL about social interaction.

But a good balance is needed.

Millions would like to play Pantheon. Not everyone will be in one of the 14 or so hardcore guilds with a common bond of sticking EVERY activity out to the end and for hours.

Important:
Most Guilds will be "fun guilds"..... They need a game too !

Well. Take Everquests most popular dungeon -Sebillis- . You enter the zone, go "bla bla looking for group"...and either there's an open spot somewhere..or you'll be put on a list. If you're on a list you're free to leave and pursue solo content while waiting for a group. If you're in a hardcore guild you'll probably get a group faster..But it doesn't mean there aren't other good options

Eldrach · March 2018

However i do agree that Pantheon needs more Solo content that Everquest had. I generally loved how "Velketor" worked. You could solo spiders in the lower regions and even get some rare loot now and then while waiting for group. It was good exp and you had something to do while waiting. Velketor was sadly one of the only dungeons that had solo options in EQ, and the game suffered for it

kjempff · March 2018

delete5230 said:
Millions would like to play Pantheon.

Got to correct you there. Visionary Realms know they are making a niche product, that is not supposed to attract "millions" of players. I have heard them say numbers like 10k, and "if we get 30k players that would exceed our expectations". Let's be careful not to put the "Savior of all that is wrong with mmos" label on Pantheon as well, and project our hopes into a game - Color me cynical, but I lost faith in that ever happening.. and at least, there is no indication so far that Visionary Realms has the size or ambition to try to be that.
At this point it looks like they are remaking Everquest with a few additions, and the audience for that is pretty much only old Everquest players. Hopefully enough to keep the game running after launch, and if the gameplay quality is good enough and there is enough content to keep players interested, then we might begin to see it grown in numbers, but a full million ? I doubt that will ever happen, it is too niche for that.

delete5230 · March 2018

kjempff said:

delete5230 said:
Millions would like to play Pantheon.

Got to correct you there. Visionary Realms know they are making a niche product, that is not supposed to attract "millions" of players. I have heard them say numbers like 10k, and "if we get 30k players that would exceed our expectations". Let's be careful not to put the "Savior of all that is wrong with mmos" label on Pantheon as well, and project our hopes into a game - Color me cynical, but I lost faith in that ever happening.. and at least, there is no indication so far that Visionary Realms has the size or ambition to try to be that.
At this point it looks like they are remaking Everquest with a few additions, and the audience for that is pretty much only old Everquest players. Hopefully enough to keep the game running after launch, and if the gameplay quality is good enough and there is enough content to keep players interested, then we might begin to see it grown in numbers, but a full million ? I doubt that will ever happen, it is too niche for that.

Ok but four hallways in an hour and a half ?

Subtract a little screwing around time, maybe 6 ?

Or in other videos across one field ?

Eldrach · March 2018

There will be -alot- of tuning both towards mob HP, pacing etc. The current combat is more a proof of concept than a finished product. It doesn't take a long time to tripple the amount of mobs and cut their hp in three if they wanted to do so

1AD7 · March 2018

kjempff said:

delete5230 said:
Millions would like to play Pantheon.

Got to correct you there. Visionary Realms know they are making a niche product, that is not supposed to attract "millions" of players. I have heard them say numbers like 10k, and "if we get 30k players that would exceed our expectations". Let's be careful not to put the "Savior of all that is wrong with mmos" label on Pantheon as well, and project our hopes into a game - Color me cynical, but I lost faith in that ever happening.. and at least, there is no indication so far that Visionary Realms has the size or ambition to try to be that.
At this point it looks like they are remaking Everquest with a few additions, and the audience for that is pretty much only old Everquest players. Hopefully enough to keep the game running after launch, and if the gameplay quality is good enough and there is enough content to keep players interested, then we might begin to see it grown in numbers, but a full million ? I doubt that will ever happen, it is too niche for that.

Your numbers seem to be a bit off. Here is an excerpt from one of Brad's blogs:

"But our target audience is bigger than that group. We are casting a broader net, so to speak. We are absolutely convinced that a large group of younger players will end up loving the game, assuming we can reach them, show them something that seems fun and interesting, provide answers to their questions no matter how simple or sophisticated. These people love Dark Souls, Call of Duty, the better MOBAs, the survival games -- they crave both challenge and risk and reward, but they also crave experiencing these things together with other real people. There's just something that's part of human nature where if you experience something exciting, dangerous, tension-filled, etc. and you experience that with other actual people, those events have a greater impact and create much deeper and longer lasting memories. So our challenge (the dev team and the community's) is to figure out how to reach these groups and explain to them what they're looking at, why things work the way they work, and how much FUN these games can be.

And just so you don't think I'm too crazy, no, I don't think the vast majority of these audiences and demographics will all be magically drawn to the game. But, as I've posted before, we're not making a game that is all things to all people. If we can reach a reasonable percentage of those who already do love Pantheon AND those who would once given a chance to experience it, then we will have success, the game will grow, expansions with new content and crazy new features will be released, and we'll have another game on our hands that's still running even 17 years after launch. 15 million online gamers (a conservative number, btw)? 10% is still 1.5M. 1% is 150,000 gamers. EQ was very successful and profitable at 150,000 gamers, peaking at 550k. Small numbers yes when compared later to WoW, but plenty large enough to employ a dedicated dev team, live teams, expansion teams, support and GM/CS teams, etc. etc. Especially a company like Visionary Realms, where we run lean and mean. We don't have huge overheads, a publisher who takes a huge cut, needless bureaucracy, 9-5ers, people who won't wear multiple hats and do whatever it takes. And while I'm convinced we will be much closer to 10% than 1%, probably even higher, the point is that while we don't need a massive ton of people to achieve success, we do need to make a large number of people aware and familiar with the game."

Amathe · March 2018

delete5230 said:

Unique High end graphics are keeping development time slow.

How would you know?

Sovrath · March 2018

kjempff said:

delete5230 said:
Millions would like to play Pantheon.

Got to correct you there. Visionary Realms know they are making a niche product, that is not supposed to attract "millions" of players. I have heard them say numbers like 10k, and "if we get 30k players that would exceed our expectations". Let's be careful not to put the "Savior of all that is wrong with mmos" label on Pantheon as well, and project our hopes into a game - Color me cynical, but I lost faith in that ever happening.. and at least, there is no indication so far that Visionary Realms has the size or ambition to try to be that.
At this point it looks like they are remaking Everquest with a few additions, and the audience for that is pretty much only old Everquest players. Hopefully enough to keep the game running after launch, and if the gameplay quality is good enough and there is enough content to keep players interested, then we might begin to see it grown in numbers, but a full million ? I doubt that will ever happen, it is too niche for that.

You aren't cynical, you are correct. They are making a niche game. They were always making a niche game.

Mendel · March 2018

1AD7 said:

kjempff said:

delete5230 said:
Millions would like to play Pantheon.

Got to correct you there. Visionary Realms know they are making a niche product, that is not supposed to attract "millions" of players. I have heard them say numbers like 10k, and "if we get 30k players that would exceed our expectations". Let's be careful not to put the "Savior of all that is wrong with mmos" label on Pantheon as well, and project our hopes into a game - Color me cynical, but I lost faith in that ever happening.. and at least, there is no indication so far that Visionary Realms has the size or ambition to try to be that.
At this point it looks like they are remaking Everquest with a few additions, and the audience for that is pretty much only old Everquest players. Hopefully enough to keep the game running after launch, and if the gameplay quality is good enough and there is enough content to keep players interested, then we might begin to see it grown in numbers, but a full million ? I doubt that will ever happen, it is too niche for that.

Your numbers seem to be a bit off. Here is an excerpt from one of Brad's blogs:

"But our target audience is bigger than that group. We are casting a broader net, so to speak. We are absolutely convinced that a large group of younger players will end up loving the game, assuming we can reach them, show them something that seems fun and interesting, provide answers to their questions no matter how simple or sophisticated. These people love Dark Souls, Call of Duty, the better MOBAs, the survival games -- they crave both challenge and risk and reward, but they also crave experiencing these things together with other real people. There's just something that's part of human nature where if you experience something exciting, dangerous, tension-filled, etc. and you experience that with other actual people, those events have a greater impact and create much deeper and longer lasting memories. So our challenge (the dev team and the community's) is to figure out how to reach these groups and explain to them what they're looking at, why things work the way they work, and how much FUN these games can be.

And just so you don't think I'm too crazy, no, I don't think the vast majority of these audiences and demographics will all be magically drawn to the game. But, as I've posted before, we're not making a game that is all things to all people. If we can reach a reasonable percentage of those who already do love Pantheon AND those who would once given a chance to experience it, then we will have success, the game will grow, expansions with new content and crazy new features will be released, and we'll have another game on our hands that's still running even 17 years after launch. 15 million online gamers (a conservative number, btw)? 10% is still 1.5M. 1% is 150,000 gamers. EQ was very successful and profitable at 150,000 gamers, peaking at 550k. Small numbers yes when compared later to WoW, but plenty large enough to employ a dedicated dev team, live teams, expansion teams, support and GM/CS teams, etc. etc. Especially a company like Visionary Realms, where we run lean and mean. We don't have huge overheads, a publisher who takes a huge cut, needless bureaucracy, 9-5ers, people who won't wear multiple hats and do whatever it takes. And while I'm convinced we will be much closer to 10% than 1%, probably even higher, the point is that while we don't need a massive ton of people to achieve success, we do need to make a large number of people aware and familiar with the game."

Here's that Brad quote again. If he's so convinced that his future players are off playing Call of Duty, where is the marketing plan that VR will use to attract these players from CoD? And how is he planning to churn out new content as fast as CoD in order to keep those players playing Pantheon?

I see a lot of wishful thinking, but no real plan of action or even evidence of one. That's all VR's issue. Right now, this game is being shown to MMORPG gamers almost exclusively, with the only limited feedback from MMORPG gamers. What features from games like CoD or DS are they trying to incorporate into Pantheon to help attract those other players?

It's like spending all your time and effort on building a new rod-and-reel, and expecting the elk-hunting crowd to want to buy your product.

Sovrath · March 2018

1AD7 said:

Your numbers seem to be a bit off. Here is an excerpt from one of Brad's blogs:

Well, "we'll see".

given how many people complain about the animations, the graphics, the speed of the combat, I'm going to go with thinking Brad is a bit wrong.

Also, he uses Dark Souls as an example. Dark Souls is extremely beautiful with its aesthetic, it's very unique. It's not enough for people to want challenge, many also want attractive visuals (and I get it, I'm a visual person. I also know when to set that aside).

I think he will get his million just because "people are bored" (so want to slap them) but retaining that amount? I doubt it.

Also, delete seems to think that these streams are there to give an overview of the entire game. They aren't. Not yet. Patience Delete, they aren't even in alpha.

Ungood · March 2018

I dunno, I think the game is doing fine, in fact it might be a novel MMO experience to not land a billion blows in half a second.

1AD7 · March 2018

@Sovrath: If someone is making a big deal about animations, graphics, or speed of combat ... it's a self inflicted issue. I don't know how many "This is Pre-Alpha, we're using a variety of placeholders and combat is still really early in development" disclaimers need to be shared but it's always been consistent. Personally, I care less about graphics and more about gameplay. My wife is the opposite. I have watched several streams with her and she is blown away by the idea that a game like Pantheon (without instances) can look so phenomenal while still in pre-alpha.

@Mendel: As far as VR advertising to CoD players ... I don't think that would make much sense at this point. They seem to be going out of their way to manage hype levels (and expectations) while being in such an early stage of development. I wouldn't be surprised to see a pretty broad marketing campaign later on when the game is more polished but for now, word-of-mouth is mostly community driven. You don't air commercials toward the entire sport enthusiast demographic while you're still building the rod and reel.

Mikeha · March 2018

Looks so boring to me. Even the people that play on the streams show no type of emotion or excitement.

Also every video is the same showing the worst part of the game which is the horrible looking combat.

Sovrath · March 2018

Mikeha said:

Looks so boring to me. Even the people that play on the streams show no type of emotion or excitement.

Also every video is the same showing the worst part of the game which is the horrible looking combat.

The only "non developer" there was the streamer and he was very excited.

Developers have a completely different relationship with their work (and I'm going to point this out for all people who create things) and there is a lot more depth and thought into what they are doing other than "OH BOY OH BOY".

I'll also add, as I'm finishing up a large mod (recording dialogue) that when I go through it I'm not thinking about fun so much as "oh, I need to cap off that wall, oh, there are floor tiles not aligned, oh, I need to change the rewards in this area". etc.

The combat is very specific to this type of game. It's no different than Everquest combat or even Vanguard combat.

If you don't like it great but you probably aren't the demographic they are aiming for.

Mendel · March 2018

1AD7 said:

@Sovrath: If someone is making a big deal about animations, graphics, or speed of combat ... it's a self inflicted issue. I don't know how many "This is Pre-Alpha, we're using a variety of placeholders and combat is still really early in development" disclaimers need to be shared but it's always been consistent. Personally, I care less about graphics and more about gameplay. My wife is the opposite. I have watched several streams with her and she is blown away by the idea that a game like Pantheon (without instances) can look so phenomenal while still in pre-alpha.

@Mendel: As far as VR advertising to CoD players ... I don't think that would make much sense at this point. They seem to be going out of their way to manage hype levels (and expectations) while being in such an early stage of development. I wouldn't be surprised to see a pretty broad marketing campaign later on when the game is more polished but for now, word-of-mouth is mostly community driven. You don't air commercials toward the entire sport enthusiast demographic while you're still building the rod and reel.

I agree, it is too early for directed advertising. But not for getting some preliminary feedback from what that audience likes and dislikes. Have VR reached out to current players of these other games? Maybe they have, but it is difficult to see any evidence of that, and it takes time for a computer game to incorporate ideas that appeal to that segment of the market.

To your response to Sovrath's comment. High-end graphics is a self-inflicted issue, but it is also a commonality in the gamers preferences for competing games. It will be a selling point and that potential customer's decision point when trying to attract non-MMORPG players to their game. Pre-alpha may be a thing, but these Streams are establishing players expectations, both positive and negative. The gamer who values the visual aspects highly isn't likely to be impressed by what they are seeing.

For the record, I personally have no issue with the graphics. The availability of things like Stream videos is another thing. I think the desire 'to see' before launch does about as much harm as it does good.

jpedrote52 · March 2018

Mendel said:

1AD7 said:

kjempff said:

delete5230 said:
Millions would like to play Pantheon.

Got to correct you there. Visionary Realms know they are making a niche product, that is not supposed to attract "millions" of players. I have heard them say numbers like 10k, and "if we get 30k players that would exceed our expectations". Let's be careful not to put the "Savior of all that is wrong with mmos" label on Pantheon as well, and project our hopes into a game - Color me cynical, but I lost faith in that ever happening.. and at least, there is no indication so far that Visionary Realms has the size or ambition to try to be that.
At this point it looks like they are remaking Everquest with a few additions, and the audience for that is pretty much only old Everquest players. Hopefully enough to keep the game running after launch, and if the gameplay quality is good enough and there is enough content to keep players interested, then we might begin to see it grown in numbers, but a full million ? I doubt that will ever happen, it is too niche for that.

Your numbers seem to be a bit off. Here is an excerpt from one of Brad's blogs:

"But our target audience is bigger than that group. We are casting a broader net, so to speak. We are absolutely convinced that a large group of younger players will end up loving the game, assuming we can reach them, show them something that seems fun and interesting, provide answers to their questions no matter how simple or sophisticated. These people love Dark Souls, Call of Duty, the better MOBAs, the survival games -- they crave both challenge and risk and reward, but they also crave experiencing these things together with other real people. There's just something that's part of human nature where if you experience something exciting, dangerous, tension-filled, etc. and you experience that with other actual people, those events have a greater impact and create much deeper and longer lasting memories. So our challenge (the dev team and the community's) is to figure out how to reach these groups and explain to them what they're looking at, why things work the way they work, and how much FUN these games can be.

And just so you don't think I'm too crazy, no, I don't think the vast majority of these audiences and demographics will all be magically drawn to the game. But, as I've posted before, we're not making a game that is all things to all people. If we can reach a reasonable percentage of those who already do love Pantheon AND those who would once given a chance to experience it, then we will have success, the game will grow, expansions with new content and crazy new features will be released, and we'll have another game on our hands that's still running even 17 years after launch. 15 million online gamers (a conservative number, btw)? 10% is still 1.5M. 1% is 150,000 gamers. EQ was very successful and profitable at 150,000 gamers, peaking at 550k. Small numbers yes when compared later to WoW, but plenty large enough to employ a dedicated dev team, live teams, expansion teams, support and GM/CS teams, etc. etc. Especially a company like Visionary Realms, where we run lean and mean. We don't have huge overheads, a publisher who takes a huge cut, needless bureaucracy, 9-5ers, people who won't wear multiple hats and do whatever it takes. And while I'm convinced we will be much closer to 10% than 1%, probably even higher, the point is that while we don't need a massive ton of people to achieve success, we do need to make a large number of people aware and familiar with the game."

Here's that Brad quote again. If he's so convinced that his future players are off playing Call of Duty, where is the marketing plan that VR will use to attract these players from CoD? And how is he planning to churn out new content as fast as CoD in order to keep those players playing Pantheon?

I see a lot of wishful thinking, but no real plan of action or even evidence of one. That's all VR's issue. Right now, this game is being shown to MMORPG gamers almost exclusively, with the only limited feedback from MMORPG gamers. What features from games like CoD or DS are they trying to incorporate into Pantheon to help attract those other players?

It's like spending all your time and effort on building a new rod-and-reel, and expecting the elk-hunting crowd to want to buy your product.

You must be deluded or something, Pantheon will always be an MMO, when brad referenced Call of duty and Darksouls, hes referencing that those younger player might end up enjoying the type of game Pantheon is (an oldschool MMO focussed around grouping cooperation and player interaction), he's not saying that Pantheon will resemble CoD that would be retarded.

Also Darksoul and CoD do share in a basic level, similarities with Pantheon, Dark souls has corpse runs, and hardcore elements, it's a fantasy medieval game, and CoD has group play at is core (in the online part of the game atleast) that's the similarities Pantheon and those games have in common, and that might lead to some of that younger audience actually enjoying Pantheon.

As for marketing, the game is in pre-alpha for christ sake, until recently the game look like a game from 2010/12, with the new graphics update, lightning etc they made it look like a 2016 game and most of the Graphics complaints stopped, but there's still much more to improve, the animations are a major point of contention that get brought up every single time and still need a lot of improvement, because you guessed it the game is still in pre-alpha. So why would they start putting heavy funding into advertising and unfinished project and possibly turning off all the possible new costumers because they're showing and unfinished product? Not to mention how hard it is to advertise an MMO, normally it's done by "deceiving" out of game cinematics that make everything look cool as shit, but VR does not have that kind of money for a proper one, So they stick to their original target audience that knows how MMORPG's play out, and are currently relying on word of mouth from players who know how the gameplay experience will be and can properly spread the workd about the game wihtout turning off the newcommers.

[mod edit]

Sovrath · March 2018

Mendel said:

1AD7 said:

@Sovrath: If someone is making a big deal about animations, graphics, or speed of combat ... it's a self inflicted issue. I don't know how many "This is Pre-Alpha, we're using a variety of placeholders and combat is still really early in development" disclaimers need to be shared but it's always been consistent. Personally, I care less about graphics and more about gameplay. My wife is the opposite. I have watched several streams with her and she is blown away by the idea that a game like Pantheon (without instances) can look so phenomenal while still in pre-alpha.

@Mendel: As far as VR advertising to CoD players ... I don't think that would make much sense at this point. They seem to be going out of their way to manage hype levels (and expectations) while being in such an early stage of development. I wouldn't be surprised to see a pretty broad marketing campaign later on when the game is more polished but for now, word-of-mouth is mostly community driven. You don't air commercials toward the entire sport enthusiast demographic while you're still building the rod and reel.

I agree, it is too early for directed advertising. But not for getting some preliminary feedback from what that audience likes and dislikes. Have VR reached out to current players of these other games? Maybe they have, but it is difficult to see any evidence of that, and it takes time for a computer game to incorporate ideas that appeal to that segment of the market.

To your response to Sovrath's comment. High-end graphics is a self-inflicted issue, but it is also a commonality in the gamers preferences for competing games. It will be a selling point and that potential customer's decision point when trying to attract non-MMORPG players to their game. Pre-alpha may be a thing, but these Streams are establishing players expectations, both positive and negative. The gamer who values the visual aspects highly isn't likely to be impressed by what they are seeing.

For the record, I personally have no issue with the graphics. The availability of things like Stream videos is another thing. I think the desire 'to see' before launch does about as much harm as it does good.

The "graphics" aren't going to get leagues better. This is an indy game. This is not going to have cutting edge visuals.

I'm sure they would "love them some cutting edge eye candy" but that's not going to happen. I would say that this will probably be a bit better than Vanguard (given the technology available) and that's what people are going to have to deal with.

So yeah, the average "gamer" will not be going for this game.

Mendel · March 2018

jpedrote52 said:

Mendel said:

1AD7 said:

kjempff said:

delete5230 said:
Millions would like to play Pantheon.

Got to correct you there. Visionary Realms know they are making a niche product, that is not supposed to attract "millions" of players. I have heard them say numbers like 10k, and "if we get 30k players that would exceed our expectations". Let's be careful not to put the "Savior of all that is wrong with mmos" label on Pantheon as well, and project our hopes into a game - Color me cynical, but I lost faith in that ever happening.. and at least, there is no indication so far that Visionary Realms has the size or ambition to try to be that.
At this point it looks like they are remaking Everquest with a few additions, and the audience for that is pretty much only old Everquest players. Hopefully enough to keep the game running after launch, and if the gameplay quality is good enough and there is enough content to keep players interested, then we might begin to see it grown in numbers, but a full million ? I doubt that will ever happen, it is too niche for that.

Your numbers seem to be a bit off. Here is an excerpt from one of Brad's blogs:

"But our target audience is bigger than that group. We are casting a broader net, so to speak. We are absolutely convinced that a large group of younger players will end up loving the game, assuming we can reach them, show them something that seems fun and interesting, provide answers to their questions no matter how simple or sophisticated. These people love Dark Souls, Call of Duty, the better MOBAs, the survival games -- they crave both challenge and risk and reward, but they also crave experiencing these things together with other real people. There's just something that's part of human nature where if you experience something exciting, dangerous, tension-filled, etc. and you experience that with other actual people, those events have a greater impact and create much deeper and longer lasting memories. So our challenge (the dev team and the community's) is to figure out how to reach these groups and explain to them what they're looking at, why things work the way they work, and how much FUN these games can be.

And just so you don't think I'm too crazy, no, I don't think the vast majority of these audiences and demographics will all be magically drawn to the game. But, as I've posted before, we're not making a game that is all things to all people. If we can reach a reasonable percentage of those who already do love Pantheon AND those who would once given a chance to experience it, then we will have success, the game will grow, expansions with new content and crazy new features will be released, and we'll have another game on our hands that's still running even 17 years after launch. 15 million online gamers (a conservative number, btw)? 10% is still 1.5M. 1% is 150,000 gamers. EQ was very successful and profitable at 150,000 gamers, peaking at 550k. Small numbers yes when compared later to WoW, but plenty large enough to employ a dedicated dev team, live teams, expansion teams, support and GM/CS teams, etc. etc. Especially a company like Visionary Realms, where we run lean and mean. We don't have huge overheads, a publisher who takes a huge cut, needless bureaucracy, 9-5ers, people who won't wear multiple hats and do whatever it takes. And while I'm convinced we will be much closer to 10% than 1%, probably even higher, the point is that while we don't need a massive ton of people to achieve success, we do need to make a large number of people aware and familiar with the game."

Here's that Brad quote again. If he's so convinced that his future players are off playing Call of Duty, where is the marketing plan that VR will use to attract these players from CoD? And how is he planning to churn out new content as fast as CoD in order to keep those players playing Pantheon?

I see a lot of wishful thinking, but no real plan of action or even evidence of one. That's all VR's issue. Right now, this game is being shown to MMORPG gamers almost exclusively, with the only limited feedback from MMORPG gamers. What features from games like CoD or DS are they trying to incorporate into Pantheon to help attract those other players?

It's like spending all your time and effort on building a new rod-and-reel, and expecting the elk-hunting crowd to want to buy your product.

You must be deluded or something, Pantheon will always be an MMO, when brad referenced Call of duty and Darksouls, hes referencing that those younger player might end up enjoying the type of game Pantheon is (an oldschool MMO focussed around grouping cooperation and player interaction), he's not saying that Pantheon will resemble CoD that would be retarded.

Also Darksoul and CoD do share in a basic level, similarities with Pantheon, Dark souls has corpse runs, and hardcore elements, it's a fantasy medieval game, and CoD has group play at is core (in the online part of the game atleast) that's the similarities Pantheon and those games have in common, and that might lead to some of that younger audience actually enjoying Pantheon.

As for marketing, the game is in pre-alpha for christ sake, until recently the game look like a game from 2010/12, with the new graphics update, lightning etc they made it look like a 2016 game and most of the Graphics complaints stopped, but there's still much more to improve, the animations are a major point of contention that get brought up every single time and still need a lot of improvement, because you guessed it the game is still in pre-alpha. So why would they start putting heavy funding into advertising and unfinished project and possibly turning off all the possible new costumers because they're showing and unfinished product? Not to mention how hard it is to advertise an MMO, normally it's done by "deceiving" out of game cinematics that make everything look cool as shit, but VR does not have that kind of money for a proper one, So they stick to their original target audience that knows how MMORPG's play out, and are currently relying on word of mouth from players who know how the gameplay experience will be and can properly spread the workd about the game wihtout turning off the newcommers.

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So, insults aside, how will VR market this to other types of gamers when the time comes? It is Brad's opinion that a portion of his future customers are playing other current games, not mine. He's the one who is going to need to find a way to attract them. What elements that will appeal to those players?

PottedPlant22 · March 2018

Mendel said:
So, insults aside, how will VR market this to other types of gamers when the time comes? It is Brad's opinion that a portion of his future customers are playing other current games, not mine. He's the one who is going to need to find a way to attract them. What elements that will appeal to those players?

I think what they are saying is that players (specifically here young players) are sometimes looking for and enjoy a challenge. Brad is arguing that the current understanding of what an MMORPG can be is not what people think of today. He's saying that people might have not checked out the genre because it's a different animal than what it was in the past. By showing people a challenge and introducing them to what an older school MMORPG is, he's hoping that some of them will like it and try the game out.

This link might help on detailing some of the things that make the game different form many of the offerings out there today.

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/

Sovrath · March 2018

Mendel said:

So, insults aside, how will VR market this to other types of gamers when the time comes? It is Brad's opinion that a portion of his future customers are playing other current games, not mine. He's the one who is going to need to find a way to attract them. What elements that will appeal to those players?

He won't, he's wrong.

As I mentioned, he likens it to Dark Souls which, against all thoughts to the contrary because of the type of game it is, gathered a large (enough) and devoted following.

This game doesn't have the mystique of a dark souls, it might be challenging but it's only going to entice those who want an old school feel, those who are curious, and those who are "bored" only to have them rush to the forums after 10 minutes to tell us how they hated the game as it didn't have anything modern games have, it was slow, its graphics weren't good, etc etc etc.

Dkompoze · March 2018

I would be willing to bet that the majority of complaints about this game are coming from younger gamers, who weren't around for the old Everquest experience.

As an Everquest and Vanguard player i am overly excited about this game. I think it looks beautiful and the combat is challenging just like the old EQ days.

Im just hoping this young internet crybaby generation doesn't bash the game to hard because its something they don't want to play and they cant run a dungeon in 10 min and kill 100 mobs in one hit. It definitely is directed at a certain audience and im afraid the audience that its not directed at doesn't understand the type of game it is and is meant to be and who its demographic is

Mendel · March 2018

PottedPlant22 said:

Mendel said:
So, insults aside, how will VR market this to other types of gamers when the time comes? It is Brad's opinion that a portion of his future customers are playing other current games, not mine. He's the one who is going to need to find a way to attract them. What elements that will appeal to those players?

I think what they are saying is that players (specifically here young players) are sometimes looking for and enjoy a challenge. Brad is arguing that the current understanding of what an MMORPG can be is not what people think of today. He's saying that people might have not checked out the genre because it's a different animal than what it was in the past. By showing people a challenge and introducing them to what an older school MMORPG is, he's hoping that some of them will like it and try the game out.

This link might help on detailing some of the things that make the game different form many of the offerings out there today.

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/

While I get that Brad is arguing that MMORPGs can be different from what we think of today, I'm not convinced that Brad is doing anything to educate himself about the customers he wishes to attract. Without that knowledge (and feedback), the likelihood of Pantheon including elements that will appeal to players outside the narrow EQ1 space. As he suggested in the earlier quote, he doesn't think that his players will be solely comprised of EQ1 veterans. I don't see VR doing anything to incorporate elements into Pantheon expressly to help convert these non-EQ1 players. It smacks of a 'build it and they will come' attitude.

And we're back to the Pantheon Difference again. That's a matter of belief. Believe in the developers pre-development descriptions. No room to question how that is interpreted. The only thing that will matter is how these ideas and goals are implemented, and no one has seen the final form of that.

1AD7 · March 2018

I have played a large variety of online games. Plenty of FPS, Survival, MOBA's, RTS, etc. MMO's have always been my favorite and I see plenty of ways that VR can attract the audience of other genres. The fact that Brad was citing those other games as a potential market tells me that he knows what he is talking about. His thoughts may not resonate with everybody but they make plenty of sense to me. The focus on cooperation, challenge, strategy, and social elements is highly attractive to a broad demographic of players. The hard part is building a world that doesn't cater to any specific player type. I feel Brad is making a conscious effort to build a world (and a game) that will allow all of these folks to not only coexist, but thrive together. It's easier said than done and that's why I am confident that Pantheon will truly be an "MMO Evolved." They have the team, experience, and deep understanding of player interests to make it happen.

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