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NO PVP=NO MMO
SpaceRoy
Member Posts: 32
Ok, so the topic title is a bit exaggerated, but the truth is that when developers remove or impede pvp, the level of player interaction lessens.
I played an online minigolf game where you played against another player. You could choose to play with or without ball collisions. Many players wanted to play with collisions off because it was often used to knock the other players ball to difficult positions. But in doing that, they were no longer involved in a multiplayer game. With collisions off, they might just as well have played with themselves and compare scores with a scoreboard.
There are TWO ways of making a player act in a certain way.
1) Game mechanics
2) World mechanics
The goal when making a game should ALWAYS be using 2)
By looking at real life, we do KNOW that it is possible to be left fairly in peace using "world mechanics" since changing the "game mechanics" isn't possible, and you can sit (hopefully comfortably) at your computer reading this.
Bad pvp=Bad development
(I liked EVE pvp but i quit after 3 months mainly because of the skill system, but thats another story)
Comments
If i want to kill AI's then why play MMO at all? I can just go and play single player games and turn voice chat on and there you have it: pure pve "MMO" (ok, bit exaggeration there
thats not true imo. i got to confess i dont really care that much about pvp. i like to compete with other players in a diffrent way. to me its about pve. beeing as good as i can at what my class is supposed to be good at (tanking, healing, making damage, calming or hunting solo). to me its still an MMO.
I disagree. while i do agree that PVP can make a game utterly awesome (UO for example), i also think that a game having a lack of PVP doesn't neccessarily make it a bad game.
Everquest for example was the 2nd best MMO i've played (after UO), why? because, even though pvp was lacking, there was still a HUGE amount of player interaction when it came to grouping and killing monsters. you don't have to be hacking each other to peices to interact, infact some would say that grouping and working together to overcome a particularly difficult foe would be considered as more interactive than PVP.
infact, to be absolutely honest I can't name a game that i've actually enjoyed pvp wise since ultima online. i've played pretty much every MMO, and the pvp in each and every one has blown. it's been all about how high level your character is, what items he has etc, it's just not about player skill anymore.
Just, LOL.
Kudos on removing "multiplayer" from MMORPG, keep on soloing.
In this topic, by PvP what you really mean is competition.
PvP means players fighting other players. That is, in and of itself, a level of competition...but it is not the only form of competition. Competition often includes:
Racing to reach the top level.
Having multiple characters at a top level.
Maxing out skills/abilities.
Being the first to complete a quest or all quests.
First to kill a mob (huge competition here on a guild level in raid-centered games).
First to wear unique equipment.
etc...
The list goes on and on. Competition drives people. PvP doesn't drive everyone.
Devs in my opinion have spent way too much time, effort, and money chasing after the niche market which is PvP.
PvP is great, I enjoy it... but I also enjoy other aspects. If true PvP was that popular, more people would play Planetside or games like it. The successful MMOs don't concentrate too much on one niche of the playerbase like PvPers, RPers, hardcore, casual, raiders, small groups, soloists, questers, grinders, etc. MMOs fail by alienating too many of these groups so they can focus on just one of them.
Future successful MMOs I predict will do PvP better, but emphasize it less.
Oh, and I believe as many or more MMO players probably enjoy co-operative gameplay as competitive gameplay.
No, actually, as far as i understood it, the OP was talking about PVP in regards to player interaction more than it's front value of just "competition".
Following Spaceroy's argument, wich i agree with, if you take the 2 posterboys for the MMO genre regarding PVP vs PVE, you see that in a PVE orientated game (like WoW), the level of "interaction" between players ( read Massively MULTIPLAYER-ness) consists of:
-Solo-questing (Whats multiplayer about that? ),
-Selling stuff on the AH ,where you just put something up and hope it sells. You'd incidentally think that this would push players to interact, but completely fails at this since the whole deal is done through an NPC middleman and is done in almost complete anonymity, without the players even meeting or talking to each other. No barter, no negociation, IMHO a missed opportunity.
-An afterthought PVP system where cooperation isnt a requirement (e.g. Damage dealing classes not teaming up in battlegrounds so they can be more honor point efficient).
-And finnally, instanced content where you do have to team up to defeat certain challenges/bosses (Ragnaros, Nefarian etc). There is interaction here with the organisation, the tactics and other things such as DKP systems run by the players... But i'd like to stress that an *Instance* such as MC in WoW is no different than a private counter-strike server running De_Dust. Where the hell did the "MASSIVE" part of "MMO" go?
Now if you take a PVP orientated MMO such as Eve-Online (i'd like to say UO but i havnt tried that game yet). PVP's main purpose isn't to make people suffer through loss or be 5up4r Hardcore 1337 like most of the griefers, fanboys, forumwarriors, hackers and trolls would make you believe (especially on these forums
). It actually brings out LOTS of features that arn't necessarily tied to 1 player beating on another, here's a few examples of what a pvp system with death penalties bring by making players think before they act or just pvp in general.:
-It pushes players to create Guilds/Alliances at their leisure (as opposed to forcing you to take only 5 rogues, 5 paladins, 5 priests etc to make up a balanced 40 player raid, thereby pretty much forcing you to have only 5 rogue friends maximum). Due to the unpredictable circumstances of PVP.
- Introduces some rare concepts into gaming such as player run diplomacy, cease-fires, truces, laws, economic relations, political systems/command structures, procedures, reputations...
- Allows player owned/conquerable territories (as opposed to all pve orientated games), and non-instanced housing (unlike Everquest 2...) that makes sense/serves an economic/military purpose (=/= SWG...).
The list goes on...
Heck even a PVP slanted game like Eve was played by a proportionally huge amount of PVE-ers, who also owned territory in "free for all PVP zones" by hiring PVP-ers to defend their assets. Those people dont like PVP but they stay because they love the freedom and the level of INTERACTION provided by the game.
PVP isn't a "genre", PVP isn't just a "feature" and neither is it a "playerbase niche" , PVP is a gameplay mechanic.
My long 2c.
YES!
r0guy has caught the essence of what I'm trying to say! I have nothing further to comment on that.
apertotes, I wrote a post in your thread.
I think its wise to have a pvp option in any new mmorpg. No matter if its just a few servers the option needs to be there. Look at DDO for example, what are they to do after you grind grind grind dungeons? Not a thing. Check out EQ2, i remember reading on one of the EQ2 forums where they said there would not be pvp in EQ2, well now there is pvp.
Its a good marketing strategy, why do you want to lock out that big of a market. The people from Korea would not be able to play I wouldnt think without PVP, if you look at Lineage and Lineage 2 sell's numbers.
Actually from someone in EQ2 early friends&family beta to current they never said NO pvp.They said NO pvp planned for now.That was said over 1 year ago.
Also everyone knows there is a market for pvp but unlike pve the pvp market is fragmented.
Someone want all loot pvp,some wants little loot pvp,some want no loot pvp,some want pvp everywhere,some want pvp in certain zones.
Afterall,how many times have we seen "pvper" on this post say WoW is carebear -it has pvp.
Its a huge market i agree but very fragmented.