Why I fear the log out in a dungeon feature won't work?

Amathe · August 2018

" there will also be ways for players to keep their group together even if some members of the group can play longer than others or at different times." - Pantheon FAQ

Let me start by admitting that we (and certainly not me) do not know the details of this system yet, so it is probably too early to critique it. Still, I have concerns.

This system seems to assume that you will be grouped with close friends and family who will stick together no matter what because, I suppose, they really like you. But in reality, seldom is a 6 man group comprised of your two brothers, your uncle, and your mom and dad. There usually are going to be people in the group who are only there because the group had an opening the evening when the group was formed.

When a player logs off, nearly always they will be replaced and the group will play on. If the entire group logs off, one or more of them will log back on before the others, and they will then either replace everyone else or leave the group for other pursuits.

The idea that 6 players will all have the patience to wait for all the other ones to log back on (nay, on the same day and hour even) doesn't seem to be cognizant of modern gameplay. Heck, I'm not sure you could have pulled that off on a dependable basis in Everquest.

Yes you will have guildmates, but I don't see them waiting days before continuing a dungeon crawl.

I could kick myself for not asking more about this in the live stream.

I want to believe in it, but it currently exceeds my imagination.

Kyleran · August 2018

Clearly "elven magic" will be employed by the Pantheon dev's to make it all work.

Keep the faith.

Neanderthal · August 2018

I think it would be a good system if a game were all about difficult traveling from point A to point B. More along the lines of what people used to do in pencil and paper games. But if a game is about sitting in a certain spot killing the same things over and over then you are right, it doesn't make much sense.

And if a game ultimately revolves around big raids, which I'm certain Pantheon will, then a system like this becomes even more pointless.

Sovrath · August 2018

I don't remember them talking about a "system."

Just that you log out in a dungeon? What is this "system?"

I remember in Lineage 2 we would log out and then hours or a day or so after we would log in and either have our guild mates join us or we would join another group in the dungeon.

I recall once logging out because I was waiting for a boss and it didn't spawn and the next evening I logged in to find some guild mates already at the boss with some others. Joined them and got the credit.

Maybe it's nothing more than this?

I think some players are looking for absolutes/assurances when there aren't any.

Neanderthal · August 2018

Sovrath said:

I don't remember them talking about a "system."

Just that you log out in a dungeon? What is this "system?"

I remember in Lineage 2 we would log out and then hours or a day or so after we would log in and either have our guild mates join us or we would join another group in the dungeon.

I recall once logging out because I was waiting for a boss and it didn't spawn and the next evening I logged in to find some guild mates already at the boss with some others. Joined them and got the credit.

Maybe it's nothing more than this?

I think some players are looking for absolutes/assurances when there aren't any.

The idea, as I understand it, is to have a group of people linked together even when they log out. So that when one logs in he/she will appear wherever the group happens to be. So if you're linked together with your brother Fred and he is already in the game sitting on the top of Big Rock Candy Mountain camping the Hobo king for the magical stogy +10, when you log in you'll pop in right beside him. Which, as Amathe was pointing out, will be kind of silly if Fred is already in a full group of other people.

Amathe · August 2018

Sovrath said:

Maybe it's nothing more than this?

I think some players are looking for absolutes/assurances when there aren't any.

I don't think they would have included it in their FAQ if it was just the same thing as every other game. And I can't cite you chapter and verse, but they have spoken of it before as some type of feature they are developing.

Sovrath · August 2018

Amathe said:

Sovrath said:

Maybe it's nothing more than this?

I think some players are looking for absolutes/assurances when there aren't any.

I don't think they would have included it in their FAQ if it was just the same thing as every other game. And I can't cite you chapter and verse, but they have spoken of it before as some type of feature they are developing.

I suppose if it's what Neanderthal is saying then "it's a system."

I suppose I should add then it's "just another tool in the toolbox" if that's their system.

Just a way to make it easier for former groups to join. In the end it's about the players and communication. In some cases this will work and in others it won't.

Octagon7711 · August 2018

How easy will it be for first time players to join groups?

Mendel · August 2018

All this 'Save my spot' group logic is another form of the hated fast travel. It's a convenience feature.

Also, I hope that the 'login-to-group' takes other factors into account before it ports your character to this group. Was the person being ported actually wanted in the group? What if the person logging in made some crass or crude remarks that upset one of the group members? Is it dependent on the group leaders opinion? What if the group doesn't have room for another person of that person's class/role, causing the character to be ported somewhere they don't want to go or to a group with people they don't want to group with? Will this porting circumvent gated content, such as flags or level requirements or the still-too-undefined-and-mysterious-for-my-tastes Atmosphere system? (Group looking for protection from fire needed for Fire-locked region, character leaves before finding protection, group finishes and moves into locked Fire region).

The ability to port to a group on login also seems very prone to being abused.

Knytta · August 2018

I got the idea that Dungeons are designed so there are obvious spots to camp out and next day even if your friends are not playing there will probably be others hanging out in that spot so you can make a group. There will of course be issues with trains to those places but design wise it is an easy solution that is hard to abuse.

Knytta · August 2018

Octagon7711 said:

How easy will it be for first time players to join groups?

Proper guilds will have to have some in guild method to facilitate that, I guess it will be a bigger problem after Pantheon has been on the market for some time. If you arrived late to EQ, or got behind in leveling it wasn't fun.

Nightbringe1 · August 2018

Mendel said:

All this 'Save my spot' group logic is another form of the hated fast travel. It's a convenience feature.

Just give Summoners "Summon Teammate" and I won't care.

Not that I won't use the feature, since I bring a preset group to the game with me. It's just that it won't really matter as long as summoners can summon their teammates.

Mendel · August 2018

Nightbringe1 said:

Mendel said:

All this 'Save my spot' group logic is another form of the hated fast travel. It's a convenience feature.

Just give Summoners "Summon Teammate" and I won't care.

Not that I won't use the feature, since I bring a preset group to the game with me. It's just that it won't really matter as long as summoners can summon their teammates.

I'd lump all 'come here' and 'go there' spells with all porting abilities and treat it as a support role. Putting any function in a single class creates an unnatural demand for a specific class, requiring a specific percentage of the population to play that class. Big difference if the population contains 1/12th of the classes with a specific group-enabling function and 1/4th of the classes able to provide the same function.

Amathe · August 2018

I also keep thinking of my efforts to save 4 seats for my family in a crowded movie theatre, and all that comes with attempting that.

Lokero · August 2018

I just assume it'll be something along the lines of the "Teleport to Friend" system in GW2, only without the consumable item charges.
That's not how I remember reading it, but that's likely how it'll end up, if they keep it.

Knytta said:

I got the idea that Dungeons are designed so there are obvious spots to camp out and next day even if your friends are not playing there will probably be others hanging out in that spot so you can make a group. There will of course be issues with trains to those places but design wise it is an easy solution that is hard to abuse.

I would certainly hope, if the dungeons literally take hours to get through, that they set up some type of "safe rooms" for things like this. I mean, they don't need a giant S engraved on the ground where you can set up your tent and save, but the game logging you back in to a nearby safety spot would be the only sensible solution.

Nightbringe1 · August 2018

Mendel said:

Nightbringe1 said:

Mendel said:

All this 'Save my spot' group logic is another form of the hated fast travel. It's a convenience feature.

Just give Summoners "Summon Teammate" and I won't care.

Not that I won't use the feature, since I bring a preset group to the game with me. It's just that it won't really matter as long as summoners can summon their teammates.

I'd lump all 'come here' and 'go there' spells with all porting abilities and treat it as a support role. Putting any function in a single class creates an unnatural demand for a specific class, requiring a specific percentage of the population to play that class. Big difference if the population contains 1/12th of the classes with a specific group-enabling function and 1/4th of the classes able to provide the same function.

Call of the Hero was always unique to the Magician class in EQ.

Summoners are the Pantheon equivalent and it would be nice if they also had this bit of utility.

svann · August 2018

The other trick was that a rogue or a FD class could drag your corpse to the group. Dunno if corpse dragging will be a thing, but it should be.

asteldiancaliskan · August 2018

Pretty sure they basically intend for there to be safe areas to camp out, so when you return you are not insta killed. Handy for people wanting to play till the end of the session before camping rather than soend the last 30 min or more trying to get out.

Beyond this, pretty sure they intend to have a caravan system like VG had, where you can be thethered to a group of friends, given the option of logging in wherever they have travelled to since you last logged.

kitarad · August 2018

I recall a few times I was so tired after hours of playing I had fallen asleep deep in the dungeon in EQ and my guildmates brought others in and ported me out to safety while I was still asleep.

Mendel · August 2018

Nightbringe1 said:

Mendel said:

Nightbringe1 said:

Mendel said:

All this 'Save my spot' group logic is another form of the hated fast travel. It's a convenience feature.

Just give Summoners "Summon Teammate" and I won't care.

Not that I won't use the feature, since I bring a preset group to the game with me. It's just that it won't really matter as long as summoners can summon their teammates.

I'd lump all 'come here' and 'go there' spells with all porting abilities and treat it as a support role. Putting any function in a single class creates an unnatural demand for a specific class, requiring a specific percentage of the population to play that class. Big difference if the population contains 1/12th of the classes with a specific group-enabling function and 1/4th of the classes able to provide the same function.

Call of the Hero was always unique to the Magician class in EQ.
Summoners are the Pantheon equivalent and it would be nice if they also had this bit of utility.

If Calling a character becomes the normal 'expected' behavior when replacing a group member, this functionality needs to not be limited to a single class. Otherwise, it will require too many characters to be the Summoner class. It's alright to give this to the Summoner class. Making it exclusive to the Summoner class can create issues and limit the functionality.

Kyleran · August 2018

kitarad said:

I recall a few times I was so tired after hours of playing I had fallen asleep deep in the dungeon in EQ and my guildmates brought others in and ported me out to safety while I was still asleep.

What nice guildies. I recall flying in a large fleet in EVE one time and we camped some gate for hours.

I suddenly jerked awake from my recliner to find myself in my Battleship all alone 20 hops behind enemy lines.

I quickly logged out and flew a couple of alt scouts over and escorted it back to safety.

Still, the outcome was better than most other times when nodding off, normally woke up floating in my pod or back in station and having to look up what happened on the kill logs.

In EVE he who falls behind gets left behind....pirate's code of course.

And greatly mocked and / or admonished later.

kitarad · August 2018

Kyleran said:

kitarad said:

I recall a few times I was so tired after hours of playing I had fallen asleep deep in the dungeon in EQ and my guildmates brought others in and ported me out to safety while I was still asleep.

What nice guildies. I recall flying in a large fleet in EVE one time and we camped some gate for hours.

I suddenly jerked awake from my recliner to find myself in my Battleship all alone 20 hops behind enemy lines.

I quickly logged out and flew a couple of alt scouts over and escorted it back to safety.

Still, the outcome was better than most other times when nodding off, normally woke up floating in my pod or back in station and having to look up what happened on the kill logs.

In EVE he who falls behind gets left behind....pirate's code of course.

And greatly mocked and / or admonished later.

These were very good friends and it was quite difficult usually I was the only one able to teleport in our group so they would have to bring a druid or wizard by Call of the Hero or just get someone in a neighbouring room in the same dungeon to join and then bind in the room and teleport out while all the others waited in the room. Then the druid or wizard would gate back to bind spot. All of which would have put them out considerably but they were always willing to do it for others as I would have done so too.

I feel it was a different time especially considering the loss of levels leaving me in an area where I can be killed and then have the difficulty to recover my corpse would not be something they themselves would wish upon me or themselves. People were truly different those heydays of gaming and I sorely miss these types of considerations players had for each other.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Call_of_the_Hero

Wizards also had a spell (Translocate) that can send a person back to their bind point but a lot of casters tended to bind themselves to the outside of a dungeon. They can also translocate them to various places. I am not sure if the person it is cast upon has a confirmation dialogue box and that would not help if one is asleep.

I think @Kyleran what you said about EvE is not an experience I would have ever liked or wanted. I prefer the way the people in Everquest worked to help a mate who fell asleep vastly above your experience but then these are two different games.

This is why I am still wondering how anyone can still insist that a solely PvE game is not an MMORPG because it is not open world or FFA PvP after all the experiences I have had working with others in Everquest and other PvE games over the years. That shallow and restricted point of view is laughable.

Scot · August 2018

kitarad said:

I recall a few times I was so tired after hours of playing I had fallen asleep deep in the dungeon in EQ and my guildmates brought others in and ported me out to safety while I was still asleep.

This is one of the many reasons to use a headset or mic and speakers in a dungeon.

Kyleran · August 2018

Scot said:

kitarad said:

I recall a few times I was so tired after hours of playing I had fallen asleep deep in the dungeon in EQ and my guildmates brought others in and ported me out to safety while I was still asleep.

This is one of the many reasons to use a headset or mic and speakers in a dungeon.

Yes, those can be quite helpful, but I've slept through my corp mates yelling for me to wake up.

It is a really comfy recliner.

kitarad · August 2018

Kyleran said:

Scot said:

kitarad said:

I recall a few times I was so tired after hours of playing I had fallen asleep deep in the dungeon in EQ and my guildmates brought others in and ported me out to safety while I was still asleep.

This is one of the many reasons to use a headset or mic and speakers in a dungeon.

Yes, those can be quite helpful, but I've slept through my corp mates yelling for me to wake up.

It is a really comfy recliner.

I am no better I slept through a blaring house alarm once.

Amathe · August 2018

This is how I picture @Kyleran's corp mates trying to be heard and wake him up.

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Why I fear the log out in a dungeon feature won't work?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Why I fear the log out in a dungeon feature won't work?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV