MMO grouping is only like tabletop grouping if you happen to be lucky enough to have a group of friends who like the same things you like and have a schedule flexible enough that you can all get together to do what you want to do when you want to do it.
Try going to a street corner and getting some random strangers to come to your house and play D&D with you. How long do you think it would take you before you say "screw that mess, I think I'll just play solitaire."
It really isn't too hard to figure out why modern games cater to solo players more and more. It's because those tight groups of friends playing together are not the norm, they are the exception.
Your experience and my experience are the complete opposites. I've never once had a hard time finding people to play board games, tabletop games, or MMORPGs with.
First and foremost, you don't go up to the random stranger on the street corner, who may or may not have an interest in tabletop. You ask strangers in an environment where everyone is already primed and ready for tabletop, like an online forum, or a game shop, or a convention, or a conference, etc.
It's a primed audience, and they are already halfway there, because they at least have an interest in the same thing as you.
Honestly, finding people to play games with isn't rocket science. You go to the places where gamers congregate, whether that's in-game, Reddit, forums, Discord, social media, and beyond.
You be friendly, you reach out, you don't assume the worst of everyone (even though, yes, there are a lot of dirtbags out there), and you make friends.
EVERYONE started off as strangers.
Been there, done that... but that was back in the day where most of us were there "already primed and ready."
That has not been the case for a very long time as games were developed more and more for mass markets attempting (somewhat successfully) to attract non-traditional audiences.
Now I know you're developing a niche game without trying to bring in random strangers with other interests into it. As such your approach to forced grouping might work if you're successful in attracting a community that will behave as we all used to behave in MMOs 20 years ago.
And I sincerely wish you all the luck in the world making your game and having that system work. I'll watch from the sidelines with interest to see how it all works out.
As to how this concept would work if applied to mainstream AAA MMOs, I'll remain very skeptical that there is any practical universal application in an environment with today's much more diverse crowds.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Forced grouping says it all, it isn't fun or happens organically, you are simply forced to do it. Most people tend to avoid that which they are being pushed into doing. All it is right now is dungeons and world bosses, why else would you group? Its a combat and loot thing.
How about social interaction through crafting, making it a fun and essential role. How about town and city building/communities which pay off through marketplaces, crafting stations etc. How about travelling with caravans or on a boat run by an actual crew? How about exploring parties, roaming musicians, a theatre group, a burglars den?
Hoe about making it FUN? How about stop making it about COMBAT and start making it about COMMUNITY?
Forced grouping means you have failed to make your game fun so players would do it naturally because they want to...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Best post on the topic I’ve seen in awhile. @Renfail, I’ve been waiting for you comment on it.
Every single thing mentioned there, is on our table and in the works. We've done something like 400+ YouTube videos, newsletters, blog posts, podcasts, Q/As, AMAs, and beyond, during which we've talked about all of those elements, and beyond.
Carvans? Check. It's one of the core systems to Volume 1.
Social interaction through crafting? Check. Boy, you should see what we have planned for crafting, not just in Volume I, but in Volume II and beyond.
Player-crafted cities? Check. (Volume II with the return of magic)
Boats with crews? Check. (Volume III with the launch of the Island Nations; this includes pirates)
The thing is...people aren't going to know these things unless they are over on our site, paying attention to what we're building. We haven't once gone into "marketing" phase; instead, we are "heads down, noses to the grindstone" and building things at our own pace.
We write blog posts, which places like MMORPG.com and Massively and Reddit occassionally pick up on. But out of those 400+ videos/posts/podcasts/etc., these outlets have MAYBE only touched on 20-30 of them over the past few years. And players aren't going to know about the things we are working on if they only pay attention to clickbait articles that barely scratch the surface of what we're working on.
And...we aren't there yet. We're fleshing out the combat side of things. Rich is on crafting presently (should be making a debut later this year), while Bobby grinds out combat/adventuring. We've got two programmers, so things go slowly.
We're hiring for generalist programmers So anyone who wants to help us speed things up, feel free to drop an application! http://stormhavenstudios.com/careers
Forced grouping says it all, it isn't fun or happens organically, you are simply forced to do it. Most people tend to avoid that which they are being pushed into doing. All it is right now is dungeons and world bosses, why else would you group? Its a combat and loot thing.
How about social interaction through crafting, making it a fun and essential role. How about town and city building/communities which pay off through marketplaces, crafting stations etc. How about travelling with caravans or on a boat run by an actual crew? How about exploring parties, roaming musicians, a theatre group, a burglars den?
Hoe about making it FUN? How about stop making it about COMBAT and start making it about COMMUNITY?
Forced grouping means you have failed to make your game fun so players would do it naturally because they want to...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Best post on the topic I’ve seen in awhile. @Renfail, I’ve been waiting for you comment on it.
Every single thing mentioned there, is on our table and in the works. We've done something like 400+ YouTube videos, newsletters, blog posts, podcasts, Q/As, AMAs, and beyond, during which we've talked about all of those elements, and beyond.
Carvans? Check. It's one of the core systems to Volume 1.
Social interaction through crafting? Check. Boy, you should see what we have planned for crafting, not just in Volume I, but in Volume II and beyond.
Player-crafted cities? Check. (Volume II with the return of magic)
Boats with crews? Check. (Volume III with the launch of the Island Nations; this includes pirates)
The thing is...people aren't going to know these things unless they are over on our site, paying attention to what we're building. We haven't once gone into "marketing" phase; instead, we are "heads down, noses to the grindstone" and building things at our own pace.
We write blog posts, which places like MMORPG.com and Massively and Reddit occassionally pick up on. But out of those 400+ videos/posts/podcasts/etc., these outlets have MAYBE only touched on 20-30 of them over the past few years. And players aren't going to know about the things we are working on if they only pay attention to clickbait articles that barely scratch the surface of what we're working on.
And...we aren't there yet. We're fleshing out the combat side of things. Rich is on crafting presently (should be making a debut later this year), while Bobby grinds out combat/adventuring. We've got two programmers, so things go slowly.
We're hiring for generalist programmers So anyone who wants to help us speed things up, feel free to drop an application! http://stormhavenstudios.com/careers
What can I say? Great minds think alike. No need to thank me of course, its all in a days work
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Forced grouping says it all, it isn't fun or happens organically, you are simply forced to do it. Most people tend to avoid that which they are being pushed into doing. All it is right now is dungeons and world bosses, why else would you group? Its a combat and loot thing.
How about social interaction through crafting, making it a fun and essential role. How about town and city building/communities which pay off through marketplaces, crafting stations etc. How about travelling with caravans or on a boat run by an actual crew? How about exploring parties, roaming musicians, a theatre group, a burglars den?
Hoe about making it FUN? How about stop making it about COMBAT and start making it about COMMUNITY?
Forced grouping means you have failed to make your game fun so players would do it naturally because they want to...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Best post on the topic I’ve seen in awhile. @Renfail, I’ve been waiting for you comment on it.
Poetry slams and dances in Project Gorgon are a lot like this. Players offer poetry which the community rates - most of it is awful, but some is great and often witty comment on the event at hand. Those are the most fun.
The music has the entire area synchronizing their dancing skills as specific moves and skills are called out and requested.
Of course it's a total lagfest because Unity is a horrible engine for MMOs and the character models desperately need replaced, the rest of what is there is exactly the kind of community building you want to create here - natural relationships where people interact meaningfully with the game systems and each other as a result of employing those game systems moment by moment.
It would be even more interesting if an audience could 'rate' the 'performances' to give a precise value of the resulting 'product'. Then you could have a virtual 'Simon Cowell' or other judges and an actual RPing contest -- the dance off or singing competition. All of these televised talent shows can provide ideas for our MMORPGs.
All it would need is a system to allow 'judges' to vote, and a mechanism to tabulate the votes. Should be embarrassingly easy to design and implement.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
What I have seen is players going into group encounters assuming that everyone they don't personally know sucks. And, just as soon as someone makes a mistake, they feel their assumption is validated and they want to start kicking people out or quit. Few people have patience anymore.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
What I have seen is players going into group encounters assuming that everyone they don't personally know sucks. And, just as soon as someone makes a mistake, they feel their assumption is validated and they want to start kicking people out or quit. Few people have patience anymore.
This would be me. At this point I "project" or mind read far too much into what random strangers might be like, rather than how they likely will really behave.
So over the years a few bad experiences has me immediately assuming the worst, which isn't fair as I regularly reach out to and game with strangers in EVE with no problem.
Many would be puzzled by this, as they "believe" what they've heard about its toxic community, yet I know from years of experience where the reality lies.
Projecting once again, I believe games designed around player dependency have a greater chance of fostering a game community that I would enjoy, hence I keep watch on this title.
Besides, in 4 or 5 years when this and some other MMOs finally launch and get to a plus 1 state there's a good chance I'll be retired and will have plenty of time to group up and game.
Of course, there is a much lesser but ever increasing chance of not living long enough to play....but I'll cross that bridge if I come to it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMO grouping is only like tabletop grouping if you happen to be lucky enough to have a group of friends who like the same things you like and have a schedule flexible enough that you can all get together to do what you want to do when you want to do it.
Try going to a street corner and getting some random strangers to come to your house and play D&D with you. How long do you think it would take you before you say "screw that mess, I think I'll just play solitaire."
It really isn't too hard to figure out why modern games cater to solo players more and more. It's because those tight groups of friends playing together are not the norm, they are the exception.
Your experience and my experience are the complete opposites. I've never once had a hard time finding people to play board games, tabletop games, or MMORPGs with.
First and foremost, you don't go up to the random stranger on the street corner, who may or may not have an interest in tabletop. You ask strangers in an environment where everyone is already primed and ready for tabletop, like an online forum, or a game shop, or a convention, or a conference, etc.
It's a primed audience, and they are already halfway there, because they at least have an interest in the same thing as you.
Honestly, finding people to play games with isn't rocket science. You go to the places where gamers congregate, whether that's in-game, Reddit, forums, Discord, social media, and beyond.
You be friendly, you reach out, you don't assume the worst of everyone (even though, yes, there are a lot of dirtbags out there), and you make friends.
EVERYONE started off as strangers.
Ren, you make the same mistake many of us do, thinking your personal experience is anything near "typical."
You are the guy who never has issue finding or even forming a group, you shrug asshattery as your regular circle is there for you. Also, you seem like a pretty nice guy.
You also don't appear to be married with children, trust me, that changes one's options tremendously.
You have no idea how many "husbanding" points one has to accumulate in order to avoid going out on Saturday night so they can "raid."
In fact, if we're talking about leaving home to go physically meet others, it's actually impossible to build up that many points in a single lifetime.
Don't say bring the wife with....mine is a fundamentalist Christian, she still thinks half of the games I enjoy are sendng me to hell, or at least will see me "left behind" come judgement day.
Don't get me wrong, she loves board games, back in the day (geez, like in the early 80s) she was my regular partner in Axis and Allies. (Of course we never could play Axis, only Allies.)
She really isn't very good at gaming, but in those days we were playing with friends who would kindly laugh at her mistakes, even when I was being my usu al raging arse which happens more than I care to admit.
So yeah, the tabletop experience never happened for me, just something I've read about, like the Civil War.
I realize you aren't making your game with players handicapped as I am.
But I think many of the objections that are raised are really just people trying to get some info to see if just maybe, theres a way they will be able to enjoy this game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMO grouping is only like tabletop grouping if you happen to be lucky enough to have a group of friends who like the same things you like and have a schedule flexible enough that you can all get together to do what you want to do when you want to do it.
Try going to a street corner and getting some random strangers to come to your house and play D&D with you. How long do you think it would take you before you say "screw that mess, I think I'll just play solitaire."
It really isn't too hard to figure out why modern games cater to solo players more and more. It's because those tight groups of friends playing together are not the norm, they are the exception.
Your experience and my experience are the complete opposites. I've never once had a hard time finding people to play board games, tabletop games, or MMORPGs with.
First and foremost, you don't go up to the random stranger on the street corner, who may or may not have an interest in tabletop. You ask strangers in an environment where everyone is already primed and ready for tabletop, like an online forum, or a game shop, or a convention, or a conference, etc.
It's a primed audience, and they are already halfway there, because they at least have an interest in the same thing as you.
Honestly, finding people to play games with isn't rocket science. You go to the places where gamers congregate, whether that's in-game, Reddit, forums, Discord, social media, and beyond.
You be friendly, you reach out, you don't assume the worst of everyone (even though, yes, there are a lot of dirtbags out there), and you make friends.
EVERYONE started off as strangers.
Ren, you make the same mistake many of us do, thinking your personal experience is anything near "typical."
You are the guy who never has issue finding or even forming a group, you shrug asshattery as your regular circle is there for you. Also, you seem like a pretty nice guy.
You also don't appear to be married with children, trust me, that changes one's options tremendously.
You have no idea how many "husbanding" points one has to accumulate in order to avoid going out on Saturday night so they can "raid."
In fact, if we're talking about leaving home to go physically meet others, it's actually impossible to build up that many points in a single lifetime.
Don't say bring the wife with....mine is a fundamentalist Christian, she still thinks half of the games I enjoy are sendng me to hell, or at least will see me "left behind" come judgement day.
Don't get me wrong, she loves board games, back in the day (geez, like in the early 80s) she was my regular partner in Axis and Allies. (Of course we never could play Axis, only Allies.)
She really isn't very good at gaming, but in those days we were playing with friends who would kindly laugh at her mistakes, even when I was being my usu al raging arse which happens more than I care to admit.
So yeah, the tabletop experience never happened for me, just something I've read about, like the Civil War.
I realize you aren't making your game with players handicapped as I am.
But I think many of the objections that are raised are really just people trying to get some info to see if just maybe, theres a way they will be able to enjoy this game.
I think you are not giving forced grouping a chance, my experience of PuG groups has been mixed but they got the job done in games were players had a soloing mentality.
If players are in a game where they have to group, it will start to come naturally, it knocks the rough edges of those unused to grouping. Yes it goes against the tide, but I don't think the indie games trying this are expecting WoW levels for a playerbase.
It also raises the question of why are players not in guilds? If you are in a guild the whole problem of grouping is reduced and why would you not join a guild, what are you gaining by not being in one?
Some posters have mentioned there are better ways of engendering social interaction between players, there certainly are. But I don't think you have forced grouping first and foremost for that, you have for the great feel of grouping gameplay.
But some of us may need to work on those "husband points" and some extra praying to make sure we don't go straight to hell. Such is a gamers life.
MMO grouping is only like tabletop grouping if you happen to be lucky enough to have a group of friends who like the same things you like and have a schedule flexible enough that you can all get together to do what you want to do when you want to do it.
Try going to a street corner and getting some random strangers to come to your house and play D&D with you. How long do you think it would take you before you say "screw that mess, I think I'll just play solitaire."
It really isn't too hard to figure out why modern games cater to solo players more and more. It's because those tight groups of friends playing together are not the norm, they are the exception.
Your experience and my experience are the complete opposites. I've never once had a hard time finding people to play board games, tabletop games, or MMORPGs with.
First and foremost, you don't go up to the random stranger on the street corner, who may or may not have an interest in tabletop. You ask strangers in an environment where everyone is already primed and ready for tabletop, like an online forum, or a game shop, or a convention, or a conference, etc.
It's a primed audience, and they are already halfway there, because they at least have an interest in the same thing as you.
Honestly, finding people to play games with isn't rocket science. You go to the places where gamers congregate, whether that's in-game, Reddit, forums, Discord, social media, and beyond.
You be friendly, you reach out, you don't assume the worst of everyone (even though, yes, there are a lot of dirtbags out there), and you make friends.
EVERYONE started off as strangers.
Ren, you make the same mistake many of us do, thinking your personal experience is anything near "typical."
You are the guy who never has issue finding or even forming a group, you shrug asshattery as your regular circle is there for you. Also, you seem like a pretty nice guy.
You also don't appear to be married with children, trust me, that changes one's options tremendously.
You have no idea how many "husbanding" points one has to accumulate in order to avoid going out on Saturday night so they can "raid."
In fact, if we're talking about leaving home to go physically meet others, it's actually impossible to build up that many points in a single lifetime.
Don't say bring the wife with....mine is a fundamentalist Christian, she still thinks half of the games I enjoy are sendng me to hell, or at least will see me "left behind" come judgement day.
Don't get me wrong, she loves board games, back in the day (geez, like in the early 80s) she was my regular partner in Axis and Allies. (Of course we never could play Axis, only Allies.)
She really isn't very good at gaming, but in those days we were playing with friends who would kindly laugh at her mistakes, even when I was being my usu al raging arse which happens more than I care to admit.
So yeah, the tabletop experience never happened for me, just something I've read about, like the Civil War.
I realize you aren't making your game with players handicapped as I am.
But I think many of the objections that are raised are really just people trying to get some info to see if just maybe, theres a way they will be able to enjoy this game.
I think you are not giving forced grouping a chance, my experience of PuG groups has been mixed but they got the job done in games were players had a soloing mentality.
If players are in a game where they have to group, it will start to come naturally, it knocks the rough edges of those unused to grouping. Yes it goes against the tide, but I don't think the indie games trying this are expecting WoW levels for a playerbase.
It also raises the question of why are players not in guilds? If you are in a guild the whole problem of grouping is reduced and why would you not join a guild, what are you gaining by not being in one?
Some posters have mentioned there are better ways of engendering social interaction between players, there certainly are. But I don't think you have forced grouping first and foremost for that, you have for the great feel of grouping gameplay.
But some of us may need to work on those "husband points" and some extra praying to make sure we don't go straight to hell. Such is a gamers life.
I decided a while back that I couldn't put up with a woman who couldn't put up with my favorite hobby. So, I got myself a bookworm and tada! She is A-Okay with my spending hours gaming if it means she can spend hours reading.
MMO grouping is only like tabletop grouping if you happen to be lucky enough to have a group of friends who like the same things you like and have a schedule flexible enough that you can all get together to do what you want to do when you want to do it.
Try going to a street corner and getting some random strangers to come to your house and play D&D with you. How long do you think it would take you before you say "screw that mess, I think I'll just play solitaire."
It really isn't too hard to figure out why modern games cater to solo players more and more. It's because those tight groups of friends playing together are not the norm, they are the exception.
Your experience and my experience are the complete opposites. I've never once had a hard time finding people to play board games, tabletop games, or MMORPGs with.
First and foremost, you don't go up to the random stranger on the street corner, who may or may not have an interest in tabletop. You ask strangers in an environment where everyone is already primed and ready for tabletop, like an online forum, or a game shop, or a convention, or a conference, etc.
It's a primed audience, and they are already halfway there, because they at least have an interest in the same thing as you.
Honestly, finding people to play games with isn't rocket science. You go to the places where gamers congregate, whether that's in-game, Reddit, forums, Discord, social media, and beyond.
You be friendly, you reach out, you don't assume the worst of everyone (even though, yes, there are a lot of dirtbags out there), and you make friends.
EVERYONE started off as strangers.
Ren, you make the same mistake many of us do, thinking your personal experience is anything near "typical."
You are the guy who never has issue finding or even forming a group, you shrug asshattery as your regular circle is there for you. Also, you seem like a pretty nice guy.
You also don't appear to be married with children, trust me, that changes one's options tremendously.
You have no idea how many "husbanding" points one has to accumulate in order to avoid going out on Saturday night so they can "raid."
In fact, if we're talking about leaving home to go physically meet others, it's actually impossible to build up that many points in a single lifetime.
Don't say bring the wife with....mine is a fundamentalist Christian, she still thinks half of the games I enjoy are sendng me to hell, or at least will see me "left behind" come judgement day.
Don't get me wrong, she loves board games, back in the day (geez, like in the early 80s) she was my regular partner in Axis and Allies. (Of course we never could play Axis, only Allies.)
She really isn't very good at gaming, but in those days we were playing with friends who would kindly laugh at her mistakes, even when I was being my usu al raging arse which happens more than I care to admit.
So yeah, the tabletop experience never happened for me, just something I've read about, like the Civil War.
I realize you aren't making your game with players handicapped as I am.
But I think many of the objections that are raised are really just people trying to get some info to see if just maybe, theres a way they will be able to enjoy this game.
I think you are not giving forced grouping a chance, my experience of PuG groups has been mixed but they got the job done in games were players had a soloing mentality.
If players are in a game where they have to group, it will start to come naturally, it knocks the rough edges of those unused to grouping. Yes it goes against the tide, but I don't think the indie games trying this are expecting WoW levels for a playerbase.
It also raises the question of why are players not in guilds? If you are in a guild the whole problem of grouping is reduced and why would you not join a guild, what are you gaining by not being in one?
Some posters have mentioned there are better ways of engendering social interaction between players, there certainly are. But I don't think you have forced grouping first and foremost for that, you have for the great feel of grouping gameplay.
But some of us may need to work on those "husband points" and some extra praying to make sure we don't go straight to hell. Such is a gamers life.
I decided a while back that I couldn't put up with a woman who couldn't put up with my favorite hobby. So, I got myself a bookworm and tada! She is A-Okay with my spending hours gaming if it means she can spend hours reading.
My wife is not a gamer, but we share a ton of passions outside of gaming. We ran our travel brand together for 8 years, we both love photography and travel, cooking, food, and wine. We also enjoy the Netflix/Hulu/Amazon craze.
She also enjoys painting, drawing, and sewing/embroidery, which means there's very rarely any crossover when I'm gaming or she's painting, for example, as we're both pursuing our creative outlets in our spare time.
Big thing is finding a partner in life who SUPPORTS what you want to do, rather than tries to change you into something else.
We married these non-gamers even though we knew they either just tolerated, thought we'd grow out of or put up with our hobby 'then' in hopes of changing us later (worst case). If we're lucky they don't mind hanging around us while we play, just being near us being good enough, for short periods (good case). If we hit the lottery of life our non-gaming significant others are willing to start gaming as they see our love for it and want to spend time with us doing what we love (best case). And then of course if we were lucky enough to find love with another gamer from the beginning, all of that is moot, so just shut up already and enjoy life ya big jerks!
My wife has no hobbies really, besides doing stuff with our 3 young boys (10, 8 & 3) , or stuff around the house. We try watching shows together when one of us doesn't end up falling asleep... ha But when everyone else is in bed, I FINALLY get my "me" time for gaming.
Sometimes I sit down at the PC and fall asleep right away. Sometimes I fall asleep after logging in, with my friends wondering why I'm just standing there staring at a wall, but the most entertaining times are when I'm on cruise control and I run through groups of mobs leading everyone to die usually. Every once in a while I'm awake for a few hours of EPIC gaming, while I remember that used to mean 12-16 hours of play time in my younger days.
I say all of that, because I'm a sucky Group partner. My kidless & younger friends try to keep me included, but none of us know which Gutlard shows up that night until that moment.... ha
I don't see that changing any time soon until the 3 year old gets older, and then my maniacal master plan, which has been in the works for years now, will finally pay off and the boys and I will be grouping together during better hours! The wifey will hate it, but will bite her tongue because she'll know we're all spending quality time together.
It's already started to happen. She's actually been suggesting we play games together when the boys say how bored they are. I picked up a few extra keys, and made new Steam accounts during this last sale. I've introduced Minecraft years ago, and we've been playing Fortnite together also.
They've tried to get me into Roblox, which I hate the Pay-to-Win nature of those games, so I refuse and try to explain to them the evil nature of Pay-to-Win, and how the 'Lards stay away from that at all costs.
So for the foreseeable future Group play is out, but I hope I can get back to it years from now. I just tell my friends to get to it, and I'll catch up when I can, but I everyone should be able to play how they prefer!
MMO grouping is only like tabletop grouping if you happen to be lucky enough to have a group of friends who like the same things you like and have a schedule flexible enough that you can all get together to do what you want to do when you want to do it.
Try going to a street corner and getting some random strangers to come to your house and play D&D with you. How long do you think it would take you before you say "screw that mess, I think I'll just play solitaire."
It really isn't too hard to figure out why modern games cater to solo players more and more. It's because those tight groups of friends playing together are not the norm, they are the exception.
Your experience and my experience are the complete opposites. I've never once had a hard time finding people to play board games, tabletop games, or MMORPGs with.
First and foremost, you don't go up to the random stranger on the street corner, who may or may not have an interest in tabletop. You ask strangers in an environment where everyone is already primed and ready for tabletop, like an online forum, or a game shop, or a convention, or a conference, etc.
It's a primed audience, and they are already halfway there, because they at least have an interest in the same thing as you.
Honestly, finding people to play games with isn't rocket science. You go to the places where gamers congregate, whether that's in-game, Reddit, forums, Discord, social media, and beyond.
You be friendly, you reach out, you don't assume the worst of everyone (even though, yes, there are a lot of dirtbags out there), and you make friends.
EVERYONE started off as strangers.
Ren, you make the same mistake many of us do, thinking your personal experience is anything near "typical."
You are the guy who never has issue finding or even forming a group, you shrug asshattery as your regular circle is there for you. Also, you seem like a pretty nice guy.
You also don't appear to be married with children, trust me, that changes one's options tremendously.
You have no idea how many "husbanding" points one has to accumulate in order to avoid going out on Saturday night so they can "raid."
In fact, if we're talking about leaving home to go physically meet others, it's actually impossible to build up that many points in a single lifetime.
Don't say bring the wife with....mine is a fundamentalist Christian, she still thinks half of the games I enjoy are sendng me to hell, or at least will see me "left behind" come judgement day.
Don't get me wrong, she loves board games, back in the day (geez, like in the early 80s) she was my regular partner in Axis and Allies. (Of course we never could play Axis, only Allies.)
She really isn't very good at gaming, but in those days we were playing with friends who would kindly laugh at her mistakes, even when I was being my usu al raging arse which happens more than I care to admit.
So yeah, the tabletop experience never happened for me, just something I've read about, like the Civil War.
I realize you aren't making your game with players handicapped as I am.
But I think many of the objections that are raised are really just people trying to get some info to see if just maybe, theres a way they will be able to enjoy this game.
I think you are not giving forced grouping a chance, my experience of PuG groups has been mixed but they got the job done in games were players had a soloing mentality.
If players are in a game where they have to group, it will start to come naturally, it knocks the rough edges of those unused to grouping. Yes it goes against the tide, but I don't think the indie games trying this are expecting WoW levels for a playerbase.
It also raises the question of why are players not in guilds? If you are in a guild the whole problem of grouping is reduced and why would you not join a guild, what are you gaining by not being in one?
Some posters have mentioned there are better ways of engendering social interaction between players, there certainly are. But I don't think you have forced grouping first and foremost for that, you have for the great feel of grouping gameplay.
But some of us may need to work on those "husband points" and some extra praying to make sure we don't go straight to hell. Such is a gamers life.
I decided a while back that I couldn't put up with a woman who couldn't put up with my favorite hobby. So, I got myself a bookworm and tada! She is A-Okay with my spending hours gaming if it means she can spend hours reading.
My wife is not a gamer, but we share a ton of passions outside of gaming. We ran our travel brand together for 8 years, we both love photography and travel, cooking, food, and wine. We also enjoy the Netflix/Hulu/Amazon craze.
She also enjoys painting, drawing, and sewing/embroidery, which means there's very rarely any crossover when I'm gaming or she's painting, for example, as we're both pursuing our creative outlets in our spare time.
Big thing is finding a partner in life who SUPPORTS what you want to do, rather than tries to change you into something else.
If only you had been around 35 years ago with that advice. My wife's biggest hobby has always been.....me.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
MMO grouping is only like tabletop grouping if you happen to be lucky enough to have a group of friends who like the same things you like and have a schedule flexible enough that you can all get together to do what you want to do when you want to do it.
Try going to a street corner and getting some random strangers to come to your house and play D&D with you. How long do you think it would take you before you say "screw that mess, I think I'll just play solitaire."
It really isn't too hard to figure out why modern games cater to solo players more and more. It's because those tight groups of friends playing together are not the norm, they are the exception.
Your experience and my experience are the complete opposites. I've never once had a hard time finding people to play board games, tabletop games, or MMORPGs with.
First and foremost, you don't go up to the random stranger on the street corner, who may or may not have an interest in tabletop. You ask strangers in an environment where everyone is already primed and ready for tabletop, like an online forum, or a game shop, or a convention, or a conference, etc.
It's a primed audience, and they are already halfway there, because they at least have an interest in the same thing as you.
Honestly, finding people to play games with isn't rocket science. You go to the places where gamers congregate, whether that's in-game, Reddit, forums, Discord, social media, and beyond.
You be friendly, you reach out, you don't assume the worst of everyone (even though, yes, there are a lot of dirtbags out there), and you make friends.
EVERYONE started off as strangers.
Ren, you make the same mistake many of us do, thinking your personal experience is anything near "typical."
You are the guy who never has issue finding or even forming a group, you shrug asshattery as your regular circle is there for you. Also, you seem like a pretty nice guy.
You also don't appear to be married with children, trust me, that changes one's options tremendously.
You have no idea how many "husbanding" points one has to accumulate in order to avoid going out on Saturday night so they can "raid."
In fact, if we're talking about leaving home to go physically meet others, it's actually impossible to build up that many points in a single lifetime.
Don't say bring the wife with....mine is a fundamentalist Christian, she still thinks half of the games I enjoy are sendng me to hell, or at least will see me "left behind" come judgement day.
Don't get me wrong, she loves board games, back in the day (geez, like in the early 80s) she was my regular partner in Axis and Allies. (Of course we never could play Axis, only Allies.)
She really isn't very good at gaming, but in those days we were playing with friends who would kindly laugh at her mistakes, even when I was being my usu al raging arse which happens more than I care to admit.
So yeah, the tabletop experience never happened for me, just something I've read about, like the Civil War.
I realize you aren't making your game with players handicapped as I am.
But I think many of the objections that are raised are really just people trying to get some info to see if just maybe, theres a way they will be able to enjoy this game.
I think you are not giving forced grouping a chance, my experience of PuG groups has been mixed but they got the job done in games were players had a soloing mentality.
If players are in a game where they have to group, it will start to come naturally, it knocks the rough edges of those unused to grouping. Yes it goes against the tide, but I don't think the indie games trying this are expecting WoW levels for a playerbase.
It also raises the question of why are players not in guilds? If you are in a guild the whole problem of grouping is reduced and why would you not join a guild, what are you gaining by not being in one?
Some posters have mentioned there are better ways of engendering social interaction between players, there certainly are. But I don't think you have forced grouping first and foremost for that, you have for the great feel of grouping gameplay.
But some of us may need to work on those "husband points" and some extra praying to make sure we don't go straight to hell. Such is a gamers life.
I decided a while back that I couldn't put up with a woman who couldn't put up with my favorite hobby. So, I got myself a bookworm and tada! She is A-Okay with my spending hours gaming if it means she can spend hours reading.
My wife is not a gamer, but we share a ton of passions outside of gaming. We ran our travel brand together for 8 years, we both love photography and travel, cooking, food, and wine. We also enjoy the Netflix/Hulu/Amazon craze.
She also enjoys painting, drawing, and sewing/embroidery, which means there's very rarely any crossover when I'm gaming or she's painting, for example, as we're both pursuing our creative outlets in our spare time.
Big thing is finding a partner in life who SUPPORTS what you want to do, rather than tries to change you into something else.
If only you had been around 35 years ago with that advice. My wife's biggest hobby has always been.....me.
I was going to post in reply to Renfail "Chance would be a fine thing", but essentially you beat me too it.
Pretty much these days players fall into "one man army" or "street gang" mentality. I think the lack of pvp will teach players how to work together to accomplish things. For some thats relearn for others that remember.
For a table top or board game of any kind, there is almost never the GM and just one player. And that one player doesn’t have the ability to do everything. Even in fantasy books like Conan etc he has help in achieving his goals. I am looking for a game like that because I don’t need to brag or teabag someone in pvp or trash talk to get my jollies. For me a good MMO requires cooperation and is difficult enough to punish those who are incapable of functioning within a group. Game mechanics also make the difference as immersion is important. It’s the social aspect however that keeps me coming back. Getting to know those in my guild and letting them get to know me. Adventuring and questing and achieving goals, not just my own but my comrades goals as well. Rejoicing with them in their successes and grumbling with them in our defeats. ESO is fun...for a while but always left me feeling empty. What is the point of playing a single
Player game online? I don’t get it and so I keep going back to EMUs ( avoiding the cash shops and gold pharmers) to spend my game time. If I can simply dig into my bank account or do everything in single player mode and win I don’t want to play. Games like mass effect and DAge are the same way too in giving your character enough help and social interactions to make the games fun and interesting and difficult. It is this process that keeps me coming back for more and probably always will.
Comments
That has not been the case for a very long time as games were developed more and more for mass markets attempting (somewhat successfully) to attract non-traditional audiences.
Now I know you're developing a niche game without trying to bring in random strangers with other interests into it. As such your approach to forced grouping might work if you're successful in attracting a community that will behave as we all used to behave in MMOs 20 years ago.
And I sincerely wish you all the luck in the world making your game and having that system work. I'll watch from the sidelines with interest to see how it all works out.
As to how this concept would work if applied to mainstream AAA MMOs, I'll remain very skeptical that there is any practical universal application in an environment with today's much more diverse crowds.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Carvans? Check. It's one of the core systems to Volume 1.
Social interaction through crafting? Check. Boy, you should see what we have planned for crafting, not just in Volume I, but in Volume II and beyond.
Player-crafted cities? Check. (Volume II with the return of magic)
Boats with crews? Check. (Volume III with the launch of the Island Nations; this includes pirates)
The thing is...people aren't going to know these things unless they are over on our site, paying attention to what we're building. We haven't once gone into "marketing" phase; instead, we are "heads down, noses to the grindstone" and building things at our own pace.
We write blog posts, which places like MMORPG.com and Massively and Reddit occassionally pick up on. But out of those 400+ videos/posts/podcasts/etc., these outlets have MAYBE only touched on 20-30 of them over the past few years. And players aren't going to know about the things we are working on if they only pay attention to clickbait articles that barely scratch the surface of what we're working on.
And...we aren't there yet. We're fleshing out the combat side of things. Rich is on crafting presently (should be making a debut later this year), while Bobby grinds out combat/adventuring. We've got two programmers, so things go slowly.
We're hiring for generalist programmers
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
All it would need is a system to allow 'judges' to vote, and a mechanism to tabulate the votes. Should be embarrassingly easy to design and implement.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
So over the years a few bad experiences has me immediately assuming the worst, which isn't fair as I regularly reach out to and game with strangers in EVE with no problem.
Many would be puzzled by this, as they "believe" what they've heard about its toxic community, yet I know from years of experience where the reality lies.
Projecting once again, I believe games designed around player dependency have a greater chance of fostering a game community that I would enjoy, hence I keep watch on this title.
Besides, in 4 or 5 years when this and some other MMOs finally launch and get to a plus 1 state there's a good chance I'll be retired and will have plenty of time to group up and game.
Of course, there is a much lesser but ever increasing chance of not living long enough to play....but I'll cross that bridge if I come to it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You are the guy who never has issue finding or even forming a group, you shrug asshattery as your regular circle is there for you. Also, you seem like a pretty nice guy.
You also don't appear to be married with children, trust me, that changes one's options tremendously.
You have no idea how many "husbanding" points one has to accumulate in order to avoid going out on Saturday night so they can "raid."
In fact, if we're talking about leaving home to go physically meet others, it's actually impossible to build up that many points in a single lifetime.
Don't say bring the wife with....mine is a fundamentalist Christian, she still thinks half of the games I enjoy are sendng me to hell, or at least will see me "left behind" come judgement day.
Don't get me wrong, she loves board games, back in the day (geez, like in the early 80s) she was my regular partner in Axis and Allies. (Of course we never could play Axis, only Allies.)
She really isn't very good at gaming, but in those days we were playing with friends who would kindly laugh at her mistakes, even when I was being my usu al raging arse which happens more than I care to admit.
So yeah, the tabletop experience never happened for me, just something I've read about, like the Civil War.
I realize you aren't making your game with players handicapped as I am.
But I think many of the objections that are raised are really just people trying to get some info to see if just maybe, theres a way they will be able to enjoy this game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If players are in a game where they have to group, it will start to come naturally, it knocks the rough edges of those unused to grouping. Yes it goes against the tide, but I don't think the indie games trying this are expecting WoW levels for a playerbase.
It also raises the question of why are players not in guilds? If you are in a guild the whole problem of grouping is reduced and why would you not join a guild, what are you gaining by not being in one?
Some posters have mentioned there are better ways of engendering social interaction between players, there certainly are. But I don't think you have forced grouping first and foremost for that, you have for the great feel of grouping gameplay.
But some of us may need to work on those "husband points" and some extra praying to make sure we don't go straight to hell. Such is a gamers life.
She also enjoys painting, drawing, and sewing/embroidery, which means there's very rarely any crossover when I'm gaming or she's painting, for example, as we're both pursuing our creative outlets in our spare time.
Big thing is finding a partner in life who SUPPORTS what you want to do, rather than tries to change you into something else.
My wife has no hobbies really, besides doing stuff with our 3 young boys (10, 8 & 3) , or stuff around the house. We try watching shows together when one of us doesn't end up falling asleep... ha But when everyone else is in bed, I FINALLY get my "me" time for gaming.
Sometimes I sit down at the PC and fall asleep right away. Sometimes I fall asleep after logging in, with my friends wondering why I'm just standing there staring at a wall, but the most entertaining times are when I'm on cruise control and I run through groups of mobs leading everyone to die usually. Every once in a while I'm awake for a few hours of EPIC gaming, while I remember that used to mean 12-16 hours of play time in my younger days.
I say all of that, because I'm a sucky Group partner. My kidless & younger friends try to keep me included, but none of us know which Gutlard shows up that night until that moment.... ha
I don't see that changing any time soon until the 3 year old gets older, and then my maniacal master plan, which has been in the works for years now, will finally pay off and the boys and I will be grouping together during better hours! The wifey will hate it, but will bite her tongue because she'll know we're all spending quality time together.
It's already started to happen. She's actually been suggesting we play games together when the boys say how bored they are. I picked up a few extra keys, and made new Steam accounts during this last sale. I've introduced Minecraft years ago, and we've been playing Fortnite together also.
They've tried to get me into Roblox, which I hate the Pay-to-Win nature of those games, so I refuse and try to explain to them the evil nature of Pay-to-Win, and how the 'Lards stay away from that at all costs.
So for the foreseeable future Group play is out, but I hope I can get back to it years from now. I just tell my friends to get to it, and I'll catch up when I can, but I everyone should be able to play how they prefer!
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
Player game online? I don’t get it and so I keep going back to EMUs ( avoiding the cash shops and gold pharmers) to spend my game time. If I can simply dig into my bank account or do everything in single player mode and win I don’t want to play. Games like mass effect and DAge are the same way too in giving your character enough help and social interactions to make the games fun and interesting and difficult. It is this process that keeps me coming back for more and probably always will.
HBS-HELLBOUNDSOLDIERS
http://hellboundsoldiers.org/portal/forum.php
https://discord.gg/brgbpvY