I should expand on that. Yes, the game had it's awesome moments like the crafting, and professions that made it really easy for a simple man or women to make their way in the galaxy. Great housing, great ship that was a house in space basically. Great grouping experiences. But it also had it's bad moments with players constantly complaining about balance issues and feeling like they were being ignored. When the main designer left who wanted to make Jedi rare in the first place and for it to take years to unlock Jedi, the game really went down hill as most players dropped their professions to grind Jedi.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
No, I would probably not play a game like this. I don't like fantasy stories where magic is rare either. Rather than magic being 'respected, I want to see it logically integrated into the world, with lots of functional non-combat spells. In a world which has magic, it should be used for farming, raising animals, crafting, and everything else.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Definitely. Not only is its use a crutch for bad world builders ("why does this work? Magic."), but when it's on every corner I find myself struggling to get immersed into the actual world, hence my preference for no-magic playstyles in games like Skyrim.
What I'm really dying for is a proper non-content free sandbox in a historical setting, but rare magic would do almost as well.
Yes, in fact I would actively seek out the opportunity to try a full-fledged MMORPG without magic.
Instead, focuses could be given to different fighting weapons/styles to give variety. Japanese Samurai fought much differently than did the Knights Templar, and with much different weaponry.
the only problem I see is developers aren't creative enough to give variety any other way
a game with a warrior, rogue and hunter, would get boring really fast
That could be a problem. I think developers have been getting more creative especial the action combat ones. Yeah a typical round based MMORPG might get boring with no magic.
the only problem I see is developers aren't creative enough to give variety any other way
a game with a warrior, rogue and hunter, would get boring really fast
That could be a problem. I think developers have been getting more creative especial the action combat ones. Yeah a typical round based MMORPG might get boring with no magic.
Implementing styles ala DAoC could go a long way towards alleviating that. Not sure why other MMORPGs never picked up on the idea. Different combat actions opened up different maneuvers if you started the chain in time.
Couple that with multiple, historically-inspired weapons and fighting styles, and you could go crazy with variety.
Magic or no magic I would love to see a game set in an industrial revolution and/or steampunk style setting. The reason I mention that, is that if lack of magic translating to lack of character variety is a concern. Character variety is easy to address with or without magic in such a setting.
______________________
With a more historically accurate and realistic setting I would focus on colonialism. Settlers coming over to a new land and colonizing it. You have piracy, building, firearms, but also natives who use stealth and more primitive weaponry. Players could work with or against the various native tribes and even get adopted into them. You could work with or against the various colonial powers and have republics vs. monarchies be a major theme among colonial powers. And there would be at least one major pirate faction as well.
I think a fictitious setting would work best in that you would want all the factions to be present within the relatively small area of a game map.
______________________
With a more steampunky setting I would focus more on technology as the vessel of customization. Highly customizable weapons. Power armor options. Vehicular gameplay. A lot of directions you can go with that.
______________________
I think the historically accurate one with magic and dark fantasy elements would be about my ideal MMO setting but I would still love it without magic.
I do kind of think the high fantasy in a medieval setting thing is starting to get a bit worn out. And the alternative offered up is often settings with inconsistent tech levels (Bows alongside cars and robots like in ArcheAge or World or Warcraft.) or straight space age sci-fi. There are other interesting periods of history that could make a great game setting with or without magic. And so far the only games I've played that have really done that are Fable 2 and 3.
I like the idea of making magic rare, or at least hard to obtain along with some sort of limitations that prevent spamming the same firebolt over and over again.
Some games really kill the immersion with stuff like this. Every NPC and story arc treats every character like the world's savior. A person with that kind of power should be one of a kind, but in the MMO world there's several thousand (or million) people with the same abilities. So yeah, the idea of giving players some individuality would be a plus for me.
The challenge really comes down to balance and making the game at least somewhat fair. It wouldn't be very fair if 12 people out of 400,000 were the only ones throwing lightning around and another 7 could resurrect other players.
I always thought the way FF7 handled magic was interesting in that you could only use what you equipped, and the available slots were generally limited (ignoring the OP materias). I think something like this, combined with rarity and high casting costs could be cool, provided that the game doesn't rely on their availability to be playable. There would have to be a lot going on outside the magic system to keep things fun, obviously.
Yes, absolutely, it's what I "thought" lord of the rings online would be.
If they had really made a true LOtR game, the first thing would have been to NOT have hobbit or elf player characters. Even dwarfs are very limit, but they are known to travel at least.
Then all medias and forum posters would have cried about the lack of race variety... would have cried about not being able to be Frodo or Legolas... etc...
I would have been ok with that. I would have also been ok with some outside the box design ideas that accommodated players making those races. I doubt most players would want that though.
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Hell no lol. I love magic in MMO's. The only classes I enjoy playing use magic. I find physical damage incredibly boring. So for me it just wouldn't work. The RP and immersion factors aren't important to me as much as my own personal fun is important. Besides, games with a lot of magic make it work within their story and lore so it makes complete sense (WoW, GW2, etc.).
Yes, absolutely, it's what I "thought" lord of the rings online would be.
If they had really made a true LOtR game, the first thing would have been to NOT have hobbit or elf player characters. Even dwarfs are very limit, but they are known to travel at least.
Then all medias and forum posters would have cried about the lack of race variety... would have cried about not being able to be Frodo or Legolas... etc...
My idea to create race rarity in a game is twofold.
1) Create a paywall for races:
a) free for human b) $10 for dwarf or elf c) $20 for hobbit or half-elf etc
and
d) free to be a warrior e) $10 to be a magic caster f) $20 to be a healer etc
Or
2) You have to hit a certain level in human before you can make an alt of a higher tier, then you need to reach a certain level in that to reach the next tier, same with classes. This will institute an in-game rarity to certain races and classes or a time sink needed. The classes could be balanced so people wouldn't bitch about P2W but instead bitch about money.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
LOTRO actually started really well in my opinion. All of their decisions had solid in-game rationale.
First off, magic was rare at the start. If you read the "loremaster" skill descriptions they were less magic users and more battle chemists. They may have been hurling fireballs but the rationale is they were using chemical reactions that allowed them to create a burning object to hurl, not that they just conjured one with magic.
Minstrals were rationalized by health being called "morale". They weren't magically making wounds disappear. They were raising your spirits to encourage you to fight on.
In terms of racial make-up. Player characters are always exceptional. I do agree that there should be less hobbits outside the Shire and Breeland. But having them be player characters is fine when you consider player characters are meant to be exceptional, not part of the common rabble. Also at launch humans could play every single class including the human-only captain class. Other races... more limited. Every race had the ability to create a party of only their race that held all essential roles (Which is something I support heavily) and every race held the classes that were based on iconic characters of their race but you wouldn't be playing a hobbit champion or a dwarven burglar.
Where they really veered off the path is with the "rune-keeper" AKA the "lore-breaker". This was a desperate attempt to justify a true magic-user class, and IMO never should have been done.
Hell no lol. I love magic in MMO's. The only classes I enjoy playing use magic. I find physical damage incredibly boring. So for me it just wouldn't work. The RP and immersion factors aren't important to me as much as my own personal fun is important. Besides, games with a lot of magic make it work within their story and lore so it makes complete sense (WoW, GW2, etc.).
As someone who generally plays "squishies" I highly disagree that magic is needed to create a role that plays the same way. In terms of playstyle rather than theme, why could a chemist or grenadier not be built to fulfill a role that feels like a caster?
I often find worlds without magic rather dull. You are then left to technology for almost everything. In fantasy settings that amounts to bows, swords, axes, etc. Magic opens up a lot of possibilities like teleportation, levitation, water breathing, illusion, and many other things. The area where the magic really shines is in utility spells. It's too bad most casters in today's games play simply like any other ranged combat class.
I find the amount of "No" answers really surprising. I like magic based settings but that doesn't mean I won't give another setting a chance. A good world builder can take any setting and make it super interesting to the point you shouldn't care if you can play a wizard or not because there is bound to be at least one character archetype that resonates with you.
If people are going to say "No, I would never play a setting without magic!" Without even really knowing what game or setting they are talking about that explains a lot on why we get the same WoW clones over and over and over.
Of course there are many sci-fi universes that have riveting settings without magic (EVE Online, Halo etc.) But also you have steampunk and pirate themed games like Pirates of The Burning Sea without magic, and while PoTBS didn't build the world that well in terms of lore, the setting was nevertheless very enjoyable. I can only imagine what such a setting would be like in the hands of a great world builder.
I don't want magic to be a rare option. I want it to be difficult and expensive (in-game money), and very challenging to attain the highest skills and spells.
In fact, I think that all specialties (tanks, Rangers, any and all) should be challenging and difficult to reach the top.
I also think that death, diseases, curses, etc., should knock the top levels of achievement down a little. A challenge to stay at the top.
What I'd like to see is a much more complicated system of specific skills and stats for subsections of any actions to succeed, and how well it succeeds. That way there are a lot of options on how, specifically, a character can be reduced in effectiveness on only a subset of actions, not on the whole of said character.
I find the amount of "No" answers really surprising. I like magic based settings but that doesn't mean I won't give another setting a chance. A good world builder can take any setting and make it super interesting to the point you shouldn't care if you can play a wizard or not because there is bound to be at least one character archetype that resonates with you.
If people are going to say "No, I would never play a setting without magic!" Without even really knowing what game or setting they are talking about that explains a lot on why we get the same WoW clones over and over and over.
Of course there are many sci-fi universes that have riveting settings without magic (EVE Online, Halo etc.) But also you have steampunk and pirate themed games like Pirates of The Burning Sea without magic, and while PoTBS didn't build the world that well in terms of lore, the setting was nevertheless very enjoyable. I can only imagine what such a setting would be like in the hands of a great world builder.
Some of the most fun stuff to play are the oddball extras. Throwing explosion potions, technician stuff, etc. Give a lot of things to do in a world built for doing lots of things, and you have a whole lot of fun.
I find the amount of "No" answers really surprising. I like magic based settings but that doesn't mean I won't give another setting a chance. A good world builder can take any setting and make it super interesting to the point you shouldn't care if you can play a wizard or not because there is bound to be at least one character archetype that resonates with you.
If people are going to say "No, I would never play a setting without magic!" Without even really knowing what game or setting they are talking about that explains a lot on why we get the same WoW clones over and over and over.
Of course there are many sci-fi universes that have riveting settings without magic (EVE Online, Halo etc.) But also you have steampunk and pirate themed games like Pirates of The Burning Sea without magic, and while PoTBS didn't build the world that well in terms of lore, the setting was nevertheless very enjoyable. I can only imagine what such a setting would be like in the hands of a great world builder.
After playing Kingdom Come: Deliverance, I would love to see a historical setting for an MMORPG. A new title set in the Caribbean would also tickle my fancy, if the ship combat were associated with group crews and exploration of islands with hostile natives or hostile competitors would be amazing if the team had a great world builder.
Privateers, pirates, and the blurry lines between the two would make for great guild/faction-based conflict.
In fairness, are you actually advocating a true no magic system, or just one where the "mage class" is rare?
Either. I want to play a world built by a good world-builder. If the person who makes the world can draw me into it, then I'll play what they make. Plentiful, rare, or non-existent magic.
I mean D&D is sort of a rare magic world compared with most MMOs. For instance in our current campaign I am a wizard. Full caster, not much else I can do other than craft, cast, and make knowledge checks for the party. At level 1 with an intelligence of 20 I can cast three level 0 spells and three 1st level spells per in-game day. That means the martial characters do most the work.
But for instance, in one encounter I surprised 6 enemies coming to fight our 5 party members with a color spray. 5 of them failed their will saves and were knocked unconscious turning the 5v6 into a 5v1.
6 spells a day. Well... I make it work for me.
I really wouldn't mind playing an MMO using a similar system if dungeons were made unpredictable so that I didn't know what spells to prepare and where to use them coming into the dungeon based on the guide everyone uses. Considering how to use those spells is actually quite fun.
In fairness, are you actually advocating a true no magic system, or just one where the "mage class" is rare?
Either. I want to play a world built by a good world-builder. If the person who makes the world can draw me into it, then I'll play what they make. Plentiful, rare, or non-existent magic.
I mean D&D is sort of a rare magic world compared with most MMOs. For instance in our current campaign I am a wizard. Full caster, not much else I can do other than craft, cast, and make knowledge checks for the party. At level 1 with an intelligence of 20 I can cast three level 0 spells and three 1st level spells per in-game day. That means the martial characters do most the work.
But for instance, in one encounter I surprised 6 enemies coming to fight our 5 party members with a color spray. 5 of them failed their will saves and were knocked unconscious turning the 5v6 into a 5v1.
6 spells a day. Well... I make it work for me.
I really wouldn't mind playing an MMO using a similar system if dungeons were made unpredictable so that I didn't know what spells to prepare and where to use them coming into the dungeon based on the guide everyone uses. Considering how to use those spells is actually quite fun.
The limits on how many time you can cast a spell from a table top game to a mmo isnt the same thing as playing in a Low magic fantasy setting.The amount you can cast spells from a table top game wouldnt translate very well to a video game especially a MMO (Baulder Gate and those kind of games are excluded from the rule).
A low fantasy setting would be be where magic is very rare, people may talk about it but no one see it every day. In a good low magic setting player would more likely not be magic users at all as they would be very rare. When magic is encountered it wouldn't be very powerful compared to a high Fantasy setting.
A good example of low fantasy that everyone know is "Game of Thrones" The world of Hyboria is a very good example of a Low Fantasy setting (Conan the Barb). The games "For Honor"and "Hell Blade" would be good examples as well.
Dungeons and Dragons like most Tolkeinesque games are ususally played in a very high fantasy setting (Which is unusual since "The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings" would also be a good example of a low fantasy). Forgoten Realms is very high Fantasy, Never Winter (also FR) also a High Fantasy...etc. There are some Dm that will create a low fantasy setting, however.
Yea, like I said before, a Low Fantasy setting could work if done right. As long as there is still good choices of range Dps other than Archer, and you would still have offensive Dps, Tank, and you would have to come up with some way for Healer to function with out healing spells that made sense to the setting but could still heal as well. It can be done
If at first you dont succeed, call it version 1.0
I wouldn't mind a game that had everyone start out with no magic, but spread throughout the world are orbs that imbue people with a line of magic like lightning, water, plant, etc. Locations are totally random, and maybe there are only about 10+% of the population. If new people join, another orb randomly spawns.
Maybe one is found in a lake outside the starting town, the other in a cave full of demons at the end of the known world. It makes exploration worthwhile.
And maybe to even it up, there could be other types of orbs for melee and crafting, and you're only able to get 1 orb. I guess it would be more of a random extra specializations in addition to the usual specializations people can take.
Comments
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
What I'm really dying for is a proper non-content free sandbox in a historical setting, but rare magic would do almost as well.
Instead, focuses could be given to different fighting weapons/styles to give variety. Japanese Samurai fought much differently than did the Knights Templar, and with much different weaponry.
Couple that with multiple, historically-inspired weapons and fighting styles, and you could go crazy with variety.
______________________
With a more historically accurate and realistic setting I would focus on colonialism. Settlers coming over to a new land and colonizing it. You have piracy, building, firearms, but also natives who use stealth and more primitive weaponry. Players could work with or against the various native tribes and even get adopted into them. You could work with or against the various colonial powers and have republics vs. monarchies be a major theme among colonial powers. And there would be at least one major pirate faction as well.
I think a fictitious setting would work best in that you would want all the factions to be present within the relatively small area of a game map.
______________________
With a more steampunky setting I would focus more on technology as the vessel of customization. Highly customizable weapons. Power armor options. Vehicular gameplay. A lot of directions you can go with that.
______________________
I think the historically accurate one with magic and dark fantasy elements would be about my ideal MMO setting but I would still love it without magic.
I do kind of think the high fantasy in a medieval setting thing is starting to get a bit worn out. And the alternative offered up is often settings with inconsistent tech levels (Bows alongside cars and robots like in ArcheAge or World or Warcraft.) or straight space age sci-fi. There are other interesting periods of history that could make a great game setting with or without magic. And so far the only games I've played that have really done that are Fable 2 and 3.
Some games really kill the immersion with stuff like this. Every NPC and story arc treats every character like the world's savior. A person with that kind of power should be one of a kind, but in the MMO world there's several thousand (or million) people with the same abilities. So yeah, the idea of giving players some individuality would be a plus for me.
The challenge really comes down to balance and making the game at least somewhat fair. It wouldn't be very fair if 12 people out of 400,000 were the only ones throwing lightning around and another 7 could resurrect other players.
I always thought the way FF7 handled magic was interesting in that you could only use what you equipped, and the available slots were generally limited (ignoring the OP materias). I think something like this, combined with rarity and high casting costs could be cool, provided that the game doesn't rely on their availability to be playable. There would have to be a lot going on outside the magic system to keep things fun, obviously.
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My idea to create race rarity in a game is twofold.
1) Create a paywall for races:
a) free for human
b) $10 for dwarf or elf
c) $20 for hobbit or half-elf
etc
and
d) free to be a warrior
e) $10 to be a magic caster
f) $20 to be a healer
etc
Or
2) You have to hit a certain level in human before you can make an alt of a higher tier, then you need to reach a certain level in that to reach the next tier, same with classes. This will institute an in-game rarity to certain races and classes or a time sink needed. The classes could be balanced so people wouldn't bitch about P2W but instead bitch about money.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
First off, magic was rare at the start. If you read the "loremaster" skill descriptions they were less magic users and more battle chemists. They may have been hurling fireballs but the rationale is they were using chemical reactions that allowed them to create a burning object to hurl, not that they just conjured one with magic.
Minstrals were rationalized by health being called "morale". They weren't magically making wounds disappear. They were raising your spirits to encourage you to fight on.
In terms of racial make-up. Player characters are always exceptional. I do agree that there should be less hobbits outside the Shire and Breeland. But having them be player characters is fine when you consider player characters are meant to be exceptional, not part of the common rabble. Also at launch humans could play every single class including the human-only captain class. Other races... more limited. Every race had the ability to create a party of only their race that held all essential roles (Which is something I support heavily) and every race held the classes that were based on iconic characters of their race but you wouldn't be playing a hobbit champion or a dwarven burglar.
Where they really veered off the path is with the "rune-keeper" AKA the "lore-breaker". This was a desperate attempt to justify a true magic-user class, and IMO never should have been done.
If people are going to say "No, I would never play a setting without magic!" Without even really knowing what game or setting they are talking about that explains a lot on why we get the same WoW clones over and over and over.
Of course there are many sci-fi universes that have riveting settings without magic (EVE Online, Halo etc.) But also you have steampunk and pirate themed games like Pirates of The Burning Sea without magic, and while PoTBS didn't build the world that well in terms of lore, the setting was nevertheless very enjoyable. I can only imagine what such a setting would be like in the hands of a great world builder.
In fact, I think that all specialties (tanks, Rangers, any and all) should be challenging and difficult to reach the top.
I also think that death, diseases, curses, etc., should knock the top levels of achievement down a little. A challenge to stay at the top.
What I'd like to see is a much more complicated system of specific skills and stats for subsections of any actions to succeed, and how well it succeeds. That way there are a lot of options on how, specifically, a character can be reduced in effectiveness on only a subset of actions, not on the whole of said character.
Once upon a time....
Give a lot of things to do in a world built for doing lots of things, and you have a whole lot of fun.
Once upon a time....
Privateers, pirates, and the blurry lines between the two would make for great guild/faction-based conflict.
I mean D&D is sort of a rare magic world compared with most MMOs. For instance in our current campaign I am a wizard. Full caster, not much else I can do other than craft, cast, and make knowledge checks for the party. At level 1 with an intelligence of 20 I can cast three level 0 spells and three 1st level spells per in-game day. That means the martial characters do most the work.
But for instance, in one encounter I surprised 6 enemies coming to fight our 5 party members with a color spray. 5 of them failed their will saves and were knocked unconscious turning the 5v6 into a 5v1.
6 spells a day. Well... I make it work for me.
I really wouldn't mind playing an MMO using a similar system if dungeons were made unpredictable so that I didn't know what spells to prepare and where to use them coming into the dungeon based on the guide everyone uses. Considering how to use those spells is actually quite fun.
A low fantasy setting would be be where magic is very rare, people may talk about it but no one see it every day. In a good low magic setting player would more likely not be magic users at all as they would be very rare. When magic is encountered it wouldn't be very powerful compared to a high Fantasy setting.
A good example of low fantasy that everyone know is "Game of Thrones" The world of Hyboria is a very good example of a Low Fantasy setting (Conan the Barb). The games "For Honor"and "Hell Blade" would be good examples as well.
Dungeons and Dragons like most Tolkeinesque games are ususally played in a very high fantasy setting (Which is unusual since "The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings" would also be a good example of a low fantasy). Forgoten Realms is very high Fantasy, Never Winter (also FR) also a High Fantasy...etc. There are some Dm that will create a low fantasy setting, however.
Yea, like I said before, a Low Fantasy setting could work if done right. As long as there is still good choices of range Dps other than Archer, and you would still have offensive Dps, Tank, and you would have to come up with some way for Healer to function with out healing spells that made sense to the setting but could still heal as well. It can be done
If at first you dont succeed, call it version 1.0
Maybe one is found in a lake outside the starting town, the other in a cave full of demons at the end of the known world. It makes exploration worthwhile.
And maybe to even it up, there could be other types of orbs for melee and crafting, and you're only able to get 1 orb. I guess it would be more of a random extra specializations in addition to the usual specializations people can take.