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General: Outside the Box: Player Content
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
Nathan Knaack's weekly "Outside the Box" column returns today with "Player Created, Operated and Destroyable Content". In this article, he looks at the power of the largest development team available: us.
| It might be surprising to realize this late in the game of the MMORPG industry, but while making the initial sale of the box in the store is important, an online game needs to keep subscribers by continuing to captivate their interest. That is fact A. Next, its fairly obvious that a studio of five to fifty developers will never, ever be able to continually satiate an audience of five thousand to five million. Theres the unavoidable fact B. Put them together and what do you get? A successful, long-term MMORPG that hopes to keep the same subscribers (not just the fresh meat brought in by releasing the same old game on a new continent) over the course of more than a few months needs more than just the finite content that a handful of designers, artists, and programmers can create. How do you provide enough content for five million players?
How about recruiting five million developers? |
You can read his column here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
Hello Nathan,
I found this website about a week or so ago, and reading your various articles, both Outside the Box, and the earlier stuff about The Chronicle, have got me pretty excited.
I've been driving my friends nuts for about a year now with specific ideas for an MMO that I'd like to some day create, given the funds, and a team with the skills and enthusiasm I have for the project. Imagine my surprise when I find this site and your articles where someone has many of the same ideas I've been spouting all along. I'm very excited about The Chronicle, even though you do several things differently than I'd prefer.
At any rate, at the heart of many of my ideas are the concepts you discuss in this article. While I can't really enjoy it anymore, my MMO preferences are strongly influenced by Ultima Online, which at one point had a pretty harsh death penalty (still almost as harsh...) completely open PvP, Player Housing (at this point, fully customizeable in the same vein as Sims, with many of the same functional enhancements as it's always had, such as forges et al) etc. Since then, some of my primary frustrations has been the inability to create a character that's *just* how I like them, to create a guild with a good rank structure, and to have a real effect on the world around me.
My ideas are focused around creating a game where those things are possible. Housing that's not built in 5 seconds, hired NPCs to defend you and your property, and the ability to customize the look and feel of your equipment and belongings. "guilds" could be of various types, and each would have different attributes. The traditional "group of players with a name" would certainly be possible, because that's not a bad thing. But what if there was the option to become an actual, game-mechanically recognized trade organization? Or a mercenary unit of elite soldiers? Or even an actual familial group, with established relations? Other ideas involve allowing, perhaps eventually requiring, players to take control of actual territorial governments, and determine things like taxation, civil and military policies, public works and even culture. My final idea is one stolen pretty much whole-cloth from an old program that UO had; The Seer Program. Seers were player volunteers who went through an application program, and if accepted, given certain powers to create NPCs, monsters, and loot, and to empower other volunteers (called troubadours) to act as story guides and "GM characters" to create interactive, non-repetitive LIVE story content.
I'm in total agreement that Player Contribution is the only way MMOs will ever be able to create a strong fan-base that will not fade in a year or so, when the next-big-thing MMO is launched. "Content-based" MMOs will never be able to create quality content in enough quantity to appease gamers of all sorts for any length of time; The development cycle is simply too long. What is needed is a toolkit for players to create their own content, to drive their own adventures, and the adventures of others.
But for now, what ways do you think players should be able to contribute to the game world and, more importantly, how? How do we balance player-created content so it doesn't turn out to be as lopsided as a class system, where one type becomes notably more powerful than another? For example, how do you balance it so that people who invest in architecture are just as viable, fun, and effective as those who focus on weapon-designing skills?
Heh. Those of us who remember the not-so-massive MORPGs called MUDs and MOOs will read this article with a sense of deja vu. In the early 90's, text-based Internet RPGs such as DragonMUD and the far more notorius Furry were early multiplayer games -- and they all involved player authors for content.
It was a good idea then, too!
Play-by-email turn-based games -- early 80's
Server based games on timeshare, such as Empire on VAX/VMS -- early 80's
MUDs, MOOs, MUCKs, and other M**s -- late 80's
EQ etc. mid-90's
and back to the future...
Suddenly I feel old...!
One idea that ocurred to me when reading your article, was that it would be nifty, for players who have essentially "peaked" their characters, could be given several options. including to have that character retired, anf be slightly modified,and put into the game as a heroic NPC, to become some sort of in-game mentor, or guide, storyteller, etc.. as mentioned in the previous posts.
The triple benefit of this strategy, is that the folks you would be offering this too, would be not only almost as familiar with the ins and outs of the game as the devs, they would also have shown that they have the devotion, and time to make the neccessary commitment to be involved in that type of content. Plus, it might keep some of the folks who would otherwise normally move on to another game after capping everything they can do in the game.
Of course there would be some difficulties, making sure that the PC-NPC's would not abuse their privileges, and preventing too many folks from attaining that level. Plus, you wouldn't want a horde of level 60 NPC's bumming around, so you might need to reduce their levels, permanently to a lower, situation appropriate level.
You're right on the money. Dynamic content is what can really hold my interest in a MMO and so few companies are really developing it. Plenty have promised it and lead to disappointment after disappointment when they give up and just copy other games.
Each MMO seems to focus on different combat, and a different variation of level grind. I wish they'd focus more on a world which the players can shape and change (Especially other than PvP lands grabs which is fine, but getting old).
I'm glad to have inspired your next article.
Now, as for balancing fun in architecture -vs- weaponsmithing, it's definitely, like any sort of crafting, a preference thing. I love games that make player crafting important, but I cannot myself really enjoy any crafting system I've seen so far. Many of the people who I've seen get seriously into crafting in any game do so because they're acchiever-type gamers; They're usually doing it for the money. Now, I'm sure there are exceptions, and more motives than simply that. I know of many people who've done it as a surefire way to meet people; When you're creating a commodity, people are definitely going to talk to you. Others do it for the recognition; They enjoy the knowledge that they're providing a service, and if they do so consistently, courteously and promptly, they're going to gather a name. For example, there was a weaponsmith I always went to on SWG, even when my guild provided the same services for discounted fees, because she had hooked me up with my first decent rifle, and thereafter provided quality and good service.
Now, to make sure that such professions as architect are viable, (because weaponsmithing will always be viable..) you have to create a demand. One way to do so is to make it such that you must go through a player to get a house, or a piece of furniture built, repaired or upgraded. That player will work with the buyer on creating a floorplan and the overall look and functionality, and then they'll draft up the "blueprint". Their skill level will determine how long it will take, how much materials it will require, etc, and may in some instances determine the quality of some features.
What is most important though, in my opinion, is to make sure that any crafting profession is viable at any skill level. Every game I've bothered with crafting in has made it so that you basically had to be a master or damn near to be able to make anything worth buying, hence making Mastery the baseline, rather than the exception. What this does is makes crafting a grind; The things you craft along the way are basically useless, so you do so repetitively, either junking the results or selling them to an NPC vendor for a loss or a miniscule profit just to repeat the whole process again. The "journey" to master is a chore, and many players, like myself, will choose not to bother.
Additionally, there's a more gnarled problem with what I refer to as the "tink-tink-done" process. Most MMO crafting processes basically consist of making sure you have the components, and clicking a button. SWG did something more interesting, but ran afoul of the problem mentioned in the last paragraph. It's a difficult balance between the tink-tink-done way of doing things, and something that makes the process more involved or interactive, because when it's required for you to repeat the process to gain further skill, it's going to end up taking far too much drudgery, even with a more involved process.
My general ideas about this part of it are, at current, fetal. I'm thinking the process of creating a single item should take notably longer than it does in most MMOs, and be very involved, especially in the part of designing the look of the item (where it's important, of course) and in determining certain functionality factors (such as a sword that's pommel heavy for greater tip control, hence greater thrust accuracy, but lesser cutting strength, etc.). But when you've created one item, you've taken a significant step toward advancing your skill. Rather than spending 5 hours creating 100 swords for a 0.5 increase to your skill, you spend 5 hours creating *one* sword, for a 5.0 increase to your skill. (numbers pulled entirely out of the air for explanation purposes, and should not be construed as carefully considered ratios).
Another First time poster here, Darius wolfe i think you have a great thing going there with your idea of how crafting should be. I think two things have been completley ignored in the crafting process and weapons period in MMO's Thus far. First off the process is way to simple without little thought (refering to WoW crafting process mainly talk about boreing) I have never been able to get into crafting myself due to the reason when i craft i want to make something worth while i dont want to spend 8 hours collecting materials (or x amount of gold dappers or whatever the game currency is) to buy supplies and 30 minutes creating the exact same thing over and over again for what? just to sell it to the vendor and lose money. And i think alot of people are with me on this. The next thing is i dont think developers have realized exactly how important customization is to some people (except CoH/CoV to bad they didnt get alot more things right) Im the kind of person that will in most games just completley skip over a better item for something i like the looks of. Im not one of those "eliteites" that will just wear whatever as long as it makes them more powerfull sure i want something that is powerfull but would it be to much to ask that it looks good to me to? and i just think it would be great if in crafting of any type you could customize say your blade look your hilt the color's what effects show (glowys) etc just by what you PUT into the item and how great would it be to say well i want an accurate weapon instead of one that does alot of damage but is very unreliable so thats what you make instead of trying to search for a pattern blueprint etc that fits what you want. I guess the last thing i should point out is that some things have been done already but its just to little and spread out between to many games. DAoC you could dye items any color you wanted, Ryzom has a decient crafting system you can somewhat customize items to go in the direction you want as far as accuracy defence etc. SWG what a crafting system i wont even go over everything i liked about SWG's Crafting system. Well i guess thats enough for my first rant.
Edit: So like 30 mins later this thought occurs to me ok so everyone is not as technologicaly inclined to be able to literly take software and create an item *design a blade hilt etc graphic then 3d model it and skin it* im not so thats probably not even the right terms but what if they allowed those that were the ability to do so then posibly sell the design ingame to crafters who could then make the item i dont know how this would be regulated or how you could put a proper "price" on these items but i do believe it should be something that is looked into.
I played City of Heroes for over a year. The amount of fun I had just tweaking my character to look just right definitely stuck with me. Finding the right clothes, and working with the tailor to get them colored the way I wanted them also took some time and effort when I played SWG. (I played a wookiee before armor; Cool lookin' clothes was all I had) Getting my T21's stats the way I wanted them also took some time, and even though no one else could see how unique my rifle was, I knew it had been customized just for me. Even back in UO, I cultivated a distinctive look, and frequently took my armor off so that I could wear my clothes. When Age of Shadows came, and I got my spot in the land-grab, I spent hours and quite a bit of gold tweaking the design of "Fortress Blackwolf". It was an impressive edifice, I'll tell you. I also worked with purchasing colored stone to have a full long stone table with about 20 stone chairs commissioned, with 5 of those chairs in a different colored stone for the Council of my guild.
Believe me, customization is something near and dear to my heart.
Some more specific ideas on customizable looks (this is drifting just a bit from the main topic, but I'll bring it back, I promise) I've had are these; First off, most MMOs have a form-follows-function approach to gear, and I'm definitely down with that. A breastplate is going to look like a breast plate. Chainmail will look like chainmail. But imagine if you can choose the specific cut of your chain shirt? Want a full haubergeon, or a hauberk? Maybe a birnie, or just a vest? Maybe your breastplate will be a peascod, or a roman-style sculpted? Maybe it'll be bronze (or at least bronze-plated steel) or maybe it'll be raw black steel. And then.. what if you wanted to paint it? I figure a full suit of 2-3 color patterns, like some of those available in CoH would help you distinguish your look nicely. Apply the same principles to leather armor, and clothes, (though obviously you'd dye those, rather than paint or lacquer them)
Many of the same ideas can apply to weapons. There are a buttload of different weapons that were really used, so you don't even need to get fantastical to find a wide-array of weapons with various strengths and weaknesses. Now you allow for subtle differences in color based on the metals used, and the shape of the crosspieces and pommels, perhaps with designs etched in, or jewels encrusting it. Then if you want to get fantastic, etch runes into the blades or shafts which may change them in some magical way, or even impart some fancy looking glow.
See, now the thing is, all of these things are already being used in many fantasy games (my main focus) but the difference is that what I'm talking about is player-chosen designs for player-created items, not just for uber-leet weapons you can find. Additionally, make some, if not necessarily all of these options available "after market", so to speak; That nice sword you took off the bandit-king is kind of a shabby looking thing, so you can get it polished up, get the pommel brassed, etched and encrusted with jewels to make it a sword worthy of the man who single-handedly destroyed the bandit empire.
As silly as it may seem, just having the ability to make your character look as cool as you envisioned them to be can make a lot of gamers really happy.. And the inability to do so can destroy a lot of gamers' fun. When you consider that your "character" is more than just the avatar, it's a logical step to realize that any property associated with them should also be equally customizeable, whether it be a house, a horse, a speeder-bike, or an artillery piece.
Edit:
Nimfor said: "So like 30 mins later this thought occurs to me ok so everyone is not as technologicaly inclined to be able to literly take software and create an item *design a blade hilt etc graphic then 3d model it and skin it* im not so thats probably not even the right terms but what if they allowed those that were the ability to do so then posibly sell the design ingame to crafters who could then make the item i dont know how this would be regulated or how you could put a proper "price" on these items but i do believe it should be something that is looked into."
Now, I'm not entirely sure about this. It's not necessarily a bad idea, but I think technologically it has it's limits. Have you ever played Second Life? That game is full of unique items, shaped and skinned by players.. And it can take some awful time to load as all of those items are transferred via the net to a memory buffer. With most items in most MMOs, (theoretically, at any rate) the information for the models and the skins are already encoded into the files on your hard-drive, so the game only needs to access them for them to appear on your screen. I think if a sufficient amount of components, colors and textures are provided, a similar level of uniqueness can exist.
I agree with the editor, player-created content is what defines a 3rd generation game for me. That said, I think the focus of the article is a bit off, since it focuses on player housing rather than what player created content actually is, adventures crafted by one player for others. Star Wars Galaxies already allows players to build, place and furnish their own houses and cities, and allows one faction to place outposts and bases for the other faction to destroy as part of galactic civil war. This approach only works for people who are into PvP - it gives more things to destroy, but no actual stories or content.
I expect to see a system where one first creates a dungeon or quest area, with tools akin to Never Winter Nights 2 (if you haven't read about that thing, time to do it now!), and then publishes it in a player run test server. Other players can then test and review the dungeon, and if it gets good rates, the devs move it to a suitable location on the actual, official game servers. One would have to start out small, but every time one gets a new dungeon to official servers, one would receive something like "dungeon master experience points", which would allow access to bigger and better areas and tools.
Perhaps there could be a system whereby the dungeon designer places treasures he has won from those few official, epic dungeons inside a player-created dungeon, and the dungeon creator would then receive income based on the number of adventurers killed by his pet mobs inside the dungeon. The dungeon could not be too hard or adventurers wouldn't come, but it also couldn't be too easy since then the first group would clean it and the creator would receive no income. Maybe this would lead each guild to have it's own "guild dungeon" that would be used to get rid of excess loot from the hardest epic dungeons and hence to compensate for the immense expense of trying to advance further in those dungeons?
Anyway, it's about time we got something like this implemented; anyone who thinks player-created content doesn't work should take a look at old MUD games and ask what is the secret of their immense longevity. Or at Never Winter Nights, for that matter. It can, and absolutely does work when done right - and we already have the technology to do it as well.
I like your "Seer program" idea - I do something like that in World of Warcraft myself when I pull a huge dragon from far away lands into a capital city and it always makes everyone's day. That said, perhaps everyone doesn't enjoy these "live events" (although an overwhelming majority really does), not to mention the potential for actual abuse of power. But if proper and effective safeguards can be implemented to go with it, I would be all for a system like that as well of course. But crafting, or the ability to create or even destroy random stuff... that's not actual content, there's no story in that.
Dear Nathan,
I have read all of your out-of-the-box column and i have to say im really REALLY impressed. It makes me drool all over my keyboard just to see all those ideas.
But is it feasible ? Would the industry be willing to implement only a 1% of those ideas ? At the moment we have the biggest player ever on the scene: World of Warcraft, this game will influence more games then any idea you've been writing down. This game will ruin the upcoming MMORPG's for atleast 5 years after its initial release and will be used to get money to support new MMORPG's ("Does this game your developing has the same potential customers that World of warcraft got?").
While i stand fully behind your ideas i dont think we're ever going to see any of those advanced 3rd gen ideas implented anytime soon.
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/neverwinter-nights-ii/666610p3.html
(Read on from "Choose your own Adventure")
Yes I understand you were not talking to me. Why do I post this link? To show you that ideas that are far more advanced than Nathan's wishlist are already pretty far in production, so the article is not as far-fetched as people might think. :-)
I couldn't have said any of that better myself.
The need for player input and yes even actual creation of this or that in a game is essential to pleasing the base as a whole. Players feel the need to make thier character and belongings thier own in a way that they feel unique and oustanding.
Who wants thier home to look like 2 million others, or thier costumes like you spoke of to look like everyone elses. And yes the speederbikes in SwG even, could have used more creativity on the part of the players but what do all those things have in common? Limited chance or resource in games for the player on the part of the developers to actually do so. In other words, creation aspects on that scale are just not there for us to play with.
Playing online games for around ten years or so going back to ultima online and many others, Ive found that even I found a day when I didn't wanna go out and pvp or pve the whole time I was on and to this day, playing City Of Villains you can occasionally find me at the Tailor trying to find some small piece in a large puzzle to call my own out of my costume or at the superbase trying to make something I can call my own and even this has its limits because in the end, someone has the same Gi, Zombie mask, shirt or skirt, or design whatever you may choose to wear or add.
Now a dev may probably sit back and say "well if you think you can do better, get your tale in college for four years and lets see you do it" ( I know they think this) who wouldn't after all, we are criticizing thier skill and accomplishment with a fine tooth comb. But the fact of the matter is and always has been as comsumers we will always fall short of finding exactly what we want in games for the simple fact that we cannot or may not be able to see, have, or design the things we think to be missing out of the games we play. A very dissapointing thought there.
Maybe you've opened up a whole new idea for some lucky "willing to please everyone or die trying" dev team. Because the team that comes into a game design in this fashion and principle, will be the best most successful and longest lived in the industry, and I believe thats exactly what the gaming industry needs right now, Devs who give a damn lol.
Great perspective and ideas on this post Nathan, you've summed it up.
I agree with Nathan about customization being a strong motivator for continued subscription to a game. I also agree Most Devs are basically like Ice Burgs, slow to move, but when they do move it is with force.
The part I want to disagree with is that adding in the customization would constitute the "next generation" in mmorpg developement. I think that is what defined Second Generation, some games did it better than others, and all game from now on will continue to improve on that aspect, but it isn't the next step, it is a step already taken.
The next step, in my opinion, or the next evolution will be the change from Static to Dynamic worlds. The change from a creature who moves five feet one direction, then five feet back agian, with no other puprose except to provide a Level grinding character something to grind, to a psuedo-living creature.
Soon Devs will make worlds that live with or without players in them. Creatures will roam according to the rules of life. Eat, Live, Breed, Die.
Imagine for one second a world where your newly created avatar walks into a grassy field with a wooded patch on a hill and a stream and stands there to watch the scene. As you stand there a few creatures you have never seen wanders in, and searches around the field, ignoring you, but obviously looking for food. As you stand there and watch, These creatures communicate amongst themselves and begin to dig holes, or build hovels. It's clear they want to live here.
Imagine you watch for hours on end, the small hovels turns into a small village, and more of the creatures show up, and things look like they are on the brink of expansion agian. But then something spooks the creatures, and your avatar, who hasnt moved, now sees a set of new comers. A group of different creatures has come to the stream, and begin to build a small hut. More and more arrive, and quickly the two sides are competeing for the same resources, and in front of you war breaks out. For hours the creatures struggle with each other, caranage and destruction mark the land around your avatar.
As you watch you can see the defenders are about to be defeated, the aggressors are close to victory. Then as the battle is almost lost, a single sound pauses the fighting, the sound of your sword clearing the scabbard, the sound of you avatar moving into the fight and joining the struggle. Imagine for a second this battle you have entered, and yet, the aggressors are too many, you try to turn the battle, but you alone can not, and your left with calling for help from your friends, they begin to arrive quickly. As more of your group arrives, the battle turns, and finally the battle is won, the aggressors are driven off.
It's been a long day, and time to log off, I cant imagine anyone who wouldnt be thinking while thier computer shuts down, 'wow, that was great, cant wait to play tomorrow'
The Key to next gen will be dynamic content, and to take it one step further, Player created dynamic content would be the next evolution from there. The players actions will influence the living world, and a living world is ever changing. Imagine a world that after six months the landscape itself has changed based on the actions of the players, and the living npcs. Hills have been leveled, or raised higher, forests cleared or expanded, rivers damed into lakes or dry out. Imagine the struggle of Flora, which happens on a very slow rate, but the battle of which plant will live where. The scene ever changing.
This is what I believe will be the next "Big Thing". Now, saying that, there is another route I see Devs using soon also.
PvD. Player vs. Developer. This is where a paid dev takes over a faction and breathes life into it. He gives it goals, direction, motivation and life. His goal is to influence the npcs of his faction to meet his goals. Players can join and help, or oppose and fight them. Now add in another dev with a different agenda for his faction, and for the hell of it add in one more dev, with her own motivations. Now imagine the clash between these factions for resources and land. As a player you can join any of them, or you can create your own faction to rival the devs.
The point is Dynamic content. It is what is in store for players. I can not wait for it to get here. Dynamic Content will mark Third Generation.
Rage - Head Honcho of the Revilers
"Ragemore and Whine Less"
I'm waiting for the MMO that offers fast lvl/skill gains, but perma-death. The focus would be more on the actions of generations of men and women who live and die in a persistant world, rather than just lvling your avatar to epic demi-god status and getting that Longsword of Uberness +3.
This world would offer player created kingdoms and content much like what was mentioned in the article, but also the concept of Farm Lands. In a nutshell, players should have to eat to live, and farming should be a proffesion.
Some kingdoms should have naturally better farmlands, just as some will have richer mineral deposits, and some will have more lumber available. This could open the doors for trade and interdependence from city to city.
But on the topic of farmlands, there should be a weather system in place where flash floods can ruin your crops, but sunny seasons can produce a surplus. Enemy Armies who are invading your lands can choose to steal your food, or just slaughter your cattle and burn your crops.
A tactic, instead of burning down the entire city, could be to simply cut off your trade routes and starve your enemies into submission. This ofcourse, could take a long time, especially if the kindgom you are seiging has a surpluss of grains within their walls to ration out to the people.
Ofcourse, another tactic to counter that could to be release rats into their city to devour their grain surpluss and spread plague. The possabilities are nearly limitless.
In a nutshell, food is the ultimate resource, and should play a larger role in the next generation of MMO's.
Excellent thread, all the way through.
One thing I want to point out Nathan. If something is put in a game that only 5% of the players use, if it affects 100% of the players it becomes much more viable, and in my opinion should not be considered a waste. This is something that's bothered me for years. A classic example was UO's rare items that were collected and sought after, and for many players only a dream untill after long years of play to be able to afford just one. Then they decided to make rare items an everyday thing, and they lost most of their luster. Pretty much ruined a very exciting thing.
The affects of those things that 5% use could be simply visual beauty. This is a valid thing to be desired by 100% of the players. A beautifull statue in a city, decorated walls, etc. Everyone would enjoy seeing these in the game world. Yet, yes, you are right that it becomes even more valid to the players if these things add something statistically to the game too. That staue might serve the city to attract more NPC hirelings, who "choose" to come because the statue(s) show that the city is more successful. Heck, even players themselves might be affected this way. The decorated walls might serve more than just a status symbol, as they might be able to resist damage better.
The same thing can apply to weapons and armors. Would a gold inlayed staff also be better weighted to be more effective? Would various add on decorations make armor harder to drive a weapon past?
And in a magical world, these things can be made even more interesting.
Darious, I'm not a developer, just a player, but I've seen the obvious benefits of taking more time to produce items too. Instead of cranking out 100 swords, make various parts, refine them, put them together, add artistic effects (which could serve to better balance, or make more durable the sword), and even make the item unique enough that it affects things like player recognition (to NPCs too) and even theft. Why shouldn't a somewhat unique sword be harder to pawn by a thief simply because everyones looking for it? (What about that magical gem studded bracer?)
But mainly, by making item production take more time, it better simulates real world economics, and thus makes it easier to do so for the entire game. This can be huge. It creates value. Not just in the economics, but in the players efforts just as much.
Once upon a time....
So it all comes down to a dynamic, changing world. I want to walk by some ruins and say to myself "ah, i was there when we destroyed those people and their big castle". I want to use a sword that no one else in the world has. I want that mob to do something different, something it's never done before. I want to read a diary produced by a virtual player that leads me to some ruins... a quest that does not exist on any 'walk-through' website. As for quests, if it's possible to create a site that lists the steps you do to finish it, then the game has failed imo.
But how can this be done? One has the user-created content via toolset approach like NWN, or even maps in UT are sort of the same approach. imo, this content is usually a level below what is produced by professionals. I'm sure varying degrees of review could be implemented to only incorporate the best looking/functioning content, but then, walla... you are right where the companies are now. Increased quality requires increased dev-time, which is the source the problem.
That's why I think the final solution has to be content that is produced from player actions within game, instead of players developing content outside of the game. The devs should be spending their time making the game mechanics more and more generalized and abstract, and the content should be appearing from the players actions within game. For example, let's take building structures. The game mechanics needs to implement something at a low level, like the quantity of materials needed to make a brick, the process needed, the types of areas in the virtual world where those materials can be found, etc. The players would actually make bricks, and build the buildings. Then the devs continue working on other low-level things through the life of the game... like new processes for making bricks stronger or making them faster. Maybe mixing other materials together to make different things. This probably isn't a great example, but the idea is that the devs implement/expand on the low-level physics of the virtual world, while the players create the world through their in-game actions. Not ALL stuff, just as much stuff as they want to make. Players write books in the game, hide stuff in strange places, read/translate found books, then go off to steal items from other players, etc. If such a game existed, i would see the dev company also having lots of people, maybe at some higher level yet not real employees, that would play/develop good quest content within the game...
Sorry for the rambling. But imo, this whole topic is THE big topic. Just browse the wow forums and see the craving from the players. I "lived" for a year plus in wow, and there is nothing in that world to show i even existed, (other than friends made and communications continued outside of the game of course). Players want to be different, to explore, to be challenged with the unexpected, to feel the suspense of the unknown. MMOs just haven't gotten there yet imo.
Airhead: You, me, same page.
But see now.. There has to be a balance between always having things for the players to do, and making it non-repetitive. From what I'm reading, the Chronicle has similar ideas to what I've been thinking; Low level "quests" are generated semi-randomly, they're not static. As such, you can repeatedly talk to Farmer Brown and get quests.. Maybe vermin are infesting his root cellar, or perhaps bandits ambushed his workers on their way to market. But those quests will be generated based on certain "need" variables, and what I'm calling "scenario variables".
Scenarios are computer moderated and generated situations that span a zone or sub-zone. For instance, the scenario is "Bandit Camp". Within the zone of effect, regular citizens and guards will be offering quests that involve defending the people from bandits, or attacking bandits. On the other hand, you might find less than shady characters who will offer quests to help the bandits, such as attacking the guards, or stealing things from citizens. Whenever you take a quest that helps one side or the other, the scenario variable will be affected. When the variable reaches some pre-defined condition, then the scenario ends or changes.
Now, this doesn't necessarily work for higher end quests and content. I mean, sure.. You could have a scenario be pretty large scale and require some heroic actions, but this isn't the sort of things heroic stories are generally written about. That's where player-created content comes in. As I mentioned above, I think one of the most important directions MMOs should go is to allow PCs to actually run cities, (and not necessarily just player-created cities) and even kingdoms. This will, in and of itself, create content, as rulers try to gain support among their citizenry and try to attract people to their lands, and would-be conquerers try to gain support to take over the lands. If a good enough job is done with the choosing algorithms for the scenario content, then we've got an ever changing world.
Finally comes in the custom-made, unique content. Either something along the lines of the Seers program I mentioned above, or in-game GMs paid to prepare and run "adventures" with the toolkits necessary to set them up. This way, if you defeat a dragon that was ravening the land, you're not number X of Y people who've done the same identical quest. Additionally, if all "high end" content is of this nature, you've an additional bonus; Any rewards received from accomplishing the quest are also unique; You won't see a bajillion warriors running around with "The Fist of Azeroth" or what have you. That's one thing that always bummed me about other MMOs.. "I've got this unique, powerful item, that I nearly died to acquire! And so do you? And.. him.. too??"
They have already given players the ability to control space in the game, build POS's and stations, and to form multicoroporaton alliances. There are corps who specialise in being mercs for hire, building ships, mining under contract for producers etc. This is all dynamic player generated content. In the future they plan on allowing players to create their own deadspace complexes, inhabit and terraform planets and to customize existing ships to have special attributes (tech 3 ships). They are also giving players the ability to create missions for other players through their contract system.
All of this empowers the players to create their own entertainment and to keep them interested in the game for a long time to come. It's one of the main reasons why they continue to increase their subscriber base and to retain them for longer while other MMO's continue to lose subs after the initial rush dies down.
Interesting article, and I couldn't agree more, because Horizons already has player-created quests in game and is almost ready to release a public quest-creation client. The client is a formatting tool which allows a player to select the various steps and actions that can be executed by the quest engine, set up NPC dialog, select proposed rewards, and finally submit their creation for review and possible implementation. I've used the tool myself, and I can't wait to see what people do with it once it goes public.
There are limitations, of course; if someone wants a new sword, for example, the art assets would have to be created by the art team, and some things like adding NPCs or creating a new playable race have already been ruled out, due to the scope of those changes. Even with those limitations, though, players will be able to create exciting, involving adventures that could reach amazing levels of complexity.
Another new feature Horizons recently implemented is player designed & built dragon lairs. These are totally modular structures which can be combined into a totally individual expression of the owner's needs and personality. The largest lairs can accomodate enough industrial, housing, storage, and commercial structures to qualify as a self-contained city.
I don't think any game will have everything you asked for unless you build it yourself, but Horizons is working towards it.
Guildleader, Mithril Council, Chaos
This is, what a game has to be. A world, where you can live in. Really live. Okay, this sounds obsurd, but thats what really a lot of people want to do. Get in game and get in world, in character.
I am playing WoW since release, a game with a hype and millions of players. But everything in this world is dead. Every Nightelf-Hunter looks like the other (for example). You can fight against a city and you can "win", but nothing happened. Crafting is a joke. All dropped items are better than your own receipes. Roleplaying? Blizz don't like roleplayers. And so one after another, they go. Searching for a game like you describe. Me too
I fear the problem is, its a hard work to create a world like this and its expensive. Think you need a lot of personal and nobody knows, if people stay in game.
My hope is DnL for now. I really hope, they hold their promises, it would be a step in the right direction.
If you ever make a game like you describe, please let me know.
And sorry for my english...
As I understand it, that has already been implemented in great detail in Saga of Ryzom - but the game has been lacking adventure content, which goes a long way to explaining low subscription numbers. Watching a show like you describe is fun sometimes, but when that's all there is to do... meh.
The company is now preparing to launch the Ryzom Ring, which will deliver almost exactly what I have been waiting for: NWN style tools for creating adventures for other players.
The general concensus among the NWN community seems to be that many of the player-made modules kick the crap out of the official campaign created by the professionals within the company. Many other, non-MMORPG games are also seeing players highly preferring some sort of mod over the official thing. Most adventure games (I hesitate to use the term 'RPG') have simple and extremely repetitive storylines to provide some sort of reasoning for a totally linear hack n' slash fest.
Very interesting... I was not aware of Horizons developing in the same direction.
Once again Nathan sparks my interest!
As far as player content, perhaps a saavy developer / investor devote staff to player content and set up a site where player created content can be downloaded. For a premium fee of course.
Once a player decides to do something like create a home, castle, dungeon, it is stocked with whatever the player can afford. NPCs, traps, defenses yes.
The game rewards the subscriber to this optional service with his own instance in which others can enjoy.
Other players could enter the instance, interact with NPCs and even particpate in a player created "dungeon" with developer randomized loot. Obviously kinks would have to be worked out to prevent farming/ balance issues.
The structure or area can still be damaged/ destroyed on the outside like DAoC, but cannot be controlled by other players. The death penalty for the player is loss in time to rebuild, and the money sink of rebuilding and rehiring NPCs. The spoils of war for the raiding party would be loot, faction reputation (that perhaps may influence the cost of your own building and maintaining upkeep), maybe some NPCs that maybe available for hire.
CoV bases are a start, but the fact that you had to be in a supergroup and have little contribution to a base other than prestige points is disheartening.
What devs no doubt have to wrestle with in their world. Ok one or two player run castles are fine, but how do we deal with 5,000 per server?
The general concensus among the NWN community seems to be that many of the player-made modules kick the crap out of the official campaign created by the professionals within the company. Many other, non-MMORPG games are also seeing players highly preferring some sort of mod over the official thing. Most adventure games (I hesitate to use the term 'RPG') have simple and extremely repetitive storylines to provide some sort of reasoning for a totally linear hack n' slash fest.
ok. I can agree with that. In the world of single-player and multi-player-single-player-hosted games, there is some GREAT content. I've played many of them and liked a lot of them. Given that, on average, i still think the quality is tad below professional level, because the same levels of quality control are not implemented. And the quality control you put into the dev process, the slower the rate of content production.... has nothing to do with talent, ability, desire, etc. Game companies do not have a lock on talent. But it's just basic software development principles... more quality = more time.I just think that in the mmo world, it's gonna have to come about from player actions instead of external toolsets. I think the toolsets will be a plus over the current situation, and really help until that next generation is achieved.
I've got a few more examples in mind that might make my point clearer. Consider mobs. Someone mentioned animal mobs, they have a desire to feed, they roam for grass, the predator animals kind of follow along. As you mentioned, Ryzom made a step in this direction, and it was GREAT, the most interesting part of that game imo. That's the kind of low-level laws of nature that the devs should be working on... not the creation of yet another dungeon crawl.
I just think the devs of an mmo game should spend their initial and ongoing time defining an implementing the low level laws of nature, and if they implement enough of them, and once that is combined with a sufficient number of players, then the possibilities are endless. You got a virtual world that will really hold interest and be entertaining.
Another example, consider morrowind's alchemy. I thought it was pretty cool. You got hundreds of items, each with different attributes, that are combined by some 'fantasy chemistry laws' to make potions. Here the devs created a low level implemention of the laws of nature, and the players make stuff within that frame of reference. If that was in an MMO, then over time, the devs could implement more detail into their laws of chemistry, maybe implement chemical processes in a patch, so you mix A and B over fire, you get C and D instead of the X and Y you got without fire....etc.
What about metallurgy? First they implement the low level laws, then in patches they implement machines, that allow different combinations of curvature and blade shape to be applied to the weapons, combined with choices to use either leather or silver for the handle, etc.
I'm also thinking erosion and dynamic landscapes. Cave X doesn't exist anymore because it caved in about 1/3 of the way in. We need shovels and a dig skill. Or we dug around some area and found a cave that wasn't there yesterday. A virtual mount St. Helen's exploded and now that lush beautiful area is covered in ash. etc. etc.
Ultimately, I see more promise with the devs creating and implementing more and more low-level physics, and low level laws of nature. It doesn't have to be real laws of nature, can be fantasy, and actually i think making fantasy laws of nature would be more interesting. Then combine all this with thousands of players doing things. And you got a virtual dynamic world to play in, that doesn't require development work from any user, (just the devs as described).
Phew. Where to begin?
1. Yes, players will consume content faster than developers can create it. Content is a supply and demand problem, and thus is amenable to being solved as such.
So far, developers have tried to solve it by trying to control demand. The whole idea of "character level" is a gating mechanism for content.
Instead, why not try to look for novel supply-side solutions? There are two big ones:
From a developer's perspective, I like the idea of procedurally-generated content. It minimizes storage requirements (at the cost of some processor time to generate the content when it's encountered), and keeps control of the content in the hands of the developers so there's no problem with needing to check new content for viruses or exploits or other badness.
There are several efforts under way that will use this method to provide content. The highest-profile case right now is Will Wright's upcoming Spore, but Infinity: The Quest for Earth is already doing some amazing things with procedurally-generated worlds.
Still, even procedural content will pall eventually as players ring the changes on all the generation modes. Ultimately the largest source of content is, as Nathan observes, players themselves.
2. As someone who enjoys coming up with design concepts, over the years since SWG launched I proposed numerous enhancements for it and for MMORPGs that respect the way that SWG used to accommodate different playstyles.
Among those ideas were four of the exact same things Nathan suggested in his article:
There's no way I was the first person to push these ideas, but it's intruiging to me that I happened to push on each of these four concepts... and all three of these concepts are together again in one essay.
(Nathan, have you seen my Greatest Hits compilation message that holds links to the 40 or so best ideas I came up with for SWG? You might find some other article-worthy concepts in there....)
Which brings me to:
3. I've recently been pushing some other ideas I think MMORPGs need to try, too, like games without character levels, and permadeath, and real non-combat content... and hey! those were recent "Out of the Box" columns, too! So either these are all just ideas whose time has come, or Nathan and I happen to think remarkably alike, or... well.
If the next "Out of the Box" column duplicates a mini-essay I just wrote a couple of days ago about how raiding is not a perfect idea for end game "content" because phat lewt shouldn't be the only end-game reward, I'm gonna start thinking something fishy's going on here...
...well, right after I feel pleased that these ideas are getting some public attention, that is.
--Flatfingers
Also, next week's Outside the Box is about alternate social structures, but I do make reference to raids... It's not surprising that two people disappointed with the same industry would have the same comments on how to fix it, either. I eagerly welcome you to our ongoing discussion of how to bear the MMORPG market from this painful adolescence into a matured state of game play options, lasting content, and more player input.