Cartography

1AD7 · April 2018

As always, I would like to welcome any of the users here to sign up for a free account at fantheonmmo.com -- this site was started last year with the hope of giving folks that haven't pledged to the game an option to get involved with the community and join in on some of the theory crafting discussions that take place. Also, it's using the IPBoard platform which is what the official Pantheon website will be upgraded to in the near ("soon") future. I wanted to share a post today regarding a potential cartography system and how it could work in an MMO. I understand that some folks are vehemently against maps and that's okay -- my stance on this topic is that I can live with or without maps, but if they do ever end up being a thing in Pantheon my hope is that they will be something that is largely player driven. Here is a link to a thread with better formatting if anybody would like to share any feedback: http://www.fantheonmmo.com/topic/94-cartography/

Cartography has been discussed for years within the Pantheon community. I would venture to say that the majority of players don't want to see the traditional "Press M and a fully drawn out map opens up" kind of experience. Furthermore, GPS indicators are basically viewed as the plague. When you combine both of them, a lot of players end up opening their maps and focusing on a little dot that represents their character in the world while they travel or adventure, and will do this for extended periods of time. Doing so takes away from the beauty, luster, and sense of exploration from the world itself and causes serious issues with the "It's about the journey, not the destination" argument. I think a fog of war mechanic could be really beneficial for both map-makers, and map-users. If a cartographer wants to create a map, they must be physically present in the area they are trying to record. For players that purchase maps, they would start off as a basic shell -- only after exploring an area will the fog of war dissipate and finer details start to emerge on the parchment.

There is plenty of merit in the idea that having the ability to create player-made maps would be good for immersion, social interaction, commerce, and achievement. Cartography would be a great crafting profession for explorer types as it would allow them to enjoy a sense of progression that is tied into their preferred playstyle. After doing some research on the Bartle Study ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types ) it would seem to me that cartography could be enjoyable for most player types. Explorers seem like the natural fit, but as an Achiever, I must admit that a feature like this would be really appealing to me as well. Socializers could also benefit from a variety of cartography-induced scenarios. Whether it's assisting another player who is making a map or trying to communicate an interpretation of a map in their possession to friends, there are ample opportunities for social interaction. Due to the nature of how player-made maps could work, bartering would also be commonplace.

I would like to propose a rough outline of how this feature could work. Feel free to respond with any observations/comments/feedback.

Map Types:

Interior: Interior maps would be used for large structures (Castles, Cathedrals, Temples, etc), Caves, Crypts, Tunnels, etc.
Exterior: Exterior maps would be used for zones. These would basically offer a birds eye view of any exterior zone. Markers could be used to notate a POI that might require it's own interior map.
Bundle: Advanced cartographers could create magical maps that transition from exterior to interior when you cross coordinate thresholds. (These are much more difficult to make.)

Map Resources:

Ink (Drops from NPC's but requires refining from an alchemist before it can be scribed to parchment)

Black Ink would be used to create the outline (outer shell pre-fog of war) for exterior zones.
Blue Ink would be used to shade in tundras, glaciers, or bodies of water that you can swim in. (Can use multiple shades)
Green Ink would be used to notate forests, grass, gardens, crop fields. (Can use multiple shades)
Brown ink would be used to identify soil, swamps (can't swim in these), sand, rock. (Can use multiple shades)
Grey Ink would be used to identify mountains, walls, structures.
Red Ink would be used to describe custom markers (Emblems) as determined by the cartographer. (Can scribe text onto parchment and create textual references for NPC's, POI's or Perception Triggers)

Emblems (Emblems would be a "skill" for cartographers, perhaps they can only utilize so many per day based on their skill level, method of skill ups TBD)

Stars would be used to notate a POI.
Exclamation points would be used to notate an NPC.
Question marks would be used to notate a possible perception trigger.
Additional Shapes (Waves, Mountain Caps, Trees, tents, keeps, campfires, signposts, steins (taverns!), etc)

Parchment (If ink fades, you can return to your cartographer for recoloring)

Crude Paper would deteriorate after 30 days. Only black/green/brown/blue inks are compatible.
Standard Paper would deteriorate after 60 days. Only black/green/brown/blue inks are compatible.
Crude Parchment would deteriorate after 90 days. All inks are compatible, but red/grey inks will fade. (Weather can expedite fading)
Standard Parchment would deteriorate after 120 days. All inks are compatible, but red/grey inks will fade. (Weather can expedite fading)
Vellum would be permanent. All inks are compatible, but red/grey inks will fade. (Weather can expedite fading)
Uterine Vellum would be permanent. All inks are compatible, and will never fade.

Codex (These would be rare drops from the world loot table and players are free to affix them to their maps as they see fit)

Basic codex would slow down deterioration and any ink fading by 25%
Quality codex would slow down deterioration and any ink fading by 50%
High Quality codex would eliminate deterioration and slow down any fading by 75%

Amathe · April 2018

I can see a lot of good thought went into this post. But the topic of maps has been an historic lightening rod issue here and elsewhere. While I like many of your ideas, I think asking for any kind of map may be a lost cause.

1AD7 · April 2018

@Amathe Fair enough. To be honest I am fine with or without maps. I just know it's something that a decent chunk of players will want to see, in any MMO. It's been stated by VR that cartography may be considered in the future so this post was mostly designed to get a discussion going on how the system could play out if it ultimately does get adopted.

Mendel · April 2018

Many of the maps available in EQ1 were made with out-of-game tools that read the zone files and created a map version. Some challenges for the Pantheon team:

Ensuring a player is on-site to make the map, and isn't a file-reader.
Allowing for a cartography skill and some degree of 'error' from both creator and reader.
Colored inks relating to map colors. What happens when a maker runs out of blue?
Fixed ink colors matching terrain types and distinguishing terrain from lines.

Additionally, the idea of fog-of-war works well in games with top-down views. How well will this work with view more typical to an MMORPG will create problems. For instance, the beautiful artwork of a mountain that serves as a zone barrier. How close do you need to get to the mountain in order to remove the fog-of-war and see the horizon? Will this operate differently from the draw distance? And will this fog-of-war be 3-dimensional or 2-dimensional? Some of the vistas that have already appeared in Pantheon involve looking way, way, way down on another part of zone. Will that be obscured by height?

My preference would be pre-drawn maps that exist as in-game objects. This way, the developers could control the artwork for all maps. There's no real need for me to be able to draw my own maps. I'd rather collect maps (and map fragments) from the game. I've made maps in real life. There's not much appeal to make more. So, I'd rather map-making NOT be a player driven activity.

So, I would vote, Yes to maps, but no to player-created maps. But that's not an option in another badly created poll.

1AD7 · April 2018

Mendel said:

Many of the maps available in EQ1 were made with out-of-game tools that read the zone files and created a map version. Some challenges for the Pantheon team:
Ensuring a player is on-site to make the map, and isn't a file-reader.
Allowing for a cartography skill and some degree of 'error' from both creator and reader.
Colored inks relating to map colors. What happens when a maker runs out of blue?
Fixed ink colors matching terrain types and distinguishing terrain from lines.
Additionally, the idea of fog-of-war works well in games with top-down views. How well will this work with view more typical to an MMORPG will create problems. For instance, the beautiful artwork of a mountain that serves as a zone barrier. How close do you need to get to the mountain in order to remove the fog-of-war and see the horizon? Will this operate differently from the draw distance? And will this fog-of-war be 3-dimensional or 2-dimensional? Some of the vistas that have already appeared in Pantheon involve looking way, way, way down on another part of zone. Will that be obscured by height?

My preference would be pre-drawn maps that exist as in-game objects. This way, the developers could control the artwork for all maps. There's no real need for me to be able to draw my own maps. I'd rather collect maps (and map fragments) from the game. I've made maps in real life. There's not much appeal to make more. So, I'd rather map-making NOT be a player driven activity.

So, I would vote, Yes to maps, but no to player-created maps. But that's not an option in another badly created poll.

What's wrong with the first two options? Sorry the poll wasn't up to your standards. Also, just to be clear, the cartography system as explained here was nothing more than speculation. VR has never provided an inkling of a detail on how the system would actually work if it ends up being something they pursue.

Mendel · April 2018

1AD7 said:

Mendel said:

Many of the maps available in EQ1 were made with out-of-game tools that read the zone files and created a map version. Some challenges for the Pantheon team:
Ensuring a player is on-site to make the map, and isn't a file-reader.
Allowing for a cartography skill and some degree of 'error' from both creator and reader.
Colored inks relating to map colors. What happens when a maker runs out of blue?
Fixed ink colors matching terrain types and distinguishing terrain from lines.
Additionally, the idea of fog-of-war works well in games with top-down views. How well will this work with view more typical to an MMORPG will create problems. For instance, the beautiful artwork of a mountain that serves as a zone barrier. How close do you need to get to the mountain in order to remove the fog-of-war and see the horizon? Will this operate differently from the draw distance? And will this fog-of-war be 3-dimensional or 2-dimensional? Some of the vistas that have already appeared in Pantheon involve looking way, way, way down on another part of zone. Will that be obscured by height?

My preference would be pre-drawn maps that exist as in-game objects. This way, the developers could control the artwork for all maps. There's no real need for me to be able to draw my own maps. I'd rather collect maps (and map fragments) from the game. I've made maps in real life. There's not much appeal to make more. So, I'd rather map-making NOT be a player driven activity.

So, I would vote, Yes to maps, but no to player-created maps. But that's not an option in another badly created poll.

What's wrong with the first two options? Sorry the poll wasn't up to your standards. Also, just to be clear, the cartography system as explained here was nothing more than speculation. VR has never provided an inkling of a detail on how the system would actually work if it ends up being something they pursue.

The poll presents three distinct questions.

Maps - yes/no/undecided.
GPS - yes/no/undecided.
Player crafted - yes/no/undecided.

Anytime a poll attempts to combine multiple questions, it faces special difficulties in order to make a clean poll and receive clear, statistically valid answers. Neither answers 1 nor 2 seemed to match my opinion. The entire poll (and proposed system) seems to neglect the one issue most people have with maps, a mini-map. (For the record, Maps - yes, GPS - undecided, Player crafted - no, mini-map - undecided)

If you offer up an idea as speculation, you should be prepared for alternate opinions and viewpoints.

1AD7 · April 2018

@Mendel ; -- I am "prepared" for alternate opinions and you're free to voice them, but I think it's reasonable to propose a poll with limited choices because it sets the expectation that only 4 options would be considered in the first place. I'm not a professional poll maker but creating a poll with 9 choices seems to be less than ideal. The map proposed ONE question, not three. From what I gathered in your response, you said that "So, I would vote, Yes to maps, but no to player-created maps. But that's not an option in another badly created poll." So why not just vote for the first or second answer because both of those seem to satisfy your interest? I think you have a poor attitude and failed to comprehend how the process of elimination between the different answers creates a pretty clear way to give the answer you said you were aiming for. Anyway, thanks for the feedback. The poll was a multiple choice answer. Pick what works best or post specific feedback ... but don't whine about how there weren't 9 different combinations of answers to satisfy every possible scenario you can think of (for a 3 part question instead of a single question that was actually asked), or how mini-maps weren't also factored in. Mini-maps are generally tied into GPS ... and if you read the entire post, you would see that GPS would not be included as an option in the proposed cartography model. If that model isn't good enough for you, please share something of your own.

Wellspring · April 2018

What's the current official plan for maps in Pantheon? That's all I care about. Not the theory crafting.

1AD7 · April 2018

The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

Here is a quote from Kilsin:

"Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.

If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."

You can read into that several different ways. My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map. It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.

kruler · April 2018

1AD7 said:

The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

Here is a quote from Kilsin:

"Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."

SO after this post its clear nothing is actually decided and the whole issue of maps is low priority and a bit pie in the sky, glad the poll and post cleared all that up and made a huge difference to what really happens in the games making, golf claps all round.

Zindaihas · April 2018

In-game auto-mapping for each player from the very start is an immersion killer. It becomes a crutch and eliminates a vital sense of danger in an unknown world. One of the reasons we play fantasy MMOs is for the adventure. We are intentionally placing our character in jeopardy because it creates a sense of excitement and accomplishment when we are able to overcome the challenges the world throws at us. Why would you want to "nerf" the world by giving players a free tool to essentially bypass those challenges?

If you want to add some kind of mapping feature into an MMO, at least make it something that has to be earned and restrict it to a few select classes (Rangers and possibly druids are the natural choices); and integrate into the game in stages as the character progresses. Making it class restrictive makes that particular class more valuable to a group as well.

Just one man's opinion.

Gyva02 · April 2018

Zindaihas said:

One of the reasons we play fantasy MMOs is for the adventure. We are intentionally placing our character in jeopardy because it creates a sense of excitement and accomplishment when we are able to overcome the challenges the world throws at us. Why would you want to "nerf" the world by giving players a free tool to essentially bypass those challenges?

Sadly for most MMORPG players nowadays its not an adventure for them. Its a checklist of things to do and complete and they want anything that allows them to complete that checklist quicker.

1AD7 · April 2018

The plan for maps is discussed a bit more during the last stream.

delete5230 · April 2018

I'll be going to a local dollar store and buy large poster boards and markers.
And sit their like a little kid and make my own.

I used to do this for deep dungeons, because using external web sites "as I'm playing" never cut it for me. However, I'll have to wait and see how hard it is to navigate in an open world first.

I'm actually excited to do this (if needed)

Scot · April 2018

I love the idea and I have played a MMO (can't remember which) where map segments were sketched in as you moved to a new area, the crafting would bring a new level to that.

But all the indie games are coming in on a tight budget, a system like the OP mentioned would be an additional cost. I have no idea if that could be absorbed, one thing you get with a no map system is time and money to do some coding elsewhere. The OPs idea would cost more than the traditional map to implement.

Also Mendel came up with some genuine issues, I think the OP needs to get past the side issue of the poll and calm down.

svann · April 2018

Have to level up a rogue mapmaker.

MadFrenchie · April 2018

1AD7 said:

The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

Here is a quote from Kilsin:

"Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."

You can read into that several different ways. My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map. It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.

In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.

Sovrath · April 2018

MadFrenchie said:

1AD7 said:

The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

Here is a quote from Kilsin:

"Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."

You can read into that several different ways. My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map. It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.

In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.

I didn't realize they weren't including maps. Personally I think that's awesome. Truly!

However, if what you are suggesting is that they include an in-game tool where people can make maps (maybe sell them?) I'd be all for that. In any case "I voted" for the obvious choice given that bit.

MadFrenchie · April 2018

Sovrath said:

MadFrenchie said:

1AD7 said:

The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

Here is a quote from Kilsin:

"Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."

You can read into that several different ways. My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map. It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.

In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.

I didn't realize they weren't including maps. Personally I think that's awesome. Truly!

However, if what you are suggesting is that they include an in-game tool where people can make maps (maybe sell them?) I'd be all for that. In any case "I voted" for the obvious choice given that bit.

I can get behind not having a magical map every player gets. (But a mage cartographer creating a magical map??? Yes please!)

I just think that addressing it in no way whatsoever will only lead to 3rd party mods or sites that provide it and are widely used. I think that would be a missed opportunity in this day. But Prima would probably appreciate it!

Kajidourden · April 2018

I don't see the point. All it's going to do is create a situation like FFXI where people just Tab out to a map on a third party website.

The skill itself will be worthless because people will make maps online with or without the use of this skill and then bam, no more demand.

It would be a massive waste of time, money, and effort on VR's part.

Kajidourden · April 2018

Sovrath said:

MadFrenchie said:

1AD7 said:

The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

Here is a quote from Kilsin:

"Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."

You can read into that several different ways. My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map. It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.

In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.

I didn't realize they weren't including maps. Personally I think that's awesome. Truly!

However, if what you are suggesting is that they include an in-game tool where people can make maps (maybe sell them?) I'd be all for that. In any case "I voted" for the obvious choice given that bit.

Except nobody will bother. Within a week every zone will be mapped on a third party website and nobody will use that system.

1AD7 · April 2018

@Kajidourden ; -- I think you are making broad assumptions. Don't get me wrong, I think the biggest challenge for making something like this work is providing a value to the in-game maps that can't be observed by window tabbing. I think it's important to remember that a lot of people don't want to window tab. Immersion is a thing that plenty of people care about. If the maps can be customized, where players can jot down notes for a camp or whatever else they want, such as naming their POI's, I think there would still be plenty of demand for something like this. It's certainly not going to appeal to everybody but I guarantee there are people who would prefer to use an in-game map. Not only that, but I personally feel that it would be fun just to make the maps themselves. The way cartography could tie into adventuring is the exact kind of crafting profession I would have an interest in. If people are saying that they have an interest in something like this I think it's a little odd that you are willing to write it off as something nobody would use when some folks are stating the exact opposite. Again, I would participate in the system just for the fun of making maps in-game, myself. That would be really fun to me. I am also highly confident that there would be an in-game market for this kind of service and that I would be making bank from selling maps.

Scot · April 2018

I don't want to be tiresome but could we have some paragraphs, you are making some good points but they are hard to digest as a block.

Scot · April 2018

As an explorer type who just loves nosing around places he has not been to this might make me actually interested in crafting, something that usually makes me yawn.

Kajidourden said:

Sovrath said:

MadFrenchie said:

1AD7 said:

The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

Here is a quote from Kilsin:

"Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."

You can read into that several different ways. My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map. It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.

In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.

I didn't realize they weren't including maps. Personally I think that's awesome. Truly!

However, if what you are suggesting is that they include an in-game tool where people can make maps (maybe sell them?) I'd be all for that. In any case "I voted" for the obvious choice given that bit.

Except nobody will bother. Within a week every zone will be mapped on a third party website and nobody will use that system.

That's why you would need all teleportation, boat rides, flying transport whatever to require you to have discovered the map. You can do other things as well like give some sort of bonus for having a map, just like crafting and wearing an item gives one.

Mendel · April 2018

Kajidourden said:

I don't see the point. All it's going to do is create a situation like FFXI where people just Tab out to a map on a third party website.

The skill itself will be worthless because people will make maps online with or without the use of this skill and then bam, no more demand.

It would be a massive waste of time, money, and effort on VR's part.

I don't know that it would be a waste of time, specifically. An official map with a map (M) function goes a long way to make a game feel complete.

Kajidourden said:

Sovrath said:

MadFrenchie said:

1AD7 said:

The current plan is that there will be an atlas and that cartography might be considered if certain funding goals are met and there is enough demand for it from the community ... hence why we're theory crafting on how it could play out to gauge interest for a system that has a little substance to it.

Here is a quote from Kilsin:

"Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map."

You can read into that several different ways. My interpretation is that maps will never be freely "included" ... meaning you can't just press M and have free access to a map. It's possible that maps "might" be added in the future but that they would most likely be gated behind a system like cartography, and it ultimately depends on what kind of feedback is observed during testing.

In this day, not including any maps is merely shoveling work to your community, because they will make them, they will use them, and it will end up being a requirement for most folks when they load a game to have the map site in the background.

Much better to simply create those as a dev with a system that's fun for folks to participate in, such as cartography.

I didn't realize they weren't including maps. Personally I think that's awesome. Truly!

However, if what you are suggesting is that they include an in-game tool where people can make maps (maybe sell them?) I'd be all for that. In any case "I voted" for the obvious choice given that bit.

Except nobody will bother. Within a week every zone will be mapped on a third party website and nobody will use that system.

Your point here seems much more applicable. As soon as zone files are downloaded to the client, someone will be building a map with some file interpreting software. That's likely to happen as soon as the zone files are finalized, maybe in the current pre-alpha phase, but surely by the beta testing phase. Spoiler sites, including maps, are going to be with us for awhile.

Kajidourden · April 2018

1AD7 said:

@Kajidourden ; -- I think you are making broad assumptions. Don't get me wrong, I think the biggest challenge for making something like this work is providing a value to the in-game maps that can't be observed by window tabbing. I think it's important to remember that a lot of people don't want to window tab. Immersion is a thing that plenty of people care about. If the maps can be customized, where players can jot down notes for a camp or whatever else they want, such as naming their POI's, I think there would still be plenty of demand for something like this. It's certainly not going to appeal to everybody but I guarantee there are people who would prefer to use an in-game map. Not only that, but I personally feel that it would be fun just to make the maps themselves. The way cartography could tie into adventuring is the exact kind of crafting profession I would have an interest in. If people are saying that they have an interest in something like this I think it's a little odd that you are willing to write it off as something nobody would use when some folks are stating the exact opposite. Again, I would participate in the system just for the fun of making maps in-game, myself. That would be really fun to me. I am also highly confident that there would be an in-game market for this kind of service and that I would be making bank from selling maps.

Yeah...I've played enough older MMOs to know that's a load of bull. Once maps are available they will be used.

In fact just like in older games when you can't figure out where the camp is or how to get there the first question will be "Why don't you just look it up"? And you will be seen as a burden for not doing the bare minimum to avoid wasting other people's time.

Much like strategies for dungeons, raids, etc.

No matter how oldschool we make a game it will never be the same experience, times have changed and access to information is more widespread than ever. So too are the expectations of people to know what they're doing, at least to some extent.

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