Originally posted by zaxtor99 I agree with JMoney completely here. I will prevent him from being singled out and admit that I have also bought virtual currency. I have sold it as well in UO, but in Dark Age of Camelot, I purchased plats quickly and easily on eBay a few years back. So WHY you ask. The answers really have already been given. And those answers some might assume as being "lazy". I would classify it as more wanting to play the aspects of the game that I enjoyed the most instead of those aspects that I didn't enjoy so much. Farming for money is pretty easy in DAoC. But PvP on my old server Andred (now Mordred) was very expensive. If you did PvP on the PvP servers, you got ganked all the time, and some of the time you had good fights. Regardless, the PvP was insanely fun at ANY level. But as you level up, the money loss and cost to repair your armor and weapons gets more and more exensive and adds up very fast. I didn't feel that it was worth going out and farming cash for 6 hours to go have 1 good solid hour of PvP fun and be able to buy back my con (health) and repair my goods. See when you die in PvP on DAoC... or atleast it used to be like this...you lost a few points of "con" or your maximum health level went down with each death. If you didn't buy that back from an NPC healer, then pretty soon, your avatar was ridiculously fragile and weak. And since $20 or so on eBay basically covered more gold then I could farm in a month, it was a very tempting and wise choice for me to avoid those aspects of the game I considered boring and get to the aspects of the game I found fun and excting. Here come the flames, regardless of the OP's good advice in the first post and posts through-out not to flame away.
- Zaxx
I'll throw in my voice here too. I've bought currency for Lineage 2, World of Warcraft, Ive sold gametime codes for Eve Online ISK. I never regretted it, i'll do it again.
its funny when people call currency buyers "lazy" because they dont want to take part in the most mundane mechanics of an MMO which is farming. Meaning, sitting your fat ass at a computer..wasting the day away for hours as you link yourself into a virtual world stuffing your face full of caffiene and cheetohs so you can make virtual money. They hog resources lowbies could use for levelling and quests much like a typical currency farmer who ebays his earnings. The only difference here is, they dont sell their earnings..they spend it. Why is one right and the other wrong.
Meanwhile, the currency buyer is spending time with his/her family..working his career job for more hours then he would really like to.. taking care of home repairs, car repairs, helping other family members out with their lives etc. At the end of the day, they want to log in and have some fun so they drop the equivalent of a night out at the bar for a couple hundred K of gold, or hundred mill worth of ISK so they can jump in and skip slaughtering low level mobs (which ruins the game for lowbies who need these challenging mobs for their quests, levels etc.) and play the fun parts of the game without destroying hunting grounds by grinding low level areas for currency.
point being, people who dont buy currency are lazy irl and ruin the game just as badly as currency ebay sellers.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
That's a super easy one to answer.It's like why bot or cheat?Some people[alot]will do whatever it takes to get ahead.Only a handful of people play games for the self achievement or satisfaction.It's almost like there trying to impress someone ,maybe there friends at school or something i don't know.
Player's tend to treat the game like it's real life.They don't want to look gimp in game.I guess they get a complex if someone calls them gimp for wearing old gear or gear that isn't the +1 +2 elite gear.Alot of weak self concious people out there.
Everyone in the world has there own ideas on what they want out of a game,so don't expect virtual selling to go away ever.In fact ,what is happening,the games are starting to create there own virtual seller world to keep players from spending outside of game like on ebay or wherever.
This goes on in real life also.Just look at the new york yankees trying to buy there way to the titles rather than operate on a fair budget with the rest of the teams.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I have bought money twice before, I don't mind admitting it. The reason why I bought it, well that's simple, I didn't want to spend the countless hours needed to get the money. Sure some people may enjoy farming for a long time to get what they need, and others just don't have the time/don't want to. See what I find most unfortunate about these debates is most of the people (not all granted) who are against Virtual Trading always say that the reason we buy money is because we're lazy. That's far from the truth. Many times there are people who work all day, then have 1 hour or 2 to play their favorite game. Think about it for a second, what makes more sense, to purchase some gold for a minimal amount of money compared to what you earn from your job, or to spend hours and hours (in this case, since that person hardly has time to play, will need to spend months) to get the gold to get whatever? It just doesn't make sense.
Razor made a good point, Game companies are pretty much inviting for this to happen by making it ridiculously boring to get gold. It may not necessarily be hard, but most of the times it's really boring. Find a better way for us to make gold instead of straight up grinding mobs or grinding through the same old crafting and you know what, you would see virtual sales go down by a lot. Of course they would still exist, there will always be the market for Virtual Trading, but it will be less.
To answer the question of where I bought it, was a 3rd party.
I also saw a mention of scams, your best bet is to check out a site that's well known. One that's well known is less likely to scam you, seeing as they have a reputation to uphold. I know a lot of currency sites use Paypal, check their rating to see how many successful transactions they've done. If they've done a lot, then you will feel more safe in the end. When I first went to buy money I was afraid of the same thing, but through a little investigating I felt comfortable in the end.
I understand there are too many people who hate us and think we are the bane of MMOs. Before you knock on me, just at least read my post, that's all I ask, and that's all we ask. Hear us out, don't judge us immediately without even knowning the full story. I'm not saying my opinion is the fact and that everyone who knocks Virtual Trading is an idiot, I'm just saying give us a chance and read into it first. You don't have to approve of what we do, but you don't have to cast us away like we are some sort of plague.
Originally posted by ayuchan if you spent ten hours playing a poker game and you found out someone was cheating...you'd be pretty pissed about it...now imagine playing hundreds of hours...and seeing people cheat
It's only cheating if it's against the rules of the game, not just because you don't like it. The person talking about buying ISK through timecards in eve IS NOT CHEATING, and all of you 'buying game cash is evil' types should stop accusing someome of cheating for playing a game by the rules. You keep harping on cheating and how it 'ruins the game', but when that's all you post your arguments go flat if it's not cheating. You can post on the trade boards on the official EVE forums to pay money for isk as long as you do it by buying a timecard and selling it to someome in-game for ISK, and if someome doesn't come through on their end of the bargain then GMs will intervene. It is behavior explicitly allowed by the people running the game.
What you're doing is more like complaining that someome is cheating in poker because they bluffed you, even though bluffing is within the rules.
Originally posted by ayuchan if you spent ten hours playing a poker game and you found out someone was cheating...you'd be pretty pissed about it...now imagine playing hundreds of hours...and seeing people cheat
It's only cheating if it's against the rules of the game, not just because you don't like it. The person talking about buying ISK through timecards in eve IS NOT CHEATING, and all of you 'buying game cash is evil' types should stop accusing someome of cheating for playing a game by the rules. You keep harping on cheating and how it 'ruins the game', but when that's all you post your arguments go flat if it's not cheating. You can post on the trade boards on the official EVE forums to pay money for isk as long as you do it by buying a timecard and selling it to someome in-game for ISK, and if someome doesn't come through on their end of the bargain then GMs will intervene. It is behavior explicitly allowed by the people running the game.
What you're doing is more like complaining that someome is cheating in poker because they bluffed you, even though bluffing is within the rules.
of course if the game designers have sanctioned money buying, i have no problem with it
when people play poker, many make they're own custom rules as they play...this is okay as long as everyone agrees to it in advance...what we have here is people agreeing to a set of rules, and then saying fuck this...i don't like these rules so i'm gonna play the way i like...this is okay in a solo game where it affects no one like when you get a cheat code to play your solo fps or solo rpg game...but don't tell me people don't get higher gear and then in a pvp game use it to kill people...or in pve game use their "bought" power to gain a unique item that they would have not been able to achieve without their stronger gear
if what you say about eve is true...then of course its okay...but in the games i've played...money buying is against the rules...thus cheating
Originally posted by ayuchan Iof course if the game designers have sanctioned money buying, i have no problem with it
So are you going to apologize to the guy you accused of cheating for your false accusation? You certainly seemed to have a problem with it before.
what we have here is people agreeing to a set of rules, and then saying fuck this...i don't like these rules so i'm gonna play the way i like...
Actually, what we have here is people agreeing to a set of rules, then you saying 'I don't like these rules, therefore you're cheating for playing by them.'
Rant all you want about people cheating, but buying ISK using timecards is NOT CHEATING in EVE.
After playing COH I wanted to play a new game and have a great adventure.
At that point I was in denial about grind and the reality that mmorpgs using it are boring unethical tricks designed to hook players with the promise of good things that barely happen. It's just capitalist crap.
All of the stuff that people talk about regarding "achievements" and "work" is not real, but rather you being a sucker. Think about it.
You aren't achieving anything, mosting because you're following a set mathematically defined path. So, that's your big accomplishment. That's why bots can do just as well as you. No thinking or strategy required!
Anyway, having realized this at the end of COH I decided to buy Lineage II and see how that was. Frankly, I was shocked at the truly heinous grind and massive expense of useful items. So, I decided to buy some gold.
I had a nice sum of money in my paypal account and ended up getting 20 million!
Well that bought me very little and didn't help too much with advancement. So, I ended up quitting the game
In the end, I know that I will never spend money on "gold" again, because it's a hustle, that makes money off of another hustle (the game).
After playing L2 since last Sept at a casual pace and having a huge focus on the market (I also had about a 5 or 6 week break in there around the holidays) So far I have only made level 42. I could have been much much higher by now. I am in a guild and we have a guild hall which provides buff. This makes leveling extreamly easy even at my level. Granted I did bring 2 alts up to level 30 which took a chunk of time (but the classes and races just look and play so damn good) All of my character have top or close to top grade gear.
I am homegrown no bought currency or boting. (something that is NOT that rare, most players are on the level) But all that time I spent selling I could have spent "playing" the game. Yes, the selling is part of the game but because of the cost of much of the gear a gigantic amount of time is needed.
In hindsight, I really didn't enjoy doing the market all that much. Yeah I met a lot of people, had some good laughs, but all I was really doing was sitting around chatting while the rest of my guild did raids and seiges. (my guild offered me money several time, everyone is in the level 60-70 range, but I refused because I wanted to do it myself)
So yeah, I was tempted a few time to say screw it and just drop 20 bucks on 10 million or so adena. Really just to save some time. (wow bro, you got 20 million? thats a huge amount of money!) I not giving up L2. IMHO its a fantastic game, open seemless world, player driven economy (for better or worse) , risk / reward, and consequence of action. (although open PvsP. there are consequences to your actions) Its far from perfect but I like it.
What I am see here, based on the replies is that the players who are buying currency DO have a valid arguement. I have always held the position that forced GRIND / FARMING adds NOTHING to the game at all. It contributes NOTHING to the RPG experience. It just takes up time.
Razorback (in the post about the chinenes farmers, BTW not all Asian players are farmers, there are far more Asians playing MMORPGs then westerners so please be careful about stereotyping and descriminating) seems to have hit the nail on the head. If game designers continue to produce all these games with crappy gameplay...you will continue to see this problem I guess. At least until some dev team out there collectively "grabs their nuts" and adds some RPG to these games.
*Everyone who did share their experience of buying currency and stuff with us so far, thanks for your openess and shareing your views with us!
I'll admit it, I have purchased game currency for many mmorpgs.WHY? Beacause I can afford to,thats why.I work 40+ hours a week ,have 2 kids a wife and a cat.So it usally late at night when I finally get too sit down and grind some xp and quests.And the last thing I wanna do is to be held up cause I have no currency in a game.I really dont see nothing wrong with it.Its not cheating cause essentialy you still have too play the game.It just helps out a bit.And some people say it ruins the game.market and etc.Well I have been gameing since my first console (ATARI 2600) And let me tell you this,when it comes down to it.Its just a game.A temporay escape from the daily grind called "life".If only I could buy currency in real life like I do in many mmorpgs.
If you got some money to blow, it's your money. Do whatever the hell you want with it. If someone makes fun of you for it, it's most likely because they can't afford to do it themselves. Usually because mommy won't let them use her credit card.
It is fun to work for a loot drop... it is fun to work for skill .... it is not fun to also have to make money to buy items that you can get no other way and that you could easily get if you were wiling to put off playing the game as you like just to make money to buy the item.
That said, it is rewarding to play a game with crafting like the crafting that went on in Pre-CU SWG. WoW has no crafting like that, nothing to be proud of, no player cities, no player vendors, and no difference in the resources or items made so the games crafting side sucks.
I dont see why anyone but a farmer would care to make money in WoW, so for me it is easier and lets me play the game if I just go buy from a farmer.
In SWG before LAE and SOE ruined it, I had a lot of harvestors, vendors, and I crafted a lot so I made plenty of money. It was rewarding to me in that system so entertaining and I didn't feel a need to buy "digital credits."
"SWG was a world, now it's just a game" -adamrk-
"When the game was good, you didn't have to ask where the population was, because it was everywhere. When the game was good you didn't have to ask which server had population, because they all did. When the game was good you didn't have to beg friends to give it a try, because they were already playing. " - Salty Pete
Originally posted by Aikes It is fun to work for a loot drop... it is fun to work for skill .... it is not fun to also have to make money to buy items that you can get no other way and that you could easily get if you were wiling to put off playing the game as you like just to make money to buy the item. That said, it is rewarding to play a game with crafting like the crafting that went on in Pre-CU SWG. WoW has no crafting like that, nothing to be proud of, no player cities, no player vendors, and no difference in the resources or items made so the games crafting side sucks. I dont see why anyone but a farmer would care to make money in WoW, so for me it is easier and lets me play the game if I just go buy from a farmer. In SWG before LAE and SOE ruined it, I had a lot of harvestors, vendors, and I crafted a lot so I made plenty of money. It was rewarding to me in that system so entertaining and I didn't feel a need to buy "digital credits."
It is much different to "work" for a goal like crafting or building in game then it is to grind mindlessly isn't it?
Lets look at some of the mechanics of the old SWG real fast. (it really is a shame what they did to that game) Aren't "harvesters" just afk farmers in some sense? Aren't vendors afk shops? (lord I WISH they had vendors in L2, life would be perfect then)
AND, what is the difference between me taking money from my clan rather then buying it? Wouldn't I still acquire the currence either way? My guild gets an insane amount of drops a week doing raids. (when I want to drool, I just look in our guild vault) They have offered me 5 and 10 million to help get me leveling along faster. So what would be the difference if I took that money (earned through high level raid / crafting profits and high level grinding by guildmates) or buying currency? Wouldn't you still "unfairly" acquire the currency? You still don't "work" for it. The only real difference is I don't give out RL cash for it. Of course you could say I did "work" for it in the sense that I interacted enough to earn the trust and friendship of other players ingame.
I am almost 100% ALL of us have recieved funds and/or gear ingame from other players as gifts. So...what is the difference? (aside from the RL cash?)
Is taking gifts of cash and items from other players the same as buying currency? (mechanically speaking) - For example when I started playing DAoC a few years back I had some RL friends who had been playing for awhile and had Level 50 characters. As soon as I logged into the game my buddy handed me 200 gold. In DAoC 200 gold is a ton of money at low levels.
Did I cheat?and if not, how is that different from buying currency?
I bought money from a Third Party system on World of Warcraft... With the currenty player scamoconomy ... sorry "Economy" I needed the money.
I had been tempted many times to buy the money to get the items I needed... Time was something I did not have at that time, nor the ability to earn money fast...
I dont like to grind money for 11-40 hours just to buy a few items.... I plan to buy again in order to get my epic mount... Time is still something I dont have.
Real life makes way to much of a mess for me to play more then 2 hours a day at night time.
"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys. Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!" - Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Here is another way to look at it for those who think buying currency os soooo bad.
Have you ever received money from a friend?
Have you ever received an item from a friend?
The only difference in those two compared to buying it is that the guy who gave it to me received something in return. In BOTH cases money was received that was not "earned" as they like to say, so if you think buying money is cheating, so is receiving ANY gifts or money from friends.
Money was farmed in both cases, by someone other than me or you, then we received it.
And for those who think it "ruins the economy", it doesnt destroy it anymore than some guy who can play all day farming gold. And it doesnt ruin it anymore than the morons who set there prices in auctions sky high. The only way it would ruin the economy is if the money was duped / created, not farmed.
If you think does, then instead of me playing 1 hour a day and buying 100 gold differ in ruining the economy than if I played 10 hours a day and farmed 100 gold? 100 gold is mine, in the same time frame, how does me farming it in 10 hours NOT ruin the economy but me playing for 1 hour and buying it does? This is in a 24 hour period.
Originally posted by Danovitche I had been tempted many times to buy the money to get the items I needed...
That is part of the problem. The perception of need...it's a game. You don't need to do anything.
Consider what happens in a game where farming and currency buying are commonplace. When you join a new party, people look over your kit and think "What's a level 53 character doing with level 42 shoulders... KICK". They do this becuase they know they can easily find a replacement with the latest and best gear. The only way to join parties is to either farm for that gear, or engage in currency trading. Hence once currency trading reaches a certain level in a game, many more people are forced to adopt it.
I have never brought ingame currency, despite easily being able to afford it. I resent games where the above situation occurs.
Originally posted by JMoney95 Here is another way to look at it for those who think buying currency os soooo bad.
Have you ever received money from a friend? Have you ever received an item from a friend?
The only difference in those two compared to buying it is that the guy who gave it to me received something in return.
No - there is a very clear difference. Suppose your friend hadn't given you the money. The money would still exist in the world. Chances are he would have spent it on something else. The game world is pretty much unchanged.
Now consider what happens when you buy money from farmers. These farmers wouldn't even bother playing the game unless there was a market, so by purchasing money in this way you are effectively introducing new money into the economy. Result - inflation. With more money around, prices go up, making it harder for other people to afford stuff (meaning they either have to buy or farm for longer.) In a game with large amount of currency buying, players who don't want to buy currency are forced to farm to compete not just with other players, but also to compete with the professional farmers who are supplying their rivals. No wonder it can get boring...
Originally posted by Antipathy Originally posted by JMoney95 Here is another way to look at it for those who think buying currency os soooo bad.
Have you ever received money from a friend? Have you ever received an item from a friend?
The only difference in those two compared to buying it is that the guy who gave it to me received something in return.
No - there is a very clear difference. Suppose your friend hadn't given you the money. The money would still exist in the world. Chances are he would have spent it on something else. The game world is pretty much unchanged.
Now consider what happens when you buy money from farmers. These farmers wouldn't even bother playing the game unless there was a market, so by purchasing money in this way you are effectively introducing new money into the economy. Result - inflation. With more money around, prices go up, making it harder for other people to afford stuff (meaning they either have to buy or farm for longer.) In a game with large amount of currency buying, players who don't want to buy currency are forced to farm to compete not just with other players, but also to compete with the professional farmers who are supplying their rivals. No wonder it can get boring...
Not true. The money may have just sat in his inventory doing nothing. Many players in WoW that have all epics don't have anything to spend cash on. No money is beig introduced. The prices aren't the fault of the people buying, it's the fault of players charging. Keep the SELL prices reasonable and it will never be a problem, but most MMO players are retarded and charge sky high prices for crap. My 60 rogue in WoW had all BoE gear, and epic mount, only thing I ever had to buy was repairs, potions and food, trivial cheap items. Rest of my money just kept stockpiling.
Also the question was what is the difference between me playing 1 hour a day and buying 100 gold, or me playing 10 hours a day and farming 100 gold. Same amount of money for me, same time frame. So you are saying that people who play enough to farm money ruin the economy? I sure as hell havent bought more money than half the players can farm in the time frame I use it in.
There is no difference, you either have to admit that farming ruins the economy, which throws out your that whole arguement, disappear from the thread, or try to justify how farming 100 gold in a 24 hour period is different than buying 100 gold in the same period. You gonna try and say that it's different? That if I logged on for one hour in one day and bought 100 gold is different than me logging in for 10 hours in one day and farming 100 gold?
The truth, which people like you will probably never admit too, is that people who buy currency (not insane amounts here, I'm talking small, how MOST buyers do it, MOST don't go spend $300 on 50,000 gold to be cool, most would do it at 1k gold or less, Around $50.) don't affect the economy anymore than the people who play alot, and farm loads of cash.
I've mentioned before that I'm a 39 year old man. During the last large portion of that time I have spent criminally large amounts of time trying to earn money (at a noble profession that doesn't pay a lot) and building my trade.
At certain points life has been so stressful that I didn't quite know what to do with myself.
Anyway, can you imagine just how unappealing it is to be massively poor in a GAME having to do the same thing over and over working to produce "items" that aren't that good to begin with?
That's what most adults do in real life.
That's why mmorpgs won't catch on with most adults any time soon. It's mostly young people that haven't yet realized that life can be a mirror of some of these games. Trust me, that realization is demoralizing.
There's nothing more sad that seeing a town square in in Lineage II filled with people sitting around waiting to make a buck. In fact, that game should have an "obesity" setting that allows your character to get dramatically out of shape from inactivity.
My belief is that older people would be attracted to a game that had drama and a sense of urgency to the story. There's no reason to kill a thousand "bugbears" and it's frustrating to gather "swamp dust" and 50 other things just to make a pair of gloves. No one that has a complex life wants to do this and I believe it especially true that no one with a stressful life wants to FAIL at it.
Many of these games promise fun and don't deliver and that's why people cheat.
Originally posted by Antipathy Originally posted by JMoney95 Here is another way to look at it for those who think buying currency os soooo bad.
Have you ever received money from a friend? Have you ever received an item from a friend?
The only difference in those two compared to buying it is that the guy who gave it to me received something in return.
No - there is a very clear difference. Suppose your friend hadn't given you the money. The money would still exist in the world. Chances are he would have spent it on something else. The game world is pretty much unchanged.
Now consider what happens when you buy money from farmers. These farmers wouldn't even bother playing the game unless there was a market, so by purchasing money in this way you are effectively introducing new money into the economy. Result - inflation. With more money around, prices go up, making it harder for other people to afford stuff (meaning they either have to buy or farm for longer.) In a game with large amount of currency buying, players who don't want to buy currency are forced to farm to compete not just with other players, but also to compete with the professional farmers who are supplying their rivals. No wonder it can get boring...
But does it have a real impact on the economy or is it just perceved that way? Think about the mechanics of farming. Someone goes out and kills the mobs and takes the cash. Something the farmer or any other player would do anyway.
The player might save up for a 1000gp mount. The farmer will sell his 1000gp. End result....both farm, both use the money, both have spent roughly an equal amount of time ingame. (the farmer probably less because his focus is on farming not gameplay) The farmer does however transfer it and does not spend it in the economy itself.
Very strange situation here.
Originally posted by Danovitche I had been tempted many times to buy the money to get the items I needed...
That is part of the problem. The perception of need...it's a game. You don't need to do anything.
Consider what happens in a game where farming and currency buying are commonplace. When you join a new party, people look over your kit and think "What's a level 53 character doing with level 42 shoulders... KICK". They do this becuase they know they can easily find a replacement with the latest and best gear. The only way to join parties is to either farm for that gear, or engage in currency trading. Hence once currency trading reaches a certain level in a game, many more people are forced to adopt it.
I have never brought ingame currency, despite easily being able to afford it. I resent games where the above situation occurs.
But that is the communities fault isn't it? There is no garentee that the best gear will actually help or not - the player with the better gear might be an idiot and get the party killed...over and over, the player with the lesser gear may be a superior player but does not have the time to dedicate to farming. Rather then judge players on performance, it is the "kicking" player who is creating the problem not the farmer. He is PENALIZED by his own community for not keep up.
Also it could be a design fault. Rather then focus on RPG elements we have a ton of games that focus strickly on level / loot / grind. So the pressure is on the community to "keep up" in a way. Some people do so by whatever means as we are seeing.
Im stunned, these games arent even worth their subscription rates. Some of you have very low standards for products you purchase. Theyre all everquest clones.
Originally posted by Huntn Lazy, want an advantage without working for it, don't have the time to get it legitimately, don't want to compete on a level playing field, you name it, cheating can be rationalized for a multitude of reasons. -Hunt'n
Rationalization, thats the key word.
Evil people rationalize their behavior, whatever the situation is.
People purchase currency online outisde of the games because they do not want to participate in the "time sink" aspect of the game. In offline games, people go and find the cheat codes and god modes and money cheats and stuff like that from numerous websites online, and in online games, people go and buy currency to achieve the same goal: that is, to play the game on their own terms, as they choose to define what "fun" means.
I don't buy currency, because I actually like the challenge of playing the game. But I do understand why people do it.
Originally posted by JMoney95 The main reason is, why spend 100 hours farming something boring as hell to buy an item when one can work for 1 hour at there job and buy it? And honestly people who claim they "earned" there money and that people who buy it aren't skilled etc, need to realize that farming ISNT HARD. It's just time consuming. I could run around a zone one shotting mobs to earn gold in WoW with my rogue for hundreds of hours, that takes zero skill, or I could work at my job for 1 hour and use that money to save me the time and boredom. I mean I CAN go kill things for a hundred hours, but why? It's so boring! It gives no satisfaction in the end, just alot of boredom that makes me wanna quit the game. I enjoy actually playing, not farming. I have bought currency, but legally through EVE's GTC system. Not from outside companies etc. I mean seriously, why spend 100 hours mining ore half afk to get 270 million isk when I could drop $30 for it? About an hours pay. I for one work fulltime, so my playtime is limited to pretty much weekends (work from 4pm til 3am, sleep at about 4-4:30am after I get home, wake up and do house things / errands during day). On weekends I can play all day. But why spend a month of my weekends mining when I can the money I made during my coffee breaks to get by all that boring crap and have fun? When MMO's actually start taking skill to play then people can say they worked hard for their money. Until then all they did was spent time doing boring shiat, games are to be fun, not to be work.
EDIT: Also games shouldnt be about competition, I dont care if some moron has better gear than me, I care that I am having fun, farming is NOT fun.
EDIT2: Also most good items in games are NODROP meaning you can't trade them, whoever looted them gets them, buying currency doesnt help you here. Al it helps is getting random toys / some gear, but not the best gear.
See, this person is rationalizing cheating. I wonder what other things he rationalizes.
Ok, you know somethings wrong with these games when someone compares real-world grinding (Work) to simulated grinding (MMO).
People purchase currency online outisde of the games because they do not want to participate in the "time sink" aspect of the game. In offline games, people go and find the cheat codes and god modes and money cheats and stuff like that from numerous websites online, and in online games, people go and buy currency to achieve the same goal: that is, to play the game on their own terms, as they choose to define what "fun" means.
I don't buy currency, because I actually like the challenge of playing the game. But I do understand why people do it.
We now live in a culture where cheating is ok, among other evils like stealing, murder and theft.
Originally posted by Huntn Lazy, want an advantage without working for it, don't have the time to get it legitimately, don't want to compete on a level playing field, you name it, cheating can be rationalized for a multitude of reasons. -Hunt'n
But isn't this a game to be enjoyed and have fun in? Don't most of us already work in real life jobs/school/families? Again I point this out because I believe it is a design problem.
The games are not focusing on gameplay instead just throwing lots of pretty grind games at us. There really is nothing RPG about MMORPG's in general.
The two newest games on the market are proof...D&DO and RFO. Both hollow games missing key aspects of truely good RPG gameplay.
The really good, fun, emersive parts are far and few between and usually cost the player alot of needless time WORKING rather then truely challenging them. There is nothing challenging about grinding.
There is a vast difference between working (grinding) and overcoming a challenge in a game.
Also LAZY and NOT HAVING TIME are two entirely different things. It is very unfair to lump them together.
Comments
I'll throw in my voice here too. I've bought currency for Lineage 2, World of Warcraft, Ive sold gametime codes for Eve Online ISK. I never regretted it, i'll do it again.
its funny when people call currency buyers "lazy" because they dont want to take part in the most mundane mechanics of an MMO which is farming. Meaning, sitting your fat ass at a computer..wasting the day away for hours as you link yourself into a virtual world stuffing your face full of caffiene and cheetohs so you can make virtual money. They hog resources lowbies could use for levelling and quests much like a typical currency farmer who ebays his earnings. The only difference here is, they dont sell their earnings..they spend it. Why is one right and the other wrong.
Meanwhile, the currency buyer is spending time with his/her family..working his career job for more hours then he would really like to.. taking care of home repairs, car repairs, helping other family members out with their lives etc. At the end of the day, they want to log in and have some fun so they drop the equivalent of a night out at the bar for a couple hundred K of gold, or hundred mill worth of ISK so they can jump in and skip slaughtering low level mobs (which ruins the game for lowbies who need these challenging mobs for their quests, levels etc.) and play the fun parts of the game without destroying hunting grounds by grinding low level areas for currency.
point being, people who dont buy currency are lazy irl and ruin the game just as badly as currency ebay sellers.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
That's a super easy one to answer.It's like why bot or cheat?Some people[alot]will do whatever it takes to get ahead.Only a handful of people play games for the self achievement or satisfaction.It's almost like there trying to impress someone ,maybe there friends at school or something i don't know.
Player's tend to treat the game like it's real life.They don't want to look gimp in game.I guess they get a complex if someone calls them gimp for wearing old gear or gear that isn't the +1 +2 elite gear.Alot of weak self concious people out there.
Everyone in the world has there own ideas on what they want out of a game,so don't expect virtual selling to go away ever.In fact ,what is happening,the games are starting to create there own virtual seller world to keep players from spending outside of game like on ebay or wherever.
This goes on in real life also.Just look at the new york yankees trying to buy there way to the titles rather than operate on a fair budget with the rest of the teams.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Razor made a good point, Game companies are pretty much inviting for this to happen by making it ridiculously boring to get gold. It may not necessarily be hard, but most of the times it's really boring. Find a better way for us to make gold instead of straight up grinding mobs or grinding through the same old crafting and you know what, you would see virtual sales go down by a lot. Of course they would still exist, there will always be the market for Virtual Trading, but it will be less.
To answer the question of where I bought it, was a 3rd party.
I also saw a mention of scams, your best bet is to check out a site that's well known. One that's well known is less likely to scam you, seeing as they have a reputation to uphold. I know a lot of currency sites use Paypal, check their rating to see how many successful transactions they've done. If they've done a lot, then you will feel more safe in the end. When I first went to buy money I was afraid of the same thing, but through a little investigating I felt comfortable in the end.
I understand there are too many people who hate us and think we are the bane of MMOs. Before you knock on me, just at least read my post, that's all I ask, and that's all we ask. Hear us out, don't judge us immediately without even knowning the full story. I'm not saying my opinion is the fact and that everyone who knocks Virtual Trading is an idiot, I'm just saying give us a chance and read into it first. You don't have to approve of what we do, but you don't have to cast us away like we are some sort of plague.
It's only cheating if it's against the rules of the game, not just because you don't like it. The person talking about buying ISK through timecards in eve IS NOT CHEATING, and all of you 'buying game cash is evil' types should stop accusing someome of cheating for playing a game by the rules. You keep harping on cheating and how it 'ruins the game', but when that's all you post your arguments go flat if it's not cheating. You can post on the trade boards on the official EVE forums to pay money for isk as long as you do it by buying a timecard and selling it to someome in-game for ISK, and if someome doesn't come through on their end of the bargain then GMs will intervene. It is behavior explicitly allowed by the people running the game.
What you're doing is more like complaining that someome is cheating in poker because they bluffed you, even though bluffing is within the rules.
It's only cheating if it's against the rules of the game, not just because you don't like it. The person talking about buying ISK through timecards in eve IS NOT CHEATING, and all of you 'buying game cash is evil' types should stop accusing someome of cheating for playing a game by the rules. You keep harping on cheating and how it 'ruins the game', but when that's all you post your arguments go flat if it's not cheating. You can post on the trade boards on the official EVE forums to pay money for isk as long as you do it by buying a timecard and selling it to someome in-game for ISK, and if someome doesn't come through on their end of the bargain then GMs will intervene. It is behavior explicitly allowed by the people running the game.
What you're doing is more like complaining that someome is cheating in poker because they bluffed you, even though bluffing is within the rules.
of course if the game designers have sanctioned money buying, i have no problem with it
when people play poker, many make they're own custom rules as they play...this is okay as long as everyone agrees to it in advance...what we have here is people agreeing to a set of rules, and then saying fuck this...i don't like these rules so i'm gonna play the way i like...this is okay in a solo game where it affects no one like when you get a cheat code to play your solo fps or solo rpg game...but don't tell me people don't get higher gear and then in a pvp game use it to kill people...or in pve game use their "bought" power to gain a unique item that they would have not been able to achieve without their stronger gear
if what you say about eve is true...then of course its okay...but in the games i've played...money buying is against the rules...thus cheating
So are you going to apologize to the guy you accused of cheating for your false accusation? You certainly seemed to have a problem with it before.
Actually, what we have here is people agreeing to a set of rules, then you saying 'I don't like these rules, therefore you're cheating for playing by them.'
Rant all you want about people cheating, but buying ISK using timecards is NOT CHEATING in EVE.
After playing COH I wanted to play a new game and have a great adventure.
At that point I was in denial about grind and the reality that mmorpgs using it are boring unethical tricks designed to hook players with the promise of good things that barely happen. It's just capitalist crap.
All of the stuff that people talk about regarding "achievements" and "work" is not real, but rather you being a sucker. Think about it.
You aren't achieving anything, mosting because you're following a set mathematically defined path. So, that's your big accomplishment. That's why bots can do just as well as you. No thinking or strategy required!
Anyway, having realized this at the end of COH I decided to buy Lineage II and see how that was. Frankly, I was shocked at the truly heinous grind and massive expense of useful items. So, I decided to buy some gold.
I had a nice sum of money in my paypal account and ended up getting 20 million!
Well that bought me very little and didn't help too much with advancement. So, I ended up quitting the game
In the end, I know that I will never spend money on "gold" again, because it's a hustle, that makes money off of another hustle (the game).
After playing L2 since last Sept at a casual pace and having a huge focus on the market (I also had about a 5 or 6 week break in there around the holidays) So far I have only made level 42. I could have been much much higher by now. I am in a guild and we have a guild hall which provides buff. This makes leveling extreamly easy even at my level. Granted I did bring 2 alts up to level 30 which took a chunk of time (but the classes and races just look and play so damn good) All of my character have top or close to top grade gear.
I am homegrown no bought currency or boting. (something that is NOT that rare, most players are on the level) But all that time I spent selling I could have spent "playing" the game. Yes, the selling is part of the game but because of the cost of much of the gear a gigantic amount of time is needed.
In hindsight, I really didn't enjoy doing the market all that much. Yeah I met a lot of people, had some good laughs, but all I was really doing was sitting around chatting while the rest of my guild did raids and seiges. (my guild offered me money several time, everyone is in the level 60-70 range, but I refused because I wanted to do it myself)
So yeah, I was tempted a few time to say screw it and just drop 20 bucks on 10 million or so adena. Really just to save some time. (wow bro, you got 20 million? thats a huge amount of money!) I not giving up L2. IMHO its a fantastic game, open seemless world, player driven economy (for better or worse) , risk / reward, and consequence of action. (although open PvsP. there are consequences to your actions) Its far from perfect but I like it.
What I am see here, based on the replies is that the players who are buying currency DO have a valid arguement. I have always held the position that forced GRIND / FARMING adds NOTHING to the game at all. It contributes NOTHING to the RPG experience. It just takes up time.
Razorback (in the post about the chinenes farmers, BTW not all Asian players are farmers, there are far more Asians playing MMORPGs then westerners so please be careful about stereotyping and descriminating) seems to have hit the nail on the head. If game designers continue to produce all these games with crappy gameplay...you will continue to see this problem I guess. At least until some dev team out there collectively "grabs their nuts" and adds some RPG to these games.
*Everyone who did share their experience of buying currency and stuff with us so far, thanks for your openess and shareing your views with us!
That took alot of courage
It is fun to work for a loot drop... it is fun to work for skill .... it is not fun to also have to make money to buy items that you can get no other way and that you could easily get if you were wiling to put off playing the game as you like just to make money to buy the item.
That said, it is rewarding to play a game with crafting like the crafting that went on in Pre-CU SWG. WoW has no crafting like that, nothing to be proud of, no player cities, no player vendors, and no difference in the resources or items made so the games crafting side sucks.
I dont see why anyone but a farmer would care to make money in WoW, so for me it is easier and lets me play the game if I just go buy from a farmer.
In SWG before LAE and SOE ruined it, I had a lot of harvestors, vendors, and I crafted a lot so I made plenty of money. It was rewarding to me in that system so entertaining and I didn't feel a need to buy "digital credits."
"SWG was a world, now it's just a game" -adamrk-
"When the game was good, you didn't have to ask where the population was, because it was everywhere. When the game was good you didn't have to ask which server had population, because they all did. When the game was good you didn't have to beg friends to give it a try, because they were already playing. " - Salty Pete
It is much different to "work" for a goal like crafting or building in game then it is to grind mindlessly isn't it?
Lets look at some of the mechanics of the old SWG real fast. (it really is a shame what they did to that game) Aren't "harvesters" just afk farmers in some sense? Aren't vendors afk shops? (lord I WISH they had vendors in L2, life would be perfect then
)
AND, what is the difference between me taking money from my clan rather then buying it? Wouldn't I still acquire the currence either way? My guild gets an insane amount of drops a week doing raids. (when I want to drool, I just look in our guild vault) They have offered me 5 and 10 million to help get me leveling along faster. So what would be the difference if I took that money (earned through high level raid / crafting profits and high level grinding by guildmates) or buying currency? Wouldn't you still "unfairly" acquire the currency? You still don't "work" for it. The only real difference is I don't give out RL cash for it. Of course you could say I did "work" for it in the sense that I interacted enough to earn the trust and friendship of other players ingame.
I am almost 100% ALL of us have recieved funds and/or gear ingame from other players as gifts. So...what is the difference? (aside from the RL cash?)
Is taking gifts of cash and items from other players the same as buying currency? (mechanically speaking) - For example when I started playing DAoC a few years back I had some RL friends who had been playing for awhile and had Level 50 characters. As soon as I logged into the game my buddy handed me 200 gold. In DAoC 200 gold is a ton of money at low levels.
Did I cheat? and if not, how is that different from buying currency?
Just questions and food for thought.
With the currenty player scamoconomy ... sorry "Economy" I needed the money.
I had been tempted many times to buy the money to get the items I needed...
Time was something I did not have at that time, nor the ability to earn money fast...
I dont like to grind money for 11-40 hours just to buy a few items....
I plan to buy again in order to get my epic mount... Time is still something I dont have.
Real life makes way to much of a mess for me to play more then 2 hours a day at night time.
"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys.
Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Here is another way to look at it for those who think buying currency os soooo bad.
Have you ever received money from a friend?
Have you ever received an item from a friend?
The only difference in those two compared to buying it is that the guy who gave it to me received something in return. In BOTH cases money was received that was not "earned" as they like to say, so if you think buying money is cheating, so is receiving ANY gifts or money from friends.
Money was farmed in both cases, by someone other than me or you, then we received it.
And for those who think it "ruins the economy", it doesnt destroy it anymore than some guy who can play all day farming gold. And it doesnt ruin it anymore than the morons who set there prices in auctions sky high. The only way it would ruin the economy is if the money was duped / created, not farmed.
If you think does, then instead of me playing 1 hour a day and buying 100 gold differ in ruining the economy than if I played 10 hours a day and farmed 100 gold? 100 gold is mine, in the same time frame, how does me farming it in 10 hours NOT ruin the economy but me playing for 1 hour and buying it does? This is in a 24 hour period.
Consider what happens in a game where farming and currency buying are commonplace. When you join a new party, people look over your kit and think "What's a level 53 character doing with level 42 shoulders... KICK". They do this becuase they know they can easily find a replacement with the latest and best gear. The only way to join parties is to either farm for that gear, or engage in currency trading. Hence once currency trading reaches a certain level in a game, many more people are forced to adopt it.
I have never brought ingame currency, despite easily being able to afford it. I resent games where the above situation occurs.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Now consider what happens when you buy money from farmers. These farmers wouldn't even bother playing the game unless there was a market, so by purchasing money in this way you are effectively introducing new money into the economy. Result - inflation. With more money around, prices go up, making it harder for other people to afford stuff (meaning they either have to buy or farm for longer.) In a game with large amount of currency buying, players who don't want to buy currency are forced to farm to compete not just with other players, but also to compete with the professional farmers who are supplying their rivals. No wonder it can get boring...
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Now consider what happens when you buy money from farmers. These farmers wouldn't even bother playing the game unless there was a market, so by purchasing money in this way you are effectively introducing new money into the economy. Result - inflation. With more money around, prices go up, making it harder for other people to afford stuff (meaning they either have to buy or farm for longer.) In a game with large amount of currency buying, players who don't want to buy currency are forced to farm to compete not just with other players, but also to compete with the professional farmers who are supplying their rivals. No wonder it can get boring...
Not true. The money may have just sat in his inventory doing nothing. Many players in WoW that have all epics don't have anything to spend cash on. No money is beig introduced. The prices aren't the fault of the people buying, it's the fault of players charging. Keep the SELL prices reasonable and it will never be a problem, but most MMO players are retarded and charge sky high prices for crap. My 60 rogue in WoW had all BoE gear, and epic mount, only thing I ever had to buy was repairs, potions and food, trivial cheap items. Rest of my money just kept stockpiling.
Also the question was what is the difference between me playing 1 hour a day and buying 100 gold, or me playing 10 hours a day and farming 100 gold. Same amount of money for me, same time frame. So you are saying that people who play enough to farm money ruin the economy? I sure as hell havent bought more money than half the players can farm in the time frame I use it in.
There is no difference, you either have to admit that farming ruins the economy, which throws out your that whole arguement, disappear from the thread, or try to justify how farming 100 gold in a 24 hour period is different than buying 100 gold in the same period. You gonna try and say that it's different? That if I logged on for one hour in one day and bought 100 gold is different than me logging in for 10 hours in one day and farming 100 gold?
The truth, which people like you will probably never admit too, is that people who buy currency (not insane amounts here, I'm talking small, how MOST buyers do it, MOST don't go spend $300 on 50,000 gold to be cool, most would do it at 1k gold or less, Around $50.) don't affect the economy anymore than the people who play alot, and farm loads of cash.
At certain points life has been so stressful that I didn't quite know what to do with myself.
Anyway, can you imagine just how unappealing it is to be massively poor in a GAME having to do the same thing over and over working to produce "items" that aren't that good to begin with?
That's what most adults do in real life.
That's why mmorpgs won't catch on with most adults any time soon. It's mostly young people that haven't yet realized that life can be a mirror of some of these games. Trust me, that realization is demoralizing.
There's nothing more sad that seeing a town square in in Lineage II filled with people sitting around waiting to make a buck. In fact, that game should have an "obesity" setting that allows your character to get dramatically out of shape from inactivity.
My belief is that older people would be attracted to a game that had drama and a sense of urgency to the story. There's no reason to kill a thousand "bugbears" and it's frustrating to gather "swamp dust" and 50 other things just to make a pair of gloves. No one that has a complex life wants to do this and I believe it especially true that no one with a stressful life wants to FAIL at it.
Many of these games promise fun and don't deliver and that's why people cheat.
No - there is a very clear difference. Suppose your friend hadn't given you the money. The money would still exist in the world. Chances are he would have spent it on something else. The game world is pretty much unchanged.
Now consider what happens when you buy money from farmers. These farmers wouldn't even bother playing the game unless there was a market, so by purchasing money in this way you are effectively introducing new money into the economy. Result - inflation. With more money around, prices go up, making it harder for other people to afford stuff (meaning they either have to buy or farm for longer.) In a game with large amount of currency buying, players who don't want to buy currency are forced to farm to compete not just with other players, but also to compete with the professional farmers who are supplying their rivals. No wonder it can get boring...
But does it have a real impact on the economy or is it just perceved that way? Think about the mechanics of farming. Someone goes out and kills the mobs and takes the cash. Something the farmer or any other player would do anyway.
The player might save up for a 1000gp mount. The farmer will sell his 1000gp. End result....both farm, both use the money, both have spent roughly an equal amount of time ingame. (the farmer probably less because his focus is on farming not gameplay) The farmer does however transfer it and does not spend it in the economy itself.
Very strange situation here.
That is part of the problem. The perception of need...it's a game. You don't need to do anything.
Consider what happens in a game where farming and currency buying are commonplace. When you join a new party, people look over your kit and think "What's a level 53 character doing with level 42 shoulders... KICK". They do this becuase they know they can easily find a replacement with the latest and best gear. The only way to join parties is to either farm for that gear, or engage in currency trading. Hence once currency trading reaches a certain level in a game, many more people are forced to adopt it.
I have never brought ingame currency, despite easily being able to afford it. I resent games where the above situation occurs.
But that is the communities fault isn't it? There is no garentee that the best gear will actually help or not - the player with the better gear might be an idiot and get the party killed...over and over, the player with the lesser gear may be a superior player but does not have the time to dedicate to farming. Rather then judge players on performance, it is the "kicking" player who is creating the problem not the farmer. He is PENALIZED by his own community for not keep up.
Also it could be a design fault. Rather then focus on RPG elements we have a ton of games that focus strickly on level / loot / grind. So the pressure is on the community to "keep up" in a way. Some people do so by whatever means as we are seeing.
Rationalization, thats the key word.
Evil people rationalize their behavior, whatever the situation is.
People purchase currency online outisde of the games because they do not want to participate in the "time sink" aspect of the game. In offline games, people go and find the cheat codes and god modes and money cheats and stuff like that from numerous websites online, and in online games, people go and buy currency to achieve the same goal: that is, to play the game on their own terms, as they choose to define what "fun" means.
I don't buy currency, because I actually like the challenge of playing the game. But I do understand why people do it.
See, this person is rationalizing cheating. I wonder what other things he rationalizes.
Ok, you know somethings wrong with these games when someone compares real-world grinding (Work) to simulated grinding (MMO).
But isn't this a game to be enjoyed and have fun in? Don't most of us already work in real life jobs/school/families? Again I point this out because I believe it is a design problem.
The games are not focusing on gameplay instead just throwing lots of pretty grind games at us. There really is nothing RPG about MMORPG's in general.
The two newest games on the market are proof...D&DO and RFO. Both hollow games missing key aspects of truely good RPG gameplay.
The really good, fun, emersive parts are far and few between and usually cost the player alot of needless time WORKING rather then truely challenging them. There is nothing challenging about grinding.
There is a vast difference between working (grinding) and overcoming a challenge in a game.
Also LAZY and NOT HAVING TIME are two entirely different things. It is very unfair to lump them together.