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An idea on equipment progression.
BlurBleh
Member UncommonPosts: 162
Equipment progression is an important feature in any MMORPG, it rewards players with a sense of accomplishment. For the most part, equipment progression comes in two ways. (1) Finding new equipment with better stats/appearance. (2) Value-adding existing equipment via some form of enhancement, the typical way being the +1/+2/+3... method, which progressively adds more attack/defense to the equipment piece. To me, these methods of equipment progression are problematic. In method (1), the old equipment pieces simply get replaced as the player progresses through the levels and finds better, rarer pieces. There is little value to the old pieces and usually they get sold or discarded. This method mostly applies to players in the leveling process, before reaching the end game. What happens is, at the end of the day, only equipment pieces from the end game will matter, and everything before will have very little value as more and more players get to the end game and no longer have any need for earlier equipment pieces. In method (2), it is a common feature in many MMORPGs and it mostly applies to the end game as players find their staple equipment pieces. This method is a way to take things a step future by adding more stats to those pieces of equipment. However, this method of progression is usually very RNG in nature as the enhancements tend to get progressively harder to succeed. It will usually become a huge gold and time sink for players as they will need to invest a lot to achieve the highest possible levels of enhancement. It also may bring out the issue of pay to win in which certain games may offer cash items that improve the odds of success or lessen the penalties of enhancement failures.
Of course, there are games that managed to circumvent these problems all together. GW2 is a good example in which there is no enhancement system of any sort whatsoever. A player would only need to obtain end game gears by crafting, questing, looting, trading, and then slap on a few runes and they're pretty much good to go. Though there is a certain beauty to the simplicity of things in GW2 in terms of equipment progression, to some players it may be a bit too shallow. Some players may want a somewhat difficult equipment progression system that rewards them for the hours they've put into the game.
Here's what came across my mind one day as I was gaming.
An "expertise" system for equipment pieces that applies to the specific piece the player is using. That is to say, players' expertise with their equipment will increase over time as they use those pieces for combat, unlocking various bonuses once their expertise levels reach certain thresholds. However, the bonus only applies to the specific pieces and to the specific player.
Here's an example.
Player A has fought many enemies using his Iron Sword, his expertise with the weapon has increased, unlocking a certain bonus stat. However, the bonus will only apply to that sword, and to Player A. It will not apply if Player A is using another sword, or when another player is using Player A's sword.
This is just the basic concept, it can be enriched in many ways. For instance, there can be many levels of expertise with any piece of equipment, every time when the threshold is reached, two sets of bonus stats will be randomly chosen from a pool of possible outcomes. Out of the two stats, one can be chosen by the player to be applied as an universal bonus stat, while the other will be an expertise-character-bound stat that nobody other than the player who unlocked it will benefit from.
Using the Iron Sword example again.
Player A reaches expertise rank 1 with his Iron Sword, two random stats bonuses appears, in this case, +5% attack and + 10% attack speed. He will then get the option to choose either bonus as the universal bonus, one that is bound to the sword and applied regardless of who is using it. And the other stat will become the expertise stat, a bonus that only Player A will enjoy. This will happen again as he reaches another threshold of his expertise with his Iron Sword, eventually getting a set of universal bonus stats, as well as a set of expertise only bonus stats.
Of course, the bonus stats will not be enjoyed by any other players but they can enjoy the universal stats that were chosen by Player A. This means, to any other player, Player A's Iron Sword will only have the set of universal bonus stats with no expertise stats at all. If Player B gets that item from A, he has to gain his own expertise levels with that weapon, and when the threshold is reached, he can choose whether to replace the universal bonus stat that Player A has put there.
To make things clear,
-Plain Iron Sword
(+10 attack, base stats)
To be continued
Of course, there are games that managed to circumvent these problems all together. GW2 is a good example in which there is no enhancement system of any sort whatsoever. A player would only need to obtain end game gears by crafting, questing, looting, trading, and then slap on a few runes and they're pretty much good to go. Though there is a certain beauty to the simplicity of things in GW2 in terms of equipment progression, to some players it may be a bit too shallow. Some players may want a somewhat difficult equipment progression system that rewards them for the hours they've put into the game.
Here's what came across my mind one day as I was gaming.
An "expertise" system for equipment pieces that applies to the specific piece the player is using. That is to say, players' expertise with their equipment will increase over time as they use those pieces for combat, unlocking various bonuses once their expertise levels reach certain thresholds. However, the bonus only applies to the specific pieces and to the specific player.
Here's an example.
Player A has fought many enemies using his Iron Sword, his expertise with the weapon has increased, unlocking a certain bonus stat. However, the bonus will only apply to that sword, and to Player A. It will not apply if Player A is using another sword, or when another player is using Player A's sword.
This is just the basic concept, it can be enriched in many ways. For instance, there can be many levels of expertise with any piece of equipment, every time when the threshold is reached, two sets of bonus stats will be randomly chosen from a pool of possible outcomes. Out of the two stats, one can be chosen by the player to be applied as an universal bonus stat, while the other will be an expertise-character-bound stat that nobody other than the player who unlocked it will benefit from.
Using the Iron Sword example again.
Player A reaches expertise rank 1 with his Iron Sword, two random stats bonuses appears, in this case, +5% attack and + 10% attack speed. He will then get the option to choose either bonus as the universal bonus, one that is bound to the sword and applied regardless of who is using it. And the other stat will become the expertise stat, a bonus that only Player A will enjoy. This will happen again as he reaches another threshold of his expertise with his Iron Sword, eventually getting a set of universal bonus stats, as well as a set of expertise only bonus stats.
Of course, the bonus stats will not be enjoyed by any other players but they can enjoy the universal stats that were chosen by Player A. This means, to any other player, Player A's Iron Sword will only have the set of universal bonus stats with no expertise stats at all. If Player B gets that item from A, he has to gain his own expertise levels with that weapon, and when the threshold is reached, he can choose whether to replace the universal bonus stat that Player A has put there.
To make things clear,
-Plain Iron Sword
(+10 attack, base stats)
-Player A's Iron Sword (with expertise rank 1)
(+10 attack, base stats)
(+5% atk spd, universal bonus stat)
(+10% atk, expertise stat only applied when A is using)
-Player B using A's Sword
(+10 attack, base stat)
(+5% atk spd, can be replaced when B unlocks expertise)
(a new set of expertise stat unlocked when B reaches the threshold) To be continued
Comments
Another way to add on to this concept is the cosmetics. The first player that gains expertise on a plain piece of equipment can have the option to customize the appearance of the piece in various ways, perhaps also giving it a name, as his expertise level increases with that piece of equipment. This option will not be available to other players that comes after. This way, if a player wants to have something unique to themselves in terms of appearance, they cannot simply buy a piece from another player, they will have to put in effort and level their expertise with that piece of equipment themselves.
I thought this can be a nice alternative to the traditional ways of equipment progression. But then again, this is just a random concept that came across my mind one day and I thought it would be nice to share here. I'm sure there are lots of problems with this concept and it needs to be further refined. Also since I have no background on game making, I don't know how feasible this is in terms of technical implementation of such a system. This post is quite wordy and I appreciate it if you've managed to read through all that. And I hope I've made everything clear since English isn't my first language.
For example in a older game (i forgot it name) you equip item base on level and stats
STR raise you meele ATK and help you to equip more heavy body armor and weapons (shield)
AGI raise ranger ATK and allow you you equip high level boots that raise moving speed .
INT raise magic ATK allow player to equip magic item like staves and high level accessories that raise the MP and mana recovery
So you can see that Warrior will mostly raise STR , they can equip high level armors and weapons but they have to use low level boots and accessories and boots because lack of AGI and INT
While AGI player have to use low level armor and low level accessories because lack of STR and INT
The INT player lack of STR and AGI so they have to use low level armor and low level boots
So basically with this system all gears have they value because player need them to cover that they lack .
I don't remember well because it's years but the system kind of work like this .
The idea you propose seems very similar to evolving gear in EQ1. Gear gains experience as the character does until it achieves a new 'form' with pre-defined stats. That was a moderately good system for 'exceptional' gear.
Sadly, anytime numbers are applied to gear, it falls to the developers to keep new gear from overwhelming older gear. To date, developers haven't been able to keep themselves in check, and newer items are always preferable to older gear.
I've always though the idea of original EQ1 was best, the only important stats were AC and Damage. All weapons had a damage value and a weapon speed, worn gear had armor. Only the rarest of items added any kind of stats, sort of a 'man is more important than his gear' type of thing.
I could see the 'experience with (Xw)' thing working as long as the developers kept the progression within strict guidelines. Maybe each level adds 0.1 to damage, or subtracts 0.1 from weapon speed. That way, the Iron Sword (base damage 8) wielder with 9 levels of experience would still not be as good as a Mithril Sword (base damage 10). If you want overlap between that 8 and 10 sword, maybe progress the 'Xw' at +0.1, +0.3, +0.6, +1.0, +1.5, +2.1, etc. (sum of the numbers / 10). That way a 6Xw Iron Sword could outperform a 0Xw MIthril Sword, but only in experienced hands.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I don't think there should be a hard cap, though - just make each successive expertise level take progressively longer to reach and yield a smaller bonus.
Also, what about instead of a completely random bonus roll on expertise level up, the weapon is given a bonus based on what you were using it for - if you used a lot of quick, weak strikes, you'd get an attack speed bonus, if you were attacking lots of heavily armoured opponents you'd get an armour penetration bonus, etc. (with the universal being, say, half that of the primary user's)
It is another sort of grind though.
Very good effort in writing all that and nicely written
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
What problem is your system trying to address?
How is it different from other systems?
What makes this system fun?
With such a large block of text and no real bullet points, thesis statement etc. to break it up and let me know what I'm about to read, it's hard to tell if it's something I'm interested in reading or not.
Now obviously this isn't 300 level writing but you still need to capture your audience. For instance look at the post in my signature. My post name lets you know the point I am trying to argue. My introduction explains it with greater clarity. My sections are headed with bolded titles that let you know what is about to be argued in each section, and my findings are summarized in the conclusion.
Not necessary for every post but when your post is 1275 words long, some kind of similar steps to make it more readable should be taken.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
1. That would lead to people switching between new unranked equipment for easier tasks so that they level it up, and old ranked equipment for optimal fighting power for harder tasks. People generally don't like to make that kind of choices, and they generally don't like to fight at anything less than 100% power just to get rewards later
2. Universal bonus would devalue new equipment gained through crafting and drops. Sure it's fun for you if your old junk is the most valuable weapon a newbie could get right now, but it's not fun for the newbie adventurer whose drops are less valuable and it's disastrous for the newbie crafter who must make that much more stuff to be sold to vendors instead of players
3. That system would discourage players from switching their equipment based on their situation and upcoming fights
While this statement may be true under specific conditions, I think it is a very situational statement, and not a general truth.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Now mind you, when I say long sword, it doesn't mean the one in your hand, it means the player when he uses a long sword. So if the long sword is destroyed by a fire breathing dragon, you still have all the abilities when you replace it with a different long sword.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Everyone runs around in gear that is good but not overly difficult to replace, and only brings out the best stuff when the stakes of the fight are high. For instance in battles that can result in your group gaining or losing territory.
OP I love your idea, Plus the chance to name my sword "Widow's Wail or Heart Eater" Like the great swordsman Joffery Barratheon from game of thrones sounds amazing
Aloha Mr Hand !
It's all pretty universal. People don't bring their best gear to every single fight. They bring it to fights where the stakes are high.
Yes i understand it's fun to THINK or feel like you are getting some cool new piece of gear but your combat remains the same no matter what,the devs allow you to do only what they want you to do.
So this has been implemented to lock content behind that gear again making you think you are accomplishing something.
You know what you accomplish,instead of dealing 10 dmg and taking 7 dmg you now just multiply those numbers for both at each tier.Idk seems a lot of people think it is fun to be wearing a piece of gear with bigger numbers but again just nullified by your current level of content.
Why does this system appear to work and still used,well look at any game now a days,people are intrigued by gaining levels,ranks they put more importance on numbers than fun or the quality of the game.
The best fun is to give abilities or if you must via gear then do something unrealistic but acceptable and that is to unlock abilities behind the gear but doesn't NEED to be done it just gives those people something to strive for.Tons of ways to unlock gear and abilities simply look at FFXI for anything related to rpg gaming done above all other games.
Simple question,you rather have gear that says +10 or an ability that allows you to AOE sleep for 30 secs,or an ability to flee for 15 secs or to hide for 5 seconds,i pick the abilities over the meaningless numbers EVERYTIME.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Although, not an MMO, I believe Terraria Otherworld is planning to have gear that levels up based on use, much like you described. Might be worth checking out when it launches eventually.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Every single MMO feel like a monty haul campaign in Pathfinder, no matter if you loot the gear itself or loot improvements for current gear.
In all years of playing the P&P game Shadowrun I really only upgraded a single piece of gear, a Katana weapon focus I spent a long time piecing together. My characters becomes better there, not my equipment.
I think no matter what system we use for gear we need to put far less focus on it and more on character improvements instead.
Realistically is there certainly an advantage to have a master crafted sword instead of an old rusty one but even there it isn't a certainty that if a swordmaster wields a great blade he will defeat another master wielding an average one.
Now, MMOs is not really realistic so that likeness is somewhat short but the time I keep a piece of gear (besides the top tiered one) have gone down a lot since the early games, so much in fact that I don't really get a kick out of finding a good upgrade anymore.
In games like M59 or EQ I kept the same piece of good gear for days, sometimes weeks while leveling. Today it is a couple of hours at best and frankly does it makes things less fun for me, the upgrades feels less important, they will soon be replaced anyways so why bother running a dungeon for one when it will be useless soon anyways?
In short: I think gear will have to matter less in the game to matter more to us players.
Dividing it down into increments is ok with me,so you have to first be proficient with a TYPE of weapon then that unlocks the ability to use that weapon and become more killed with it.
I like anything with skills,that way if you are a sponge just sitting in a group letting them do all the work while you just piggy back,your skills will be very weak.
Weak skills means you do less damage,miss more often,less defensive skills,well you take more damage and avoid less often.
Level 10 and never used any magic spells,well you'll first of all be checked for skill level and fizzle often then if your skill is too far below the enemy you'll fizzle almost every time.
Perhaps harvesting can aid in this structure,heavy handed skills like mining or chopping wood build strength and therefore can carry heavier loads,nimble stuff like picking roots/flowers/harvesting carrots whatever improves your dexterity skills.
A developer can do a lot with skills,unlike playing games where you must choose to use a few skills on a hotbar that gets boring by level 20.
On the topic of gear,instead of ALWAYS about stats,there should be variables in the combat system.Example an UBER super duper Axe of Fire wielding would be near useless against water creatures etc etc.Point being that JUST looking at stats should not be the end all,TYPE of damage type of resistances etc etc.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.