When’s the next PVE only mmorpg coming out? You guys think it will do better?
I think we've pretty solidly entered the era of user-generated content. PvE is super expensive to make, so I think we'll likely see stuff like Conan Exiles and Outpost Zero replacing the space MMOs used to occupy. There are a few in the pipe, and we'll see a few more, but don't expect anything like the early 2000's for a while, unless you count the import of Asian MMOs.
If nothing else, let's hope SotA will become a big warning sign - a lesson for all the developers how not to do it.
Didn't we say this after Vanguard? Or am I mixing up my evil developers?
if anything the fiasco with Vanguard is what led to developers doing shitty crowd funding out of fear of losing creative control or having their funding suddenly ripped away.
I'd bet money on there being little to no repercussions on the CIG end. Crowdfunded money is essentially a gift. Especially at this point with all the negative press around the project. Newer backers can't even claim to have been misled.
This is where so much confusion takes root. All the funds a crowdfunded project receives is income. Now, that doesn't mean they can't move it around and call some of gifts but there are requirements for them to call it a gift. Also, a person giving the money needs to agree to having no expectation of receiving anything in return. The water is murky here at best and I'm no tax professional but I do know there are limits on gifting as an individual and receiving gifts through crowdfunding.
One of the bigger problems with Portalarium receiving all that money, millions of dollars given with the expectation of a return on investment. The rub gets worse when you see where people were only investing, not through legal means but on a wink and a nod because of promises made by the developer that all RMT was legal. The developer even created and provided an exchange platform for people to trade their assets.
Even today as Portalarium searches for ways to save this project RMT traders are reminding them of their obligation to keep IGG balance properly against real dollars.
Like I said, I'm no tax professional but I do know that Portalarium wasn't "accepting" gifts nor were RMT speculators "giving" gifts.
This can be talked about like it's some sort of common and acceptable business practice to bait and switch because people don't understand the finer points of crowdfunding loopholes, but that doesn't just make what happened go away. A bait and switch is a bait and switch. Portalarium took money for the custom avatar heads in 2013. The game went into full persistence in 2016. The game did a commercial launch in 2018. Now a few months past launch and FIVE years since kickstarter happened they get to say they didn't plan properly so they're making the call to drop the reward. Then the gaming community is supposed to give them a pass because people think it's ok to just soak that up and call it crowdfunding?
I'd bet money on there being little to no repercussions on the CIG end. Crowdfunded money is essentially a gift. Especially at this point with all the negative press around the project. Newer backers can't even claim to have been misled.
This is where so much confusion takes root. All the funds a crowdfunded project receives is income. Now, that doesn't mean they can't move it around and call some of gifts but there are requirements for them to call it a gift. Also, a person giving the money needs to agree to having no expectation of receiving anything in return. The water is murky here at best and I'm no tax professional but I do know there are limits on gifting as an individual and receiving gifts through crowdfunding.
One of the bigger problems with Portalarium receiving all that money, millions of dollars given with the expectation of a return on investment. The rub gets worse when you see where people were only investing, not through legal means but on a wink and a nod because of promises made by the developer that all RMT was legal. The developer even created and provided an exchange platform for people to trade their assets.
Even today as Portalarium searches for ways to save this project RMT traders are reminding them of their obligation to keep IGG balance properly against real dollars.
Like I said, I'm no tax professional but I do know that Portalarium wasn't "accepting" gifts nor were RMT speculators "giving" gifts.
This can be talked about like it's some sort of common and acceptable business practice to bait and switch because people don't understand the finer points of crowdfunding loopholes, but that doesn't just make what happened go away. A bait and switch is a bait and switch. Portalarium took money for the custom avatar heads in 2013. The game went into full persistence in 2016. The game did a commercial launch in 2018. Now a few months past launch and FIVE years since kickstarter happened they get to say they didn't plan properly so they're making the call to drop the reward. Then the gaming community is supposed to give them a pass because people think it's ok to just soak that up and call it crowdfunding?
I don't think Red was looking at KSer funds as being gifts from a tax perspective but rather users have little recourse to recover any funds based on non delivery of a specific reward.
Especially when it comes to digital assets, which unlike physical rewards can be more or less freely substituted by the Devs by their declaration the replacement is of similar value.
Note thats what they are doing with the custom heads, (lord forged is equally good, right?) likely doing similar to explain away the lack of shipping.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yea, if SC falls on its face, the inevitable class-action suit alone would likely spell the end to crowdfunding as a serious MMORPG funding route. You can't take AAA levels of funding from consumers then fold without some serious repercussions.
The main issue with independent review is, as you allude: who pays for it? My gut reaction is the platform provider- currently, Kickstarter makes money off doing damn near nothing. At least: nothing unique enough that it couldn't be handled by almost any manner of hosting services. If they're going to make money for essentially nothing, they could at least provide an unbiased and educated review of the project outlook for consumers. The project creators wouldn't like it, but accurate and open information trumps the desire for project creators to be able to confuse marketing with project planning.
I'd bet money on there being little to no repercussions on the CIG end. Crowdfunded money is essentially a gift. Especially at this point with all the negative press around the project. Newer backers can't even claim to have been misled.
The problem with transparency, as Portalarium found, is with how people interpret the information. What I see as a business guy is different from what an actual developer sees, and what Average Joe sees is going to be completely different from both.
It's definitely a strange new system for funding development, and I don't know that there are right answers. Leveraging requirements sounds like a good idea, but it also hurts the tiny projects who are the folks we most want to enable. It's definitely going to be something where a lot of smart people need to iron out all the ramifications of all the options and pick the lesser evil, whatever that ends up being.
That depends upon where and how SC ends. There's precedent for legal action against KSers now, but somewhere down the line SC would've had to start exaggerating or leaving out facts that misled backers.
I don't think Red was looking at KSer funds as being gifts from a tax perspective but rather users have little recourse to recover any funds based on non delivery of a specific reward.
Especially when it comes to digital assets, which unlike physical rewards can be more or less freely substituted by the Devs by their declaration the replacement is of similar value.
Note thats what they are doing with the custom heads, (lord forged is equally good, right?) likely doing similar to explain away the lack of shipping.
Crowdfunded money is relatively free of attachments. True, there has been some precedent for recourse, but I don't think it would match the SC situation. Assuming it actually goes Tango Uniform at some point.
In the cases I can think of, the funds (and remember only something like $4 mil came from KS) never really went into the product. In that case, it violated KS's terms of service and THEY initiated the legal action.
I haven't looked into it hard yet, but I'll try to take a deeper look one of these days soon. Might make for a good article, though one that won't be click-baity enough to get much in the way of views, probably. =P
Yea, if SC falls on its face, the inevitable class-action suit alone would likely spell the end to crowdfunding as a serious MMORPG funding route. You can't take AAA levels of funding from consumers then fold without some serious repercussions.
The main issue with independent review is, as you allude: who pays for it? My gut reaction is the platform provider- currently, Kickstarter makes money off doing damn near nothing. At least: nothing unique enough that it couldn't be handled by almost any manner of hosting services. If they're going to make money for essentially nothing, they could at least provide an unbiased and educated review of the project outlook for consumers. The project creators wouldn't like it, but accurate and open information trumps the desire for project creators to be able to confuse marketing with project planning.
I'd bet money on there being little to no repercussions on the CIG end. Crowdfunded money is essentially a gift. Especially at this point with all the negative press around the project. Newer backers can't even claim to have been misled.
The problem with transparency, as Portalarium found, is with how people interpret the information. What I see as a business guy is different from what an actual developer sees, and what Average Joe sees is going to be completely different from both.
It's definitely a strange new system for funding development, and I don't know that there are right answers. Leveraging requirements sounds like a good idea, but it also hurts the tiny projects who are the folks we most want to enable. It's definitely going to be something where a lot of smart people need to iron out all the ramifications of all the options and pick the lesser evil, whatever that ends up being.
That depends upon where and how SC ends. There's precedent for legal action against KSers now, but somewhere down the line SC would've had to start exaggerating or leaving out facts that misled backers.
I still suspect that SC and CIG will end up just like Freelancer and Digital Anvil. And probably better for it. No idea whether Portalarium can hope for something like that.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I don't think Red was looking at KSer funds as being gifts from a tax perspective but rather users have little recourse to recover any funds based on non delivery of a specific reward.
Especially when it comes to digital assets, which unlike physical rewards can be more or less freely substituted by the Devs by their declaration the replacement is of similar value.
Note thats what they are doing with the custom heads, (lord forged is equally good, right?) likely doing similar to explain away the lack of shipping.
Crowdfunded money is relatively free of attachments. True, there has been some precedent for recourse, but I don't think it would match the SC situation. Assuming it actually goes Tango Uniform at some point.
In the cases I can think of, the funds (and remember only something like $4 mil came from KS) never really went into the product. In that case, it violated KS's terms of service and THEY initiated the legal action.
I haven't looked into it hard yet, but I'll try to take a deeper look one of these days soon. Might make for a good article, though one that won't be click-baity enough to get much in the way of views, probably. =P
Yea, the information I've gleaned is that the project creators would have to mislead the backers in a substantial way that prejudiced their ability to make an informed decision about whether or not to back the project. What hasn't been tested is how far that can be stretched.
I mean, take CoE (simply because it's one of the worst offenders of the timeline issue): would testimony by industry leaders and software development experts indicating that there's no reasonable way Caspian and Co. could've met the original timeline count as substantially misleading backers in a way that prejudiced their ability to make an informed decision about supporting the project? The precedent there is a huge one: if the ruling inadvertently gives project creators too much leeway, then so long as Caspian himself records efforts (no matter how small), he could delay the project indefinitely and simply submit that he doesn't have the funding to develop it any faster. That's a Catch-22 for consumers, who are then faced with abandoning their original outlay or sinking more into it to try and speed up the process.
I never said they couldn't make the heads. I'm sure they can. I was pointing out that you misread the earlier point.
It was never about not being able to do it at all. It was about the amount of time and cost to do so. My guess is that they listed it as a reward, and then realized how much a pain in the ass it'd be to actually do it. Think about it. Best case, someone sends you a picture as an example and tells you what they want from there. That doesn't go straight to the artist, but probably through a community manager who triages those JIRA tickets. Then the artist gets it, takes his best shot at it, and sends it back to the community manager. It then gets sent back to the backer, who has some additional requests, and back it goes. Each step in that process takes time and money, and detracts from effort that could otherwise go into making the game better. It's not a good business move.
So, yes. I think it was a dumb move to include the reward in the first place. Backing out of it I completely understand.
I was limited on word-count and couldn't go into detail on why technical limitations made the effort untenable from a cost perspective when I said, "Richard specifically cited the custom heads promised to some backers, which the team never found a viable solution for, from technical and cost perspectives." I can understand how the AND in that sentence might be confusing for some.
Ya should read that whole blog. They were goin back on kickstarter promises in 2014. There's been five years of this. You were there for this too man. They didnt even honour the basic design of game type they promised. They knew right from the start they really wanted to make a f2p mmo with permanent add on store. You talk a big deal about moral business thomas but outright lyin to your customers aint it. And spinning to try and make it look positive just further gets in the faces of people who know how theyve been treated. They know it. Its too late ta try and tell them what might be they seen what was.
I mean how do ya make the argument without any shame that its a good thang that despite tens of millions more than they ever asked for if they tried to complete sommat they had half started 4 years ago it would kill the game? Man thats complete proof they were incompetent fools an ya try and claim its a sign of good business? I dont get it I really dont. Might as well argue if I try an fix your gas leak an blow up your house that turnin the gas off after the explosion makes me a skilled repair man.
I can see some of the well known real money traderz lying like they always do. I can see em doin that right here yeah. I can see a certain poster here just tryin ta be devils advocate as always an argue against everyone for some shonky reason. But I dont get people who are apparently smart tryin ta still spin when they dont even have the staff any more ta complete episode 2. Its over man. Just do your audience one final honesty and admit it.
I forgot I was one of the 1000 players...wondered why I kept getting their Newsletter. I hate to see any game not perform to expectations, and especially people losing their jobs.
It seems like those who try to bring 'something different' to the table don't make it a high % of the time, but those that rehash things already there, or jump on the bandwagon, have more success which sucks a big one for gamers, IMmostHofO.
I don't think Red was looking at KSer funds as being gifts from a tax perspective but rather users have little recourse to recover any funds based on non delivery of a specific reward.
Especially when it comes to digital assets, which unlike physical rewards can be more or less freely substituted by the Devs by their declaration the replacement is of similar value.
Note thats what they are doing with the custom heads, (lord forged is equally good, right?) likely doing similar to explain away the lack of shipping.
Crowdfunded money is relatively free of attachments. True, there has been some precedent for recourse, but I don't think it would match the SC situation. Assuming it actually goes Tango Uniform at some point.
In the cases I can think of, the funds (and remember only something like $4 mil came from KS) never really went into the product. In that case, it violated KS's terms of service and THEY initiated the legal action.
I haven't looked into it hard yet, but I'll try to take a deeper look one of these days soon. Might make for a good article, though one that won't be click-baity enough to get much in the way of views, probably. =P
Yea, the information I've gleaned is that the project creators would have to mislead the backers in a substantial way that prejudiced their ability to make an informed decision about whether or not to back the project. What hasn't been tested is how far that can be stretched.
I mean, take CoE (simply because it's one of the worst offenders of the timeline issue): would testimony by industry leaders and software development experts indicating that there's no reasonable way Caspian and Co. could've met the original timeline count as substantially misleading backers in a way that prejudiced their ability to make an informed decision about supporting the project? The precedent there is a huge one: if the ruling inadvertently gives project creators too much leeway, then so long as Caspian himself records efforts (no matter how small), he could delay the project indefinitely and simply submit that he doesn't have the funding to develop it any faster. That's a Catch-22 for consumers, who are then faced with abandoning their original outlay or sinking more into it to try and speed up the process.
The idea of how long a dev can exceed their original commitment date is vexing.
In the case of CU two years were promised, it is now 5 plus and looking at best to deliver at the end of 2019.
If it slips too far into 2020 it will have taken 7 years E2E.
IMarc announced receiving substantial new funding from investors ($7M) earlier this year.
Unlike the Crowfall team who say their new funds are primarily for marketing, Marc said CU would be ramping up dev hirings to complete the delivery much sooner.
To his credit Marc has covered the cost over runs from the extended timeline from his personal wallet and promised even without these new funds he would have made sure to deliver the game, but not as "quickly."
So yay for new funds and committed devs, but I have to wonder, without the additional funding would we be looking at 9 or 10 years out the door?
Also to Marc's credit they still offer refunds though it appears that policy may come to an end once beta gets in full swing.
SC similar deal, despite massive funding it's 5 to 7 years in depending who you ask, (also promised a game in 2 yrs) yet even SQ42 doesn't have a published target delivery date.
I watch in fascination to see if backers will ever tire of waiting. In the case of SC I don't think so as long as regular alpha builds keep coming, they are having "fun" after all.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Obviously my sympathy goes to all the people who lost their job. But really, is anyone surprised about this news?
I just wonder if Garriot regrets focusing so much on the whales requests rather than aiming to make a game with a broader appeal.
Based on the Starr Long quote earlier about the potential market for a "Richard Garriott" lead game being in the "millions" I'm thinking the answer to your question is...Yes.
More likely the reaction is one of "WTF" stunned disbelief.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ya should read that whole blog. They were goin back on kickstarter promises in 2014. There's been five years of this. You were there for this too man. They didnt even honour the basic design of game type they promised. They knew right from the start they really wanted to make a f2p mmo with permanent add on store. You talk a big deal about moral business thomas but outright lyin to your customers aint it. And spinning to try and make it look positive just further gets in the faces of people who know how theyve been treated. They know it. Its too late ta try and tell them what might be they seen what was.
I mean how do ya make the argument without any shame that its a good thang that despite tens of millions more than they ever asked for if they tried to complete sommat they had half started 4 years ago it would kill the game? Man thats complete proof they were incompetent fools an ya try and claim its a sign of good business? I dont get it I really dont. Might as well argue if I try an fix your gas leak an blow up your house that turnin the gas off after the explosion makes me a skilled repair man.
I can see some of the well known real money traderz lying like they always do. I can see em doin that right here yeah. I can see a certain poster here just tryin ta be devils advocate as always an argue against everyone for some shonky reason. But I dont get people who are apparently smart tryin ta still spin when they dont even have the staff any more ta complete episode 2. Its over man. Just do your audience one final honesty and admit it.
That's incorrect. If it were true, you'd never be able to kickstart anything. Anyone with any development experience of any type will tell you that draft design never makes it to released design. The KS campaign starts with a concept of what the game is intended to be, and that includes a number of design goals. Goals, not promises. There's not a single game that's been crowdfunded that came out checking every single box they listed during the campaign, unless they were so generically broad the promises were meaningless.
w/r to Shroud's design change... I have to object to that, as well. I've never been under the impression that Shroud was anything other than an MMO. They were really careful not to use that specific wording, but I've been writing about it as an MMO from the beginning and for multiple outlets. That was a marketing move, and I think a bad one, but also one I understand in the context of the time they started. MMOs had a terrible rap and EVERYONE was avoiding the term. If you look at any MMOs launched around the same time, you'll see they didn't call themselves an MMO.
That said, I think it's been pretty obvious that Shroud was an MMO from the start, and one that happened to include an offline option. Every development update has always placed the multiplayer development ahead of the offline development since the first monthly updates started rolling out. If you look at how it was represented by websites that covered it, no one every treated it like anything other than some form of MMO. I know folks wanted an offline game and I can see how some wanted it bad enough to have ignored all the signs pointing towards something else, but that doesn't make it true. Shroud was never an offline game. It was always multiplayer and online first, and everything else second.
I DO feel for people who think otherwise. I think their early marketing direction made it easy for people to convince themselves that the game was something else, so I do think there's some blame there. I will say that in private I've made fun of the gentleman who likely encouraged it to his face a number of times, for what it's worth. I think it was purely a strategic mistake and not done with the intent to deceive.
Obviously my sympathy goes to all the people who lost their job. But really, is anyone surprised about this news?
I just wonder if Garriot regrets focusing so much on the whales requests rather than aiming to make a game with a broader appeal.
I suspect Garriot regrets being forced to make a tired, reheated Ultima pastiche, instead of following the original game concepts. But the fans (and investors) weren't interested in anything new.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
On a side note, the custom heads they did for the two people pictured on their website are some of the most atrocious monstrosities ever created! They look nothing like the faces of the people they were supposed to represent! https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=44528
On a side note, the custom heads they did for the two people pictured on their website are some of the most atrocious monstrosities ever created! They look nothing like the faces of the people they were supposed to represent! https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=44528
I'm a fan of the people on their team and their community.
Once the game is launched and most of the development is done, most software companies have layoffs. This game doesn't appear to have taken off so it makes no sense to keep paying a bigger staff.
w/r to Shroud's design change... I have to object to that, as well. I've never been under the impression that Shroud was anything other than an MMO. They were really careful not to use that specific wording, but I've been writing about it as an MMO from the beginning and for multiple outlets. That was a marketing move, and I think a bad one, but also one I understand in the context of the time they started. MMOs had a terrible rap and EVERYONE was avoiding the term. If you look at any MMOs launched around the same time, you'll see they didn't call themselves an MMO.
So if they avoided tha term...?
Come one again man its in the kickstarter. This is a basic fact you trying to have it both ways about. Aint gettin at ya man but its a blatant spin thing. The kickstarter outright said it wouldnt be an mmo in the faq.
Though Shroud of the Avatar won’t be a massively multiplayer online
role playing game, it will be a multiplayer game. We will be
describing this in more detail in our upcoming community blogs.
The pitch dont even mention ultima online except once in the video. Just because you saw it as an mmo doesnt mean they didnt lie about what they pitched it as. You know they did. Thats why so many backers left so quickly they saw their shoes being pissed on and kept bein told it was just rainin. You try and excuse it even now. That aint moral thomas. It aint.
You say software naturally drifts. Ya didnt address the fact they had the technology for some of the rewards back in 2014. They just couldnt afford to do them then and cant now. Betta to just keep griftin and gettin more cash money in. Because the project was a screw up from the start an they kept cuttin corners and shaftin backers and supportin whales until even the whales left and by now its too late. Stop tryin to have the kickstarter cake and eat it man. Its nottin to do with kickstarter an not everyone screwed up like portalarium did.
It aint even the software stuff for that matter. And physical rewards are seen as a guarantee man. Kickstarters own terms. Tha shroud books aint even done yet with the excuse that "they wont fit in the box". And they wont fit in tha box because they took tha cash money for then spent it and now cant afford full packagin so they cheapin out on that. Why not send it all at once? It aint done man. Far as anyone knows tracy hickman aint signed anythin either.
So even now ya still givin false impressions when any mang with sense knows its over. Tell you what. Ill bet you $50 to go to a charity of your choice ya never see episode 2 in any form except more spin at all. Game wont even make it to the end of the year but damn man theres some desperate mofos still who might pay a fortune even now to avoid admittin that. But ya will never see another episode because there aint enough people left ta fund it.
An no staff. I saw on tha reddit someone just listed all those let go. Its all the crucial people man. They dont have anyone to even make it anymore.
Come on man. Pride aint a virtue in ultima but honesty was. This aint and never will be another ultima. Dont piss on our shoes.
If we agree on that, then I'll take the bet. $50 to the Fisher House (https://www.fisherhouse.org/) if Ep2 comes out, and I'll donate to whatever you pick if it doesn't.
Throughout the entire article, I compare the game to other MMO crafting systems, even calling SotA an MMO at one point directly.
The "Avatar" concept was also touted from the very beginning. It's even in the name. Of course, they couldn't call it Ultima, another company owns the rights. It took time to figure out what they could legally say, but ...Avatar. Lord British. Virtues. It's still not an "Ultima game," but it's always clearly been a very Ultima-oriented game.
I won't explain away mistakes and bad decisions. There are and were plenty of those, but that's not what you're talking about. You're specifically arguing things that are simply not factual.
You could argue that the game shouldn't have been crowdfunded, that's fair. You could argue that they shouldn't have stayed away from the MMO term early on. There are plenty of design choices that could be debated. Those are all available, but you're trying to argue things that just aren't really true in context.
Sure, you can find examples where the team said things other than MMO when pitching the game. If you then listen to what they describe when they talk about it and take it in context, it was clearly always an MMO. Otherwise, why wouldn't we see someone writing on about the new RPG, instead of everyone writing about the new MMO? That point is never going to hold water. There are way too many articles calling the spade a spade for it to be a valid point.
If nothing else, let's hope SotA will become a big warning sign - a lesson for all the developers how not to do it.
Didn't we say this after Vanguard? Or am I mixing up my evil developers?
Whatever you're thinking of, I don't think it's Vangard. That one was pretty much developed by a ton of college students in under a year after the previous team went off the rails.
Folks might not like SotA, and that's a perfectly fair, but it's a complete game and there were never really any staffing issues. In fact, I'd say Shroud is probably a case study in successful crowdfunding. If the design failed, then that's more of an issue with the developers. From the perspective of getting a game funded and building it in a fairly transparent way, then Shroud's been pretty successful at that.
...now, whether it's shown that crowdfunding is a good idea or not... That's a little harder to answer from both sides. Backing based on your perception of someone else's idea and developing a game openly while trying to meet the demands of those perceptions. Both are aspects of crowdfunded-development that have proven to be sticking points.
Why are you still selling this?
This is not a successful transparent design.....they lied on the kickstarter for crying out loud.
Not sure why I am surprised you are still doing this...this is as bad as what you have said in the past, people know that you pretty much rep the company line here.
I've been playing it all day, going from event to event.
The day started with an RP Solstice event. It went long so I had to cut out early in order to go fight (and lose) in the PvP tournament.
Then there was the Goblin Faire, run by the goblin guild (started in UO). It was fantastic, along with the Avatars Radio DJ and usual dancing, there was a petting zoo, goblin ice cream booth (I guess a UO tradition), kissing booth to raise gold for the Aerie Fund, a palisades jump course "Forest of Pain", and a "carnival ride". (Quotes because that one was just an awesome deco, and a goblin in the middle saying "It goes up, it goes around". It was awesome, lots of screenshots).
Finally, the weekend guild hunt, which this time consisted of some officer designed flavor in the form of a jailbreak, investigation, then
Shroud is something special. Those of us that love it have found a long term home.
Shroud is something special alright....especailly if you are invested trying to make money in it, am I right?
Comments
if anything the fiasco with Vanguard is what led to developers doing shitty crowd funding out of fear of losing creative control or having their funding suddenly ripped away.
Especially when it comes to digital assets, which unlike physical rewards can be more or less freely substituted by the Devs by their declaration the replacement is of similar value.
Note thats what they are doing with the custom heads, (lord forged is equally good, right?) likely doing similar to explain away the lack of shipping.
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/custom-avatar-head-now-lord-forged-items.130944/
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Crowdfunded money is relatively free of attachments. True, there has been some precedent for recourse, but I don't think it would match the SC situation. Assuming it actually goes Tango Uniform at some point.
In the cases I can think of, the funds (and remember only something like $4 mil came from KS) never really went into the product. In that case, it violated KS's terms of service and THEY initiated the legal action.
I haven't looked into it hard yet, but I'll try to take a deeper look one of these days soon. Might make for a good article, though one that won't be click-baity enough to get much in the way of views, probably. =P
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I mean, take CoE (simply because it's one of the worst offenders of the timeline issue): would testimony by industry leaders and software development experts indicating that there's no reasonable way Caspian and Co. could've met the original timeline count as substantially misleading backers in a way that prejudiced their ability to make an informed decision about supporting the project? The precedent there is a huge one: if the ruling inadvertently gives project creators too much leeway, then so long as Caspian himself records efforts (no matter how small), he could delay the project indefinitely and simply submit that he doesn't have the funding to develop it any faster. That's a Catch-22 for consumers, who are then faced with abandoning their original outlay or sinking more into it to try and speed up the process.
Man I aint smart but I know the difference between admittting that and being selectively dumb. The kickstarter rewards aint optional. The terms and conditions make that clear. Ya have ta know this. Portalarium shouldnt have used kickstarter if they hadnt correctly tested and budgeted to complete the rewards. Course we know now they hadnt. Theyd made up any figure just to get out of the bankruptcy they were facing after blowing all the cash money they had earned before the kickstarter.
Ya should read that whole blog. They were goin back on kickstarter promises in 2014. There's been five years of this. You were there for this too man. They didnt even honour the basic design of game type they promised. They knew right from the start they really wanted to make a f2p mmo with permanent add on store. You talk a big deal about moral business thomas but outright lyin to your customers aint it. And spinning to try and make it look positive just further gets in the faces of people who know how theyve been treated. They know it. Its too late ta try and tell them what might be they seen what was.
I mean how do ya make the argument without any shame that its a good thang that despite tens of millions more than they ever asked for if they tried to complete sommat they had half started 4 years ago it would kill the game? Man thats complete proof they were incompetent fools an ya try and claim its a sign of good business? I dont get it I really dont. Might as well argue if I try an fix your gas leak an blow up your house that turnin the gas off after the explosion makes me a skilled repair man.
I can see some of the well known real money traderz lying like they always do. I can see em doin that right here yeah. I can see a certain poster here just tryin ta be devils advocate as always an argue against everyone for some shonky reason. But I dont get people who are apparently smart tryin ta still spin when they dont even have the staff any more ta complete episode 2. Its over man. Just do your audience one final honesty and admit it.
It seems like those who try to bring 'something different' to the table don't make it a high % of the time, but those that rehash things already there, or jump on the bandwagon, have more success which sucks a big one for gamers, IMmostHofO.
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
In the case of CU two years were promised, it is now 5 plus and looking at best to deliver at the end of 2019.
If it slips too far into 2020 it will have taken 7 years E2E.
IMarc announced receiving substantial new funding from investors ($7M) earlier this year.
Unlike the Crowfall team who say their new funds are primarily for marketing, Marc said CU would be ramping up dev hirings to complete the delivery much sooner.
To his credit Marc has covered the cost over runs from the extended timeline from his personal wallet and promised even without these new funds he would have made sure to deliver the game, but not as "quickly."
So yay for new funds and committed devs, but I have to wonder, without the additional funding would we be looking at 9 or 10 years out the door?
Also to Marc's credit they still offer refunds though it appears that policy may come to an end once beta gets in full swing.
SC similar deal, despite massive funding it's 5 to 7 years in depending who you ask, (also promised a game in 2 yrs) yet even SQ42 doesn't have a published target delivery date.
I watch in fascination to see if backers will ever tire of waiting. In the case of SC I don't think so as long as regular alpha builds keep coming, they are having "fun" after all.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But really, is anyone surprised about this news?
I just wonder if Garriot regrets focusing so much on the whales requests rather than aiming to make a game with a broader appeal.
More likely the reaction is one of "WTF" stunned disbelief.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That's incorrect. If it were true, you'd never be able to kickstart anything. Anyone with any development experience of any type will tell you that draft design never makes it to released design. The KS campaign starts with a concept of what the game is intended to be, and that includes a number of design goals. Goals, not promises. There's not a single game that's been crowdfunded that came out checking every single box they listed during the campaign, unless they were so generically broad the promises were meaningless.
w/r to Shroud's design change... I have to object to that, as well. I've never been under the impression that Shroud was anything other than an MMO. They were really careful not to use that specific wording, but I've been writing about it as an MMO from the beginning and for multiple outlets. That was a marketing move, and I think a bad one, but also one I understand in the context of the time they started. MMOs had a terrible rap and EVERYONE was avoiding the term. If you look at any MMOs launched around the same time, you'll see they didn't call themselves an MMO.
That said, I think it's been pretty obvious that Shroud was an MMO from the start, and one that happened to include an offline option. Every development update has always placed the multiplayer development ahead of the offline development since the first monthly updates started rolling out. If you look at how it was represented by websites that covered it, no one every treated it like anything other than some form of MMO. I know folks wanted an offline game and I can see how some wanted it bad enough to have ignored all the signs pointing towards something else, but that doesn't make it true. Shroud was never an offline game. It was always multiplayer and online first, and everything else second.
I DO feel for people who think otherwise. I think their early marketing direction made it easy for people to convince themselves that the game was something else, so I do think there's some blame there. I will say that in private I've made fun of the gentleman who likely encouraged it to his face a number of times, for what it's worth. I think it was purely a strategic mistake and not done with the intent to deceive.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
On a side note, the custom heads they did for the two people pictured on their website are some of the most atrocious monstrosities ever created!
They look nothing like the faces of the people they were supposed to represent!
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=44528
I'm meh on the game.
[mod edit]
Come one again man its in the kickstarter. This is a basic fact you trying to have it both ways about. Aint gettin at ya man but its a blatant spin thing. The kickstarter outright said it wouldnt be an mmo in the faq.
The pitch dont even mention ultima online except once in the video. Just because you saw it as an mmo doesnt mean they didnt lie about what they pitched it as. You know they did. Thats why so many backers left so quickly they saw their shoes being pissed on and kept bein told it was just rainin. You try and excuse it even now. That aint moral thomas. It aint.
You say software naturally drifts. Ya didnt address the fact they had the technology for some of the rewards back in 2014. They just couldnt afford to do them then and cant now. Betta to just keep griftin and gettin more cash money in. Because the project was a screw up from the start an they kept cuttin corners and shaftin backers and supportin whales until even the whales left and by now its too late. Stop tryin to have the kickstarter cake and eat it man. Its nottin to do with kickstarter an not everyone screwed up like portalarium did.
It aint even the software stuff for that matter. And physical rewards are seen as a guarantee man. Kickstarters own terms. Tha shroud books aint even done yet with the excuse that "they wont fit in the box". And they wont fit in tha box because they took tha cash money for then spent it and now cant afford full packagin so they cheapin out on that. Why not send it all at once? It aint done man. Far as anyone knows tracy hickman aint signed anythin either.
So even now ya still givin false impressions when any mang with sense knows its over. Tell you what. Ill bet you $50 to go to a charity of your choice ya never see episode 2 in any form except more spin at all. Game wont even make it to the end of the year but damn man theres some desperate mofos still who might pay a fortune even now to avoid admittin that. But ya will never see another episode because there aint enough people left ta fund it.
An no staff. I saw on tha reddit someone just listed all those let go. Its all the crucial people man. They dont have anyone to even make it anymore.
Come on man. Pride aint a virtue in ultima but honesty was. This aint and never will be another ultima. Dont piss on our shoes.
If we agree on that, then I'll take the bet. $50 to the Fisher House (https://www.fisherhouse.org/) if Ep2 comes out, and I'll donate to whatever you pick if it doesn't.
You're definitely wrong about the MMO piece, and about Ultima. Here's one of the first articles I wrote about the game (most of the earlier haved aged out into antiquity): http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/shroud-of-the-avatar-exclusive-first-look-at-crafting
Throughout the entire article, I compare the game to other MMO crafting systems, even calling SotA an MMO at one point directly.
The "Avatar" concept was also touted from the very beginning. It's even in the name. Of course, they couldn't call it Ultima, another company owns the rights. It took time to figure out what they could legally say, but ...Avatar. Lord British. Virtues. It's still not an "Ultima game," but it's always clearly been a very Ultima-oriented game.
I won't explain away mistakes and bad decisions. There are and were plenty of those, but that's not what you're talking about. You're specifically arguing things that are simply not factual.
You could argue that the game shouldn't have been crowdfunded, that's fair. You could argue that they shouldn't have stayed away from the MMO term early on. There are plenty of design choices that could be debated. Those are all available, but you're trying to argue things that just aren't really true in context.
Sure, you can find examples where the team said things other than MMO when pitching the game. If you then listen to what they describe when they talk about it and take it in context, it was clearly always an MMO. Otherwise, why wouldn't we see someone writing on about the new RPG, instead of everyone writing about the new MMO? That point is never going to hold water. There are way too many articles calling the spade a spade for it to be a valid point.
Why are you still selling this?
This is not a successful transparent design.....they lied on the kickstarter for crying out loud.
Not sure why I am surprised you are still doing this...this is as bad as what you have said in the past, people know that you pretty much rep the company line here.
Shroud is something special alright....especailly if you are invested trying to make money in it, am I right?
Dance parties for the win....creepy as hell.
This is awesome! Karma.
As for the "poor souls" losing their jobs...guilt by association...no sympathy.
Hopefully the whole thing will be shut down by the end of the year.
~~ postlarval ~~