That's precisely what the chart demonstrates though. The reason they are highest in the chart compared to other games is a reflection of how happy they are to downvote, it's not an indication of how many trolls target Star Citizen otherwise you'd hear all the other communities crying the same.
Games like dota and lol are quite often referred to as having toxic playerbases so we can expect the subredit to mirror that. Gamergate, soccer and politics are all very divisive topics so we can expect downvotes to be used as a way to silence opposing opinions.
You don't know what you talk about.
1) The chart mentions not the subs with most downvotes, YET the subs that had the top most downvoted threads of Reddit in that year.
^ With that logic and as I mentioned this was 2015 data it's pretty obvious why once we're aware of the massive epic dramas, the rise of DS and the Goons, the threads that statistic englobes are most certainly DS blogs, propaganda by goons, articles like the escapists one, and things like that.
2) As a matter of fact, in the current reality of the sub, the majority of the downvoted threads are actually question threads, there is a sticky thread for it so it's quite easy to notice most of the downvoted threads in the sub are actually questions submitted outside of it.
3) Downvote bots, even threads that end up on the top of the sub, face heavy downvotes at the start, it's something unaware people often ask why are they being downvoted.
4) A HUGE number of trolls, I have never seen other game sub that have been so attacked and intentionally provoked by trolls than the SC one, then go figure why people ended up taking a defensive stand, in fact the standard of the SC sub became looking at the post history to know if they are talking with something who is there to discuss something, or with a troll/hater just trying to start a fire.
5) The toxic part of the community who is intentionally aggressive does not represent the generality of it, that does decide to stay out of it.
6) The Obvious: On Reddit, if your opinion is the unpopular opinion, you're going to be downvoted, no matter where, it's just how it works, and why many people consider the ability to downvote of being toxic.
Using this as any proof is petty and just part of that desperate need for haters to continue mudslinging at SC, its developers, and its community. Using hyperbole to
1) The chart mentions not the subs with most downvotes, YET the subs that had the top most downvoted threads of Reddit in that year.
^ With that logic and as I mentioned this was 2015 data it's pretty obvious why once we're aware of the massive epic dramas, the rise of DS and the Goons, the threads that statistic englobes are most certainly DS blogs, propaganda by goons, articles like the escapists one, and things like that.
2015 + 2016, not 2015 alone. This was also the time where /r/ds had splintered off, so threads about ds were automodded. Yes there was drama, there's always drama with SC, but you cannot unequivacobly say it all rests on the goons, ds or whatever other boogeymen you want to pull out of your backside.
2) As a matter of fact, in the current reality of the sub, the majority of the downvoted threads are actually question threads, there is a sticky thread for it so it's quite easy to notice most of the downvoted threads in the sub are actually questions submitted outside of it.
Again, opinion. This is not a fact. There are also lots of downvoting over things like criticism, ie people criticising the framerate, the game's performance, time taken for development, lack of 3.0 etc. All valid complaints that get nuked because it paints things in a bad light.
3) Downvote bots, even threads that end up on the top of the sub, face heavy downvotes at the start, it's something unaware people often ask why are they being downvoted.
Downvote bots are more rumour than reality, I'm sure they do exist and people are stupid enough to employ them but it's still not enough to catapult a niche game above things like dota or lol. This test from 2 years ago where a user tries to detect bot activity does not really reach any definite conclusion https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4622un/test_post_detecting_auto_downvote_bots/
4) A HUGE number of trolls, I have never seen other game sub that have been so attacked and intentionally provoked by trolls than the SC one, then go figure why people ended up taking a defensive stand, in fact the standard of the SC sub became looking at the post history to know if they are talking with something who is there to discuss something, or with a troll/hater just trying to start a fire.
That feels like confirmation bias. Yes there are trolls but a huge number and more than any other game in existence? I doubt that. The community at /r/sc love to crow about their RES tools and how they label opinions they don't like as trolls, which encourages other faithful members to do the same, all in all a very unforgiving attitude to take.
5) The toxic part of the community who is intentionally aggressive does not represent the generality of it, that does decide to stay out of it.
No one claims that it does. However the toxic part is also the most vocal, bullying part. They're the one's who leap on any perceived criticism or misunderstanding with knives drawn from the off. They give the game and it's better community a bad name, there's no escaping that.
6) The Obvious: On Reddit, if your opinion is the unpopular opinion, you're going to be downvoted, no matter where, it's just how it works, and why many people consider the ability to downvote of being toxic.
As I mentioned above and in my other post, there is a disproportionate amount of downvoting, especially when you take into account number of subscribers and amount of traffic for each of these subs, for somehere as small as r/sc to feature so high in the list should make people ask what is going on...
It's a legtimate concern but this thread is a prime example of how certain people behave, alleging that it's being used as a weaponised attack on the game, as a method for trolling etc.
/r/leagueoflegends has almost 10x the amount of subscribers and despite it being widely perceived as quite toxic it is outdone by a tiny niche community. That just strikes me as out of whack, fans ought to be thinking thats not what we want, we want to be inclusive yadda yadda but instead, as evidenced here, it gets treated as though it's an attack and the excuses and delection starts.
Using this as any proof is petty and just part of that desperate need for haters to continue mudslinging at SC, its developers, and its community. Things that obviously happen yet shouldn't be weaponized to continue to lay attacks against a community only helps polarizing and contributing to the very thing you complain about.
It shouldn't be ignored either. Conflicting opinions are bound to happen, that doesn't mean we should start slapping the troll label on everyone we disagree with or acting as though they are all out to get us. It's that kind of thinking that has contributed to the sub is featuring so high in that chart.
Ambition is all well and good, but if left unchecked can undermine completion, such that the only thing ever created is an ongoing stream of never quite realized potentials.
At some point Roberts will have to reign his ambition in long enough for Star Citizen to reach a point of commercial release or it will simply never get there.
2015 + 2016, not 2015 alone. This was also the time where /r/ds had splintered off, so threads about ds were automodded. Yes there was drama, there's alsways drama with SC, but you cannot unequivacobly say it all rests on the goons, ds or whatever boogeyman you want to pull out of your ass.
From Summer 2015 was exactly when the "dormant DS has awaken" and the whole mess started, not pulling out of my ass it's true, if you think several of the most downvoted threads of reddit were people criticizing and sharing concerns on SC, and not the DS drama-llama blog posts and so, then you need to drop the tainted glasses for a bit and think about it for sec.
Again, opinion. This is not a fact. There are also lots of downvoting over things like criticism, ie people criticising the framerate, the game's performance, time taken for development, lack of 3.0 etc. All valid complaints that get nuked because it paints things in a bad light.
Not really, I tend to lurk the sub and I see the trend, what I don't see is this evil demoniac community you continue to talk about that oppresses every criticism, in fact the sub has constantly put walls of criticism trending for CIG to see, such as recently, hammering CIG about the missing SQ42 Roadmap they had said was coming long ago.
It's not everyone else's fault that you are the unpopular opinion and to be perfectly honest I would say if you go there or several other game communities I have been with the same tone and narrative you do here, you would be labeled as a troll and a hater, just calling it as I see it.
Downvote bots are more rumour than reality, I'm sure they do exist and people are stupid enough to employ them but it's still not enough to catapult a niche game above things like dota or lol. This test from 2 years ago where a user tries to detect bot activity does not really reach any definite conclusion
Either bot or not, it's something that happens and it's frequent to see people asking what's up with the downvotes, this in threads that are trending in the top of the sub, if this is still users of the sub trying to oppress certain topics, it sure ain't working that well for them.
That feels like confirmation bias. Yes there are trolls but a huge number and more than any other game in existence? I doubt that. The community at /r/sc love to crow about their RES tools and how they label opinions they don't like as trolls, which encourages other faithful members to do the same, all in all a very unforgiving attitude to take.
Doesn't feel like confirmation bias to me, I have never a community that was targetted by trolls as much as SC did, having people who just went and still go there just to start fires makes it so it's quite easy either by scapegoats or being caught in the middle of it, to get attacked by touching topics that became extremely toxic, I thank the trolls for that one.
/r/leagueoflegends has almost 10x the amount of subscribers and despite it being widely perceived as quite toxic it is outdone by a tiny niche community. That just strikes me as out of whack, fans ought to be thinking thats not what we want, we want to be inclusive yadda yadda but instead, as evidenced here, it gets treated as though it's an attack and the excuses and delection starts.
This only proves my point, that the threads that were included on that statistic were NOT normal people sharing criticism or concerns on SC; yet related to the huge dramas of 2015, I would place any bets those most downvoted threads are surely things like the DS blogs, and even submissions in the sub (before he got banned from it), as well other things of similar nature.
Nothing else would have be capable to reach those numbers for a much smaller sub. And you know this, it's pretty obvious, unless the community is toxic because we downvoted DS BS from when it was being constantly spammed on it (thanks goons!).
It shouldn't be ignored either. Conflicting opinions are bound to happen, that doesn't mean we should start slapping the troll label on everyone we disagree with or acting as though they are all out to get us. It's that kind of thinking that has contributed to the sub is featuring so high in that chart.
Yes it should be ignored because it is not the reason that contributed to it, the trolls did, the "90 days tops", the "is a scam", the "is vaporware", without them that stupid drama wouldn't have happened and the SC sub wouldn't have turned into a war zone.
2015 + 2016, not 2015 alone. This was also the time where /r/ds had splintered off, so threads about ds were automodded. Yes there was drama, there's alsways drama with SC, but you cannot unequivacobly say it all rests on the goons, ds or whatever boogeyman you want to pull out of your ass.
From Summer 2015 was exactly when the "dormant DS has awaken" and the whole mess started, not pulling out of my ass it's true, if you think several of the most downvoted threads of reddit were people criticizing and sharing concerns on SC, and not the DS drama-llama blog posts and so, then you need to drop the tainted glasses for a bit and think about it for sec.
Again, opinion. This is not a fact. There are also lots of downvoting over things like criticism, ie people criticising the framerate, the game's performance, time taken for development, lack of 3.0 etc. All valid complaints that get nuked because it paints things in a bad light.
Not really, I tend to lurk the sub and I see the trend, what I don't see is this evil demoniac community you continue to talk about that oppresses every criticism, in fact the sub has constantly put walls of criticism trending for CIG to see, such as recently, hammering CIG about the missing SQ42 Roadmap they had said was coming long ago.
It's not everyone else's fault that you are the unpopular opinion and to be perfectly honest I would say if you go there or several other game communities I have been with the same tone and narrative you do here, you would be labeled as a troll and a hater, just calling it as I see it.
Downvote bots are more rumour than reality, I'm sure they do exist and people are stupid enough to employ them but it's still not enough to catapult a niche game above things like dota or lol. This test from 2 years ago where a user tries to detect bot activity does not really reach any definite conclusion
Either bot or not, it's something that happens and it's frequent to see people asking what's up with the downvotes, this in threads that are trending in the top of the sub, if this is still users of the sub trying to oppress certain topics, it sure ain't working that well for them.
That feels like confirmation bias. Yes there are trolls but a huge number and more than any other game in existence? I doubt that. The community at /r/sc love to crow about their RES tools and how they label opinions they don't like as trolls, which encourages other faithful members to do the same, all in all a very unforgiving attitude to take.
Doesn't feel like confirmation bias to me, I have never a community that was targetted by trolls as much as SC did, having people who just went and still go there just to start fires makes it so it's quite easy either by scapegoats or being caught in the middle of it, to get attacked by touching topics that became extremely toxic, I thank the trolls for that one.
/r/leagueoflegends has almost 10x the amount of subscribers and despite it being widely perceived as quite toxic it is outdone by a tiny niche community. That just strikes me as out of whack, fans ought to be thinking thats not what we want, we want to be inclusive yadda yadda but instead, as evidenced here, it gets treated as though it's an attack and the excuses and delection starts.
This only proves my point, that the threads that were included on that statistic were NOT normal people sharing criticism or concerns on SC; yet related to the huge dramas of 2015, I would place any bets those most downvoted threads are surely things like the DS blogs, and even submissions in the sub (before he got banned from it), as well other things of similar nature.
Nothing else would have be capable to reach those numbers for a much smaller sub. And you know this, it's pretty obvious, unless the community is toxic because we downvoted DS BS from when it was being constantly spammed on it (thanks goons!).
It shouldn't be ignored either. Conflicting opinions are bound to happen, that doesn't mean we should start slapping the troll label on everyone we disagree with or acting as though they are all out to get us. It's that kind of thinking that has contributed to the sub is featuring so high in that chart.
Yes it should be ignored because it is not the reason that contributed to it, the trolls did, the "90 days tops", the "is a scam", the "is vaporware", without them that stupid drama wouldn't have happened and the SC sub wouldn't have turned into a war zone.
I can't be bothered to split all this up again, so
1. I'm not saying you are pulling the ds stuff out of your ass, please read. I said whatever other boogeyman one wanted to pull out of their ass, ie waah everyone is out to get us and that's why we downvote so much. The DS stuff occured and it was also automodded pretty quickly, the DS sub also came into being at that time to keep DS talk in it's own sub rather than "polute" the SC sub which meant less contentious threads/opinions in the main sub and less downvote spamming. This isn't about tainted glasses, it's about not playing the victim.
2. I've read the sub a lot over the last 4 years and participate on occassion now, I see a lot of obnoxious behaviour from the "locals" as it were, yes there's trolling but the responses to normal questions or innocent posts/complaints can be awful at times, far more than I see in any of the other subs I frequent. If you don't see it then you are suffering from a case of selective perception, or you're simply in denial
3. Yet you cannot back that up with anything more than "feels", and as you tend to play the victim quite a lot you're bound to feel your community is being attacked on all sides by the slavering, raging mob of the internet.
4. But not proof that there is a disproportionate amount of downvotes being caused by bots. I regularly see people asking why they're getting downvoted so quickly and yet this is also something that occurs on other subreddits. The idea that it is somehow worse on /r/sc is a fallacy.
5. It doesn't prove your point at all. You're taking a boogeyman and using it to support an unprovable notion. There was also a lot of questions and complaints through 2015-2016 because of the absence of Star Marine, there was a huge amount of dissent about how CIG were behaving, There was still a lot of complaining about LTI being brought back etc. I saw more threads about this sort of stuff on /r/sc than I ever saw about DS which makes me believe the automodding was working well.
6. So ignore it then instead of complaining about it.
I can't be bothered to split all this up again, so
1. I'm not saying you are pulling the ds stuff out of your ass, please read. I said whatever other boogeyman one wanted to pull out of their ass, ie waah everyone is out to get us and that's why we downvote so much. The DS stuff occured and it was also automodded pretty quickly, the DS sub also came into being at that time to keep DS talk in it's own sub rather than "polute" the SC sub which meant less contentious threads/opinions in the main sub and less downvote spamming. This isn't about tainted glasses, it's about not playing the victim.
2. I've read the sub a lot over the last 4 years and participate on occassion now, I see a lot of obnoxious behaviour from the "locals" as it were, yes there's trolling but the responses to normal questions or innocent posts/complaints can be awful at times, far more than I see in any of the other subs I frequent. If you don't see it then you are suffering from a case of selective perception, or you're simply in denial
3. Yet you cannot back that up with anything more than "feels", and as you tend to play the victim quite a lot you're bound to feel your community is being attacked on all sides by the slavering, raging mob of the internet.
4. But not proof that there is a disproportionate amount of downvotes being caused by bots. I regularly see people asking why they're getting downvoted so quickly and yet this is also something that occurs on other subreddits. The idea that it is somehow worse on /r/sc is a fallacy.
5. It doesn't prove your point at all. You're taking a boogeyman and using it to support an unprovable notion. There was also a lot of questions and complaints through 2015-2016 because of the absence of Star Marine, there was a huge amount of dissent about how CIG were behaving, There was still a lot of complaining about LTI being brought back etc. I saw more threads about this sort of stuff on /r/sc than I ever saw about DS which makes me believe the automodding was working well.
6. So ignore it then instead of complaining about it.
As for 1) it's mostly their fault, they gave a whole scapegoat and boogieman that when the goons got involved and made a fuss on it, I remember well you didn't knew if you were speaking with a troll trying to start a fire or someone who wanted properly have a discussion, hence why people started to check post histories of the users, they made it so several topics became toxic by nature, dead horses attached.
2) Then you would have noticed either there is trolling or attacks on answers, there are people who take the time, answer and address the posts/comments. I see this often where a comment on a post is linked to show "oh the toxic SC community!" yet the comments that are upvoted to the top are people who are not being toxic, with the exception of the times where everyone is sure the OP is trolling or wants to pick a fight.
4) Well, the SC sub and if you lurk it you'll know, does have the master threads for questions and so, things like random repetitive questions or "how do I" or "should I upgrade my PC" or "when will X release" are often downvoted to oblivion. There's controversy on the SC sub about the downvote function up to the point there are people asking it to be removed, if that's even possible.
5) It's not a boogieman, if you were there you knew how big the drama was, it all centralized much to the SC sub and it was messy, we are talking about some of the most downvoted threads of the year, before DS was banned from the sub, his blog posts and even his posts were allowed, that's obviously where the biggest wave of downvotes comes from, only after his bans and so is when relinking his stuff started to get deleted.
Usually normal user-made threads do not get that many downvotes because they have way less exposure, unless they manage to hit a nerve with the community (wonder who? ), and I recall the LTI complaints being upvoted as a sort of "master-thread", or the infamous "drama sticky" thread, if anything it was repetitive threads about the same thing, say every time there is a drama there's always tons of people who start a new thread about it, those tend to get downvoted to oblivion.
And we get to the thing I think most people don't get about the SC sub, say when many recently were angry about the SQ42 Roadmap and that big trending thread was created, people get their input and so on, but after that thread comes and goes and others decide to bring back the topic with a new thread, they WILL be downvoted, not because there is a "conspiracy to oppress criticism", but because it's just repetitive rehashing of a message that was already sent.
We clearly have very different views about why there is such a downvote culture on a relatively small subreddit.
I agree that there are trolls but I do not agree that is central reason as to why people act the way they do, certainly not enough to put them ahead of subs that have 10x the subscriber base and are notorious for aggressivenesss within their competitive PVP playerbase. In the Elite sub there is a daily questions thread, new submissions regularly get moved there without any rampant downvoting or repetitive nagging comments. It's just not necessary and only serves to just fosters an asshole attitude towards new people, and the sub is full of it.
One only has to look at how the SCDF jump on blogs, news articles, youtube comments, forum posts etc as an example of how aggressive they can be, this is the attitude that a lot of the more dedicated vocal fanbase have and their home is Spectrum and/or the subreddit. It's also part of the reason they probably do get trolled because they are so easy to rile up.
Until the insanely delusional trolls and haters learn to let go and give up on attacking CIG, Star Citizen and it's community there will always be e-attrition.
That article is from 2016's summer and refers to 2015 data.
So 3 years ago, when highly crazy mofos like beer, smart and manzes were bombing every SC related media with clone accounts still thinking they could sink the project lol...
manzes probably developed an identity crisis, beer back to fantasy spreadsheet, smart retired after it's failed attempt to early access "planetside 2 killer" got removed from steam, now obsesses about trump mostly, escapist mag forced to remove the hit-piece on CIG and fired all but one of it's writers lol...
Now we have others following their footsteps with "drama concerns" or instigating refunds or whatever lol Sooner or later those will also realise that they are powerless, get bored and move on with their lives...
Meanwhile Star Citizen will keep on being developed and backers will continue to support and enjoy it's development.
Until the insanely delusional trolls and haters learn to let go and give up on attacking CIG, Star Citizen and it's community there will always be e-attrition.
That article is from 2016's summer and refers to 2015 data.
So 3 years ago, when highly crazy mofos like beer, smart and manzes were bombing every SC related media with clone accounts still thinking they could sink the project lol...
manzes probably developed an identity crisis, beer back to fantasy spreadsheet, smart retired after it's failed attempt to early access "planetside 2 killer" got removed from steam, now obsesses about trump mostly, escapist mag forced to remove the hit-piece on CIG and fired all but one of it's writers lol...
Now we have others following their footsteps with "drama concerns" or instigating refunds or whatever lol Sooner or later those will also realise that they are powerless, get bored and move on with their lives...
Meanwhile Star Citizen will keep on being developed and backers will continue to support and enjoy it's development.
Humm, Steping to the song " Take the money and run "
" Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who Would Threaten It " MAGA
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Until the insanely delusional trolls and haters learn to let go and give up on attacking CIG, Star Citizen and it's community there will always be e-attrition.
That article is from 2016's summer and refers to 2015 data.
So 3 years ago, when highly crazy mofos like beer, smart and manzes were bombing every SC related media with clone accounts still thinking they could sink the project lol...
manzes probably developed an identity crisis, beer back to fantasy spreadsheet, smart retired after it's failed attempt to early access "planetside 2 killer" got removed from steam, now obsesses about trump mostly, escapist mag forced to remove the hit-piece on CIG and fired all but one of it's writers lol...
Now we have others following their footsteps with "drama concerns" or instigating refunds or whatever lol Sooner or later those will also realise that they are powerless, get bored and move on with their lives...
Meanwhile Star Citizen will keep on being developed and backers will continue to support and enjoy it's development.
Humm, Steping to the song " Take the money and run "
That's precisely what the chart demonstrates though. The reason they are highest in the chart compared to other games is a reflection of how happy they are to downvote, it's not an indication of how many trolls target Star Citizen otherwise you'd hear all the other communities crying the same.
If someone comes into the SC community as an outsider who is there to troll and downvotes stuff, downvote rate goes up. If someone comes in and posts utter trash deserving of downvotes and people downvote it, downvote rate goes up. If there is a disproportionately high number of trolls, a disproportionately high downvote rate is to be expected.
This has to be the most poorly thought out point I've heard you attempt to make so far.
We clearly have very different views about why there is such a downvote culture on a relatively small subreddit.
I agree that there are trolls but I do not agree that is central reason as to why people act the way they do, certainly not enough to put them ahead of subs that have 10x the subscriber base and are notorious for aggressivenesss within their competitive PVP playerbase. In the Elite sub there is a daily questions thread, new submissions regularly get moved there without any rampant downvoting or repetitive nagging comments. It's just not necessary and only serves to just fosters an asshole attitude towards new people, and the sub is full of it.
One only has to look at how the SCDF jump on blogs, news articles, youtube comments, forum posts etc as an example of how aggressive they can be, this is the attitude that a lot of the more dedicated vocal fanbase have and their home is Spectrum and/or the subreddit. It's also part of the reason they probably do get trolled because they are so easy to rile up.
The issue is that people who come to a subforum, reddit, whatever of a game they dislike for years at a time to bash it are generally an extreme fringe element in any game. Not saying they don't exist, but you would expect them at a rate of like 1/1000 actual players.
With these boards you can see it's around 50%. Perhaps greater than 50%.
That's a feature unique to non-official Star Citizen forums like this one and reddit. And it absolutely does explain is disproportionate quantity of downvoting.
The issue is that people who come to a subforum, reddit, whatever of a game they dislike for years at a time to bash it are generally an extreme fringe element in any game. Not saying they don't exist, but you would expect them at a rate of like 1/1000 actual players.
I agree, they are probably outnumbered by the hardline vocal whiteknights quite significantly though, especially on somwhere like reddit.
With these boards you can see it's around 50%. Perhaps greater than 50%.
That's a feature unique to non-official Star Citizen forums like this one and reddit. And it absolutely does explain is disproportionate quantity of downvoting.
With these boards certainly, there's probably 20 or so people who post here, 8-10 pro-SC and 10-12 critics, sceptics, haters.
I wouldn't say the same proportions and dynamics occur on the subreddit though, if anything I would say it's swayed heavily in favour of the pro-SC crowd, it's basically Spectrum without the loopy mods.
The only way anyone can say it explains the disproportionate downvoting is if they believe everyone is out to get them and there's a name for that - paranoia
Ashes of Creation. Did you know that I've personally dealt with the lead developer of that game? He ran a guild called "The White Order" on ArcheAge. I'll sum up my interactions with them and say I feel he and his guild are comprised primarily of lying scumbags. They were a massive zerg guild that took over the server, abused the hell out of everyone else while saying they were helping the faction, and pretty much ruined the server. If you don't believe me or think there is more to the story that's fine, don't expect anyone to take my word on his character.
Here is something you don't have to take my word on though.
Yeah that's right. The White Order is building a chapter for Ashes of Creation. Like remember the scandal because some EVE developers were supposedly helping BoB? Well this lead developer is bringing his own zerg guild to his own game. I'm sure there will be no bias there.
I've posted this information on the Ashes of Creation subforums once or twice and I drop it every time a pro-AoC thread pops up in the Pub.
But what you won't notice is me as a regular over in the AoC forums like "DOOOOOOOOOOOM!!! YOUR LEAD DEVELOPER IS BUILDING THIS GAME SO HIS OWN GUILD CAN USE YOU ALL AS A CHEW TOY!!! DOOOOOOOM!!!! BEWARE THIS GUY WANTS YOU ALL TO BE HIS CONTENT!!!!! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!"
Even though I believe that's true. Even though I believe he's just the kind of scumbag to do favors for his own zerg guild that will be in his game. Even though I can provide that proof that they are recruiting for it. Even though I seriously personally dislike the guy and think some of his guild members like Belewyn count among the worst people I've ever met in gaming so I actually do have personal reasons to attack his game.
Because I've dropped that truth bomb on the AoC community, and to come back to say "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM" hundreds of times year after year is troll behavior. Even if it's true.
Star Citizen is a boom or bust project but Squadron 42 is a limited game that is taking far too long to develop compared to the game they are promising. If you have this much problem delivering Squadron 42, when exactly will you be able to deliver the bloated project that is Star Citizen.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Ashes of Creation. Did you know that I've personally dealt with the lead developer of that game? He ran a guild called "The White Order" on ArcheAge. I'll sum up my interactions with them and say I feel he and his guild are comprised primarily of lying scumbags. They were a massive zerg guild that took over the server, abused the hell out of everyone else while saying they were helping the faction, and pretty much ruined the server. If you don't believe me or think there is more to the story that's fine, don't expect anyone to take my word on his character.
Here is something you don't have to take my word on though.
Yeah that's right. The White Order is building a chapter for Ashes of Creation. Like remember the scandal because some EVE developers were supposedly helping BoB? Well this lead developer is bringing his own zerg guild to his own game. I'm sure there will be no bias there.
I've posted this information on the Ashes of Creation subforums once or twice and I drop it every time a pro-AoC thread pops up in the Pub.
But what you won't notice is me as a regular over in the AoC forums like "DOOOOOOOOOOOM!!! YOUR LEAD DEVELOPER IS BUILDING THIS GAME SO HIS OWN GUILD CAN USE YOU ALL AS A CHEW TOY!!! DOOOOOOOM!!!! BEWARE THIS GUY WANTS YOU ALL TO BE HIS CONTENT!!!!! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!"
Even though I believe that's true. Even though I believe he's just the kind of scumbag to do favors for his own zerg guild that will be in his game. Even though I can provide that proof that they are recruiting for it. Even though I seriously personally dislike the guy and think some of his guild members like Belewyn count among the worst people I've ever met in gaming so I actually do have personal reasons to attack his game.
Because I've dropped that truth bomb on the AoC community, and to come back to say "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM" hundreds of times year after year is troll behavior. Even if it's true.
I've heard those same stories and understand your concerns, it would be like if the Mittani announced he was building a game, I'd steer clear of it.
I'm still not convinced Ashes isn't a bunch of smoke and mirrors but I can't really play harbinger until I see some evidence of failure so I leave it be, for now anyways.
I take a few shots at SC from time to time, the devs themselves for the lack of a proposed release schedule and the fans for behaviours I really can't fathom beyond a conceptual level because I'm not wired the same way.
I try not to overuse hyperbole however, few posters say the same thing hundreds of times a year...well unless its a favorite dead horse like "is SC a MM....." er no, lets not go down that road again....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Star Citizen is a boom or bust project but Squadron 42 is a limited game that is taking far too long to develop compared to the game they are promising. If you have this much problem delivering Squadron 42, when exactly will you be able to deliver the bloated project that is Star Citizen.
What? Squadron42 limited? Where do you get that idea from lol?
I've posted this information on the Ashes of Creation subforums once or twice and I drop it every time a pro-AoC thread pops up in the Pub.
That sounds like it's ok to talk about it but not where fans might see it, but if it's a pro-AoC thread there's a good chance the fans will be in there anyway saying Oh look, Eldurian's back with his trolling, he drops the same old crap everytime a thread comes up...
And if people are allowed to talk about it elsewhere why do so many have a problem with the SC thread on other sites, the frontier forums, the SC thread on SA, the refund sub on the subreddit etc. What really happens is that the more defensive fans hate that people can talk in places they can't do shit about and decide to rag on them about it which only makes the problem worse.
But what you won't notice is me as a regular over in the AoC forums like "DOOOOOOOOOOOM!!! YOUR LEAD DEVELOPER IS BUILDING THIS GAME SO HIS OWN GUILD CAN USE YOU ALL AS A CHEW TOY!!! DOOOOOOOM!!!! BEWARE THIS GUY WANTS YOU ALL TO BE HIS CONTENT!!!!! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!"
I don't see much of that here though, there's the occassional thing but it's hardly day in, day out.
Who cares, really? If the SC project was to fold, you'd have backers blaming critics and haters just the same for causing negativity and preventing CIG from getting the funds needed to finish the project.
This idea that either side is right when they attack one another is silly. Everybody blames the other side, everybody perpetuates the issue. The only difference between SC and other projects is the funding involved, really.
2015 was the year of the infamous escapist article, think that says it all.
Once that came out, people were flipping out all over the place before any proof was given, think it was Forbes that did an article on it stating it as truth, got backlash for printing it with no proof and then made another article calling everyone cultists.
but since then the BS died down because people realized it was just that, BS.
Feel like people are still riding a train that no longer exists, i mean honestly what is the purpose of the image? You're trying to prove a community is toxic....why?
Is it this "honest criticism" I so often hear?
This is why no one takes SC drama or the " honest criticism" seriously anymore. When people are at the same nonsense they have been for several years, singing the same tune, it just becomes background noise, and if you ever had a point it's been lost or you've killed it.
Comments
1) The chart mentions not the subs with most downvotes, YET the subs that had the top most downvoted threads of Reddit in that year.
^ With that logic and as I mentioned this was 2015 data it's pretty obvious why once we're aware of the massive epic dramas, the rise of DS and the Goons, the threads that statistic englobes are most certainly DS blogs, propaganda by goons, articles like the escapists one, and things like that.
2) As a matter of fact, in the current reality of the sub, the majority of the downvoted threads are actually question threads, there is a sticky thread for it so it's quite easy to notice most of the downvoted threads in the sub are actually questions submitted outside of it.
3) Downvote bots, even threads that end up on the top of the sub, face heavy downvotes at the start, it's something unaware people often ask why are they being downvoted.
4) A HUGE number of trolls, I have never seen other game sub that have been so attacked and intentionally provoked by trolls than the SC one, then go figure why people ended up taking a defensive stand, in fact the standard of the SC sub became looking at the post history to know if they are talking with something who is there to discuss something, or with a troll/hater just trying to start a fire.
5) The toxic part of the community who is intentionally aggressive does not represent the generality of it, that does decide to stay out of it.
6) The Obvious: On Reddit, if your opinion is the unpopular opinion, you're going to be downvoted, no matter where, it's just how it works, and why many people consider the ability to downvote of being toxic.
Using this as any proof is petty and just part of that desperate need for haters to continue mudslinging at SC, its developers, and its community. Using hyperbole to
2015 + 2016, not 2015 alone. This was also the time where /r/ds had splintered off, so threads about ds were automodded. Yes there was drama, there's always drama with SC, but you cannot unequivacobly say it all rests on the goons, ds or whatever other boogeymen you want to pull out of your backside.
Again, opinion. This is not a fact. There are also lots of downvoting over things like criticism, ie people criticising the framerate, the game's performance, time taken for development, lack of 3.0 etc. All valid complaints that get nuked because it paints things in a bad light.
Downvote bots are more rumour than reality, I'm sure they do exist and people are stupid enough to employ them but it's still not enough to catapult a niche game above things like dota or lol. This test from 2 years ago where a user tries to detect bot activity does not really reach any definite conclusion https://old.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/4622un/test_post_detecting_auto_downvote_bots/
That feels like confirmation bias. Yes there are trolls but a huge number and more than any other game in existence? I doubt that. The community at /r/sc love to crow about their RES tools and how they label opinions they don't like as trolls, which encourages other faithful members to do the same, all in all a very unforgiving attitude to take.
No one claims that it does. However the toxic part is also the most vocal, bullying part. They're the one's who leap on any perceived criticism or misunderstanding with knives drawn from the off. They give the game and it's better community a bad name, there's no escaping that.
As I mentioned above and in my other post, there is a disproportionate amount of downvoting, especially when you take into account number of subscribers and amount of traffic for each of these subs, for somehere as small as r/sc to feature so high in the list should make people ask what is going on...
It's a legtimate concern but this thread is a prime example of how certain people behave, alleging that it's being used as a weaponised attack on the game, as a method for trolling etc.
/r/leagueoflegends has almost 10x the amount of subscribers and despite it being widely perceived as quite toxic it is outdone by a tiny niche community. That just strikes me as out of whack, fans ought to be thinking thats not what we want, we want to be inclusive yadda yadda but instead, as evidenced here, it gets treated as though it's an attack and the excuses and delection starts.
It shouldn't be ignored either. Conflicting opinions are bound to happen, that doesn't mean we should start slapping the troll label on everyone we disagree with or acting as though they are all out to get us. It's that kind of thinking that has contributed to the sub is featuring so high in that chart.
At some point Roberts will have to reign his ambition in long enough for Star Citizen to reach a point of commercial release or it will simply never get there.
Not really, I tend to lurk the sub and I see the trend, what I don't see is this evil demoniac community you continue to talk about that oppresses every criticism, in fact the sub has constantly put walls of criticism trending for CIG to see, such as recently, hammering CIG about the missing SQ42 Roadmap they had said was coming long ago.
It's not everyone else's fault that you are the unpopular opinion and to be perfectly honest I would say if you go there or several other game communities I have been with the same tone and narrative you do here, you would be labeled as a troll and a hater, just calling it as I see it.
Either bot or not, it's something that happens and it's frequent to see people asking what's up with the downvotes, this in threads that are trending in the top of the sub, if this is still users of the sub trying to oppress certain topics, it sure ain't working that well for them.
Doesn't feel like confirmation bias to me, I have never a community that was targetted by trolls as much as SC did, having people who just went and still go there just to start fires makes it so it's quite easy either by scapegoats or being caught in the middle of it, to get attacked by touching topics that became extremely toxic, I thank the trolls for that one.
This only proves my point, that the threads that were included on that statistic were NOT normal people sharing criticism or concerns on SC; yet related to the huge dramas of 2015, I would place any bets those most downvoted threads are surely things like the DS blogs, and even submissions in the sub (before he got banned from it), as well other things of similar nature.
Nothing else would have be capable to reach those numbers for a much smaller sub. And you know this, it's pretty obvious, unless the community is toxic because we downvoted DS BS from when it was being constantly spammed on it (thanks goons!).
Yes it should be ignored because it is not the reason that contributed to it, the trolls did, the "90 days tops", the "is a scam", the "is vaporware", without them that stupid drama wouldn't have happened and the SC sub wouldn't have turned into a war zone.
I can't be bothered to split all this up again, so
1. I'm not saying you are pulling the ds stuff out of your ass, please read. I said whatever other boogeyman one wanted to pull out of their ass, ie waah everyone is out to get us and that's why we downvote so much.
The DS stuff occured and it was also automodded pretty quickly, the DS sub also came into being at that time to keep DS talk in it's own sub rather than "polute" the SC sub which meant less contentious threads/opinions in the main sub and less downvote spamming.
This isn't about tainted glasses, it's about not playing the victim.
2. I've read the sub a lot over the last 4 years and participate on occassion now, I see a lot of obnoxious behaviour from the "locals" as it were, yes there's trolling but the responses to normal questions or innocent posts/complaints can be awful at times, far more than I see in any of the other subs I frequent.
If you don't see it then you are suffering from a case of selective perception, or you're simply in denial
3. Yet you cannot back that up with anything more than "feels", and as you tend to play the victim quite a lot you're bound to feel your community is being attacked on all sides by the slavering, raging mob of the internet.
4. But not proof that there is a disproportionate amount of downvotes being caused by bots. I regularly see people asking why they're getting downvoted so quickly and yet this is also something that occurs on other subreddits. The idea that it is somehow worse on /r/sc is a fallacy.
5. It doesn't prove your point at all. You're taking a boogeyman and using it to support an unprovable notion. There was also a lot of questions and complaints through 2015-2016 because of the absence of Star Marine, there was a huge amount of dissent about how CIG were behaving, There was still a lot of complaining about LTI being brought back etc. I saw more threads about this sort of stuff on /r/sc than I ever saw about DS which makes me believe the automodding was working well.
6. So ignore it then instead of complaining about it.
2) Then you would have noticed either there is trolling or attacks on answers, there are people who take the time, answer and address the posts/comments. I see this often where a comment on a post is linked to show "oh the toxic SC community!" yet the comments that are upvoted to the top are people who are not being toxic, with the exception of the times where everyone is sure the OP is trolling or wants to pick a fight.
4) Well, the SC sub and if you lurk it you'll know, does have the master threads for questions and so, things like random repetitive questions or "how do I" or "should I upgrade my PC" or "when will X release" are often downvoted to oblivion. There's controversy on the SC sub about the downvote function up to the point there are people asking it to be removed, if that's even possible.
5) It's not a boogieman, if you were there you knew how big the drama was, it all centralized much to the SC sub and it was messy, we are talking about some of the most downvoted threads of the year, before DS was banned from the sub, his blog posts and even his posts were allowed, that's obviously where the biggest wave of downvotes comes from, only after his bans and so is when relinking his stuff started to get deleted.
Usually normal user-made threads do not get that many downvotes because they have way less exposure, unless they manage to hit a nerve with the community (wonder who?
And we get to the thing I think most people don't get about the SC sub, say when many recently were angry about the SQ42 Roadmap and that big trending thread was created, people get their input and so on, but after that thread comes and goes and others decide to bring back the topic with a new thread, they WILL be downvoted, not because there is a "conspiracy to oppress criticism", but because it's just repetitive rehashing of a message that was already sent.
I agree that there are trolls but I do not agree that is central reason as to why people act the way they do, certainly not enough to put them ahead of subs that have 10x the subscriber base and are notorious for aggressivenesss within their competitive PVP playerbase.
In the Elite sub there is a daily questions thread, new submissions regularly get moved there without any rampant downvoting or repetitive nagging comments. It's just not necessary and only serves to just fosters an asshole attitude towards new people, and the sub is full of it.
One only has to look at how the SCDF jump on blogs, news articles, youtube comments, forum posts etc as an example of how aggressive they can be, this is the attitude that a lot of the more dedicated vocal fanbase have and their home is Spectrum and/or the subreddit. It's also part of the reason they probably do get trolled because they are so easy to rile up.
That article is from 2016's summer and refers to 2015 data.
So 3 years ago, when highly crazy mofos like beer, smart and manzes were bombing every SC related media with clone accounts still thinking they could sink the project lol...
manzes probably developed an identity crisis, beer back to fantasy spreadsheet, smart retired after it's failed attempt to early access "planetside 2 killer" got removed from steam, now obsesses about trump mostly, escapist mag forced to remove the hit-piece on CIG and fired all but one of it's writers lol...
Now we have others following their footsteps with "drama concerns" or instigating refunds or whatever lol
Sooner or later those will also realise that they are powerless, get bored and move on with their lives...
Meanwhile Star Citizen will keep on being developed and backers will continue to support and enjoy it's development.
Humm, Steping to the song " Take the money and run "
MAGA
I imagine you guys all driving around town in stripped down dune buggies while the rest of us wait for delivery on a Lambo.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If someone comes into the SC community as an outsider who is there to troll and downvotes stuff, downvote rate goes up. If someone comes in and posts utter trash deserving of downvotes and people downvote it, downvote rate goes up. If there is a disproportionately high number of trolls, a disproportionately high downvote rate is to be expected.
This has to be the most poorly thought out point I've heard you attempt to make so far.
With these boards you can see it's around 50%. Perhaps greater than 50%.
That's a feature unique to non-official Star Citizen forums like this one and reddit. And it absolutely does explain is disproportionate quantity of downvoting.
With these boards certainly, there's probably 20 or so people who post here, 8-10 pro-SC and 10-12 critics, sceptics, haters.
I wouldn't say the same proportions and dynamics occur on the subreddit though, if anything I would say it's swayed heavily in favour of the pro-SC crowd, it's basically Spectrum without the loopy mods.
The only way anyone can say it explains the disproportionate downvoting is if they believe everyone is out to get them and there's a name for that - paranoia
Ashes of Creation. Did you know that I've personally dealt with the lead developer of that game? He ran a guild called "The White Order" on ArcheAge. I'll sum up my interactions with them and say I feel he and his guild are comprised primarily of lying scumbags. They were a massive zerg guild that took over the server, abused the hell out of everyone else while saying they were helping the faction, and pretty much ruined the server. If you don't believe me or think there is more to the story that's fine, don't expect anyone to take my word on his character.
Here is something you don't have to take my word on though.
http://forum.thewhiteorder.com/aoc-recruitment/
Yeah that's right. The White Order is building a chapter for Ashes of Creation. Like remember the scandal because some EVE developers were supposedly helping BoB? Well this lead developer is bringing his own zerg guild to his own game. I'm sure there will be no bias there.
I've posted this information on the Ashes of Creation subforums once or twice and I drop it every time a pro-AoC thread pops up in the Pub.
But what you won't notice is me as a regular over in the AoC forums like "DOOOOOOOOOOOM!!! YOUR LEAD DEVELOPER IS BUILDING THIS GAME SO HIS OWN GUILD CAN USE YOU ALL AS A CHEW TOY!!! DOOOOOOOM!!!! BEWARE THIS GUY WANTS YOU ALL TO BE HIS CONTENT!!!!! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!"
Even though I believe that's true. Even though I believe he's just the kind of scumbag to do favors for his own zerg guild that will be in his game. Even though I can provide that proof that they are recruiting for it. Even though I seriously personally dislike the guy and think some of his guild members like Belewyn count among the worst people I've ever met in gaming so I actually do have personal reasons to attack his game.
Because I've dropped that truth bomb on the AoC community, and to come back to say "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM" hundreds of times year after year is troll behavior. Even if it's true.
I'm still not convinced Ashes isn't a bunch of smoke and mirrors but I can't really play harbinger until I see some evidence of failure so I leave it be, for now anyways.
I take a few shots at SC from time to time, the devs themselves for the lack of a proposed release schedule and the fans for behaviours I really can't fathom beyond a conceptual level because I'm not wired the same way.
I try not to overuse hyperbole however, few posters say the same thing hundreds of times a year...well unless its a favorite dead horse like "is SC a MM....." er no, lets not go down that road again....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And if people are allowed to talk about it elsewhere why do so many have a problem with the SC thread on other sites, the frontier forums, the SC thread on SA, the refund sub on the subreddit etc. What really happens is that the more defensive fans hate that people can talk in places they can't do shit about and decide to rag on them about it which only makes the problem worse.
I don't see much of that here though, there's the occassional thing but it's hardly day in, day out.
This idea that either side is right when they attack one another is silly. Everybody blames the other side, everybody perpetuates the issue. The only difference between SC and other projects is the funding involved, really.
Once that came out, people were flipping out all over the place before any proof was given, think it was Forbes that did an article on it stating it as truth, got backlash for printing it with no proof and then made another article calling everyone cultists.
but since then the BS died down because people realized it was just that, BS.
Feel like people are still riding a train that no longer exists, i mean honestly what is the purpose of the image? You're trying to prove a community is toxic....why?
Is it this "honest criticism" I so often hear?
This is why no one takes SC drama or the " honest criticism" seriously anymore. When people are at the same nonsense they have been for several years, singing the same tune, it just becomes background noise, and if you ever had a point it's been lost or you've killed it.