Here is my 2 cents on this subject, I played a lot of mmo's over the past years, so naturally you will experienced good things and bad things in MMORPGs. Things like ganging or kill stealing (KS) not so much in today's mmo, or my favorite they killed you just because they are high level than you. Anyone who played Lineage 2 would know what I mean. Most mmo games will have PvP tac on is due to 2 reasons I would imagine.
First thing they add PvP as a supplement to lack of end game content if said game company don't want to invest in more content for said game. Second by adding PvP feature to grab as many players into their game as possible which in my opinion is a bad idea. It's like putting wolves into a den of rabbits is as good idea as a free meal pass. Perhaps that the number one reason why MMORPG game failed is that they allow wolves into a forest of cute and peace loving bunny which will be slaughter in the next few months.
At this point you can only imagine what kind of nightmare will be for a new mmo game would allow open pvp anywhere in the open world? The wolves will pretty much kills any who step into the server, which will of course, kills the game faster than a warp drive. That's why none of those games ever make it to the mainstream, simply due to DoA. Unlike the wolves analogy, the PvPer I should say are even more destructive in a PvE games. People in PvE games like to help other and forge new friendship to do and build bigger things, while the PvPer would love to go around killing and destroying everything they touch. PvPer love to see ppl suffering and destroy all their hard work. Its fun for a while but once you have to rebuild or die for the 20x time you want to rage quit fast.
In my opinion, PvE players can not coexist with PvPer within the same space unless the whole game revolve around wolves eating cute loving bunny's (PvE players). For anyone suggested that game companies to just make games for only PvE or PvP games. But then the PvPer would love to argue they only like to PvP in a PvE game cause other wise, they can't slaughter the cute bunny's if the game don't include PvP feature within a PvE game. The lot would say what about dueling, its not the same for the psychopathy hungry wolves would only enjoy themselves at the expense of other suffering that's the way how I see it, experienced, and see how it went down in all the mmo's that I played. Not to say, there are surviving PvE mmo games out there but those game aren't focus on the player's character. I believe for a successful PvE game have to be more focus on the character the player had created but that's another thing altogether.
It's the lack of PvE options who keep players away. Most PvP players play MOBAs these days. If you want a PvP game to succeed, it has to be PvE friendly...basically they have to make what I call a PvX game.
KOS PvP is a no, no. Also in a MMORPG even if you like PvP sometimes you want some time to chill and do something else (AKA PvE) which most PvP games lack.
Sorry, but what I'm reading here is "it's the lack of pve options that keep 'me' away ..."
What about the pvp players who don't like pve?
I would consider myself a pvp player who has no interest in mobas. I'd prefer it in an mmorpg. "prefer".
However, there are so many toxic people infesting these games that it makes it "not worth it".
These days if it's got PvP, it's almost always non-consensual. You can gank them anytime you want. Sure, some of them limit you to "the other factions", or "not in the sanctuary city, maybe", but out in the actual game world, it's pretty much kill others.
Now if it's a PvE player, that pretty much screws them over. They don't want PvP, or at least not now, they've probably got to gather a bunch of resources for some stupid crafting thing or whatever.
Now let's see what happens when you put PvP and PvE together.
If non-consensual PvP is available, the PvP ganks the PvE, thus wrecking the PvEers day.
If consensual only PvP is the rule, the PvPer can't gank the PvEer, and so goes finds someone that's actually PvP to go kill. Nothing bad happens to anyone.
PvPers complaining about PvEers is like a Mass Shooter complaining about some unarmed grocery shopper wearing a bullet proof vest.
As someone said, you can't code empathy into a game, empathy comes from people. People are the core of the problem -- people who don't care about how other people feel, don't realize that PKing noobs or players at much lower levels isn't like taking out a pawn in a chess match or even winning the whole chess match against a worthy opponent.
BTW, I think Batman would be happy to be able to be Bruce Wayne all the time, but even if the Joker and all the rest were put behind bars or killed each other, new villains would always rise. The Joker, however, would probably still be laughing and looking for something else to destroy if he managed to reduce Batman and all of Gotham to smoking ashes.
I remember when City of Heroes was in Beta, there were already people wanting to be villains and figuring out ways they could lead team members into suicide missions and then hang back and watch them all die. When they expanded to include City of Villains, there were complaints that their territory was already run-down, dark and gloomy -- they wanted to destroy a bright, shiny town!
Oh, hey, perhaps we should just look at the popularity of Grand Theft Auto?
In the real world, evil deeds have nasty consequences -- and look how many people still do evil things! Plus there's all those things that give you a kick, thrill, hit, trip, or just push that button in your brain that makes you feel good... and want more. These often lead to the most tragic consequences, and we all know that... but look at how popular they are, too.
In the virtual world of games, slaughtering a player character that isn't close to being a match to yours can give a lot of people pleasure, apparently, and what's the consequences? Well, those CAN be designed into a game. Don't some games have a Karma system? It seems to me something like that would be fairly easy to implement. I'm not saying it would be a breeze, but it shouldn't be a monumental task. I seem to have heard, though, that players tend to find ways to exploit systems like that, too.
But mostly it's just sad that so many players seem to want to be like the Joker, and actually enjoy turning beautiful things into garbage, encountering someone enjoying their first experience learning to play a role in a new virtual world and killing their avatar easily... and killing him again when he comes looking for the loot he dropped... and then hunting him down and killing him again as he respawns and tries to find adventure in the opposite direction. Sick, sick, evil people.
Returning to the comic book theme and CoH/CoV, I was disappointed that people didn't seem to understand or just didn't want to play the way comic book villains usually "play" (or used to, before things like "The Killing Joke" came out). I think Dr. Doom is the perfect example -- he could cause far more damage than he has, could have killed all sorts of heroes right off the bat, etc. But he's complex, and he has his pride, he's not going to harm a fly if it's not bothering him or in his way. He even has his own sense of morality and righteousness, words that I wonder if a lot of people today have heard very often, or believe in even if they have.
Even the villains that didn't have such scruples simply wouldn't deign to kill a hero or someone if they didn't need to -- not worth the effort, it would imply they were afraid to give them another chance, they wanted the victim to live in order to "give a message" to someone else, etc.
People just don't seem to appreciate finesse, style, or even the grand old showmanship of years gone by. Pro wrestling used to have such wonderful, bigger-than-life characters, then D generation X came along and ever since it's just been a bunch of vile, mean-spirited punks, with a few exceptions.
Oh well, I'm really rambling now and this is too long and with all the other comments probably nobody will see it anyway.
LMFAO .. the smart kids dont bring there feelings to internet ... It is no place for feelings ..
I'm curious, why? You know feelings is a very personal property. Who's to say where you shall or shan't take it?
I don't care about other people's feelings. I offend a lot of people, and I tell them I don't care if they are hurt. But I never, ever, blame them for feeling hurt or in your case, having feelings altogether.
I don't know. Maybe you're right, apparently it is no place for logic as well.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I personally like pvp. Mostly because you will "learn" the AI pretty quickly. "Every forth attack will be this" or "the respawn is 5 minutes and they spawn over there" or "if I stand this close he will do that move with that tell, so if I dodge away but come back before the animation is finished he won't be able to hit me and he will keep using the same attack." pvp is unpredictable you have to keep on your toes. Act, react and adapt.
To me however I see also that the anonymously of the web has become a big problem. Noob bashen, griefing, trolling and toxicity plague pvp servers of any game. If you make a small mistake during a moba match, all your "teammates" start yelling at you how you should delete game and what a horrible Noob you are. In survival games you can pick up a rock before a group of end game players comes rushing in and one shotting you.
We lost the idea of "let's have fun together." somewhere along the way. It has been ages when I lost to a pvp fight only to be contacted by the guy stating "whoaw nice fight man, almost got me there. What skills did you use that dealt x mount of damage." or if I said in a shooter "hiya guys I'm new" they would respond with actually giving me tip and tricks. the anonymous internet gave us a place to be a complete asshole way to easy and even rewarded us for it.
I personally like pvp. Mostly because you will "learn" the AI pretty quickly. "Every forth attack will be this" or "the respawn is 5 minutes and they spawn over there" or "if I stand this close he will do that move with that tell, so if I dodge away but come back before the animation is finished he won't be able to hit me and he will keep using the same attack." pvp is unpredictable you have to keep on your toes. Act, react and adapt.
To me however I see also that the anonymously of the web has become a big problem. Noob bashen, griefing, trolling and toxicity plague pvp servers of any game. If you make a small mistake during a moba match, all your "teammates" start yelling at you how you should delete game and what a horrible Noob you are. In survival games you can pick up a rock before a group of end game players comes rushing in and one shotting you.
We lost the idea of "let's have fun together." somewhere along the way. It has been ages when I lost to a pvp fight only to be contacted by the guy stating "whoaw nice fight man, almost got me there. What skills did you use that dealt x mount of damage." or if I said in a shooter "hiya guys I'm new" they would respond with actually giving me tip and tricks. the anonymous internet gave us a place to be a complete asshole way to easy and even rewarded us for it.
To the point of your first paragraph: that isn't a hard fix to implement for PvE content. Without procedurally generating the entire dungeon, it wouldn't be that hard to implement numerous spawn points and types and have the encounter choose at random. Would that fix the AI learning problem?
I often see comments about kids not knowing how to lose anymore. I never imagined so many MMORPGers were experts on modern education and child rearing. If this article proved one thing it was that I was wrong, pvp doesnt need more empathy, the world does.
I think it was Torval who mentioned sportsmanship, that is what PvP needs. But empathy, unless we do not mean the same thing by that word or its application to PvP then no, definitely not.
Empathy? if you have hurt feelings from playing in a PVP game then honestly you need help. Games are not reality, if a game is affecting your emotional stability then you really have to sit back and discuss that with someone who can help you.
Empathy? if you have hurt feelings from playing in a PVP game then honestly you need help. Games are not reality, if a game is affecting your emotional stability then you really have to sit back and discuss that with someone who can help you.
It is pretty normal to have hurt feelings upon losing a game--doesn't matter if it's a video game or any other type of game.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
LMFAO .. the smart kids dont bring there feelings to internet ... It is no place for feelings ..
I'm curious, why? You know feelings is a very personal property. Who's to say where you shall or shan't take it?
I don't care about other people's feelings. I offend a lot of people, and I tell them I don't care if they are hurt. But I never, ever, blame them for feeling hurt or in your case, having feelings altogether.
I don't know. Maybe you're right, apparently it is no place for logic as well.
Really , this needs an explanation ...
Because ........... No one is accountable on the internet.......
because people speak with ambiguity.......
Because ... unlike In-Person encounters , people act completly different on the internet than they normally due (in most instances) . wether postivley or negativley.
Because... your feelings are your personal property , one should be logical enough to not let people on the ineternet who dont give a fuck about you the ability to manipulate your feelings ...(leave that for people who matter in your RL)
Because ... It cant be healthy to let any of the above to effect your life (emotionally), Knowing full well what you are logging into ..
Its equivalent to owning two very large dogs , and going into your back yard to play(without cleaning up first) and stepping in shit and getting upset by it .. Guess what the dogs dont care , and you knew when you went in there this could happen and yet you still let yourself get upset ..
The internet is your yard and full of shit , so either clean up( block and filter) of get shit on and cry ..
LMFAO .. the smart kids dont bring there feelings to internet ... It is no place for feelings ..
I'm curious, why? You know feelings is a very personal property. Who's to say where you shall or shan't take it?
I don't care about other people's feelings. I offend a lot of people, and I tell them I don't care if they are hurt. But I never, ever, blame them for feeling hurt or in your case, having feelings altogether.
I don't know. Maybe you're right, apparently it is no place for logic as well.
Really , this needs an explanation ...
Because ........... No one is accountable on the internet.......
because people speak with ambiguity.......
Because ... unlike In-Person encounters , people act completly different on the internet than they normally due (in most instances) . wether postivley or negativley.
Because... your feelings are your personal property , one should be logical enough to not let people on the ineternet who dont give a fuck about you the ability to manipulate your feelings ...(leave that for people who matter in your RL)
Because ... It cant be healthy to let any of the above to effect your life (emotionally), Knowing full well what you are logging into ..
Its equivalent to owning two very large dogs , and going into your back yard to play(without cleaning up first) and stepping in shit and getting upset by it .. Guess what the dogs dont care , and you knew when you went in there this could happen and yet you still let yourself get upset ..
The internet is your yard and full of shit , so either clean up( block and filter) of get shit on and cry ..
Internet and real-life have merged a long time ago. Where do you draw the line? If your wife sends you an email you won't get emotional because it is not real? Does her words have to be in person to affect you? Maybe you say you shouldn't let your emotions get affected by strangers. So if a stranger comes to you and offends you in the worst way possible you'd say hey I don't know you so I don't care? Perhaps you do, and I'm not saying you shouldn't. By all means, I am the same. But it doesn't make the stranger's rudeness okay. Nor if you got upset over it meant you're the one with a problem.
You talk about cleaning up, but you're not cleaning anything up. You're just ignoring the problem. Yes we know the internet is filled with filth, that's why we're having this discussion. The means to clean that filth. And you know, it's alright to clean your back yard once in a while, because the smell of shit would get into your house, it could bring all sorts of disease to the rest of the household as well. It is true the back yard is outside of your house, but it is still attached to your house, in some sort of a immediate matter.
You're right about the whole "ignorance is a bliss" attitude, just don't try to sell it as something else. Because ignorance has never solved anything, ever, period.
And why stop here? Let's expand your solution to other problems the world is facing now. If everyone could just don't let racism hurt their feelings... you know.. why let a racist manipulate your feelings? You should leave your feelings for the ones who matter to you IRL.
You know funny thing is I am one of those people who'd get affected by almost nothing IRL, let alone on the net. But that in no way gives me the right to judge someone for getting upset over a person being a jerk to them. It doesn't matter if it's on the web, it is still pretty much real. Of course it is better not to get upset, but still doesn't make the offender any right. I'm not a fan of PC or SJW movements--I'd leave the reasons for that for another day--but your attitude is allowing the internet to become a worse place everyday. It is the new millennia version of the macho culture of "feelings are for sissies".
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
PvP in a sport setting deserves sportsmanship. PvP in a “war” setting deserves passion.
As as far as the whole “What happens when one side dominates” question... I’m interested to see how Crowfall’s attempt to address that works out.
Edit to add: I also think folks have gotten off on a tangent about whether people should be dicks to each other. Obviously that answer is no. But that’s very different from the original question about having “empathy” for the other side in PvP.
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The empathy I spoke of was consideration for the gameplay experience of your opponent. PVP isnt a sport, its a conflict simulation. Non combat sports are a tribal challenge vaguely calling back to combat. PVP is more like a combat sport (MMA or BJJ) where you simulate death to an enemy, but go watch some UFC. Great empathy is almost always shown with a glove touch before and a hug after the sim. Few actual wars ended with total anihiation of an enemy, most end in a treaty and reset of terms. This is where devs and players are failing.
In my example the Imps could have literally messaged the rebels and came up woth some scenarios to help them enjoy the pvp again-saving the server and preserving their own enjoyment. Their lack of empathy for the Rebels gameplay experience damned themselves as well. Of course those terms should have included some sacrifices from those Rebels and global admition of the superiority of the Empire elite!
TLDR; Be considerate. Use that golden rule (not that new one, the original one).
I’d simply point out that I think you are mistaken in placing the blame on the players. The blame falls on the developers for crafting a game around a war where there is no contingency for one side winning.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Most pvp games I couldn't compete so I would just stand there and let the otehr person kill me.... Sometimes I would encounter someone that said "hey you're not fighting back" and they would stop, but 90%+ would usually just kill a defenseless player.
LMFAO .. the smart kids dont bring there feelings to internet ... It is no place for feelings ..
I'm curious, why? You know feelings is a very personal property. Who's to say where you shall or shan't take it?
I don't care about other people's feelings. I offend a lot of people, and I tell them I don't care if they are hurt. But I never, ever, blame them for feeling hurt or in your case, having feelings altogether.
I don't know. Maybe you're right, apparently it is no place for logic as well.
Really , this needs an explanation ...
Because ........... No one is accountable on the internet.......
because people speak with ambiguity.......
Because ... unlike In-Person encounters , people act completly different on the internet than they normally due (in most instances) . wether postivley or negativley.
Because... your feelings are your personal property , one should be logical enough to not let people on the ineternet who dont give a fuck about you the ability to manipulate your feelings ...(leave that for people who matter in your RL)
Because ... It cant be healthy to let any of the above to effect your life (emotionally), Knowing full well what you are logging into ..
Its equivalent to owning two very large dogs , and going into your back yard to play(without cleaning up first) and stepping in shit and getting upset by it .. Guess what the dogs dont care , and you knew when you went in there this could happen and yet you still let yourself get upset ..
The internet is your yard and full of shit , so either clean up( block and filter) of get shit on and cry ..
Internet and real-life have merged a long time ago. Where do you draw the line? If your wife sends you an email you won't get emotional because it is not real? Does her words have to be in person to affect you? Maybe you say you shouldn't let your emotions get affected by strangers. So if a stranger comes to you and offends you in the worst way possible you'd say hey I don't know you so I don't care? Perhaps you do, and I'm not saying you shouldn't. By all means, I am the same. But it doesn't make the stranger's rudeness okay. Nor if you got upset over it meant you're the one with a problem.
You talk about cleaning up, but you're not cleaning anything up. You're just ignoring the problem. Yes we know the internet is filled with filth, that's why we're having this discussion. The means to clean that filth. And you know, it's alright to clean your back yard once in a while, because the smell of shit would get into your house, it could bring all sorts of disease to the rest of the household as well. It is true the back yard is outside of your house, but it is still attached to your house, in some sort of a immediate matter.
You're right about the whole "ignorance is a bliss" attitude, just don't try to sell it as something else. Because ignorance has never solved anything, ever, period.
And why stop here? Let's expand your solution to other problems the world is facing now. If everyone could just don't let racism hurt their feelings... you know.. why let a racist manipulate your feelings? You should leave your feelings for the ones who matter to you IRL.
You know funny thing is I am one of those people who'd get affected by almost nothing IRL, let alone on the net. But that in no way gives me the right to judge someone for getting upset over a person being a jerk to them. It doesn't matter if it's on the web, it is still pretty much real. Of course it is better not to get upset, but still doesn't make the offender any right. I'm not a fan of PC or SJW movements--I'd leave the reasons for that for another day--but your attitude is allowing the internet to become a worse place everyday. It is the new millennia version of the macho culture of "feelings are for sissies".
A wall of silly here ..
1st...No kidding if my wife sends me an email .. LOl really ..Dismissed .. not applicable ..Of course emotion is involved its my wife .. Not some stranger on the internet ...."You gotta Keep Em Seperated"
The problem here is learning to seperate RL from internet .. Do you really have the same emotion invested in my comments as your wifes .. Get a grip
2nd.. This yard the (Internet) cannot be cleaned by anyone ...EVER ..so either learn to block and filter or get shit on and cry .. simple as that ..
Again your 3rd example does not apply and a desperate reach to make a point .. Thats a helluva road to travel and connect racism in RL .. Emails from your wife .. to the comments from the likes of JoeI8yermomma44271.. to try an make a point about the lack of empathy on the internet .. Where once again .. NOONE is accountable .. Nothing will change .
You are accountable to your wife and have an emotional interest to begin with i would think ... And of course Racism is am emotional issue for all (im an American Indian) And your accountable for your actions for or against Racism in RL .. so there it matters .. Here .. YOU have NO Idea at all if someone is telling you the TRUTH positivley or Negativley relative to an issue like Racism here .. SO why would you take any of it to heart and hurt your Feelings over it ..
Check your feelings at the door when you log on ..
Not to mention what we are discussing here is Empathy in GAming ..
LMFAO .. the smart kids dont bring there feelings to internet ... It is no place for feelings ..
I'm curious, why? You know feelings is a very personal property. Who's to say where you shall or shan't take it?
I don't care about other people's feelings. I offend a lot of people, and I tell them I don't care if they are hurt. But I never, ever, blame them for feeling hurt or in your case, having feelings altogether.
I don't know. Maybe you're right, apparently it is no place for logic as well.
Really , this needs an explanation ...
Because ........... No one is accountable on the internet.......
because people speak with ambiguity.......
Because ... unlike In-Person encounters , people act completly different on the internet than they normally due (in most instances) . wether postivley or negativley.
Because... your feelings are your personal property , one should be logical enough to not let people on the ineternet who dont give a fuck about you the ability to manipulate your feelings ...(leave that for people who matter in your RL)
Because ... It cant be healthy to let any of the above to effect your life (emotionally), Knowing full well what you are logging into ..
Its equivalent to owning two very large dogs , and going into your back yard to play(without cleaning up first) and stepping in shit and getting upset by it .. Guess what the dogs dont care , and you knew when you went in there this could happen and yet you still let yourself get upset ..
The internet is your yard and full of shit , so either clean up( block and filter) of get shit on and cry ..
Internet and real-life have merged a long time ago. Where do you draw the line? If your wife sends you an email you won't get emotional because it is not real? Does her words have to be in person to affect you? Maybe you say you shouldn't let your emotions get affected by strangers. So if a stranger comes to you and offends you in the worst way possible you'd say hey I don't know you so I don't care? Perhaps you do, and I'm not saying you shouldn't. By all means, I am the same. But it doesn't make the stranger's rudeness okay. Nor if you got upset over it meant you're the one with a problem.
You talk about cleaning up, but you're not cleaning anything up. You're just ignoring the problem. Yes we know the internet is filled with filth, that's why we're having this discussion. The means to clean that filth. And you know, it's alright to clean your back yard once in a while, because the smell of shit would get into your house, it could bring all sorts of disease to the rest of the household as well. It is true the back yard is outside of your house, but it is still attached to your house, in some sort of a immediate matter.
You're right about the whole "ignorance is a bliss" attitude, just don't try to sell it as something else. Because ignorance has never solved anything, ever, period.
And why stop here? Let's expand your solution to other problems the world is facing now. If everyone could just don't let racism hurt their feelings... you know.. why let a racist manipulate your feelings? You should leave your feelings for the ones who matter to you IRL.
You know funny thing is I am one of those people who'd get affected by almost nothing IRL, let alone on the net. But that in no way gives me the right to judge someone for getting upset over a person being a jerk to them. It doesn't matter if it's on the web, it is still pretty much real. Of course it is better not to get upset, but still doesn't make the offender any right. I'm not a fan of PC or SJW movements--I'd leave the reasons for that for another day--but your attitude is allowing the internet to become a worse place everyday. It is the new millennia version of the macho culture of "feelings are for sissies".
A wall of silly here ..
1st...No kidding if my wife sends me an email .. LOl really ..Dismissed .. not applicable ..Of course emotion is involved its my wife .. Not some stranger on the internet ...."You gotta Keep Em Seperated"
The problem here is learning to seperate RL from internet .. Do you really have the same emotion invested in my comments as your wifes .. Get a grip
2nd.. This yard the (Internet) cannot be cleaned by anyone ...EVER ..so either learn to block and filter or get shit on and cry .. simple as that ..
Again your 3rd example does not apply and a desperate reach to make a point .. Thats a helluva road to travel and connect racism in RL .. Emails from your wife .. to the comments from the likes of JoeI8yermomma44271.. to try an make a point about the lack of empathy on the internet .. Where once again .. NOONE is accountable .. Nothing will change .
You are accountable to your wife and have an emotional interest to begin with i would think ... And of course Racism is am emotional issue for all (im an American Indian) And your accountable for your actions for or against Racism in RL .. so there it matters .. Here .. YOU have NO Idea at all if someone is telling you the TRUTH positivley or Negativley relative to an issue like Racism here .. SO why would you take any of it to heart and hurt your Feelings over it ..
Check your feelings at the door when you log on ..
Not to mention what we are discussing here is Empathy in GAming ..
you keep saying "no one is accountable" yet if you say to someone that they are "a fucking worthless brainded scumfuck bastard pile of
trash mental dickface that should be gunned down in the street like the
degenerate you are"....guess what, you'll get banned. That's called being held accountable.
LOL .. really now so your version of accountability is a temp ban/ and or the 45 seconds it takes to make a new acct.. Thats not accountability in my world
And someone who would say that in RL most likely would not in person as REAL accountability would factor in ,,
Just another bad logic in a long list of it in this thread ..
LMFAO .. the smart kids dont bring there feelings to internet ... It is no place for feelings ..
I'm curious, why? You know feelings is a very personal property. Who's to say where you shall or shan't take it?
I don't care about other people's feelings. I offend a lot of people, and I tell them I don't care if they are hurt. But I never, ever, blame them for feeling hurt or in your case, having feelings altogether.
I don't know. Maybe you're right, apparently it is no place for logic as well.
Really , this needs an explanation ...
Because ........... No one is accountable on the internet.......
because people speak with ambiguity.......
Because ... unlike In-Person encounters , people act completly different on the internet than they normally due (in most instances) . wether postivley or negativley.
Because... your feelings are your personal property , one should be logical enough to not let people on the ineternet who dont give a fuck about you the ability to manipulate your feelings ...(leave that for people who matter in your RL)
Because ... It cant be healthy to let any of the above to effect your life (emotionally), Knowing full well what you are logging into ..
Its equivalent to owning two very large dogs , and going into your back yard to play(without cleaning up first) and stepping in shit and getting upset by it .. Guess what the dogs dont care , and you knew when you went in there this could happen and yet you still let yourself get upset ..
The internet is your yard and full of shit , so either clean up( block and filter) of get shit on and cry ..
Internet and real-life have merged a long time ago. Where do you draw the line? If your wife sends you an email you won't get emotional because it is not real? Does her words have to be in person to affect you? Maybe you say you shouldn't let your emotions get affected by strangers. So if a stranger comes to you and offends you in the worst way possible you'd say hey I don't know you so I don't care? Perhaps you do, and I'm not saying you shouldn't. By all means, I am the same. But it doesn't make the stranger's rudeness okay. Nor if you got upset over it meant you're the one with a problem.
You talk about cleaning up, but you're not cleaning anything up. You're just ignoring the problem. Yes we know the internet is filled with filth, that's why we're having this discussion. The means to clean that filth. And you know, it's alright to clean your back yard once in a while, because the smell of shit would get into your house, it could bring all sorts of disease to the rest of the household as well. It is true the back yard is outside of your house, but it is still attached to your house, in some sort of a immediate matter.
You're right about the whole "ignorance is a bliss" attitude, just don't try to sell it as something else. Because ignorance has never solved anything, ever, period.
And why stop here? Let's expand your solution to other problems the world is facing now. If everyone could just don't let racism hurt their feelings... you know.. why let a racist manipulate your feelings? You should leave your feelings for the ones who matter to you IRL.
You know funny thing is I am one of those people who'd get affected by almost nothing IRL, let alone on the net. But that in no way gives me the right to judge someone for getting upset over a person being a jerk to them. It doesn't matter if it's on the web, it is still pretty much real. Of course it is better not to get upset, but still doesn't make the offender any right. I'm not a fan of PC or SJW movements--I'd leave the reasons for that for another day--but your attitude is allowing the internet to become a worse place everyday. It is the new millennia version of the macho culture of "feelings are for sissies".
A wall of silly here ..
1st...No kidding if my wife sends me an email .. LOl really ..Dismissed .. not applicable ..Of course emotion is involved its my wife .. Not some stranger on the internet ...."You gotta Keep Em Seperated"
The problem here is learning to seperate RL from internet .. Do you really have the same emotion invested in my comments as your wifes .. Get a grip
2nd.. This yard the (Internet) cannot be cleaned by anyone ...EVER ..so either learn to block and filter or get shit on and cry .. simple as that ..
Again your 3rd example does not apply and a desperate reach to make a point .. Thats a helluva road to travel and connect racism in RL .. Emails from your wife .. to the comments from the likes of JoeI8yermomma44271.. to try an make a point about the lack of empathy on the internet .. Where once again .. NOONE is accountable .. Nothing will change .
You are accountable to your wife and have an emotional interest to begin with i would think ... And of course Racism is am emotional issue for all (im an American Indian) And your accountable for your actions for or against Racism in RL .. so there it matters .. Here .. YOU have NO Idea at all if someone is telling you the TRUTH positivley or Negativley relative to an issue like Racism here .. SO why would you take any of it to heart and hurt your Feelings over it ..
Check your feelings at the door when you log on ..
Not to mention what we are discussing here is Empathy in GAming ..
You pick words out of my comment selectively and make self-made facts to prove I am wrong. But since I am not trying to convince you personally here it doesn't matter.
You are again emphasizing on your personal choice--not caring. Again I say, not caring wouldn't make the problem go away and you can't force anyone not to care. People do care, and some people care enough to make a change. You're just eliminating yourself from the conversation, you can't eliminate the conversation.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
LMFAO .. the smart kids dont bring there feelings to internet ... It is no place for feelings ..
I'm curious, why? You know feelings is a very personal property. Who's to say where you shall or shan't take it?
I don't care about other people's feelings. I offend a lot of people, and I tell them I don't care if they are hurt. But I never, ever, blame them for feeling hurt or in your case, having feelings altogether.
I don't know. Maybe you're right, apparently it is no place for logic as well.
Really , this needs an explanation ...
Because ........... No one is accountable on the internet.......
because people speak with ambiguity.......
Because ... unlike In-Person encounters , people act completly different on the internet than they normally due (in most instances) . wether postivley or negativley.
Because... your feelings are your personal property , one should be logical enough to not let people on the ineternet who dont give a fuck about you the ability to manipulate your feelings ...(leave that for people who matter in your RL)
Because ... It cant be healthy to let any of the above to effect your life (emotionally), Knowing full well what you are logging into ..
Its equivalent to owning two very large dogs , and going into your back yard to play(without cleaning up first) and stepping in shit and getting upset by it .. Guess what the dogs dont care , and you knew when you went in there this could happen and yet you still let yourself get upset ..
The internet is your yard and full of shit , so either clean up( block and filter) of get shit on and cry ..
Internet and real-life have merged a long time ago. Where do you draw the line? If your wife sends you an email you won't get emotional because it is not real? Does her words have to be in person to affect you? Maybe you say you shouldn't let your emotions get affected by strangers. So if a stranger comes to you and offends you in the worst way possible you'd say hey I don't know you so I don't care? Perhaps you do, and I'm not saying you shouldn't. By all means, I am the same. But it doesn't make the stranger's rudeness okay. Nor if you got upset over it meant you're the one with a problem.
You talk about cleaning up, but you're not cleaning anything up. You're just ignoring the problem. Yes we know the internet is filled with filth, that's why we're having this discussion. The means to clean that filth. And you know, it's alright to clean your back yard once in a while, because the smell of shit would get into your house, it could bring all sorts of disease to the rest of the household as well. It is true the back yard is outside of your house, but it is still attached to your house, in some sort of a immediate matter.
You're right about the whole "ignorance is a bliss" attitude, just don't try to sell it as something else. Because ignorance has never solved anything, ever, period.
And why stop here? Let's expand your solution to other problems the world is facing now. If everyone could just don't let racism hurt their feelings... you know.. why let a racist manipulate your feelings? You should leave your feelings for the ones who matter to you IRL.
You know funny thing is I am one of those people who'd get affected by almost nothing IRL, let alone on the net. But that in no way gives me the right to judge someone for getting upset over a person being a jerk to them. It doesn't matter if it's on the web, it is still pretty much real. Of course it is better not to get upset, but still doesn't make the offender any right. I'm not a fan of PC or SJW movements--I'd leave the reasons for that for another day--but your attitude is allowing the internet to become a worse place everyday. It is the new millennia version of the macho culture of "feelings are for sissies".
A wall of silly here ..
1st...No kidding if my wife sends me an email .. LOl really ..Dismissed .. not applicable ..Of course emotion is involved its my wife .. Not some stranger on the internet ...."You gotta Keep Em Seperated"
The problem here is learning to seperate RL from internet .. Do you really have the same emotion invested in my comments as your wifes .. Get a grip
2nd.. This yard the (Internet) cannot be cleaned by anyone ...EVER ..so either learn to block and filter or get shit on and cry .. simple as that ..
Again your 3rd example does not apply and a desperate reach to make a point .. Thats a helluva road to travel and connect racism in RL .. Emails from your wife .. to the comments from the likes of JoeI8yermomma44271.. to try an make a point about the lack of empathy on the internet .. Where once again .. NOONE is accountable .. Nothing will change .
You are accountable to your wife and have an emotional interest to begin with i would think ... And of course Racism is am emotional issue for all (im an American Indian) And your accountable for your actions for or against Racism in RL .. so there it matters .. Here .. YOU have NO Idea at all if someone is telling you the TRUTH positivley or Negativley relative to an issue like Racism here .. SO why would you take any of it to heart and hurt your Feelings over it ..
Check your feelings at the door when you log on ..
Not to mention what we are discussing here is Empathy in GAming ..
You pick words out of my comment selectively and make self-made facts to prove I am wrong. But since I am not trying to convince you personally here it doesn't matter.
You are again emphasizing on your personal choice--not caring. Again I say, not caring wouldn't make the problem go away and you can't force anyone not to care. People do care, and some people care enough to make a change. You're just eliminating yourself from the conversation, you can't eliminate the conversation.
you cannot change anything...
Unless we all attach our Names and Photos to our accts...
It's not about caring and not caring, it's about the fact that different people have different triggers and if you "care," then you pretty much have to just STFU, because everyone can choose to take offense to anything and claim that their feelings were hurt - even if they're just mad that they lose and laughing behind the keyboard while making the forum post.
Companies aren't going to tell these people to just STFU and deal with it, because that would be bad for business. They'd rather virtue signal to attract more customers and make more money. It's generally a bad situation overall.
Personal responsibility is a thing on both sides of this issue. You have to take responsibility for being absolutely awful when you do it, but you also have to take responsibility for putting yourself in a venue that is competitive, and where people simply are not concerned with how you feel about things.
The new generation of gamers (and people, frankly) have not been taught these lessons, and they seem unwilling to learn them.
You don't need empathy. You just need to get a clue, grow some skin, and move on with your life. It's not that bad.
Most pvp games I couldn't compete so I would just stand there and let the otehr person kill me.... Sometimes I would encounter someone that said "hey you're not fighting back" and they would stop, but 90%+ would usually just kill a defenseless player.
You weren't defenseless, you just chose not to fight back.
That's a big difference.
Don't play a PvP game if you don't want to PvP. There are enough PvE games out there. It's not those games' fault that you burnt yourself out on them :-P
My friend played L2 and he'd do what you did (not fight back, let them kill him). Never bothered him. I went and rezzed him, and he continued on about his business. I think I complained more than he did about it ("Ugh... someone might take my XP spot now!")
But, he's like 50. I reckon if he was a 20 year old, I would never hear the end of it :-P
Internet and RL have only merged for clueless people divorced from reality. Random people on the internet are about as obligated to display empathy or niceness to you as strangers on the street.
Comments
First thing they add PvP as a supplement to lack of end game content if said game company don't want to invest in more content for said game. Second by adding PvP feature to grab as many players into their game as possible which in my opinion is a bad idea. It's like putting wolves into a den of rabbits is as good idea as a free meal pass. Perhaps that the number one reason why MMORPG game failed is that they allow wolves into a forest of cute and peace loving bunny which will be slaughter in the next few months.
At this point you can only imagine what kind of nightmare will be for a new mmo game would allow open pvp anywhere in the open world? The wolves will pretty much kills any who step into the server, which will of course, kills the game faster than a warp drive. That's why none of those games ever make it to the mainstream, simply due to DoA. Unlike the wolves analogy, the PvPer I should say are even more destructive in a PvE games. People in PvE games like to help other and forge new friendship to do and build bigger things, while the PvPer would love to go around killing and destroying everything they touch. PvPer love to see ppl suffering and destroy all their hard work. Its fun for a while but once you have to rebuild or die for the 20x time you want to rage quit fast.
In my opinion, PvE players can not coexist with PvPer within the same space unless the whole game revolve around wolves eating cute loving bunny's (PvE players). For anyone suggested that game companies to just make games for only PvE or PvP games. But then the PvPer would love to argue they only like to PvP in a PvE game cause other wise, they can't slaughter the cute bunny's if the game don't include PvP feature within a PvE game. The lot would say what about dueling, its not the same for the psychopathy hungry wolves would only enjoy themselves at the expense of other suffering that's the way how I see it, experienced, and see how it went down in all the mmo's that I played. Not to say, there are surviving PvE mmo games out there but those game aren't focus on the player's character. I believe for a successful PvE game have to be more focus on the character the player had created but that's another thing altogether.
These days if it's got PvP, it's almost always non-consensual. You can gank them anytime you want. Sure, some of them limit you to "the other factions", or "not in the sanctuary city, maybe", but out in the actual game world, it's pretty much kill others.
Now if it's a PvE player, that pretty much screws them over. They don't want PvP, or at least not now, they've probably got to gather a bunch of resources for some stupid crafting thing or whatever.
Now let's see what happens when you put PvP and PvE together.
If non-consensual PvP is available, the PvP ganks the PvE, thus wrecking the PvEers day.
If consensual only PvP is the rule, the PvPer can't gank the PvEer, and so goes finds someone that's actually PvP to go kill. Nothing bad happens to anyone.
PvPers complaining about PvEers is like a Mass Shooter complaining about some unarmed grocery shopper wearing a bullet proof vest.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
BTW, I think Batman would be happy to be able to be Bruce Wayne all the time, but even if the Joker and all the rest were put behind bars or killed each other, new villains would always rise. The Joker, however, would probably still be laughing and looking for something else to destroy if he managed to reduce Batman and all of Gotham to smoking ashes.
I remember when City of Heroes was in Beta, there were already people wanting to be villains and figuring out ways they could lead team members into suicide missions and then hang back and watch them all die. When they expanded to include City of Villains, there were complaints that their territory was already run-down, dark and gloomy -- they wanted to destroy a bright, shiny town!
Oh, hey, perhaps we should just look at the popularity of Grand Theft Auto?
In the real world, evil deeds have nasty consequences -- and look how many people still do evil things! Plus there's all those things that give you a kick, thrill, hit, trip, or just push that button in your brain that makes you feel good... and want more. These often lead to the most tragic consequences, and we all know that... but look at how popular they are, too.
In the virtual world of games, slaughtering a player character that isn't close to being a match to yours can give a lot of people pleasure, apparently, and what's the consequences? Well, those CAN be designed into a game. Don't some games have a Karma system? It seems to me something like that would be fairly easy to implement. I'm not saying it would be a breeze, but it shouldn't be a monumental task. I seem to have heard, though, that players tend to find ways to exploit systems like that, too.
But mostly it's just sad that so many players seem to want to be like the Joker, and actually enjoy turning beautiful things into garbage, encountering someone enjoying their first experience learning to play a role in a new virtual world and killing their avatar easily... and killing him again when he comes looking for the loot he dropped... and then hunting him down and killing him again as he respawns and tries to find adventure in the opposite direction. Sick, sick, evil people.
Returning to the comic book theme and CoH/CoV, I was disappointed that people didn't seem to understand or just didn't want to play the way comic book villains usually "play" (or used to, before things like "The Killing Joke" came out). I think Dr. Doom is the perfect example -- he could cause far more damage than he has, could have killed all sorts of heroes right off the bat, etc. But he's complex, and he has his pride, he's not going to harm a fly if it's not bothering him or in his way. He even has his own sense of morality and righteousness, words that I wonder if a lot of people today have heard very often, or believe in even if they have.
Even the villains that didn't have such scruples simply wouldn't deign to kill a hero or someone if they didn't need to -- not worth the effort, it would imply they were afraid to give them another chance, they wanted the victim to live in order to "give a message" to someone else, etc.
People just don't seem to appreciate finesse, style, or even the grand old showmanship of years gone by. Pro wrestling used to have such wonderful, bigger-than-life characters, then D generation X came along and ever since it's just been a bunch of vile, mean-spirited punks, with a few exceptions.
Oh well, I'm really rambling now and this is too long and with all the other comments probably nobody will see it anyway.
What lacks in direction and purpose. DF was at its best when there was large alliances fighting each other.
I don't care about other people's feelings. I offend a lot of people, and I tell them I don't care if they are hurt. But I never, ever, blame them for feeling hurt or in your case, having feelings altogether.
I don't know. Maybe you're right, apparently it is no place for logic as well.
To me however I see also that the anonymously of the web has become a big problem. Noob bashen, griefing, trolling and toxicity plague pvp servers of any game. If you make a small mistake during a moba match, all your "teammates" start yelling at you how you should delete game and what a horrible Noob you are. In survival games you can pick up a rock before a group of end game players comes rushing in and one shotting you.
We lost the idea of "let's have fun together." somewhere along the way. It has been ages when I lost to a pvp fight only to be contacted by the guy stating "whoaw nice fight man, almost got me there. What skills did you use that dealt x mount of damage." or if I said in a shooter "hiya guys I'm new" they would respond with actually giving me tip and tricks. the anonymous internet gave us a place to be a complete asshole way to easy and even rewarded us for it.
Well we got more pokeballs even if that one missed and flew over your head, I just loaded up at the last pokestop.
It was a joke by the way.
I think it was Torval who mentioned sportsmanship, that is what PvP needs. But empathy, unless we do not mean the same thing by that word or its application to PvP then no, definitely not.
Because ........... No one is accountable on the internet.......
because people speak with ambiguity.......
Because ... unlike In-Person encounters , people act completly different on the internet than they normally due (in most instances) . wether postivley or negativley.
Because... your feelings are your personal property , one should be logical enough to not let people on the ineternet who dont give a fuck about you the ability to manipulate your feelings ...(leave that for people who matter in your RL)
Because ... It cant be healthy to let any of the above to effect your life (emotionally), Knowing full well what you are logging into ..
Its equivalent to owning two very large dogs , and going into your back yard to play(without cleaning up first) and stepping in shit and getting upset by it .. Guess what the dogs dont care , and you knew when you went in there this could happen and yet you still let yourself get upset ..
The internet is your yard and full of shit , so either clean up( block and filter) of get shit on and cry ..
might be shocking to realize, but around 2004 there were actually most MMOs having pvp. and alot better than that shit nowadays
it's not the games that changed, it's the yol.. err... players
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Internet and real-life have merged a long time ago. Where do you draw the line? If your wife sends you an email you won't get emotional because it is not real? Does her words have to be in person to affect you? Maybe you say you shouldn't let your emotions get affected by strangers. So if a stranger comes to you and offends you in the worst way possible you'd say hey I don't know you so I don't care? Perhaps you do, and I'm not saying you shouldn't. By all means, I am the same. But it doesn't make the stranger's rudeness okay. Nor if you got upset over it meant you're the one with a problem.
You talk about cleaning up, but you're not cleaning anything up. You're just ignoring the problem. Yes we know the internet is filled with filth, that's why we're having this discussion. The means to clean that filth. And you know, it's alright to clean your back yard once in a while, because the smell of shit would get into your house, it could bring all sorts of disease to the rest of the household as well. It is true the back yard is outside of your house, but it is still attached to your house, in some sort of a immediate matter.
You're right about the whole "ignorance is a bliss" attitude, just don't try to sell it as something else. Because ignorance has never solved anything, ever, period.
And why stop here? Let's expand your solution to other problems the world is facing now. If everyone could just don't let racism hurt their feelings... you know.. why let a racist manipulate your feelings? You should leave your feelings for the ones who matter to you IRL.
You know funny thing is I am one of those people who'd get affected by almost nothing IRL, let alone on the net. But that in no way gives me the right to judge someone for getting upset over a person being a jerk to them. It doesn't matter if it's on the web, it is still pretty much real. Of course it is better not to get upset, but still doesn't make the offender any right. I'm not a fan of PC or SJW movements--I'd leave the reasons for that for another day--but your attitude is allowing the internet to become a worse place everyday. It is the new millennia version of the macho culture of "feelings are for sissies".
PvP in a sport setting deserves sportsmanship.
PvP in a “war” setting deserves passion.
As as far as the whole “What happens when one side dominates” question... I’m interested to see how Crowfall’s attempt to address that works out.
Edit to add: I also think folks have gotten off on a tangent about whether people should be dicks to each other. Obviously that answer is no. But that’s very different from the original question about having “empathy” for the other side in PvP.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Some of the most self-absorbed, caustic people I've encountered have been in PvE games.
~~ postlarval ~~
1st...No kidding if my wife sends me an email .. LOl really ..Dismissed .. not applicable ..Of course emotion is involved its my wife .. Not some stranger on the internet ...."You gotta Keep Em Seperated"
The problem here is learning to seperate RL from internet .. Do you really have the same emotion invested in my comments as your wifes .. Get a grip
2nd.. This yard the (Internet) cannot be cleaned by anyone ...EVER ..so either learn to block and filter or get shit on and cry .. simple as that ..
Again your 3rd example does not apply and a desperate reach to make a point .. Thats a helluva road to travel and connect racism in RL .. Emails from your wife .. to the comments from the likes of JoeI8yermomma44271.. to try an make a point about the lack of empathy on the internet .. Where once again .. NOONE is accountable .. Nothing will change .
You are accountable to your wife and have an emotional interest to begin with i would think ...
And of course Racism is am emotional issue for all (im an American Indian) And your accountable for your actions for or against Racism in RL .. so there it matters .. Here .. YOU have NO Idea at all if someone is telling you the TRUTH positivley or Negativley relative to an issue like Racism here .. SO why would you take any of it to heart and hurt your Feelings over it ..
Check your feelings at the door when you log on ..
Not to mention what we are discussing here is Empathy in GAming ..
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
And someone who would say that in RL most likely would not in person as REAL accountability would factor in ,,
Just another bad logic in a long list of it in this thread ..
You are again emphasizing on your personal choice--not caring. Again I say, not caring wouldn't make the problem go away and you can't force anyone not to care. People do care, and some people care enough to make a change. You're just eliminating yourself from the conversation, you can't eliminate the conversation.
Unless we all attach our Names and Photos to our accts...
Otherwise impossible ..
Companies aren't going to tell these people to just STFU and deal with it, because that would be bad for business. They'd rather virtue signal to attract more customers and make more money. It's generally a bad situation overall.
Personal responsibility is a thing on both sides of this issue. You have to take responsibility for being absolutely awful when you do it, but you also have to take responsibility for putting yourself in a venue that is competitive, and where people simply are not concerned with how you feel about things.
The new generation of gamers (and people, frankly) have not been taught these lessons, and they seem unwilling to learn them.
You don't need empathy. You just need to get a clue, grow some skin, and move on with your life. It's not that bad.
You weren't defenseless, you just chose not to fight back.
That's a big difference.
Don't play a PvP game if you don't want to PvP. There are enough PvE games out there. It's not those games' fault that you burnt yourself out on them :-P
My friend played L2 and he'd do what you did (not fight back, let them kill him). Never bothered him. I went and rezzed him, and he continued on about his business. I think I complained more than he did about it ("Ugh... someone might take my XP spot now!")
But, he's like 50. I reckon if he was a 20 year old, I would never hear the end of it :-P
Internet and RL have only merged for clueless people divorced from reality. Random people on the internet are about as obligated to display empathy or niceness to you as strangers on the street.