Nerf, the purpose of this thread is NOT to attack the posters.
It is to dig into the problem that many of us speculate about.
The poster gave his reason, leave it at that.
We can't even say for sure if this is truely cheating at this point as we can not really say there is a difference between someone handing you 1000gp or you buying them and then someone handing them to you.
In my example,
DID I CHEAT WHEN MY RL FRIEND GAVE ME 200GP WHEN I FIRST LOGGED INTO DAoC? IF NOT HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM BUYING CURRENCY?
I usually play my first main character in a MMORP in a 'legit' fashion. After that, I am just not that interested in the 'Work' involved in farming for cash for my other characters. I shortcut the process and buy currency. Mostly from IGE, a very reliable company, in my experience.
The sad part is that as a MMORPG matures, the economy inflates to levels far beyond the ability of a newer character to farm to buy even common items. This can be seen in WoW right now. It is not because masses of players are buying currency and flooding the market. It is because of the masses of level 60s that have the currency to buy out the market items and then set the prices.
Other thing is, with all the 60's, their low-level alts are always uber twinked with Gold, Gear, and Enchants. Nothing a 'straight' player can do to compete with that sort of twinking.
So, I don't really mind, or even want to know, if player XYZ got his gear from buying Gold, Twinking, or Playing. It is, after all, just a game and the objective is to have fun. If having fun for one means farming for Coins, so be it. If having fun means bypassing that step to get more into the other aspects, that is fine too.
It is all good. Just have fun.
P.S. If game companies, such as Blizzard, really wanted to stop the BUYING of Gold, Accounts, and Items, they could easilly do so (note, I said buying, not selling). But, they choose not to. I personally know of no instance where someone who only purchased Gold has ever been Warned, Suspended, or Banned. Nor has any MMORPG forum I have ever been watching reported any punishment for BUYERS of Gold, Items, or Accounts. Something to think about.
Originally posted by Shoal The sad part is that as a MMORPG matures, the economy inflates to levels far beyond the ability of a newer character to farm to buy even common items. This can be seen in WoW right now. It is not because masses of players are buying currency and flooding the market. It is because of the masses of level 60s that have the currency to buy out the market items and then set the prices. Other thing is, with all the 60's, their low-level alts are always uber twinked with Gold, Gear, and Enchants. Nothing a 'straight' player can do to compete with that sort of twinking. Me and my wife noticed this about a year ago. Everyone had a lvl 60 so prices went up proportionatly. Even low level greens where very expensive when compared to release. Again a community driven problem. How can a company control the item inflation if it puts the economy in the hands of the player? So, I don't really mind, or even want to know, if player XYZ got his gear from buying Gold, Twinking, or Playing. It is, after all, just a game and the objective is to have fun. If having fun for one means farming for Coins, so be it. If having fun means bypassing that step to get more into the other aspects, that is fine too. It is all good. Just have fun. P.S. If game companies, such as Blizzard, really wanted to stop the BUYING of Gold, Accounts, and Items, they could easilly do so (note, I said buying, not selling). But, they choose not to. I personally know of no instance where someone who only purchased Gold has ever been Warned, Suspended, or Banned. Nor has any MMORPG forum I have ever been watching reported any punishment for BUYERS of Gold, Items, or Accounts. Something to think about.
Excellent point, now that you mention it, I have never heard of anyone being banned for "buying". Companies usually ban farmers, although almost ALL of them drag their feet about it. Mostly they look for exploiters and third party aps that truely damage the game.
A lot of the original UO power sellers were banned because they were accussed of duping their gold. No proof, just a lot of customers saying they admitted it to them over ICQ, aim, MSN. But that's a whole nother deal. I've never heard of any legit farmers or customers being punished. I think WoW actually condones farming.
Part of the fact is obviously that our time ( developed world ), is worth something like 10-20 times more then that of say people in china, if you count pure money.
This difference in wealth has, among others, one effect.
Buying gold or plats or whatever, is really bloody cheap.
Instead of farming 10 hours I can work one and BUY 10 hours work from someone in china, who just happens to have a work that is farming.
I have yet to do it because I am one of thoose few who thinks farming is somewhat fun, being an old Diablo2 player who has ran probably tens of thousands of Mephisto/Spindle runs, I do not neccesarily see it as a bad thing.
But, most people with time constraints do not find it at all amusing to spend their online time farming money, most find their RL work a lot more fun even, then working online like that.
One might argue that then they should not have access to uber gear, but the option is there.
And in most games the really uber gear is nodrop/notrade so no amount of gold will ever get you that gear.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Torak Hi all, I am interested in a mature discussion on why someone would buy currency for the game they play. I'm sure there are all sorts of reasons. I am really interested in the explaination from players who HAVE purchased currency. I am not interest in judging these players, I would like to know "why" from them. I really don't want this to turn into a blasting of anyone who does "admit" I am very interested in the individual motivation. Maybe from people who have not purchased but have been tempted. Why where you tempted? What stopped you? It is an interesting topic. Personally I do not condone the use of currency companies but that is my personal choice. I am interested in why someone else would. Look at my post history, I am not looking to "flame" anyone. I do not "attack" other posters. (although I do have some strong oppinions, you know what they say about opinions.....) So please, keep it civil, don't judge and don't attack. Lets get to the "why?" EDIT Also, did you purchase currency from a 3rd party OR from an ingame service like SOE / EQII or other games that DO offer the ingame service. Does the game mechanic require it? What motivated you to purchase it? (thanks Pantastic)
I will try to stay focused on the OP's topic.
I have bought Gold from a 3rd party seller on Ebay for WoW.
Why? More than any one reason, as follows;
1) Boredom. Farming = Boring, so I guess I might fall into the category of the various "lazy" posts. I am an IT professional that works roughly 55 hours a week. I love games, I love gaming, I like playing games, I like having fun when I play games. Farming to me is not fun. In fact it is what drives me from most MMO's to try another until some item I feel I "need" stops me from having fun until I can farm enough gold to get it, etc. Standard BS excuse. I buy some Currency, I continue playing the parts of the game I enjoy.
2) My sister, her husband, and my dad and soon after my son and one of my daughters started playing WoW also. I had a 60 Hunter and was working on leveling a Mage/Tailor for times when I couldn't get a group. I had just thrown more than a little cash into grinding Tailor to 300 the moment my mage hit 35. When my family joined I wanted to help them out, so I sent each Runecloth bags. 8 Each. I also included with the 8th Bag 20g. After doing this I only had about 70g. I then got my faction to where I could buy my epic mount. I buy some Currency, buy my bea-u-tiful Winterspring Cat, and return to playing.
3) Time. I like playing video games. I also like fishing, Hiking, going four-wheeling after a nice rain, sitting at a local cafe' watching the truly gorgeous women that live in my area, going on dates, watching movies, playing golf, I help coach a little-league baseball team, but most of all... I am a Gamer! So when I do set aside time to play I wanna play. I do not want to clean Silithus AGAIN for loot, or sit around waiting in queue for a BG or "60 Hunter LFG Baron pst". That's not fun. $20 bucks, couple hundred gold, I move on.
Do I regret the purchase? Hmm. No. Do I regret all the time I wasted when $20 would have saved me a weekend of monotony? F*K yes I do.
You play games your way, I play mine. As a side note, the money was a last ditch effort to try making myself enjoy a game I not longer did; for the sake of playing with my family. I have since quit WoW because my then 35 Mage is now 60 also, and I really do not want to do it all over again a third time. But...Think of the Mastercard Commercials.... think of it ending with the "Grouping with your Sister, Father and Daughter, and looting your Beaststalkers Boots-- Priceless" Purchasing online currency allowed that for me. Flame away
Also the question was what is the difference between me playing 1 hour a day and buying 100 gold, or me playing 10 hours a day and farming 100 gold. Same amount of money for me, same time frame. So you are saying that people who play enough to farm money ruin the economy? I sure as hell havent bought more money than half the players can farm in the time frame I use it in.
There is no difference, you either have to admit that farming ruins the economy, which throws out your that whole arguement, disappear from the thread, or try to justify how farming 100 gold in a 24 hour period is different than buying 100 gold in the same period. You gonna try and say that it's different? That if I logged on for one hour in one day and bought 100 gold is different than me logging in for 10 hours in one day and farming 100 gold?
I have to admit nothing. Please don't try to dismiss my points before they are being made. You presume to know every point before I even write it. Such an attitude shows a lack of both politeness and respect.
I can think of several weaknesses in your argument.
Firstly, if you started with a level 25 WoW character and paid for 100 gold, you would be an exceptionally well equipped level 25 character and would enjoy a vast advantage over other people your level.
However, if instead you went out and spent several weeks farming for the same amount, then you would still make that 100gp. However it is very likely that whilst you were farming you would have also gained some experience points (as the mobs that drop the best kit tend to be higher level). Hence, at the end of that fortnight, whilst you would have still made the 100gp, you may have risen to level 35. Now there is a big difference between a level 25 character with 100gp worth of kit and a level 35 with the same. One enjoys a large and unfair advantage, the other enjoys quite a minor advantage.
Secondly, consider the matter of scale. It has already been pointed out that many players find farming the same mobs over and over again to be very boring. Hence, even in farming heavy games like WoW, many players, will limit the amount of farming they will do. They will break it up with a few more fun activities - chatting to friends, pvp, visiting an instance or whatever. However when someone is being paid for this activity then the brakes are off. A professional farmer could easily farm for 8 or more hours a day, every day. Hence alot more farming occurs.
Consider the following situation, which I believe roughly mimics reality
10% of level 25 characters are alts of level 50+ characters, and have received a large amount of twinks 10% of level 25 characters have been gifted a large sum of money by a friend, and hence have exceptional gear. 30% of level 25 characters have not been twinked and would not buy gold under any circumstances. 30% of level 25 characters would buy gold immediately if it was available to them 20% of level 25 characters would buy gold if pressured to do so to keep up with those around them
Now in a game with no gold buying, only 10%+10%=20% of level 25 characters are twinked. Yep, they enjoy an unfair advantage, but there's only an average of one per party. Not enough to put alot of pressure on other people to keep up.
Now gold becomes regularly available. Over the next few months, 30% of players go out and buy it. Now 50% of characters are twinked. The pressure starts to mount. Characters who haven't been twinked start seeing their performance drop relative to those around them, and find it harder to get parties. An additional 20% go out and buy gold - just in order to keep up.
After a short amount of time, we have reached a situation where 70% of characters are heavily twinked in some fashion. The players of the remaining 30% are looked down on for their inferior characters, whilst the twinks boast how skillful they are "3 battlegrounds and not a single death - I must be good" they rationalise.
I don't buy gold myself. However there is no way I want to be put under the sort of pressure that a heavily twinked game creates, and, as I explained above, this situation is substantially exasperated by gold buyers.
The above post speaks of "advantage" in a mmorpg and to date, based on the games that I've played, I have no idea what that means.
It could mean the "advantage" to level faster. To that, I have to say, so what.
The only result of others advancing beyond you is that it'll make you feel badly. That counts for a lot though, so I understand, but it's not meaningful to the game.
The other concern might be something to do with PVP, but again, I conclude it to be meaningless. Someone beating you at PVP, that is above your level, shouldn't bother you at all, because it's based on the mathematics of the game and nothing else. It's as much an achievement as beating a baby to death.
Advancement toward the end of the game means what? Well, it means almost nothing as currently nothing changes in any of the games whether a person finishes or not.
So, until games are made in some way that makes play and play style count cheating is meaningless.
However, cheating does mean something to companies that make boring grind fests. It means that people will be able to move through their games faster than their projected average rate, and so the company will make less money.
Originally posted by JMoney95 I have bought currency, but legally through EVE's GTC system. Not from outside companies etc.
See, this person is rationalizing cheating. I wonder what other things he rationalizes.
Apparently Nerf09 is declaring that he is allowed to create additional rules for online games and that even the developers and publishers of the games cannot override Nerf09's personal rules. People like you are sad, you can't even come close to rationally discussing the topic, instead choosing to just shout CHEATER over and over again.
In case you missed it the first 2-3 times that I posted it, and didn't bother to actually read the material that you quoted where the guy you call a cheater mentions it, buying ISK in EVE using GTCs (you buy a card that's good for a month of play, then sell it to someome for ISK in-game) is completely and utterly legitimate. I don't mean 'you probably won't get banned for it', I mean the developers of the game come right out and say that it's perfectly fine to do it, and have their GMs enforce such trades if someome tries to back out of one.
How can it possibly be cheating if the people who created the game's rules, wrote the EULA, run the servers, and control who gets to play the game say that it's allowable behavior?
I have to admit nothing. Please don't try to dismiss my points before they are being made. You presume to know every point before I even write it. Such an attitude shows a lack of both politeness and respect.
I can think of several weaknesses in your argument.
Firstly, if you started with a level 25 WoW character and paid for 100 gold, you would be an exceptionally well equipped level 25 character and would enjoy a vast advantage over other people your level.
However, if instead you went out and spent several weeks farming for the same amount, then you would still make that 100gp. However it is very likely that whilst you were farming you would have also gained some experience points (as the mobs that drop the best kit tend to be higher level). Hence, at the end of that fortnight, whilst you would have still made the 100gp, you may have risen to level 35. Now there is a big difference between a level 25 character with 100gp worth of kit and a level 35 with the same. One enjoys a large and unfair advantage, the other enjoys quite a minor advantage.
Secondly, consider the matter of scale. It has already been pointed out that many players find farming the same mobs over and over again to be very boring. Hence, even in farming heavy games like WoW, many players, will limit the amount of farming they will do. They will break it up with a few more fun activities - chatting to friends, pvp, visiting an instance or whatever. However when someone is being paid for this activity then the brakes are off. A professional farmer could easily farm for 8 or more hours a day, every day. Hence alot more farming occurs.
Consider the following situation, which I believe roughly mimics reality
10% of level 25 characters are alts of level 50+ characters, and have received a large amount of twinks 10% of level 25 characters have been gifted a large sum of money by a friend, and hence have exceptional gear. 30% of level 25 characters have not been twinked and would not buy gold under any circumstances. 30% of level 25 characters would buy gold immediately if it was available to them 20% of level 25 characters would buy gold if pressured to do so to keep up with those around them
Now in a game with no gold buying, only 10%+10%=20% of level 25 characters are twinked. Yep, they enjoy an unfair advantage, but there's only an average of one per party. Not enough to put alot of pressure on other people to keep up.
Now gold becomes regularly available. Over the next few months, 30% of players go out and buy it. Now 50% of characters are twinked. The pressure starts to mount. Characters who haven't been twinked start seeing their performance drop relative to those around them, and find it harder to get parties. An additional 20% go out and buy gold - just in order to keep up.
After a short amount of time, we have reached a situation where 70% of characters are heavily twinked in some fashion. The players of the remaining 30% are looked down on for their inferior characters, whilst the twinks boast how skillful they are "3 battlegrounds and not a single death - I must be good" they rationalise.
I don't buy gold myself. However there is no way I want to be put under the sort of pressure that a heavily twinked game creates, and, as I explained above, this situation is substantially exasperated by gold buyers.
Sorry, that is speculation. There are no hard "facts" about anything when it comes to virtual trade other then the fact that 100's of millions of dollars are SPENT by players a year.
I could say 80% of all WoW players are idiots but I have nothing to back that statisic up besides my smart ars (just joking, WoW is a fine game)
I know my numbers are speculation - I was attempting to model my review of how mmorpg players think. Such a model, like all models of reality, is not perfect and is, of course, subject to amendment when new information becomes available.
However whilst it is an eashy shot to question the exact numbers I have used, I'm actually not too concerned by their accuracy to the second decimal place. Instead I'd be curious if you are able to confront the underlying points I am trying to make.
My post was designed to both clarify my position, and also confronted several of the arguments made here - namely that
i) Buying gold for my character doesn't harm anyone else ii) Buying gold has exactly the same game effect as farming but it is less boring.
I believe I have shown these both to be inaccurate.
I have clarified my position. Instead of trying to score cheap points, can you actually say which parts of my argument you agreee and disagree with? In particular could you answer the following questions:
1) Would you agree that this thread has demonstrated that, for various reasons, there are a certain proportion of players that will buy money as soon as it becomes available?
2) Would you agree that money buying increases the amount of money in the game and that this will cause inflation?
3) Would you agree that money buyers will be substantially better equipped than other people of their level, and that if they become common then this will put pressure on other people to keep up?
4) Would you agree that some games, such as L2 and FFXI, have already evolved to the point where there is a very large degree of pressure on new players to buy currency?
5) Can you understand how people would not want their favourite game to reach that situation?
If you accept all the above, then I would be curious if you could explain why your position is different from mine.
Originally posted by Antipathy I know my numbers are speculation - I was attempting to model my review of how mmorpg players think. Such a model, like all models of reality, is not perfect and is, of course, subject to amendment when new information becomes available.
However whilst it is an eashy shot to question the exact numbers I have used, I'm actually not too concerned by their accuracy to the second decimal place. Instead I'd be curious if you are able to confront the underlying points I am trying to make.
My post was designed to both clarify my position, and also confronted several of the arguments made here - namely that
i) Buying gold for my character doesn't harm anyone else ii) Buying gold has exactly the same game effect as farming but it is less boring.
I believe I have shown these both to be inaccurate.
I have clarified my position. Instead of trying to score cheap points, can you actually say which parts of my argument you agreee and disagree with? In particular could you answer the following questions:
1) Would you agree that this thread has demonstrated that, for various reasons, there are a certain proportion of players that will buy money as soon as it becomes available?
No, all it has shown is that a percentage WILL. It doesn't show they will as soon as it becomes availible
2) Would you agree that money buying increases the amount of money in the game and that this will cause inflation?
Personally, I'm not convinced of that. The farmers are doing the same thing a player does. They are not duplicating money. They are using the same mechanic a player does. I believe the perception of the players drives the prices up.
3) Would you agree that money buyers will be substantially better equipped than other people of their level, and that if they become common then this will put pressure on other people to keep up?
Situational. I have superior gear in L2 for my level however it took me a very long time. A player would need to spend in excess of 30 dollars to just to match my current grade. Not to mention the grade before. (lets say about 15 dollars for the last tier of equipment.) 4) Would you agree that some games, such as L2 and FFXI, have already evolved to the point where there is a very large degree of pressure on new players to buy currency?
No, from my ingame experience I have encountered very few money buyers. HOWEVER the vast majority of L2 players have been around and have high level characters. Money is a non - issue for them.
New players may based on the perception of the people who do not play the game. (L2 has a horrible reputation for bots and farmers) Also, new players may feel pressured to keep up with the best gear because the feel they will not be able to compete. Little do they know, after wasting money on D Grade equipment, that they will finish that tier rather quickly and need a higher tier. By not learning the market in the first place new players will become frustrated and quit. Veteran players are more then happy to explain NOT to waste money on low tier items. For whatever reasons new players CHOOSE to ignore them.
5) Can you understand how people would not want their favourite game to reach that situation?
Yes, I understand why people do not like farmers. I hate them. Again, for selfish reasons. They interupt my game time.
If you accept all the above, then I would be curious if you could explain why your position is different from mine.
Because I'm different from you and have different opinions The purpose of this thread was to explore the reasons 'WHY" people buy money NOT to justify it or condem it.
Originally posted by Antipathy I know my numbers are speculation - I was attempting to model my review of how mmorpg players think. Such a model, like all models of reality, is not perfect and is, of course, subject to amendment when new information becomes available.
However whilst it is an eashy shot to question the exact numbers I have used, I'm actually not too concerned by their accuracy to the second decimal place. Instead I'd be curious if you are able to confront the underlying points I am trying to make.
My post was designed to both clarify my position, and also confronted several of the arguments made here - namely that
i) Buying gold for my character doesn't harm anyone else ii) Buying gold has exactly the same game effect as farming but it is less boring.
I believe I have shown these both to be inaccurate.
I have clarified my position. Instead of trying to score cheap points, can you actually say which parts of my argument you agreee and disagree with? In particular could you answer the following questions:
1) Would you agree that this thread has demonstrated that, for various reasons, there are a certain proportion of players that will buy money as soon as it becomes available?
No, all it has shown is that a percentage WILL. It doesn't show they will as soon as it becomes availible
2) Would you agree that money buying increases the amount of money in the game and that this will cause inflation?
Personally, I'm not convinced of that. The farmers are doing the same thing a player does. They are not duplicating money. They are using the same mechanic a player does. I believe the perception of the players drives the prices up.
3) Would you agree that money buyers will be substantially better equipped than other people of their level, and that if they become common then this will put pressure on other people to keep up?
Situational. I have superior gear in L2 for my level however it took me a very long time. A player would need to spend in excess of 30 dollars to just to match my current grade. Not to mention the grade before. (lets say about 15 dollars for the last tier of equipment.) 4) Would you agree that some games, such as L2 and FFXI, have already evolved to the point where there is a very large degree of pressure on new players to buy currency?
No, from my ingame experience I have encountered very few money buyers. HOWEVER the vast majority of L2 players have been around and have high level characters. Money is a non - issue for them.
New players may based on the perception of the people who do not play the game. (L2 has a horrible reputation for bots and farmers) Also, new players may feel pressured to keep up with the best gear because the feel they will not be able to compete. Little do they know, after wasting money on D Grade equipment, that they will finish that tier rather quickly and need a higher tier. By not learning the market in the first place new players will become frustrated and quit. Veteran players are more then happy to explain NOT to waste money on low tier items. For whatever reasons new players CHOOSE to ignore them.
EDIT
It is adsolutely possible to work your way up through the grades of gear. However most newer players insist onhaving "top" D grade from the start. They become frustrated when they can not get it as soon as they are able to wear it (level 20) They do not want to settle for the lower end D grade gear. I personally am guilty of OVER charging for D grade gear because I know a less experienced player will buy it. (not scam mind you but sell for higher then the market price...its a player driven economy) Is that cheating? No, because its a free market. You could choose not to buy my goods and search elsewhere.
On team speak we talk about it alot....many of the veteran players do not understand why new players insist on having "top" D grade gear. They are the first to point out that you will need all your money for C grade which you will spend much more time in the D grade.
5) Can you understand how people would not want their favourite game to reach that situation?
Yes, I understand why people do not like farmers. I hate them. Again, for selfish reasons. They interupt my game time.
If you accept all the above, then I would be curious if you could explain why your position is different from mine.
Because I'm different from you and have different opinions The purpose of this thread was to explore the reasons 'WHY" people buy money NOT to justify it or condem it.
There is no question IMO that farmers are bad however doesn't the game designer have the responsibility to provide a mechanic that does not facilitate this activity? Why do game companies keep making grind games when in reality people do not really like the grind portion?
I have bought Gold from a 3rd party seller on Ebay for WoW.
Why? More than any one reason, as follows;
1) Boredom. Farming = Boring, so I guess I might fall into the category of the various "lazy" posts. I am an IT professional that works roughly 55 hours a week. I love games, I love gaming, I like playing games, I like having fun when I play games. Farming to me is not fun. In fact it is what drives me from most MMO's to try another until some item I feel I "need" stops me from having fun until I can farm enough gold to get it, etc. Standard BS excuse. I buy some Currency, I continue playing the parts of the game I enjoy.
2) My sister, her husband, and my dad and soon after my son and one of my daughters started playing WoW also. I had a 60 Hunter and was working on leveling a Mage/Tailor for times when I couldn't get a group. I had just thrown more than a little cash into grinding Tailor to 300 the moment my mage hit 35. When my family joined I wanted to help them out, so I sent each Runecloth bags. 8 Each. I also included with the 8th Bag 20g. After doing this I only had about 70g. I then got my faction to where I could buy my epic mount. I buy some Currency, buy my bea-u-tiful Winterspring Cat, and return to playing.
3) Time. I like playing video games. I also like fishing, Hiking, going four-wheeling after a nice rain, sitting at a local cafe' watching the truly gorgeous women that live in my area, going on dates, watching movies, playing golf, I help coach a little-league baseball team, but most of all... I am a Gamer! So when I do set aside time to play I wanna play. I do not want to clean Silithus AGAIN for loot, or sit around waiting in queue for a BG or "60 Hunter LFG Baron pst". That's not fun. $20 bucks, couple hundred gold, I move on.
Do I regret the purchase? Hmm. No. Do I regret all the time I wasted when $20 would have saved me a weekend of monotony? F*K yes I do.
You play games your way, I play mine. As a side note, the money was a last ditch effort to try making myself enjoy a game I not longer did; for the sake of playing with my family. I have since quit WoW because my then 35 Mage is now 60 also, and I really do not want to do it all over again a third time. But...Think of the Mastercard Commercials.... think of it ending with the "Grouping with your Sister, Father and Daughter, and looting your Beaststalkers Boots-- Priceless" Purchasing online currency allowed that for me. Flame away
See, we got two different personality type.
Me, after exhausting every effort to make the game more interesting and fun, FOR ME, I unsubscribe and no longer play.
YOU, this poster, after exhausting every effort to make a game more interesting, he doesnt unsubscribe like me, he throws MORE MONEY at the problem.
I think it would be interesting to note that I am a Republican. Gee, I wonder what party the, "YOU" 'throwing more money at the problem' guy is part of.
Originally posted by JMoney95 I have bought currency, but legally through EVE's GTC system. Not from outside companies etc.
See, this person is rationalizing cheating. I wonder what other things he rationalizes.
Apparently Nerf09 is declaring that he is allowed to create additional rules for online games and that even the developers and publishers of the games cannot override Nerf09's personal rules. People like you are sad, you can't even come close to rationally discussing the topic, instead choosing to just shout CHEATER over and over again.
In case you missed it the first 2-3 times that I posted it, and didn't bother to actually read the material that you quoted where the guy you call a cheater mentions it, buying ISK in EVE using GTCs (you buy a card that's good for a month of play, then sell it to someome for ISK in-game) is completely and utterly legitimate. I don't mean 'you probably won't get banned for it', I mean the developers of the game come right out and say that it's perfectly fine to do it, and have their GMs enforce such trades if someome tries to back out of one.
How can it possibly be cheating if the people who created the game's rules, wrote the EULA, run the servers, and control who gets to play the game say that it's allowable behavior?
Look at how far society is degraded when the Cheater always gets away Scot free, and those who shine light on the issue get branded as (bad) evil. But what can you do.
What rules are you talking about? I have no rules, to not cheat is a personal decision by people who want to chose between taking the good path and the bad path. Just like stealing, murder and rape, you can have all the rules in the world but its up to the individual, after all.
Just look at WoW, this game is twink UNfriendly, I am awed at the mathematical genius of the programmers. ALL PROGRESS IS totally LINEAR, twinked or not. Yet people still twink (see progressquest.com) Doesnt matter what brilliant rules are invented, people do evil things. (see Libertarian Party platform on the drug war)
you seem to enjoy tearing down a perfectly analytical assesment simply because you want to take the opposite side of the issue.
first off why players buy gold- why do rich buy mercedes? because it's easier to buy something than build it yourself?
asking why players buy gold is like asking why you eat when your hungry. people do it without even thinking.
you have a percieved need, the ingame item(s). you dont want to raid for them because it's faster to just earn the money in rl.
the china syndrome. An american dollar will buy you 100X as much in china as it will in the US. this makes farmed gold relatively affordable to just about everyone, which ultimately allows all of us to get stuffed into the box of paying money or farming for incredibly long times.
why put live ammunition rounds into a gun? because it's much more effective than shooting blanks.
lets say you make 200k a year, and you play this game.
obviously if someone farms gold, it will be worth your time to buy it.
time= money yes?
thi s inevitably mingles the unequal real world with the game world which is supposed to give everyone who plays a fair shot unlike real life regardless of economic status.
farmers do increase inflation. of course inflation is inevitable in all societies and games, but when you have 1 million people doing nothing but farm gold all day long, it forces poor bitches out and trivializes having money.
eventually, at some point, items will cost so much that the only way to effectively get anything near the speed the game developers intended becomes buying money.
this again makes players more dependent on farmers, again, increasing the profit margins of farmers and the ammount of farmers.
again, as in game accomplishments become more and more impossible, more people will see it worth their time to buy gold rather than earn gold as the developers intended, forcing more people to enter the trade.
it's a viscious cycle, and ultimately undermines the fun of the game.
farmers turn non buyers into buyers systematically over time.
by turn i meant force
"ha, in my experience i have encountered very few money buyers"
lol omg man... you are so deluded. what do you do? run around asking people
"hey, do you buy or farm money? quick tell me in general chat so i can have you banned from the game"
there an effective way to prove your point that you find very few people swapping gold online
"the purpose of this thread was to explore the reasons why people buy money, not to justify or condemn gold farming"
really? well, you did absolutely none of that in your post. ahha
ok he said
1- farmers lead to player being able to buy gold 2- players buy gold so they can have ever item they want instantly 3- that leads to huge inflation 4- that leads to pressure on lowbies to buy gold 5- grind times blow through the roof. the game becomes a huge grind / cash waste. 6- in game items and accompishments are trivialized because anyone can just buy anything.
conclusion - cycle just continues worsening the game bleeding it over time.
--- i miss how this wasnt an informative train of thought?
people buy gold... because farmers... sell gold? damn looks like he explained that early on.
- that leads to everyone being forced to buy gold because you now have to gring gold for days and days straight to afford stuff
then you follow by saying
"why do people make grind games when people really dont like the grind portion?"
good question. what if there were no gold farmers, and everyone had way less money, then items would sell for way less on ah, and nobody would ever have to grind.
no way..... a player driven economy is forced to grind ... because of farmers???
blizzard doesnt set the value of ah goods?
so... if there were no grinders, nobody could afford a 500000000k item, then they'd simply... have to drop the price? impossible!
i really think you missed the forest through the trees here. before grinders, people could afford items on ah just by leveling, because nobody had enough money to buy them other wise, and the only other option was the vendor.
when wow first came out, if someone posted an item for 100 gold, people just laughed. they didnt just decide.... damn i'm going to go grind for 300 hours....
grinders changed that. players now feel responsible to either buy or grind gold to afford items. the amount of grinding time it takes us is only perpetuated by our lack of foresight, perpetuated by the farmers who forced griding into existence.
game life is just like real life.
just like the rich are happy to pay 500 dollars for a meal, thinking they got a deal, so too in an mmo, but even moreso.
there is a top ramen mmo weapon, but you'll lose every time, unlike rl in this respect. a couple people with huge money force every player in the game to thus need huge money, thus allowing the farming business to fester and grow.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Some of you should realize that you are debating with people who think that 1-billion new gas guzzling Chinese Customers has absolutely noo effect on the price of a barrel of oil (supply and demand).
Some of you should realize you are debating with people who think that the labor market can be fully exploited (without any negative side effects) by reintroducing the old system of slavery.
Some of you should realize you are debating with people who like to throw money at a problem.
Some of you should realize you are debating with people who think that reducing supplies through regulation, taxation, and legislative obstructionism has absolutely noooo effect on prices (Supply and Demand).
You are talking economic matters to people who dont even understand, even on a more basic level, supply and demand.
Originally posted by slapme7times you seem to enjoy tearing down a perfectly analytical assesment simply because you want to take the opposite side of the issue.
lets say you make 200k a year, and you play this game.
obviously if someone farms gold, it will be worth your time to buy it.
time= money yes?
thi s inevitably mingles the unequal real world with the game world which is supposed to give everyone who plays a fair shot unlike real life regardless of economic status.
farmers do increase inflation. of course inflation is inevitable in all societies and games, but when you have 1 million people doing nothing but farm gold all day long, it forces poor bitches out and trivializes having money.
eventually, at some point, items will cost so much that the only way to effectively get anything near the speed the game developers intended becomes buying money.
this again makes players more dependent on farmers, again, increasing the profit margins of farmers and the ammount of farmers.
again, as in game accomplishments become more and more impossible, more people will see it worth their time to buy gold rather than earn gold as the developers intended, forcing more people to enter the trade.
it's a viscious cycle, and ultimately undermines the fun of the game.
farmers turn non buyers into buyers systematically over time.
by turn i meant force
"ha, in my experience i have encountered very few money buyers"
lol omg man... you are so deluded. what do you do? run around asking people
"hey, do you buy or farm money? quick tell me in general chat so i can have you banned from the game"
there an effective way to prove your point that you find very few people swapping gold online
"the purpose of this thread was to explore the reasons why people buy money, not to justify or condemn gold farming"
really? well, you did absolutely none of that in your post. ahha
ok he said
1- farmers lead to players buying gold. 2- that leads to huge inflation 3- that leads to pressure on lowbies to buy gold
- that leads to everyone being forced to buy gold because you now have to gring gold for days and days straight to afford stuff
then you follow by saying
"why do people make grind games when people really dont like the grind portion?"
good question. what if there were no gold farmers, and everyone had way less money, then items would sell for way less on ah, and nobody would ever have to grind.
no way..... a player driven economy is forced to grind ... because of farmers???
blizzard doesnt set the value of ah goods?
so... if there were no grinders, nobody could afford a 500000000k item, then they'd simply... have to drop the price? impossible!
i really think you missed the forest through the trees here. before grinders, people could afford items on ah just by leveling, because nobody had enough money to buy them other wise, and the only other option was the vendor.
when wow first came out, if someone posted an item for 100 gold, people just laughed. they didnt just decide.... damn i'm going to go grind for 300 hours....
grinders changed that. players now feel responsible to either buy or grind gold to afford items. the amount of grinding time it takes us is only perpetuated by our lack of foresight, perpetuated by the farmers who forced griding into existence.
game life is just like real life.
just like the rich are happy to pay 500 dollars for a meal, thinking they got a deal, so too in an mmo, but even moreso.
there is a top ramen mmo weapon, but you'll lose every time, unlike rl in this respect. a couple people with huge money force every player in the game to thus need huge money, thus allowing the farming business to fester and grow.
So....beside trying to rip me up do you have a solution? If we listen to you we are all doomed to buy currency.
i was making the point that due to a free market economy and the living cost imbalance between the us and china + lack of minimum wage ultimately leads to farming which forces more farmers.
thus blizzard need to accordingly seperate the free market real world we live in with the game world of wow by implementing some kind of policy.
not that they will or have to, it simply makes the assesment that
1- farming is inevitable due real world issues 2-farming damages games 3- stopping farming makes better games 4- only mmo makers themselves have the capacity to stop farming.
take that where you will.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Originally posted by slapme7times i was making the point that due to a free market economy and the living cost imbalance between the us and china + lack of minimum wage ultimately leads to farming which forces more farmers.
thus blizzard need to accordingly seperate the free market real world we live in with the game world of wow by implementing some kind of policy.
not that they will or have to, it simply makes the assesment that
1- farming is inevitable due real world issues 2-farming damages games 3- stopping farming makes better games 4- only mmo makers themselves have the capacity to stop farming.
take that where you will.
Cool, I was just thinking more along the lines of the gaming community..I wasn't taking it as far as RL socio-economical is all. Your points may be valid but I think beyond the scope of my original thinking when I made this topic.
How about in your number 3, turn it around
3 - Making better games will help stop farming?
After all, it is the designer who creates the "need" to grind in the first place. That would tie right into your number 4. Its amazing to me that almost ALL of the game companies have reacted so little over the subject either way.
You would think a game company would say "hey, people will buy our gold and gear through third parties, lots of them, why don't we do it ourselves?" Revenue is revenue after all.
Its an ugly fix but it would maybe eliminate the farmer. The effects on ingame economies could be bad. or maybe not....we don't have a good working model yet do we? I'm not sure on that....
Now I know this topic wasnt about the "evils of RMT" but as you chose to counter some of the opinions on that sub-topic, so I am countering your counters . The farmers are doing the same thing a player does. They are not duplicating money.
One guy overseeing several farming toons, or groups of farming toons - gotta love the side market of levelling characters to sell as they farm that adena - is NOT the same thing a player does. They may not be duplicating money but they sure as hell are collecting it at an artificial rate which results in the same over-inflation.
From my ingame experience I have encountered very few money buyers. HOWEVER the vast majority of L2 players have been around and have high level characters. Money is a non - issue for them.
You think player characters who buy money look any different than those who do?? I enjoy your posts Torak but I boggle at the ignorance of this statement.
Having played from beta to december of last year I can assure you that money is rarely a non-issue for players of any level. At the time I finally threw in the towel (pro-farmers and bots were not the only factor in my decision to leave but they were singularly the most important one) the pro-Raid groups were starting to get their acts together and had totally dominated the market of A Grade equipment - the highest grade at that time. As "How to stop the Raid Farmers" is currently the hottest topic in the Official General Discussion forum I can see little has changed and I wont be coming back any time soon.
New players may based on the perception of the people who do not play the game. (L2 has a horrible reputation for bots and farmers)
Unfortunately this reputation is warranted, and that comes from a 'fangurl' who played L2 for 21 months. I actually have a lot of confidence in NCSoft staff I just think the problem is too overwhelming for them to effectively deal with it.
Also, new players may feel pressured to keep up with the best gear because the feel they will not be able to compete.
With so many rerolls/alts kitted out in the best gear it's hardly surprising their expectations are distorted. Its a hard one to counter, but I think both the newbie upgrade system and the Festival Upgrade system do a great job.
Little do they know, after wasting money on D Grade equipment, that they will finish that tier rather quickly and need a higher tier. By not learning the market in the first place new players will become frustrated and quit. Veteran players are more then happy to explain NOT to waste money on low tier items. For whatever reasons new players CHOOSE to ignore them.
Frankly this comment puzzles me. How is it a waste when as you said yourself "I personally am guilty of OVER charging for D grade gear because I know a less experienced player will buy it". This comment appears to contradict the other. BUT WAIT! even if they cant sell their Top D Grade weapon they can see the Blacksmith and have him upgrade it to the next tier for a nominal sum (600k?).
On reflection I would suggest that Top D is a good investment in any case and I dont know any of us veteran multi-character players who dont have our alts in the top equipment for their grade.
Back to the topic in hand and your last comment -
Why do game companies keep making grind games when in reality people do not really like the grind portion?
Im not sure this comment is true, at least not in relation to the "more grind = more RMT's" theory - the amount of gold auctions for non-grind games would seem to support me here.
It also indicates an enormous lack of imagination on the part of your average player...as an earlier poster wrote, the length of the grind (in L2) is necessary to faciltate the relationships and politics of each server - im paraphrasing badly, but you get the gist.
This poster is spot on. In no other game have I come across such well organised, loyal, varied and structured clans. Oh sure there are a few clan hoppers but on the whole L2 clans are 'tight'. Thats the real reward of a long grind and no amount of bought virtual currency will buy you that.
EDIT: I hate this as a solution, I really do, but after 2 years of losing the fight to pro-farmers I think it is time NCSoft took the problem to the farmers and - for a trial period at least - begin selling adena themselves.
Originally posted by Nerf09 Look at how far society is degraded when the Cheater always gets away Scot free, and those who shine light on the issue get branded as (bad) evil. But what can you do.
As I wrote in the material you quoted but apparently didn't read, playing a game by the rules of the game is not cheating. Buying ISK in EVE using a timecard is allowed by the rules of the game, therefore it's not cheating, so your accusations of cheating are false. You're not shedding light on the issue, you're accusing someome of being a cheat for playing a game in a way allowed and encouraged by the developers/publishers of the game.
What rules are you talking about? I have no rules, to not cheat is a personal decision by people who want to chose between taking the good path and the bad path. Just like stealing, murder and rape, you can have all the rules in the world but its up to the individual, after all.
I'm talking about the extra rules you've invented for the game; to not cheat is to not break the rules of the game, and the person you keep accusing of cheating did not break the rules of EVE. Therefore, you're either adding additional rules to the game (like 'you're not allowed to sell a time-card for ISK even though the developers/publishers say it's OK and encourage it') or you don't know what the word 'cheater' means. Comparing someome playing a game in a way encouraged by the owners of the game to rape, murder, and theft doesn't really make any sense.
2) Would you agree that money buying increases the amount of money in the game and that this will cause inflation?
No, I don't agree. Farming, regardless of whether the player intends to sell the gold, is what increases the amount of money in the game. Higher level players tend to have fat sacks of in-game currency just taking up space which is why high level guild members donate large sums to lower level guild members. I'll use my maxed character in Guild Wars to demonstrate. While GW doesn't have a persistant world, it does maintain persistance of characters and inventory across servers and instances. My lvl 20 Ranger / Monk has all kinds of money as well just about any weapon, item, or raw material that my newer alts could ever need. I could just as easily give some of that wealth to lower level players. If some lower level players were to join my guild, I would probably give some money and equipment to them. The amount of money hasn't changed. The use of the money has. Instead of having 6+ digits of currency in my inventory, It's now in the hands of someone who will spend it. In other words, the buying of money DECREASES the amount of money that's in the game.
3) Would you agree that money buyers will be substantially better equipped than other people of their level, and that if they become common then this will put pressure on other people to keep up?
Yes and no. While peope that buy money will be better equiped, so will players that are members of guilds that "share the wealth." Even if there were no money sellers, there would still be players that are equiped to the maximum amount due to their guilds or friends. There will always be alternatives to farming. Why should I feel guilty because I can acquire top gear faster than a soloer that doesn't buy money?
4) Would you agree that some games, such as L2 and FFXI, have already evolved to the point where there is a very large degree of pressure on new players to buy currency?
With those two games, it's less a matter of evolution than simply being made for a different market and being converted to a "western" model. Hyperinflation is usually the result of in-game scammers and not money sellers. This is why I never buy equipment from other players since I can get it cheaper from the in-game shops or just craft it myself. And of course, it's usually just easier to buy items off of ebay than spend in-game currencey. BTW, is the sale of in-game items part of this discussion, or is it a seperate topic altogether?
5) Can you understand how people would not want their favourite game to reach that situation?
I can understand that someone who spent long, boring hours grinding away would be upset that someone just bought their way to the same place in less than a minute. However, the person you should really be angry at is yourself for not being smart enough to just bypass the grind.
Comments
Nerf, the purpose of this thread is NOT to attack the posters.
It is to dig into the problem that many of us speculate about.
The poster gave his reason, leave it at that.
We can't even say for sure if this is truely cheating at this point as we can not really say there is a difference between someone handing you 1000gp or you buying them and then someone handing them to you.
In my example,
DID I CHEAT WHEN MY RL FRIEND GAVE ME 200GP WHEN I FIRST LOGGED INTO DAoC? IF NOT HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM BUYING CURRENCY?
I usually play my first main character in a MMORP in a 'legit' fashion. After that, I am just not that interested in the 'Work' involved in farming for cash for my other characters. I shortcut the process and buy currency. Mostly from IGE, a very reliable company, in my experience.
The sad part is that as a MMORPG matures, the economy inflates to levels far beyond the ability of a newer character to farm to buy even common items. This can be seen in WoW right now. It is not because masses of players are buying currency and flooding the market. It is because of the masses of level 60s that have the currency to buy out the market items and then set the prices.
Other thing is, with all the 60's, their low-level alts are always uber twinked with Gold, Gear, and Enchants. Nothing a 'straight' player can do to compete with that sort of twinking.
So, I don't really mind, or even want to know, if player XYZ got his gear from buying Gold, Twinking, or Playing. It is, after all, just a game and the objective is to have fun. If having fun for one means farming for Coins, so be it. If having fun means bypassing that step to get more into the other aspects, that is fine too.
It is all good. Just have fun.
P.S. If game companies, such as Blizzard, really wanted to stop the BUYING of Gold, Accounts, and Items, they could easilly do so (note, I said buying, not selling). But, they choose not to. I personally know of no instance where someone who only purchased Gold has ever been Warned, Suspended, or Banned. Nor has any MMORPG forum I have ever been watching reported any punishment for BUYERS of Gold, Items, or Accounts. Something to think about.
Part of the fact is obviously that our time ( developed world ), is worth something like 10-20 times more then that of say people in china, if you count pure money.
This difference in wealth has, among others, one effect.
Buying gold or plats or whatever, is really bloody cheap.
Instead of farming 10 hours I can work one and BUY 10 hours work from someone in china, who just happens to have a work that is farming.
I have yet to do it because I am one of thoose few who thinks farming is somewhat fun, being an old Diablo2 player who has ran probably tens of thousands of Mephisto/Spindle runs, I do not neccesarily see it as a bad thing.
But, most people with time constraints do not find it at all amusing to spend their online time farming money, most find their RL work a lot more fun even, then working online like that.
One might argue that then they should not have access to uber gear, but the option is there.
And in most games the really uber gear is nodrop/notrade so no amount of gold will ever get you that gear.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will try to stay focused on the OP's topic.
I have bought Gold from a 3rd party seller on Ebay for WoW.
Why? More than any one reason, as follows;
1) Boredom. Farming = Boring, so I guess I might fall into the category of the various "lazy" posts. I am an IT professional that works roughly 55 hours a week. I love games, I love gaming, I like playing games, I like having fun when I play games. Farming to me is not fun. In fact it is what drives me from most MMO's to try another until some item I feel I "need" stops me from having fun until I can farm enough gold to get it, etc. Standard BS excuse. I buy some Currency, I continue playing the parts of the game I enjoy.
2) My sister, her husband, and my dad and soon after my son and one of my daughters started playing WoW also. I had a 60 Hunter and was working on leveling a Mage/Tailor for times when I couldn't get a group. I had just thrown more than a little cash into grinding Tailor to 300 the moment my mage hit 35. When my family joined I wanted to help them out, so I sent each Runecloth bags. 8 Each. I also included with the 8th Bag 20g. After doing this I only had about 70g. I then got my faction to where I could buy my epic mount. I buy some Currency, buy my bea-u-tiful Winterspring Cat, and return to playing.
3) Time. I like playing video games. I also like fishing, Hiking, going four-wheeling after a nice rain, sitting at a local cafe' watching the truly gorgeous women that live in my area, going on dates, watching movies, playing golf, I help coach a little-league baseball team, but most of all... I am a Gamer! So when I do set aside time to play I wanna play. I do not want to clean Silithus AGAIN for loot, or sit around waiting in queue for a BG or "60 Hunter LFG Baron pst". That's not fun. $20 bucks, couple hundred gold, I move on.
Do I regret the purchase? Hmm. No. Do I regret all the time I wasted when $20 would have saved me a weekend of monotony? F*K yes I do.
You play games your way, I play mine. As a side note, the money was a last ditch effort to try making myself enjoy a game I not longer did; for the sake of playing with my family. I have since quit WoW because my then 35 Mage is now 60 also, and I really do not want to do it all over again a third time. But...Think of the Mastercard Commercials.... think of it ending with the "Grouping with your Sister, Father and Daughter, and looting your Beaststalkers Boots-- Priceless" Purchasing online currency allowed that for me. Flame away
Also the question was what is the difference between me playing 1 hour a day and buying 100 gold, or me playing 10 hours a day and farming 100 gold. Same amount of money for me, same time frame. So you are saying that people who play enough to farm money ruin the economy? I sure as hell havent bought more money than half the players can farm in the time frame I use it in.
There is no difference, you either have to admit that farming ruins the economy, which throws out your that whole arguement, disappear from the thread, or try to justify how farming 100 gold in a 24 hour period is different than buying 100 gold in the same period. You gonna try and say that it's different? That if I logged on for one hour in one day and bought 100 gold is different than me logging in for 10 hours in one day and farming 100 gold?
I have to admit nothing. Please don't try to dismiss my points before they are being made. You presume to know every point before I even write it. Such an attitude shows a lack of both politeness and respect.
I can think of several weaknesses in your argument.
Firstly, if you started with a level 25 WoW character and paid for 100 gold, you would be an exceptionally well equipped level 25 character and would enjoy a vast advantage over other people your level.
However, if instead you went out and spent several weeks farming for the same amount, then you would still make that 100gp. However it is very likely that whilst you were farming you would have also gained some experience points (as the mobs that drop the best kit tend to be higher level). Hence, at the end of that fortnight, whilst you would have still made the 100gp, you may have risen to level 35. Now there is a big difference between a level 25 character with 100gp worth of kit and a level 35 with the same. One enjoys a large and unfair advantage, the other enjoys quite a minor advantage.
Secondly, consider the matter of scale. It has already been pointed out that many players find farming the same mobs over and over again to be very boring. Hence, even in farming heavy games like WoW, many players, will limit the amount of farming they will do. They will break it up with a few more fun activities - chatting to friends, pvp, visiting an instance or whatever. However when someone is being paid for this activity then the brakes are off. A professional farmer could easily farm for 8 or more hours a day, every day. Hence alot more farming occurs.
Consider the following situation, which I believe roughly mimics reality
10% of level 25 characters are alts of level 50+ characters, and have received a large amount of twinks
10% of level 25 characters have been gifted a large sum of money by a friend, and hence have exceptional gear.
30% of level 25 characters have not been twinked and would not buy gold under any circumstances.
30% of level 25 characters would buy gold immediately if it was available to them
20% of level 25 characters would buy gold if pressured to do so to keep up with those around them
Now in a game with no gold buying, only 10%+10%=20% of level 25 characters are twinked. Yep, they enjoy an unfair advantage, but there's only an average of one per party. Not enough to put alot of pressure on other people to keep up.
Now gold becomes regularly available. Over the next few months, 30% of players go out and buy it. Now 50% of characters are twinked. The pressure starts to mount. Characters who haven't been twinked start seeing their performance drop relative to those around them, and find it harder to get parties. An additional 20% go out and buy gold - just in order to keep up.
After a short amount of time, we have reached a situation where 70% of characters are heavily twinked in some fashion. The players of the remaining 30% are looked down on for their inferior characters, whilst the twinks boast how skillful they are "3 battlegrounds and not a single death - I must be good" they rationalise.
I don't buy gold myself. However there is no way I want to be put under the sort of pressure that a heavily twinked game creates, and, as I explained above, this situation is substantially exasperated by gold buyers.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
It could mean the "advantage" to level faster. To that, I have to say, so what.
The only result of others advancing beyond you is that it'll make you feel badly. That counts for a lot though, so I understand, but it's not meaningful to the game.
The other concern might be something to do with PVP, but again, I conclude it to be meaningless. Someone beating you at PVP, that is above your level, shouldn't bother you at all, because it's based on the mathematics of the game and nothing else. It's as much an achievement as beating a baby to death.
Advancement toward the end of the game means what? Well, it means almost nothing as currently nothing changes in any of the games whether a person finishes or not.
So, until games are made in some way that makes play and play style count cheating is meaningless.
However, cheating does mean something to companies that make boring grind fests. It means that people will be able to move through their games faster than their projected average rate, and so the company will make less money.
Apparently Nerf09 is declaring that he is allowed to create additional rules for online games and that even the developers and publishers of the games cannot override Nerf09's personal rules. People like you are sad, you can't even come close to rationally discussing the topic, instead choosing to just shout CHEATER over and over again.
In case you missed it the first 2-3 times that I posted it, and didn't bother to actually read the material that you quoted where the guy you call a cheater mentions it, buying ISK in EVE using GTCs (you buy a card that's good for a month of play, then sell it to someome for ISK in-game) is completely and utterly legitimate. I don't mean 'you probably won't get banned for it', I mean the developers of the game come right out and say that it's perfectly fine to do it, and have their GMs enforce such trades if someome tries to back out of one.
How can it possibly be cheating if the people who created the game's rules, wrote the EULA, run the servers, and control who gets to play the game say that it's allowable behavior?
I can think of several weaknesses in your argument.
Firstly, if you started with a level 25 WoW character and paid for 100 gold, you would be an exceptionally well equipped level 25 character and would enjoy a vast advantage over other people your level.
However, if instead you went out and spent several weeks farming for the same amount, then you would still make that 100gp. However it is very likely that whilst you were farming you would have also gained some experience points (as the mobs that drop the best kit tend to be higher level). Hence, at the end of that fortnight, whilst you would have still made the 100gp, you may have risen to level 35. Now there is a big difference between a level 25 character with 100gp worth of kit and a level 35 with the same. One enjoys a large and unfair advantage, the other enjoys quite a minor advantage.
Secondly, consider the matter of scale. It has already been pointed out that many players find farming the same mobs over and over again to be very boring. Hence, even in farming heavy games like WoW, many players, will limit the amount of farming they will do. They will break it up with a few more fun activities - chatting to friends, pvp, visiting an instance or whatever. However when someone is being paid for this activity then the brakes are off. A professional farmer could easily farm for 8 or more hours a day, every day. Hence alot more farming occurs.
Consider the following situation, which I believe roughly mimics reality
10% of level 25 characters are alts of level 50+ characters, and have received a large amount of twinks
10% of level 25 characters have been gifted a large sum of money by a friend, and hence have exceptional gear.
30% of level 25 characters have not been twinked and would not buy gold under any circumstances.
30% of level 25 characters would buy gold immediately if it was available to them
20% of level 25 characters would buy gold if pressured to do so to keep up with those around them
Now in a game with no gold buying, only 10%+10%=20% of level 25 characters are twinked. Yep, they enjoy an unfair advantage, but there's only an average of one per party. Not enough to put alot of pressure on other people to keep up.
Now gold becomes regularly available. Over the next few months, 30% of players go out and buy it. Now 50% of characters are twinked. The pressure starts to mount. Characters who haven't been twinked start seeing their performance drop relative to those around them, and find it harder to get parties. An additional 20% go out and buy gold - just in order to keep up.
After a short amount of time, we have reached a situation where 70% of characters are heavily twinked in some fashion. The players of the remaining 30% are looked down on for their inferior characters, whilst the twinks boast how skillful they are "3 battlegrounds and not a single death - I must be good" they rationalise.
I don't buy gold myself. However there is no way I want to be put under the sort of pressure that a heavily twinked game creates, and, as I explained above, this situation is substantially exasperated by gold buyers.
Sorry, that is speculation. There are no hard "facts" about anything when it comes to virtual trade other then the fact that 100's of millions of dollars are SPENT by players a year.
I could say 80% of all WoW players are idiots but I have nothing to back that statisic up besides my smart ars
(just joking, WoW is a fine game)
However whilst it is an eashy shot to question the exact numbers I have used, I'm actually not too concerned by their accuracy to the second decimal place. Instead I'd be curious if you are able to confront the underlying points I am trying to make.
My post was designed to both clarify my position, and also confronted several of the arguments made here - namely that
i) Buying gold for my character doesn't harm anyone else
ii) Buying gold has exactly the same game effect as farming but it is less boring.
I believe I have shown these both to be inaccurate.
I have clarified my position. Instead of trying to score cheap points, can you actually say which parts of my argument you agreee and disagree with? In particular could you answer the following questions:
1) Would you agree that this thread has demonstrated that, for various reasons, there are a certain proportion of players that will buy money as soon as it becomes available?
2) Would you agree that money buying increases the amount of money in the game and that this will cause inflation?
3) Would you agree that money buyers will be substantially better equipped than other people of their level, and that if they become common then this will put pressure on other people to keep up?
4) Would you agree that some games, such as L2 and FFXI, have already evolved to the point where there is a very large degree of pressure on new players to buy currency?
5) Can you understand how people would not want their favourite game to reach that situation?
If you accept all the above, then I would be curious if you could explain why your position is different from mine.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I will try to stay focused on the OP's topic.
I have bought Gold from a 3rd party seller on Ebay for WoW.
Why? More than any one reason, as follows;
1) Boredom. Farming = Boring, so I guess I might fall into the category of the various "lazy" posts. I am an IT professional that works roughly 55 hours a week. I love games, I love gaming, I like playing games, I like having fun when I play games. Farming to me is not fun. In fact it is what drives me from most MMO's to try another until some item I feel I "need" stops me from having fun until I can farm enough gold to get it, etc. Standard BS excuse. I buy some Currency, I continue playing the parts of the game I enjoy.
2) My sister, her husband, and my dad and soon after my son and one of my daughters started playing WoW also. I had a 60 Hunter and was working on leveling a Mage/Tailor for times when I couldn't get a group. I had just thrown more than a little cash into grinding Tailor to 300 the moment my mage hit 35. When my family joined I wanted to help them out, so I sent each Runecloth bags. 8 Each. I also included with the 8th Bag 20g. After doing this I only had about 70g. I then got my faction to where I could buy my epic mount. I buy some Currency, buy my bea-u-tiful Winterspring Cat, and return to playing.
3) Time. I like playing video games. I also like fishing, Hiking, going four-wheeling after a nice rain, sitting at a local cafe' watching the truly gorgeous women that live in my area, going on dates, watching movies, playing golf, I help coach a little-league baseball team, but most of all... I am a Gamer! So when I do set aside time to play I wanna play. I do not want to clean Silithus AGAIN for loot, or sit around waiting in queue for a BG or "60 Hunter LFG Baron pst". That's not fun. $20 bucks, couple hundred gold, I move on.
Do I regret the purchase? Hmm. No. Do I regret all the time I wasted when $20 would have saved me a weekend of monotony? F*K yes I do.
You play games your way, I play mine. As a side note, the money was a last ditch effort to try making myself enjoy a game I not longer did; for the sake of playing with my family. I have since quit WoW because my then 35 Mage is now 60 also, and I really do not want to do it all over again a third time. But...Think of the Mastercard Commercials.... think of it ending with the "Grouping with your Sister, Father and Daughter, and looting your Beaststalkers Boots-- Priceless" Purchasing online currency allowed that for me. Flame away
See, we got two different personality type.
Me, after exhausting every effort to make the game more interesting and fun, FOR ME, I unsubscribe and no longer play.
YOU, this poster, after exhausting every effort to make a game more interesting, he doesnt unsubscribe like me, he throws MORE MONEY at the problem.
I think it would be interesting to note that I am a Republican. Gee, I wonder what party the, "YOU" 'throwing more money at the problem' guy is part of.
Apparently Nerf09 is declaring that he is allowed to create additional rules for online games and that even the developers and publishers of the games cannot override Nerf09's personal rules. People like you are sad, you can't even come close to rationally discussing the topic, instead choosing to just shout CHEATER over and over again.
In case you missed it the first 2-3 times that I posted it, and didn't bother to actually read the material that you quoted where the guy you call a cheater mentions it, buying ISK in EVE using GTCs (you buy a card that's good for a month of play, then sell it to someome for ISK in-game) is completely and utterly legitimate. I don't mean 'you probably won't get banned for it', I mean the developers of the game come right out and say that it's perfectly fine to do it, and have their GMs enforce such trades if someome tries to back out of one.
How can it possibly be cheating if the people who created the game's rules, wrote the EULA, run the servers, and control who gets to play the game say that it's allowable behavior?
Look at how far society is degraded when the Cheater always gets away Scot free, and those who shine light on the issue get branded as (bad) evil. But what can you do.
What rules are you talking about? I have no rules, to not cheat is a personal decision by people who want to chose between taking the good path and the bad path. Just like stealing, murder and rape, you can have all the rules in the world but its up to the individual, after all.
Just look at WoW, this game is twink UNfriendly, I am awed at the mathematical genius of the programmers. ALL PROGRESS IS totally LINEAR, twinked or not. Yet people still twink (see progressquest.com) Doesnt matter what brilliant rules are invented, people do evil things. (see Libertarian Party platform on the drug war)
Horrendous.
you seem to enjoy tearing down a perfectly analytical assesment simply because you want to take the opposite side of the issue.
first off why players buy gold- why do rich buy mercedes? because it's easier to buy something than build it yourself?
asking why players buy gold is like asking why you eat when your hungry. people do it without even thinking.
you have a percieved need, the ingame item(s). you dont want to raid for them because it's faster to just earn the money in rl.
the china syndrome. An american dollar will buy you 100X as much in china as it will in the US. this makes farmed gold relatively affordable to just about everyone, which ultimately allows all of us to get stuffed into the box of paying money or farming for incredibly long times.
why put live ammunition rounds into a gun? because it's much more effective than shooting blanks.
lets say you make 200k a year, and you play this game.
obviously if someone farms gold, it will be worth your time to buy it.
time= money yes?
thi s inevitably mingles the unequal real world with the game world which is supposed to give everyone who plays a fair shot unlike real life regardless of economic status.
farmers do increase inflation. of course inflation is inevitable in all societies and games, but when you have 1 million people doing nothing but farm gold all day long, it forces poor bitches out and trivializes having money.
eventually, at some point, items will cost so much that the only way to effectively get anything near the speed the game developers intended becomes buying money.
this again makes players more dependent on farmers, again, increasing the profit margins of farmers and the ammount of farmers.
again, as in game accomplishments become more and more impossible, more people will see it worth their time to buy gold rather than earn gold as the developers intended, forcing more people to enter the trade.
it's a viscious cycle, and ultimately undermines the fun of the game.
farmers turn non buyers into buyers systematically over time.
by turn i meant force
"ha, in my experience i have encountered very few money buyers"
lol omg man... you are so deluded. what do you do? run around asking people
"hey, do you buy or farm money? quick tell me in general chat so i can have you banned from the game"
there an effective way to prove your point that you find very few people swapping gold online
"the purpose of this thread was to explore the reasons why people buy money, not to justify or condemn gold farming"
really? well, you did absolutely none of that in your post. ahha
ok he said
1- farmers lead to player being able to buy gold
2- players buy gold so they can have ever item they want instantly
3- that leads to huge inflation
4- that leads to pressure on lowbies to buy gold
5- grind times blow through the roof. the game becomes a huge grind / cash waste.
6- in game items and accompishments are trivialized because anyone can just buy anything.
conclusion - cycle just continues worsening the game bleeding it over time.
--- i miss how this wasnt an informative train of thought?
people buy gold... because farmers... sell gold? damn looks like he explained that early on.
- that leads to everyone being forced to buy gold because you now have to gring gold for days and days straight to afford stuff
then you follow by saying
"why do people make grind games when people really dont like the grind portion?"
good question. what if there were no gold farmers, and everyone had way less money, then items would sell for way less on ah, and nobody would ever have to grind.
no way..... a player driven economy is forced to grind ... because of farmers???
blizzard doesnt set the value of ah goods?
so... if there were no grinders, nobody could afford a 500000000k item, then they'd simply... have to drop the price? impossible!
i really think you missed the forest through the trees here. before grinders, people could afford items on ah just by leveling, because nobody had enough money to buy them other wise, and the only other option was the vendor.
when wow first came out, if someone posted an item for 100 gold, people just laughed. they didnt just decide.... damn i'm going to go grind for 300 hours....
grinders changed that. players now feel responsible to either buy or grind gold to afford items. the amount of grinding time it takes us is only perpetuated by our lack of foresight, perpetuated by the farmers who forced griding into existence.
game life is just like real life.
just like the rich are happy to pay 500 dollars for a meal, thinking they got a deal, so too in an mmo, but even moreso.
there is a top ramen mmo weapon, but you'll lose every time, unlike rl in this respect.
a couple people with huge money force every player in the game to thus need huge money, thus allowing the farming business to fester and grow.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
*Give it up when talking about economic matters.*
Some of you should realize that you are debating with people who think that 1-billion new gas guzzling Chinese Customers has absolutely noo effect on the price of a barrel of oil (supply and demand).
Some of you should realize you are debating with people who think that the labor market can be fully exploited (without any negative side effects) by reintroducing the old system of slavery.
Some of you should realize you are debating with people who like to throw money at a problem.
Some of you should realize you are debating with people who think that reducing supplies through regulation, taxation, and legislative obstructionism has absolutely noooo effect on prices (Supply and Demand).
You are talking economic matters to people who dont even understand, even on a more basic level, supply and demand.
thus blizzard need to accordingly seperate the free market real world we live in with the game world of wow by implementing some kind of policy.
not that they will or have to, it simply makes the assesment that
1- farming is inevitable due real world issues
2-farming damages games
3- stopping farming makes better games
4- only mmo makers themselves have the capacity to stop farming.
take that where you will.
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Cool, I was just thinking more along the lines of the gaming community..I wasn't taking it as far as RL socio-economical is all. Your points may be valid but I think beyond the scope of my original thinking when I made this topic.
How about in your number 3, turn it around
3 - Making better games will help stop farming?
After all, it is the designer who creates the "need" to grind in the first place. That would tie right into your number 4. Its amazing to me that almost ALL of the game companies have reacted so little over the subject either way.
You would think a game company would say "hey, people will buy our gold and gear through third parties, lots of them, why don't we do it ourselves?" Revenue is revenue after all.
Its an ugly fix but it would maybe eliminate the farmer. The effects on ingame economies could be bad. or maybe not....we don't have a good working model yet do we? I'm not sure on that....
Now I know this topic wasnt about the "evils of RMT" but as you chose to counter some of the opinions on that sub-topic, so I am countering your counters
The farmers are doing the same thing a player does. They are not duplicating money.
One guy overseeing several farming toons, or groups of farming toons - gotta love the side market of levelling characters to sell as they farm that adena - is NOT the same thing a player does. They may not be duplicating money but they sure as hell are collecting it at an artificial rate which results in the same over-inflation.
From my ingame experience I have encountered very few money buyers. HOWEVER the vast majority of L2 players have been around and have high level characters. Money is a non - issue for them.
You think player characters who buy money look any different than those who do?? I enjoy your posts Torak but I boggle at the ignorance of this statement.
Having played from beta to december of last year I can assure you that money is rarely a non-issue for players of any level. At the time I finally threw in the towel (pro-farmers and bots were not the only factor in my decision to leave but they were singularly the most important one) the pro-Raid groups were starting to get their acts together and had totally dominated the market of A Grade equipment - the highest grade at that time. As "How to stop the Raid Farmers" is currently the hottest topic in the Official General Discussion forum I can see little has changed and I wont be coming back any time soon.
New players may based on the perception of the people who do not play the game. (L2 has a horrible reputation for bots and farmers)
Unfortunately this reputation is warranted, and that comes from a 'fangurl' who played L2 for 21 months. I actually have a lot of confidence in NCSoft staff I just think the problem is too overwhelming for them to effectively deal with it.
Also, new players may feel pressured to keep up with the best gear because the feel they will not be able to compete.
With so many rerolls/alts kitted out in the best gear it's hardly surprising their expectations are distorted. Its a hard one to counter, but I think both the newbie upgrade system and the Festival Upgrade system do a great job.
Little do they know, after wasting money on D Grade equipment, that they will finish that tier rather quickly and need a higher tier. By not learning the market in the first place new players will become frustrated and quit. Veteran players are more then happy to explain NOT to waste money on low tier items. For whatever reasons new players CHOOSE to ignore them.
Frankly this comment puzzles me. How is it a waste when as you said yourself "I personally am guilty of OVER charging for D grade gear because I know a less experienced player will buy it". This comment appears to contradict the other. BUT WAIT! even if they cant sell their Top D Grade weapon they can see the Blacksmith and have him upgrade it to the next tier for a nominal sum (600k?).
On reflection I would suggest that Top D is a good investment in any case and I dont know any of us veteran multi-character players who dont have our alts in the top equipment for their grade.
Back to the topic in hand and your last comment -
Why do game companies keep making grind games when in reality people do not really like the grind portion?
Im not sure this comment is true, at least not in relation to the "more grind = more RMT's" theory - the amount of gold auctions for non-grind games would seem to support me here.
It also indicates an enormous lack of imagination on the part of your average player...as an earlier poster wrote, the length of the grind (in L2) is necessary to faciltate the relationships and politics of each server - im paraphrasing badly, but you get the gist.
This poster is spot on. In no other game have I come across such well organised, loyal, varied and structured clans. Oh sure there are a few clan hoppers but on the whole L2 clans are 'tight'. Thats the real reward of a long grind and no amount of bought virtual currency will buy you that.
EDIT: I hate this as a solution, I really do, but after 2 years of losing the fight to pro-farmers I think it is time NCSoft took the problem to the farmers and - for a trial period at least - begin selling adena themselves.
As I wrote in the material you quoted but apparently didn't read, playing a game by the rules of the game is not cheating. Buying ISK in EVE using a timecard is allowed by the rules of the game, therefore it's not cheating, so your accusations of cheating are false. You're not shedding light on the issue, you're accusing someome of being a cheat for playing a game in a way allowed and encouraged by the developers/publishers of the game.
I'm talking about the extra rules you've invented for the game; to not cheat is to not break the rules of the game, and the person you keep accusing of cheating did not break the rules of EVE. Therefore, you're either adding additional rules to the game (like 'you're not allowed to sell a time-card for ISK even though the developers/publishers say it's OK and encourage it') or you don't know what the word 'cheater' means. Comparing someome playing a game in a way encouraged by the owners of the game to rape, murder, and theft doesn't really make any sense.
Antipathy wrote:
2) Would you agree that money buying increases the amount of money in the game and that this will cause inflation?
No, I don't agree. Farming, regardless of whether the player intends to sell the gold, is what increases the amount of money in the game. Higher level players tend to have fat sacks of in-game currency just taking up space which is why high level guild members donate large sums to lower level guild members. I'll use my maxed character in Guild Wars to demonstrate. While GW doesn't have a persistant world, it does maintain persistance of characters and inventory across servers and instances. My lvl 20 Ranger / Monk has all kinds of money as well just about any weapon, item, or raw material that my newer alts could ever need. I could just as easily give some of that wealth to lower level players. If some lower level players were to join my guild, I would probably give some money and equipment to them. The amount of money hasn't changed. The use of the money has. Instead of having 6+ digits of currency in my inventory, It's now in the hands of someone who will spend it. In other words, the buying of money DECREASES the amount of money that's in the game.
3) Would you agree that money buyers will be substantially better equipped than other people of their level, and that if they become common then this will put pressure on other people to keep up?
Yes and no. While peope that buy money will be better equiped, so will players that are members of guilds that "share the wealth." Even if there were no money sellers, there would still be players that are equiped to the maximum amount due to their guilds or friends. There will always be alternatives to farming. Why should I feel guilty because I can acquire top gear faster than a soloer that doesn't buy money?
4) Would you agree that some games, such as L2 and FFXI, have already evolved to the point where there is a very large degree of pressure on new players to buy currency?
With those two games, it's less a matter of evolution than simply being made for a different market and being converted to a "western" model. Hyperinflation is usually the result of in-game scammers and not money sellers. This is why I never buy equipment from other players since I can get it cheaper from the in-game shops or just craft it myself. And of course, it's usually just easier to buy items off of ebay than spend in-game currencey. BTW, is the sale of in-game items part of this discussion, or is it a seperate topic altogether?
5) Can you understand how people would not want their favourite game to reach that situation?
I can understand that someone who spent long, boring hours grinding away would be upset that someone just bought their way to the same place in less than a minute. However, the person you should really be angry at is yourself for not being smart enough to just bypass the grind.