If you are playing an MMORPG you should expect to be grouping with people. I am not talking about FFXI type grouping but grouping like you had to in Vanilla WOW. Otherwise you should play a single player game. MSORPG which is what we have today is why the genera is crap. There are tons of single player games for players who dont ever want to play with people.
I'm going to have to disagree with that. This whole attitude of "you should be doing x and if not then do what 'I' think you should do and do y" just doesn't wash.
What one should expect to do is to, at the very least, be ready to deal with/work with people.
But I suppose part of this is predicated on the idea that an mmorpg is supposed to be (at least originally) a world.
It makes sense that one isn't always going to be "grouping with" people i.e. dealing with/working with people all the time.
I DO think that it's ok for having content that is so challenging that it requires a group. But I also think that depending on how the game is set up, it should be ok to pass on that.
I say "set up" because if the game is designed to solely be a group centric game then of course one is going to have to group (or else don't play it).
But mmorpg's can have a variety of activities and unless it's a grouping only game, I think it's ok for people to find their own fun.
Sometimes just being around people is fun enough.
I agree, but think it needs to be expounded upon:
I think the net got too big for the genre. The attempts to cater to all and pleasing no one type of thing. The genre could use games focused on a specific experience, whether that revolves around group content or story content or what have you.
Games that attempt to please all types are creating too much work for themselves to reasonably accomplish. Crowdfunding efforts, at least, have returned to focusing on providing an excellent specific experience, instead of trying to provide an experience for everyone's tastes. That's a good thing. In that context, if you're creating an MMORPG, it's worth it to know what kind of gamers you're going after and building the game around that taste, instead of trying to include all different tastes.
I agree and that is part of the issue with developers. Someone in the business decides that their game needs to make x dollars. Not only that but it needs to continue to make y dollars.
So they start throwing in everything but the kitchen sink.
Also, it seems that game developers need to think smaller if they are going to be successful. This is unfortunate as players have become spoiled and expect all games to look so polished and beautiful that it makes their heads spin. Developers aren't going to be able to make smaller games that cater to specific players if they have to make $100 million games each time.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
@ikcin - Everyone is entitled to their opinion but anyone who does not believe solo gameplay options are vital for the success of MMOs, and the grinding is what is killing the genre, is simply wrong.
MMOs are not meant to be games that you play here and there. They are meant to be your primary games that you invest hours into every day. Guildies aren't always online and a lot of people strongly dislike PUGs. That, and sometimes people log in not wanting to do anything too exerting. They kind of want something to take their minds off a challenging day at work or school, and some highly challenging group content where their mistakes let down their whole team doesn't fit that bill. Solo content is vital because of this. "Go play a single player game if you want to solo" is narrow, ignorant, and genre harming approach.
As to repetitive grinding being the true cause of MMO failure. I say this for two reasons:
1. The vast majority of people I know who leave MMOs either directly cite grinding or cite a grinding related issue as their reason for leaving. 2. All of the most popular online games pushing the MMO industry out are games with little to no grinding. Straight up no grinding in the case of the three most successful (LoL, PUBG, and Minecraft.)
So like I said, you can have your opinion and disagree, but on the factual issue of what is causing the genre decline I believe their are people who correctly attribute it primarily to the grind, and people who are flat wrong.
If you are playing an MMORPG you should expect to be grouping with people. I am not talking about FFXI type grouping but grouping like you had to in Vanilla WOW. Otherwise you should play a single player game. MSORPG which is what we have today is why the genera is crap. There are tons of single player games for players who dont ever want to play with people.
All I can say is EVE, which I consider to be one of the better MMORPGS ever made and I spent well over 75% of my time playing solo, yet I felt more connected to the other players in more ways than any game outside of DAOC.
Did I group with people? Sure, PVP of course, some mining fleets or even convoys, but rarely was any of it forced
As for grouping as in Vanilla WOW.....did you even 40 man raid bro?
Gaah, 4 to 5 hours a night, 4 to 5 days a week, mandatory. Weekends spent farming mats, faction rep or gear for the next raid.
Pally buffing everyone in two groups every 5 minutes......(rerolled as a Druid Healer on a new server to get away from it)
Got as far as getting ready to tackle the Twin Emps when BC released and killed my raiding guild while erasing my progression.
I was really pissed at the time, but looking back now, Blizzard did me a big favor.
So if thats what a return to hardcore grouping means, count me out.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As far as I understand it they backed off it significantly over the years but WoW actually started out as a forced grouping game in that raid content was absolutely required to progress beyond a certain point. So WoW could be used to illustrate that forced grouping is successful but the fact they have backed away from that approach significantly over the years makes that evidence a lot more shoddy.
EVE on the other hand relies entirely on ISK and tradeable items as the reward for pretty much every type of content. Good ISK can be made through both multiplayer and solo activities. So EVE is a shining example of a game where solo vs. small group vs. large group type content is 100% optional and the player can really do whatever they want at any given time and any level of play.
It's one of the many factors that I feel has contributed to EVE rising from a group of indie nobodies to be one of the most successful titles in the MMO industry over the long term. Very few other titles that existed in 2003 are still as popular as EVE. Especially ones made by previously unknown development teams.
As far as I understand it they backed off it significantly over the years but WoW actually started out as a forced grouping game in that raid content was absolutely required to progress beyond a certain point. So WoW could be used to illustrate that forced grouping is successful but the fact they have backed away from that approach significantly over the years makes that evidence a lot more shoddy.
EVE on the other hand relies entirely on ISK and tradeable items as the reward for pretty much every type of content. Good ISK can be made through both multiplayer and solo activities. So EVE is a shining example of a game where solo vs. small group vs. large group type content is 100% optional and the player can really do whatever they want at any given time and any level of play.
It's one of the many factors that I feel has contributed to EVE rising from a group of indie nobodies to be one of the most successful titles in the MMO industry over the long term. Very few other titles that existed in 2003 are still as popular as EVE. Especially ones made by previously unknown development teams.
That evidence is muddied by the fact that WoW's most popular years were not after they moved toward the solo-heavy expansions, but before.
Part of that is aging, but it's been well-documented that Blizzard hasn't achieved the same level of success with each expansion, even considering the aging of the game.
With that said, if the game focused on PvP, as does EVE, providing multiple avenues to accrue wealth and power makes sense. Not everyone will enter the game with a full guild to back them up. In a PvE game, there's not really direct competition between the players, so you can reserve pieces of content for more complex player endeavors.
The one that is better is whichever one you prefer.
There is nothing wrong with both types of games being on the market for players to choose the ones they like.
"Forced" is a silly word btw. In some games group cooperation is usually needed for success. That doesn't mean it's "forced."
This is true.. but Coerced sounds so insidious.. even if that is what is really going on.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Yeah EVE - a game where you could be attacked anywhere from another player, your containers could be looted, and even your most powerful and expensive ship could be destroyed from a fleet of cheap enemies, does not make you to play with other people? EVE is just a multiplayer game. Even when you are mining solo it is still multiplayer.
While WoW is a singleplayer game - quest after quest, till you are forced to do some raids.
I've been playing even in short spurts on and off since shortly after it became a thing so I'm pretty familiar with the concept.
In all that time I have never been suicide ganked while running missions, and the only attempt to suicide gank my mining ship failed, as have the attempted suicide ganks of my hauler. I've also never had a small tax evasion corp wardecced.
Part of this is playing smart but... the threat posed by suicide gankers is greatly overstated. They're looking for huge score from people who get stupid and haul massive quantities of PLEX or have obscenely expensive mission fits. Not to mess with the general people doing solo content. Groups like CODE live more on overstated reputations than actual deeds.
Of course I've lost plenty of ships in low sec / null / wormhole but that's a totally different case.
Technically, Trove is a Forced Multiplayer game, as you cannot chose to be a in a group or not as you are always in a group with everyone around you.
So if anyone is around you, you are grouped with them, regardless if you wanted to be or not.
So that is one kind of Forced Grouping.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Yeah EVE - a game where you could be attacked anywhere from another player, your containers could be looted, and even your most powerful and expensive ship could be destroyed from a fleet of cheap enemies, does not make you to play with other people? EVE is just a multiplayer game. Even when you are mining solo it is still multiplayer.
While WoW is a singleplayer game - quest after quest, till you are forced to do some raids.
I've been playing even in short spurts on and off since shortly after it became a thing so I'm pretty familiar with the concept.
In all that time I have never been suicide ganked while running missions, and the only attempt to suicide gank my mining ship failed, as have the attempted suicide ganks of my hauler. I've also never had a small tax evasion corp wardecced.
Part of this is playing smart but... the threat posed by suicide gankers is greatly overstated. They're looking for huge score from people who get stupid and haul massive quantities of PLEX or have obscenely expensive mission fits. Not to mess with the general people doing solo content. Groups like CODE live more on overstated reputations than actual deeds.
Of course I've lost plenty of ships in low sec / null / wormhole but that's a totally different case.
So why you played EVE, what was your goal, to grind solo?
Because he could, or wanted to, it's not your place to judge how they use their game time.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Because I wanted to play a multiplayer sandbox with Open World PvP. But sometimes I felt like unwinding for the night and making some easy ISK, or sometimes there simply weren't people to group with doing thing things I wanted to do convenient to me at that very moment in time.
Because MMOs are virtual worlds and in worlds there is both things to do alone and things to do with others. If I wanted to do nothing but run scripted content with a group over and over and over I would play Diablo.
Yeah EVE - a game where you could be attacked anywhere from another player, your containers could be looted, and even your most powerful and expensive ship could be destroyed from a fleet of cheap enemies, does not make you to play with other people? EVE is just a multiplayer game. Even when you are mining solo it is still multiplayer.
While WoW is a singleplayer game - quest after quest, till you are forced to do some raids.
I've been playing even in short spurts on and off since shortly after it became a thing so I'm pretty familiar with the concept.
In all that time I have never been suicide ganked while running missions, and the only attempt to suicide gank my mining ship failed, as have the attempted suicide ganks of my hauler. I've also never had a small tax evasion corp wardecced.
Part of this is playing smart but... the threat posed by suicide gankers is greatly overstated. They're looking for huge score from people who get stupid and haul massive quantities of PLEX or have obscenely expensive mission fits. Not to mess with the general people doing solo content. Groups like CODE live more on overstated reputations than actual deeds.
Of course I've lost plenty of ships in low sec / null / wormhole but that's a totally different case.
So why you played EVE, what was your goal, to grind solo?
Because he could, or wanted to, it's not your place to judge how they use their game time.
in my case grinding solo with 6 accounts was the most efficient way to earn ISK.
While doing so I could chat in fleet, corp, alliance or several private chats with players in the game.
There was voice chat, opportunities to buy or trade with others and of course muster up if someone came looking for a fight.
Heck, there were times I fought sleepers in wormholes with groups and fleets, or ran with incursion fleets which made more ISK per hour than solo which is of course why I ran them, but certainly not for the "fun" of grouping.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Asheron's call had a lot of people soloing together. They gave a percentage bonus if you were in a group, but it didn't matter how far you were apart so long as you were in the same dungeon.
There is no such thing as "forced" grouping in games. No one forces you to play a game. There are games which are group focussed and those that aren't. Don't like it's features ? Don't play it. Not even worth discussing it. Where does this habbit come from that every game must be developed around your preferences ?
Yeah EVE - a game where you could be attacked anywhere from another player, your containers could be looted, and even your most powerful and expensive ship could be destroyed from a fleet of cheap enemies, does not make you to play with other people? EVE is just a multiplayer game. Even when you are mining solo it is still multiplayer.
While WoW is a singleplayer game - quest after quest, till you are forced to do some raids.
I've been playing even in short spurts on and off since shortly after it became a thing so I'm pretty familiar with the concept.
In all that time I have never been suicide ganked while running missions, and the only attempt to suicide gank my mining ship failed, as have the attempted suicide ganks of my hauler. I've also never had a small tax evasion corp wardecced.
Part of this is playing smart but... the threat posed by suicide gankers is greatly overstated. They're looking for huge score from people who get stupid and haul massive quantities of PLEX or have obscenely expensive mission fits. Not to mess with the general people doing solo content. Groups like CODE live more on overstated reputations than actual deeds.
Of course I've lost plenty of ships in low sec / null / wormhole but that's a totally different case.
So why you played EVE, what was your goal, to grind solo?
Because he could, or wanted to, it's not your place to judge how they use their game time.
in my case grinding solo with 6 accounts was the most efficient way to earn ISK.
While doing so I could chat in fleet, corp, alliance or several private chats with players in the game.
There was voice chat, opportunities to buy or trade with others and of course muster up if someone came looking for a fight.
Heck, there were times I fought sleepers in wormholes with groups and fleets, or ran with incursion fleets which made more ISK per hour than solo which is of course why I ran them, but certainly not for the "fun" of grouping.
Umm I don't give a damn why you played a game or what did in it.. and I stand by what I said.. because they wanted to, and it's not your place to judge how someone else spends their game time.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
There is no such thing as "forced" grouping in games. No one forces you to play a game. There are games which are group focussed and those that aren't. Don't like it's features ? Don't play it. Not even worth discussing it. Where does this habbit come from that every game must be developed around your preferences ?
No, see, while no one is forced to play any game, Forced Grouping, is where if you want to play a game you need to group to do it.
A prime example of this is Trove, which group you with everyone around you, have no choice if you want to solo or not in this. If you go out and explore, if anyone else is around you, you will be grouped together.
MOBA's are forced grouping, you get put on the team, with no option to solo, and your victory or defeat is based on your teams performance. That is forced grouping.
Now, forced grouping is not the same as Teamwork or Working Together. It just means, you do not have the choice to solo this content.
And there are quite a few games out there, that do this.
And while it is a choice to play any game, some games do force you to group if you want to play them.
That is what Forced Grouping is.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Considering people soloed the every early games, what you are saying is just incorrect.
I know people soloed in Everquest. I soloed in Lineage 2, I've heard of people soloing in Asheron's call.
And I did not solo in L2, we made bosses, raid bosses, dungeons, wars, sieges - this is L2, but not the grind. I'm a lazy casual player, so my mates helped me to get armor, weapon, and to level up. A clan mate crafted my rare armor and weapon. And I helped to my clan mates too. For the Olympiad we shared items, including epics. As a small clan we bought them or took them by looting heroes and players from the big clans. We took a fortress. Even a castle. We lost it then. One clan mate sneaked in the middle of a siege and took alone another castle, while two big clans fought. We made alliances. Fought in battles with thousands of players involved. To grind solo in L2 was possible. To play solo was not possible.
ikcin, you are just so wrong.
First of all "yes" I did all that too. Had a clan been part of alliances, huge wars, was in one of the largest sieges (or maybe the largest, as the first rush crashed a lot of people) on the server.
But still people did "solely play solo" and play the game their way. EvilSeed was a perfect example as he was a notorious pk'er who was so red that he ended up turning white because he pk'ed so many players. The devs had to create a fix because they didn't take into account a player who would just keep pk'ing and only pk as part of his play.
No one is saying that a player can do everything solo. Meaning, take a castle or down a raid boss (but there are players in World of Warcraft who seem to down raid bosses solo so perhaps that's possible in some games).
But an mmorpg, originally, seems to have been a world and it's not beyond the pale for players to have gone their own way yet interact with others. Or not? who knows.
I even remember one player in Vanguard who told me that he never joined clans, just wanted to be a lone wolf.
In any case, if you want to continue the "mmorpg is an oxymoron" discussion then it should probably go in the solo vs group pinned thread as there are a lot of people there who continually argue both sides.
And in any event there are players who only play these games solo regardless of you thinking otherwise.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So happens my fave game of FFXI allows ALL options,the only difference being efficiently and speed.You can solo with the right class or duo or have a few friends or form a group or Alliance.
The thing about FFXI mobs is they feed on TP.Tactical points is built up via hits received and delivered.So the more players you have the more TP gain the mob gets and will use more powerful abilities more often.The game surprisingly is incredibly balanced,it works right across the board.
This is why i detest almost every other game design,the combat ALWAYS feels handcuffed.
Example a mob might be 8 levels higher,still really tough for a group however can still be soloed or duo'd.How many games do that,NONE,all those other games have crappy combat design. EVERY single game aside from FFXi "used to be" is based on your GEAR and NOT on the player.
So the real question should be "what is better player skill or GEAR scores?"
I can tell yo that gear scores means pretty much ANYONE can easily win the appropriate fight,but without gear not anyone can win a tough fight.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
All I want is a forced group grinder like early FFXI. Quests should be used for unlocking classes or getting a set of class defining armor.
SO I didnt try FFXI till many years after it launched...By the time I tried there was literally no one in the low zones and soloing for a player that had no clue what to do was not a good option..... Like we've said, forced grouping only works if there are alot of players at all levels and that just isnt the case in most games anymore....Alos the FFXI community was one of the most rude and unhelpful of any I had ever played in.
FFXI is extremely old and it had an active community for atleast 5-6 years. I think that's plenty of life from an mmorpg thanks to how fast tech and graphics seem to improve.
The people who play only solo in fact are missing the main content.
I think the people who only play "solo" are doing exactly what they want to be doing and probably don't think they are missing anything as they always have the choice to join in but instead choose to enjoy the game as they see fit.
Also, as I do come from the school of "mmorpg's as worlds" choosing how you want to play in the world, whether it's pking or growing a guild are ALL part of the experiences one can "choose" to take part in.
There are people who just want to craft after all, many of them on this forum. They would most likely be interacting with people in any number of ways but in the end it's a "solo" activity.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Having a MMO where 100% of the content can be done solo is not a great idea, then you could just make a singleplayer game instead which will do that far better.
You certainly need some solocontent but I think 50/50 would be a rather good ratio.
Comments
So they start throwing in everything but the kitchen sink.
Also, it seems that game developers need to think smaller if they are going to be successful. This is unfortunate as players have become spoiled and expect all games to look so polished and beautiful that it makes their heads spin. Developers aren't going to be able to make smaller games that cater to specific players if they have to make $100 million games each time.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
MMOs are not meant to be games that you play here and there. They are meant to be your primary games that you invest hours into every day. Guildies aren't always online and a lot of people strongly dislike PUGs. That, and sometimes people log in not wanting to do anything too exerting. They kind of want something to take their minds off a challenging day at work or school, and some highly challenging group content where their mistakes let down their whole team doesn't fit that bill. Solo content is vital because of this. "Go play a single player game if you want to solo" is narrow, ignorant, and genre harming approach.
As to repetitive grinding being the true cause of MMO failure. I say this for two reasons:
1. The vast majority of people I know who leave MMOs either directly cite grinding or cite a grinding related issue as their reason for leaving.
2. All of the most popular online games pushing the MMO industry out are games with little to no grinding. Straight up no grinding in the case of the three most successful (LoL, PUBG, and Minecraft.)
So like I said, you can have your opinion and disagree, but on the factual issue of what is causing the genre decline I believe their are people who correctly attribute it primarily to the grind, and people who are flat wrong.
Did I group with people? Sure, PVP of course, some mining fleets or even convoys, but rarely was any of it forced
As for grouping as in Vanilla WOW.....did you even 40 man raid bro?
Gaah, 4 to 5 hours a night, 4 to 5 days a week, mandatory. Weekends spent farming mats, faction rep or gear for the next raid.
Pally buffing everyone in two groups every 5 minutes......(rerolled as a Druid Healer on a new server to get away from it)
Got as far as getting ready to tackle the Twin Emps when BC released and killed my raiding guild while erasing my progression.
I was really pissed at the time, but looking back now, Blizzard did me a big favor.
So if thats what a return to hardcore grouping means, count me out.
Why am I not playing EVE again, hmm
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
EVE on the other hand relies entirely on ISK and tradeable items as the reward for pretty much every type of content. Good ISK can be made through both multiplayer and solo activities. So EVE is a shining example of a game where solo vs. small group vs. large group type content is 100% optional and the player can really do whatever they want at any given time and any level of play.
It's one of the many factors that I feel has contributed to EVE rising from a group of indie nobodies to be one of the most successful titles in the MMO industry over the long term. Very few other titles that existed in 2003 are still as popular as EVE. Especially ones made by previously unknown development teams.
Part of that is aging, but it's been well-documented that Blizzard hasn't achieved the same level of success with each expansion, even considering the aging of the game.
With that said, if the game focused on PvP, as does EVE, providing multiple avenues to accrue wealth and power makes sense. Not everyone will enter the game with a full guild to back them up. In a PvE game, there's not really direct competition between the players, so you can reserve pieces of content for more complex player endeavors.
In all that time I have never been suicide ganked while running missions, and the only attempt to suicide gank my mining ship failed, as have the attempted suicide ganks of my hauler. I've also never had a small tax evasion corp wardecced.
Part of this is playing smart but... the threat posed by suicide gankers is greatly overstated. They're looking for huge score from people who get stupid and haul massive quantities of PLEX or have obscenely expensive mission fits. Not to mess with the general people doing solo content. Groups like CODE live more on overstated reputations than actual deeds.
Of course I've lost plenty of ships in low sec / null / wormhole but that's a totally different case.
So if anyone is around you, you are grouped with them, regardless if you wanted to be or not.
So that is one kind of Forced Grouping.
I know people soloed in Everquest. I soloed in Lineage 2, I've heard of people soloing in Asheron's call.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Because MMOs are virtual worlds and in worlds there is both things to do alone and things to do with others. If I wanted to do nothing but run scripted content with a group over and over and over I would play Diablo.
While doing so I could chat in fleet, corp, alliance or several private chats with players in the game.
There was voice chat, opportunities to buy or trade with others and of course muster up if someone came looking for a fight.
Heck, there were times I fought sleepers in wormholes with groups and fleets, or ran with incursion fleets which made more ISK per hour than solo which is of course why I ran them, but certainly not for the "fun" of grouping.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A prime example of this is Trove, which group you with everyone around you, have no choice if you want to solo or not in this. If you go out and explore, if anyone else is around you, you will be grouped together.
MOBA's are forced grouping, you get put on the team, with no option to solo, and your victory or defeat is based on your teams performance. That is forced grouping.
Now, forced grouping is not the same as Teamwork or Working Together. It just means, you do not have the choice to solo this content.
And there are quite a few games out there, that do this.
And while it is a choice to play any game, some games do force you to group if you want to play them.
That is what Forced Grouping is.
First of all "yes" I did all that too. Had a clan been part of alliances, huge wars, was in one of the largest sieges (or maybe the largest, as the first rush crashed a lot of people) on the server.
But still people did "solely play solo" and play the game their way. EvilSeed was a perfect example as he was a notorious pk'er who was so red that he ended up turning white because he pk'ed so many players. The devs had to create a fix because they didn't take into account a player who would just keep pk'ing and only pk as part of his play.
No one is saying that a player can do everything solo. Meaning, take a castle or down a raid boss (but there are players in World of Warcraft who seem to down raid bosses solo so perhaps that's possible in some games).
But an mmorpg, originally, seems to have been a world and it's not beyond the pale for players to have gone their own way yet interact with others. Or not? who knows.
I even remember one player in Vanguard who told me that he never joined clans, just wanted to be a lone wolf.
In any case, if you want to continue the "mmorpg is an oxymoron" discussion then it should probably go in the solo vs group pinned thread as there are a lot of people there who continually argue both sides.
And in any event there are players who only play these games solo regardless of you thinking otherwise.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Who says it has to be either or?
So happens my fave game of FFXI allows ALL options,the only difference being efficiently and speed.You can solo with the right class or duo or have a few friends or form a group or Alliance.
The thing about FFXI mobs is they feed on TP.Tactical points is built up via hits received and delivered.So the more players you have the more TP gain the mob gets and will use more powerful abilities more often.The game surprisingly is incredibly balanced,it works right across the board.
This is why i detest almost every other game design,the combat ALWAYS feels handcuffed.
Example a mob might be 8 levels higher,still really tough for a group however can still be soloed or duo'd.How many games do that,NONE,all those other games have crappy combat design.
EVERY single game aside from FFXi "used to be" is based on your GEAR and NOT on the player.
So the real question should be "what is better player skill or GEAR scores?"
I can tell yo that gear scores means pretty much ANYONE can easily win the appropriate fight,but without gear not anyone can win a tough fight.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Also, as I do come from the school of "mmorpg's as worlds" choosing how you want to play in the world, whether it's pking or growing a guild are ALL part of the experiences one can "choose" to take part in.
There are people who just want to craft after all, many of them on this forum. They would most likely be interacting with people in any number of ways but in the end it's a "solo" activity.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You certainly need some solocontent but I think 50/50 would be a rather good ratio.