Who designed the Pantheon rogue?

Thebeasttt · June 2018

Because they should probably make room for someone more creative and/or talented. I seriously hope this person isn't designing all the classes because thats some of the most copy paste gameplay I've ever seen. If you watch the most recent streams, Pantheon rogues are watered down WoW rogues. They have the fast yellow energy bar, the ranged blind CC and a bunch of typical generic dps buttons that will likely turn into a mindless rotation.

This is a troubling lack of innovation with a game trying to avoid the themepark branding. Yes it's prealpha but that's the direction rogue has been going since their first stream and this is the best time for feedback. Designing a class with that many similarities to WoW shows a serious lack of understanding for the direction of the project or that person just doesn't care nearly enough.

Wellspring · June 2018

I never play rogues in MMORPG, so I'm clueless about the class. Nor did I play more than a few hours total of WoW.

That's some pretty harsh criticism though. How would you design it better?

Thebeasttt · June 2018

Wellspring said:

I never play rogues in MMORPG, so I'm clueless about the class. Nor did I play more than a few hours total of WoW.

That's some pretty harsh criticism though. How would you design it better?

I don't have to be a better designer to spot bad design. If you fly a helicopter into a tree, I don't have to be a pilot to call you a bad one.

The person who made the Pantheon rogue clearly copy pasted WoW, expending not a single brain cell in the process. I don't even care for rogue play style as a whole but im still surprised there isnt more concern from the actual fans.

iatesand · June 2018

Ok, here let me have a shot at it.

first the WoW rogues is a solid character class even if they have used it as inspiration as a starting point I would say they in a great position.
the wow rougue isnt that far off from the EQ rogue and these are some of the people that made them, so starting off at your roots is, once again a great position
You have never played the class, there for you are basing your opinion off a internet video of a class you have no first hand knowledge of, you maybe.. are not starting off from a good point
They never said they wanted to reinvent the wheel, they wanted to bring classic black with some modern changes. You have seen a small fraction of a fraction of a class and you are an expert on how it works?
You don't really have an argument, you have an opinion that you are free to share, as we are free to point out

inmysights · June 2018

Thebeasttt said:

Because they should probably make room for someone more creative and/or talented. I seriously hope this person isn't designing all the classes because thats some of the most copy paste gameplay I've ever seen. If you watch the most recent streams, Pantheon rogues are watered down WoW rogues. They have the fast yellow energy bar, the ranged blind CC and a bunch of typical generic dps buttons that will likely turn into a mindless rotation.

This is a troubling lack of innovation with a game trying to avoid the themepark branding. Yes it's prealpha but that's the direction rogue has been going since their first stream and this is the best time for feedback. Designing a class with that many similarities to WoW shows a serious lack of understanding for the direction of the project or that person just doesn't care nearly enough.

OMG, it hurts reading the false information spewing from your pie hole

ceratop001 · June 2018

Rogues seem to almost always possess fast DPS skills. Assassins comes to mind with stealth and strong PvP capabilities. Usually they use daggers or small knives. This has been the standard since I can remember.

Alcuin · June 2018

I've never liked that the role of rogue was primarily DPS. That's just my opinion - and I realize that it's blasphemy to a certain (likely majority) group of people.

Sneaking, stealing, spying, infiltrating, disguising, tricking, picking locks, finding & disarming traps, distracting & debuffing targets: that's what I'd like to see more of.

And I would keep the backstabbing mechanic. They might not need to be topping DPS, but assassinating an occasional debuffed and distracted target would fit.

I do realize it won't happen because it would take a significant game redesign, from the ground up.

My $.02 copper.

Xiaoki · June 2018

If you think the Rogue is bad then you should do a side-by-side of the Dire Lord next to a Blood Death Knight.

Thebeasttt · June 2018

iatesand said:

Ok, here let me have a shot at it.

first the WoW rogues is a solid character class even if they have used it as inspiration as a starting point I would say they in a great position.
the wow rougue isnt that far off from the EQ rogue and these are some of the people that made them, so starting off at your roots is, once again a great position
You have never played the class, there for you are basing your opinion off a internet video of a class you have no first hand knowledge of, you maybe.. are not starting off from a good point
They never said they wanted to reinvent the wheel, they wanted to bring classic black with some modern changes. You have seen a small fraction of a fraction of a class and you are an expert on how it works?
You don't really have an argument, you have an opinion that you are free to share, as we are free to point out

Sure for a fast paced themepark, not for an immersive oldschool mmo experience.
I'm not proposing Pantheon rogue be like EQ rogue, EQ rogue was a backstab spammer where traps and lockpicking rarely mattered. I too was expecting more of a D&D rogue but definitely not a blander version of WoW's.
Almost every Pantheon gameplay video is centered around rogue, including the most recent one. You also have no idea how much alpha access I have, not that I can confirm or deny. Whose making assumptions now?
Somehow I think poorly copying WoW classes was not what any of the backers had in mind for "bringing back the oldschool feel."
You can literally bring up Pantheon's own gameplay videos to fact check my post. Pantheon rogue is a lazily carbon copied class, without question.

craftseeker · June 2018

Lots of stuff said about rogues being a lazy carbon copy dps design, but think about it. "Sneaking, stealing, spying, infiltrating, disguising, tricking, picking locks, finding & disarming traps," these are all solo activities. So while your creative rogue is doing their thing the rest of the party is standing back and clapping. Meanwhile when the rest of the party is killing that boss, your creative rogue is hiding in the background stealing from everyone's backpacks. OK might be fun in a twisted way, but hardly cooperative game play. Or someone you would want in your party. It would be also a lot of development effort to create rogue specific content that is basically unplayable for all the other classes.

Nope, boring cookie cutter high DPS rogues for me.

Neanderthal · June 2018

t0nyd said:

I can't believe I'm going to say this but I miss a D&D Rogues. Rogues we're about utility and not simply pure dps.

I remember when I tried playing a rogue in the early days of EQ. I remember gradually becoming disillusioned because they were just a light armored damage dealer and none of the other thief abilities really mattered. But that's the way it's going to be when a game is focused entirely around combat.

For the other stuff to matter a MMO would need to be more about the adventure of getting from point A to point B and not just about killing as much stuff as possible as quickly as possible.

Vorthanion · June 2018

I always thought the Rogue would be the perfect "Enchanter" in melee form. Sadly, most games are inundated with melee dps with very little thought given to really give each one more distinctive flavors. They aren't even making the ranger primarily ranged damage, but just another melee focused class with situational ranged gimmicks and now the rogue is just as flavorless.

kitarad · June 2018

I liked the burgler concept Lord of Rings had.

Xarko · June 2018

Rogues have been more or less the same in every single game since the beginning of fantasy games. That is how people like them.. it has its... roguish charm.

Fangrim · June 2018

I agree with the OP. Rogues should be able to fire lazer beams from their eyes and of course should be able to fly, everyone knows rogues should have these basic abilities

midnitewolf · June 2018

So many people, those who have never played the original EQ seem so clueless. Here is the thing. Pantheon isn't trying to reinvent the wheel or be the next best thing, they are looking to resurrect Everquest only perfect it this time around. Therefore, you need to compare Pantheon to Everquest. For those that don't know, Everquest was the first big MMO and honestly probably one of the major reasons we have MMOs today but Everquest wasn't even remotely like MMOs are today but I digress. What I am getting at is that people need to stop comparing it to WoW or any other MMO except old school Everquest. Everquest is free to play by the way so if you don't know EQ, go try it, maybe play a Rogue. Once you do, you will realize that compared to old school EQ, the game they are trying to emulate and resurrect by the way, the new Rogue has a hugely expanded toolbox at his disposal and looks to be massively improved over its original vanilla form. Compared to the EQ Rogue, which is now 19 years old, the Pantheon Rogue is a revolutionary.

iatesand · June 2018

Thebeasttt said:

iatesand said:

Sure for a fast paced themepark, not for an immersive oldschool mmo experience.
I'm not proposing Pantheon rogue be like EQ rogue, EQ rogue was a backstab spammer where traps and lockpicking rarely mattered. I too was expecting more of a D&D rogue but definitely not a blander version of WoW's.
Almost every Pantheon gameplay video is centered around rogue, including the most recent one. You also have no idea how much alpha access I have, not that I can confirm or deny. Whose making assumptions now?
Somehow I think poorly copying WoW classes was not what any of the backers had in mind for "bringing back the oldschool feel."
You can literally bring up Pantheon's own gameplay videos to fact check my post. Pantheon rogue is a lazily carbon copied class, without question.

Again, that is a opinion. and the WoW , EQ, DAoC rouge all played similar it is by definition OLD SCHOOL MMO. You may not like it and you may not feel its immersive enough for you but that is your opinion.
It's a combat game, at the end of the day the utility function is always going to be less then the dps aspect of the game. But even in DnD the rouge class is a huge damage dealer using sneak attack.
If you had alpha access you would not be crying here at the dregs of the mmo community. You would have access to the people that could facilitate change, also its not against the NDA to say you have access, you may want to read it again if of course you have access to it
I disagree with you that the game play is a copy. Yes its similar (here is a hint most Tank classes play the same, most casters so it should not come as a shock to you that you see similarities for the rouge. Personally I think the game play for just about everything is a slightly modernism version EQ1. You cant speak for the backers, you can only speak for yourself. There are players out there that would complain if you changed the game play of their favored class to much. You just don't know
I have watched the live streams, I disagree with you. Your opinion differs from mine but is not more of less valid . I'm sorry for your loss

Mendel · June 2018

If you are complaining about the rogue, remember Brad is designing this game. Expecting him to do different from what his history indicates is going to leave you disappointed. I was hoping he'd change, and got frustrated. I'm still hoping that a rational view won't make me as disappointed as I expect many fervent followers might be.

Vorthanion · June 2018

Well, considering how little abilities like pickpocket, picklock and disguises had any real effect on gameplay in EQ doesn't bode well for Pantheon either, if they are copy pasting from there.

ropenice · June 2018

DDO was they only mmo that I played that had a real rogue. Could do decent dps, but most quests had secret doors, traps, hidden levers and other thievish quest goals, and some of those traps could wipe a party if not found/disarmed. Not sure if we'll ever see that like again on mmo's as combat is highest priority in most.

Sovrath · June 2018

Thebeasttt said:

Because they should probably make room for someone more creative and/or talented. I seriously hope this person isn't designing all the classes because thats some of the most copy paste gameplay I've ever seen. If you watch the most recent streams, Pantheon rogues are watered down WoW rogues. They have the fast yellow energy bar, the ranged blind CC and a bunch of typical generic dps buttons that will likely turn into a mindless rotation.

This is a troubling lack of innovation with a game trying to avoid the themepark branding. Yes it's prealpha but that's the direction rogue has been going since their first stream and this is the best time for feedback. Designing a class with that many similarities to WoW shows a serious lack of understanding for the direction of the project or that person just doesn't care nearly enough.

It's probably goign to be closer to the EQ or Vanguard equivalents.

They never said they were redefining the "old school" mmo. Additionally, this game is only in Alpha right?

Cut them some slack. They might add a few things that differentiate it.

Iselin · June 2018

kitarad said:

I liked the burgler concept Lord of Rings had.

Me too. That was a rogue done well with group play in mind. Their on-demand initiation of fellowship maneuvers was great design that carved out a useful group role for them.

Theocritus · June 2018

Rogue was the most boring class to play in EQ and judging by the dev videos here, it will be the most boring in Pantheon too.

Wellspring · June 2018

Theocritus said:

Rogue was the most boring class to play in EQ and judging by the dev videos here, it will be the most boring in Pantheon too.

Boring to you, but not for others.

Each class is unique. As long as there is one class that you like playing, why try to change the others?

Also, the gameplay footage we've seen so far has been level 20 and below. Way to early to judge any class as the finished product. There are 30 more levels and abilities to be added to make each class more interesting.

Besides, I know Kilsin is a fan of playing rogues. I don't think he'll settle for anything less than the best version for the rogue in Pantheon.

tawess · June 2018

I have always felt that rogues suffer from a split between the fantasy and the functional. Especially the less assasin based ones.

Why?

Because the fantasy have them operating as lone agents for most of the time. Even in a party their role is often that of a urban ranger.. Scouting ahead and securing the way for others or them self. That is a great fatntasy but it does cause some problems when you run them in a MMO. Heck even Nevewinter online that used a magic enfused prestige class to let you play a dragon kin nightcrawler can´t really set a good pace for the fantasy. To fit with the rest of the game systems and not build a class dependancy (sorry guys we can´t go on the raid because Willie Stickyfinger is eating and have homework) it pretty much biols down to the classic glasscannon, the melee version of the spellcaster.

So... There you go.

Utinni · June 2018

I always liked games that split rogues into two sub archetypes. A straight damage style and a more utility based style.

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Who designed the Pantheon rogue?

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