Look at FFXIV. It's a newer version of this old model and it was done wrong at 1st and suffered. But SE redesigned the game from the ground up. And now as a newer model design, it was a huge success and remains so. Wildstar, also a new design did not meet with similar success.
What is my point in this?
A well designed and implemented game will attract and retain players. A poorly designed game may or may not attract players, but it cannot retain them for long. I don't think it matters what your design model is. If your game sucks, you will not have the player base you want. But a good game will endure.
I don't care that Pantheon is expected to be the spiritual successor to EQ1. It still has to be a good game in its own right. Something that seems to be missing from far too many MMORPGs that have been released over the years.
^^ Exactly this. Even if Pantheon starts small, if it can retain players (with good gameplay, content and quality) then it will grow.
Perhaps, but can you tell me the names of all MMORPGS released in the past 13 years which have succeeded in such a manner, and did so on a shoestring budget to boot?
The odds are long against them.
I can't,
because there simply haven't been any, yet*... probably the closest thing to
Pantheon (in terms of budget, how 'known' it is, and being an online
multiplayer RPG) to launch (or is it still in beta?) in recent years is SotA,
and by most accounts it's 2 planks short of a dumpster fire, but the interest
was there, just not the quality.
A better
comparison is to look at which MMOs (e.g. FFXIV, ESO, GW2), 'old school' RPGs
(e.g. Divinity, Pillars) and 'low budget' games (<insert indie games
here>) have done well in recent years and what they all have in common, and
that is (generally) good gameplay, enough content for what they are, being a
quality product, being at least somewhat known, and not releasing into an
overcrowded market.
Now of
course none of this means that Pantheon will succeed, but (from what I have
seen so far) there aren't any 'red flags' that it won't.
* It will
be interesting to see how this 'next generation' of 'old school' MMOs do overall,
and once we see the launch of the likes of WoW Classic, Pantheon, CU, Ashes,
etc. we will have a much better idea of how feasible their design philosophies
are in the current market... though ironically, with so many of them launching
(or at least going into beta) over the next few years I wouldn't be surprised
to see some of them 'fail' due to (if nothing else) market saturation.
Well if they have "hook" that works then they'll success otherwise they may wind up being another niche game for the long term. That is saying they may have a huge influx in the begining , but then it might taper off after several months or so.
I do remember the opening of Vanguard. The excitement for an old school mmo was there. Masses of people questing in every starter zone. It only failed because of buggy code, and not because it was old school. If pantheon can get as many people on opening day as Vanguard did it will be fine.
Nice thoughts but gamers have swarmed the beginning every new MMO since the first generation, yet post WOW the numbers for most quickly tailed off for.....reasons.
No way to know if better production standards really would have resulted in any great success or not, all we know is what did happen.
the one thing i can think of is that pre-WoW there were like 5 well known mmos to choose from while post-WoW there were literally hundreds, and now even more.
Well if they have "hook" that works then they'll success otherwise they may wind up being another niche game for the long term. That is saying they may have a huge influx in the begining , but then it might taper off after several months or so.
I think they will have a huge influx in the beginning. People are truly starving for an mmorpg. I seriously think many that have no intentions will at least give it a go for lack of mmo's…… I seriously think many will get hooked.
My definition of any type of game is a challenge ! ...…..This means you may loose. I would say this holds true for hundreds of years, then games like BDO comes along and changes the rules ?
It's like this: -I don't want to play a game like Pantheon. -well, a lot of people are playing it. -I've seen a post last night where this guy found an awesome group and had a lot of fun. -Well I'm sick of ESO...What the hell, I'll try it. (4 hours later) -I can't seem to get anything done, maybe I'll ask that guy for some help. -Hay, we did good, this is kind of fun, and he asked me to join his Guild. -My friend wants me to play again tomorrow, Ya know what?... I love it.
People tend to think it's an absolute when others say they will never play... I say the opposite.
Well if they have "hook" that works then they'll success otherwise they may wind up being another niche game for the long term. That is saying they may have a huge influx in the begining , but then it might taper off after several months or so.
I think they will have a huge influx in the beginning. People are truly starving for an mmorpg. I seriously think many that have no intentions will at least give it a go for lack of mmo's…… I seriously think many will get hooked.
My definition of any type of game is a challenge ! ...…..This means you may loose. I would say this holds true for hundreds of years, then games like BDO comes along and changes the rules ?
It's like this: -I don't want to play a game like Pantheon. -well, a lot of people are playing it. -I've seen a post last night where this guy found an awesome group and had a lot of fun. -Well I'm sick of ESO...What the hell, I'll try it. (4 hours later) -I can't seem to get anything done, maybe I'll ask that guy for some help. -Hay, we did good, this is kind of fun, and he asked me to join his Guild. -My friend wants me to play again tomorrow, Ya know what?... I love it.
People tend to think it's an absolute when others say they will never play... I say the opposite.
Your sense of imagination is.....charming to say the least.
I'm far too jaded to believe such will happen, at least not to me.
I'm not looking to make friends in a game these days..looks like @nariusseldon finally won me over.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As all artists will tell you, sometimes the best art comes from the chaos of those random mistakes. Beauty often comes out of the flaws.
Whoa! I can't agree with this more.
I had a composition professor once ask me "do you ever take advantage of hitting a "wrong" note.
I've discovered such greatness while exploring the "what if's."
That unexpected thing that takes you out of your comfort zone, the thing you would never have thought of.
So true.
This is what came to mind when I read his post too. Live music jams are built on reacting to the unexpected. It's what can make playing impromptu music so incredible, at least with regards to personal satisfaction. Anyway, mistakes in art are just opportunities to explore something else.
It's like that planned sunny weekend gone camping that turns into truncal rain storms. The family finds their stuck in a broken down cabin instead.... Turns out to be the most memorable weekend they ever had in their life.
Got married last year. Were older, so we slapped together a super easy and cheap wedding, reception was in among customers at her daughter's restraint. Friends say it was the best wedding ever attended
As all artists will tell you, sometimes the best art comes from the chaos of those random mistakes. Beauty often comes out of the flaws.
Whoa! I can't agree with this more.
I had a composition professor once ask me "do you ever take advantage of hitting a "wrong" note.
I've discovered such greatness while exploring the "what if's."
That unexpected thing that takes you out of your comfort zone, the thing you would never have thought of.
So true.
This is what came to mind when I read his post too. Live music jams are built on reacting to the unexpected. It's what can make playing impromptu music so incredible, at least with regards to personal satisfaction. Anyway, mistakes in art are just opportunities to explore something else.
It's like that planned sunny weekend gone camping that turns into truncal rain storms. The family finds their stuck in a broken down cabin instead.... Turns out to be the most memorable weekend they ever had in their life.
Got married last year. Were older, so we slapped together a super easy and cheap wedding, reception was in among customers at her daughter's restraint. Friends say it was the best wedding ever attended
Like things in real life, games are so much more fun when they are personal and filled with good company. The social aspect of MMORPG's has taken a huge hit thanks to the introduction of action combat and other aspects of fast paced gaming. There is no time to be social while you adventure and that is a huge detriment to the MMORPG experience. The significantly slower pace of older games is exactly what is needed to foster a much more robust and interactive social structure in MMORPG's, but few companies are willing go there anymore for reasons I cannot fathom. It is, after all, what caused the genre to explode into a money train in the first place.
When games like Warhammer Online and Rift came out with their dynamic events, I really thought the genre had a chance to really shine, but then they invented free to play and discovered the twitchy console crowd and everything changed for the worse for gamers like me and it would appear it has not exactly been healthy for the genre in the long term.
As all artists will tell you, sometimes the best art comes from the chaos of those random mistakes. Beauty often comes out of the flaws.
Whoa! I can't agree with this more.
I had a composition professor once ask me "do you ever take advantage of hitting a "wrong" note.
I've discovered such greatness while exploring the "what if's."
That unexpected thing that takes you out of your comfort zone, the thing you would never have thought of.
So true.
This is what came to mind when I read his post too. Live music jams are built on reacting to the unexpected. It's what can make playing impromptu music so incredible, at least with regards to personal satisfaction. Anyway, mistakes in art are just opportunities to explore something else.
It's like that planned sunny weekend gone camping that turns into truncal rain storms. The family finds their stuck in a broken down cabin instead.... Turns out to be the most memorable weekend they ever had in their life.
Got married last year. Were older, so we slapped together a super easy and cheap wedding, reception was in among customers at her daughter's restraint. Friends say it was the best wedding ever attended
Like things in real life, games are so much more fun when they are personal and filled with good company. The social aspect of MMORPG's has taken a huge hit thanks to the introduction of action combat and other aspects of fast paced gaming. There is no time to be social while you adventure and that is a huge detriment to the MMORPG experience. The significantly slower pace of older games is exactly what is needed to foster a much more robust and interactive social structure in MMORPG's, but few companies are willing go there anymore for reasons I cannot fathom. It is, after all, what caused the genre to explode into a money train in the first place.
When games like Warhammer Online and Rift came out with their dynamic events, I really thought the genre had a chance to really shine, but then they invented free to play and discovered the twitchy console crowd and everything changed for the worse for gamers like me and it would appear it has not exactly been healthy for the genre in the long term.
I think people are underestimating the number of people that want a more in-depth experience. Just because you may not like the style now, or never got a chance to experience it, does not invalidate it.
There needs to be some demand for it, for any company to take a dive in, to such a long process of creating such a game.
I remember playing Everquest from 1999 till about the time WoW came out; and the industry had a lot of buzz. WoW became so big, then people viewed it as the "standard" for mmorpg game design, because of its success, without realizing that there is success in creating a game with more depth and permanence.
I see a growing demand for a game like Pantheon, more so every day. I also so not believe that a game necessarily needs to have the huge subscription numbers, that WoW did, to be successful.
I am not going to pretend, that an in-depth experience appeals to the masses, but it does appeal to a larger audience, than many are willing to admit.
These aspects of Everquest and Pantheon that people claim they hate, or have grown out of; are apart of our human psychology. We want deeper connections with other human beings, rewards that are actual achievements and a world that feels alive for adventure and exploration.
Its all about putting the pieces together right, for some form of real success.
Its easier to just mindlessly zone out, to easily digestible modern mmorpgs, but for the select few that want a deeper experience, its worth it to make a game like Pantheon.
I think people are underestimating the number of people that want a more in-depth experience. Just because you may not like the style now, or never got a chance to experience it, does not invalidate it.
There needs to be some demand for it, for any company to take a dive in, to such a long process of creating such a game.
I remember playing Everquest from 1999 till about the time WoW came out; and the industry had a lot of buzz. WoW became so big, then people viewed it as the "standard" for mmorpg game design, because of its success, without realizing that there is success in creating a game with more depth and permanence.
I see a growing demand for a game like Pantheon, more so every day. I also so not believe that a game necessarily needs to have the huge subscription numbers, that WoW did, to be successful.
I am not going to pretend, that an in-depth experience appeals to the masses, but it does appeal to a larger audience, than many are willing to admit.
These aspects of Everquest and Pantheon that people claim they hate, or have grown out of; are apart of our human psychology. We want deeper connections with other human beings, rewards that are actual achievements and a world that feels alive for adventure and exploration.
Its all about putting the pieces together right, for some form of real success.
Its easier to just mindlessly zone out, to easily digestible modern mmorpgs, but for the select few that want a deeper experience, its worth it to make a game like Pantheon.
Richard Garriott also believes there are "millions" of Ultima fans out there who would flock to SotA if only they knew about it.
Yeah, right.
Faith is a wonderful thing. You are claiming to see a "growing demand" for a game like Pantheon, care to share some hard data to substantiate your beliefs?
If you were to make a similar claim about Star Citizen you would have solid evidence of such demand, Pantheon isn't exactly kicking arse and taking names when it comes to crowdfunding, nor showing any sort of innovation in game play which might indicate future success.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, we already know the verdict of the millions that DID have the chance to experience "first generation", lol
They roundly rejected it and demanded instant travel, no "downtime", cross-server group-finders, insta-port to dungeons and PVP battlegrounds you can just auto-queue for...
There's no reason I can think of why the "newer" generation wouldn't react exactly the same way... and demand a battle-royale mode as well !
I missed the 1st Gen of MMORPG's, and came in on WoTLK, so what 2.5 gen?
I can't speak to those experiences, but I can speak on how much I loved WoTLK over any WoW expacs that came after....ha
We appreciate new experiences more and have a deeper love of the things that we learned from I guess.
I plan on playing Pantheon with a group of friends, but if it's too hard for us to meet up in game I prbly won't stick around too long if we have to group up. I don't like grouping with strangers..... It took years to find the peeps who can put up with me for the group I do have.
Well, we already know the verdict of the millions that DID have the chance to experience "first generation", lol
They roundly rejected it and demanded instant travel, no "downtime", cross-server group-finders, insta-port to dungeons and PVP battlegrounds you can just auto-queue for...
There's no reason I can think of why the "newer" generation wouldn't react exactly the same way... and demand a battle-royale mode as well !
People seem to have the misguided concept that some new wave of players came in and just upturned and undid everything they loved.
The truth, however, is that the people who made all those changes to the genre were those old-school, "first gen" players who got sick of all those time-wasting and tedious mechanics.
It was the common players of games like EQ that built the "second generation". The evolution of MMOs didn't just happen to the dismay of the majority of the old-school players, but with their support. Obviously, the Pantheon forum is full of masochists who want to spend 5 minutes auto-attacking a trash mob and 30 minutes running to their corpse naked, but the majority spoke and moved on in droves. It was a mass migration, not an exodus of homeless refugees.
Well, we already know the verdict of the millions that DID have the chance to experience "first generation", lol
They roundly rejected it and demanded instant travel, no "downtime", cross-server group-finders, insta-port to dungeons and PVP battlegrounds you can just auto-queue for...
There's no reason I can think of why the "newer" generation wouldn't react exactly the same way... and demand a battle-royale mode as well !
People seem to have the misguided concept that some new wave of players came in and just upturned and undid everything they loved.
The truth, however, is that the people who made all those changes to the genre were those old-school, "first gen" players who got sick of all those time-wasting and tedious mechanics.
It was the common players of games like EQ that built the "second generation". The evolution of MMOs didn't just happen to the dismay of the majority of the old-school players, but with their support. Obviously, the Pantheon forum is full of masochists who want to spend 5 minutes auto-attacking a trash mob and 30 minutes running to their corpse naked, but the majority spoke and moved on in droves. It was a mass migration, not an exodus of homeless refugees.
Certain aspects of the older generation were just awful. It's not like they had a template to work from. Or a lot of competition. But good stuff got left with the bad. Unfortunately the anomaly of WoW convinced a ton of bean counters to try to replicate it, when it was a one time affair.
Personally, I avoided the first generation games: Watched my friends play them and felt the problems overrode the enjoyment. Kept my nose clean til CoH came out, and fell to grace there.
Not going to be particularly interested personally in old school games that deify the shortcomings of the past. Camping, ganking, greifing, forced idle time, poor character design, bad writing, etc But hey, if the devs can match their money needs with the fanbase support that they can get, then it's good.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Well, we already know the verdict of the millions that DID have the chance to experience "first generation", lol
They roundly rejected it and demanded instant travel, no "downtime", cross-server group-finders, insta-port to dungeons and PVP battlegrounds you can just auto-queue for...
There's no reason I can think of why the "newer" generation wouldn't react exactly the same way... and demand a battle-royale mode as well !
People seem to have the misguided concept that some new wave of players came in and just upturned and undid everything they loved.
The truth, however, is that the people who made all those changes to the genre were those old-school, "first gen" players who got sick of all those time-wasting and tedious mechanics.
It was the common players of games like EQ that built the "second generation". The evolution of MMOs didn't just happen to the dismay of the majority of the old-school players, but with their support. Obviously, the Pantheon forum is full of masochists who want to spend 5 minutes auto-attacking a trash mob and 30 minutes running to their corpse naked, but the majority spoke and moved on in droves. It was a mass migration, not an exodus of homeless refugees.
Well it more like elite raiders types instead the common players from EQ that built WOW. The first time I heard about WoW was in late 1999 or early 2000( when ever the Hate Plane came out). We had several people in our guild that claimed to be blizzard employees and they said that WoW was going to be EQ with everything that sucked taken out. Its reported that EQ had around 100,000 people playing it in 2000 and reached a peak of a bit over 500.000 in 2003 or so. A lot of the people that left EQ early on, played DAoC (not sure if its considered 1st generation or not). The other first generation games probably had even lower populations. So for WoW to get the millions that played it, a massive new wave of players did have to come in and they did change the future of MMORPGs. Most of them had never played any of the first generation games or even text based MUDs upon which at least EQ was based.
Its interesting to note that EQ is still going after 19 years and they still release expansions fairly often so they must be able to at least pay the bills with ever how many people play it now days. Perhaps Pantheon can do the same.
Well, we already know the verdict of the millions that DID have the chance to experience "first generation", lol
They roundly rejected it and demanded instant travel, no "downtime", cross-server group-finders, insta-port to dungeons and PVP battlegrounds you can just auto-queue for...
There's no reason I can think of why the "newer" generation wouldn't react exactly the same way... and demand a battle-royale mode as well !
People seem to have the misguided concept that some new wave of players came in and just upturned and undid everything they loved.
The truth, however, is that the people who made all those changes to the genre were those old-school, "first gen" players who got sick of all those time-wasting and tedious mechanics.
It was the common players of games like EQ that built the "second generation". The evolution of MMOs didn't just happen to the dismay of the majority of the old-school players, but with their support. Obviously, the Pantheon forum is full of masochists who want to spend 5 minutes auto-attacking a trash mob and 30 minutes running to their corpse naked, but the majority spoke and moved on in droves. It was a mass migration, not an exodus of homeless refugees.
Well it more like elite raiders types instead the common players from EQ that built WOW. The first time I heard about WoW was in late 1999 or early 2000( when ever the Hate Plane came out). We had several people in our guild that claimed to be blizzard employees and they said that WoW was going to be EQ with everything that sucked taken out. Its reported that EQ had around 100,000 people playing it in 2000 and reached a peak of a bit over 500.000 in 2003 or so. A lot of the people that left EQ early on, played DAoC (not sure if its considered 1st generation or not). The other first generation games probably had even lower populations. So for WoW to get the millions that played it, a massive new wave of players did have to come in and they did change the future of MMORPGs. Most of them had never played any of the first generation games or even text based MUDs upon which at least EQ was based.
Its interesting to note that EQ is still going after 19 years and they still release expansions fairly often so they must be able to at least pay the bills with ever how many people play it now days. Perhaps Pantheon can do the same.
Well, we already know the verdict of the millions that DID have the chance to experience "first generation", lol
They roundly rejected it and demanded instant travel, no "downtime", cross-server group-finders, insta-port to dungeons and PVP battlegrounds you can just auto-queue for...
There's no reason I can think of why the "newer" generation wouldn't react exactly the same way... and demand a battle-royale mode as well !
People seem to have the misguided concept that some new wave of players came in and just upturned and undid everything they loved.
The truth, however, is that the people who made all those changes to the genre were those old-school, "first gen" players who got sick of all those time-wasting and tedious mechanics.
It was the common players of games like EQ that built the "second generation". The evolution of MMOs didn't just happen to the dismay of the majority of the old-school players, but with their support. Obviously, the Pantheon forum is full of masochists who want to spend 5 minutes auto-attacking a trash mob and 30 minutes running to their corpse naked, but the majority spoke and moved on in droves. It was a mass migration, not an exodus of homeless refugees.
Well it more like elite raiders types instead the common players from EQ that built WOW. The first time I heard about WoW was in late 1999 or early 2000( when ever the Hate Plane came out). We had several people in our guild that claimed to be blizzard employees and they said that WoW was going to be EQ with everything that sucked taken out. Its reported that EQ had around 100,000 people playing it in 2000 and reached a peak of a bit over 500.000 in 2003 or so. A lot of the people that left EQ early on, played DAoC (not sure if its considered 1st generation or not). The other first generation games probably had even lower populations. So for WoW to get the millions that played it, a massive new wave of players did have to come in and they did change the future of MMORPGs. Most of them had never played any of the first generation games or even text based MUDs upon which at least EQ was based.
Its interesting to note that EQ is still going after 19 years and they still release expansions fairly often so they must be able to at least pay the bills with ever how many people play it now days. Perhaps Pantheon can do the same.
We know for a fact that even back then, there were millions of gamers already in the MMORPG genre. SOE admitted it themselves when they made EQ2. They even gave us the estimated numbers of people that tried the original EQ to be well over two million. They tried it and rejected it and that is what led to a more casual friendly, quest oriented, story driven gameplay change that was EQ2. It was their attempt to appeal to those gamers who had tried the original and didn't like it. This doesn't even include the numbers who played and or tried the other first wave games like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot and Anarchy Online.
Blizzard, without a doubt drew in a lot more gamers, but please don't paint the original gaming crowd as a minor bunch of misfits who amount to nothing, we gave birth to this genre and we funded it well enough for companies to want to come in and get a slice of the pie.
Well, we already know the verdict of the millions that DID have the chance to experience "first generation", lol
They roundly rejected it and demanded instant travel, no "downtime", cross-server group-finders, insta-port to dungeons and PVP battlegrounds you can just auto-queue for...
There's no reason I can think of why the "newer" generation wouldn't react exactly the same way... and demand a battle-royale mode as well !
People seem to have the misguided concept that some new wave of players came in and just upturned and undid everything they loved.
The truth, however, is that the people who made all those changes to the genre were those old-school, "first gen" players who got sick of all those time-wasting and tedious mechanics.
It was the common players of games like EQ that built the "second generation". The evolution of MMOs didn't just happen to the dismay of the majority of the old-school players, but with their support. Obviously, the Pantheon forum is full of masochists who want to spend 5 minutes auto-attacking a trash mob and 30 minutes running to their corpse naked, but the majority spoke and moved on in droves. It was a mass migration, not an exodus of homeless refugees.
Well it more like elite raiders types instead the common players from EQ that built WOW. The first time I heard about WoW was in late 1999 or early 2000( when ever the Hate Plane came out). We had several people in our guild that claimed to be blizzard employees and they said that WoW was going to be EQ with everything that sucked taken out. Its reported that EQ had around 100,000 people playing it in 2000 and reached a peak of a bit over 500.000 in 2003 or so. A lot of the people that left EQ early on, played DAoC (not sure if its considered 1st generation or not). The other first generation games probably had even lower populations. So for WoW to get the millions that played it, a massive new wave of players did have to come in and they did change the future of MMORPGs. Most of them had never played any of the first generation games or even text based MUDs upon which at least EQ was based.
Its interesting to note that EQ is still going after 19 years and they still release expansions fairly often so they must be able to at least pay the bills with ever how many people play it now days. Perhaps Pantheon can do the same.
We know for a fact that even back then, there were millions of gamers already in the MMORPG genre. SOE admitted it themselves when they made EQ2. They even gave us the estimated numbers of people that tried the original EQ to be well over two million. They tried it and rejected it and that is what led to a more casual friendly, quest oriented, story driven gameplay change that was EQ2. It was their attempt to appeal to those gamers who had tried the original and didn't like it. This doesn't even include the numbers who played and or tried the other first wave games like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot and Anarchy Online.
Blizzard, without a doubt drew in a lot more gamers, but please don't paint the original gaming crowd as a minor bunch of misfits who amount to nothing, we gave birth to this genre and we funded it well enough for companies to want to come in and get a slice of the pie.
To all 4 posters that participated in this discussion, I think you all make valid points of the historical events that took place many years ago.
Basically what I read here in a nut shell is this: Back many years ago, moving from first generation to second generation, many viewed it as an upgrade where others did not. Some viewed the change casual and liked it, others despised it. People attach numbers to prove rise and declines.
However: All this is past history and would have no baring now. Variables need to be equated with the here and now. Release timing !.... How the public would react and switch games based on the present. People back then seeked "a potential upgrade". But you ALSO had to change to casual to get it.
This is important: Two things happened "simultaneously"... I have to stress this twice, Two things happened not just one. -- An upgrade in technology and smooth game play. -- A new style called casual
Since both happened development of First generation STOPPED.... Sure people wanted tech, smooth and casual. You can't blame most everyone for wanting more polish, smooth and even lore that made sense !
No one ever attempted first generation again, it just STOPPED.
The way I see it !...First Generation can be new all over again. No one hated it, but it simply STOPED.... Give this an upgrade in technology and smooth game play and will have a potential winner !!!!!
First generation never got a face lift, it STOPPED.... Old numbers and player counts have no baring on today, it would be a new equation.
Well, we already know the verdict of the millions that DID have the chance to experience "first generation", lol
They roundly rejected it and demanded instant travel, no "downtime", cross-server group-finders, insta-port to dungeons and PVP battlegrounds you can just auto-queue for...
There's no reason I can think of why the "newer" generation wouldn't react exactly the same way... and demand a battle-royale mode as well !
People seem to have the misguided concept that some new wave of players came in and just upturned and undid everything they loved.
The truth, however, is that the people who made all those changes to the genre were those old-school, "first gen" players who got sick of all those time-wasting and tedious mechanics.
It was the common players of games like EQ that built the "second generation". The evolution of MMOs didn't just happen to the dismay of the majority of the old-school players, but with their support. Obviously, the Pantheon forum is full of masochists who want to spend 5 minutes auto-attacking a trash mob and 30 minutes running to their corpse naked, but the majority spoke and moved on in droves. It was a mass migration, not an exodus of homeless refugees.
Well it more like elite raiders types instead the common players from EQ that built WOW. The first time I heard about WoW was in late 1999 or early 2000( when ever the Hate Plane came out). We had several people in our guild that claimed to be blizzard employees and they said that WoW was going to be EQ with everything that sucked taken out. Its reported that EQ had around 100,000 people playing it in 2000 and reached a peak of a bit over 500.000 in 2003 or so. A lot of the people that left EQ early on, played DAoC (not sure if its considered 1st generation or not). The other first generation games probably had even lower populations. So for WoW to get the millions that played it, a massive new wave of players did have to come in and they did change the future of MMORPGs. Most of them had never played any of the first generation games or even text based MUDs upon which at least EQ was based.
Its interesting to note that EQ is still going after 19 years and they still release expansions fairly often so they must be able to at least pay the bills with ever how many people play it now days. Perhaps Pantheon can do the same.
We know for a fact that even back then, there were millions of gamers already in the MMORPG genre. SOE admitted it themselves when they made EQ2. They even gave us the estimated numbers of people that tried the original EQ to be well over two million. They tried it and rejected it and that is what led to a more casual friendly, quest oriented, story driven gameplay change that was EQ2. It was their attempt to appeal to those gamers who had tried the original and didn't like it. This doesn't even include the numbers who played and or tried the other first wave games like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot and Anarchy Online.
Blizzard, without a doubt drew in a lot more gamers, but please don't paint the original gaming crowd as a minor bunch of misfits who amount to nothing, we gave birth to this genre and we funded it well enough for companies to want to come in and get a slice of the pie.
Since both happened development of First generation STOPPED.... Sure people wanted tech, smooth and casual. You can't blame most everyone for wanting more polish, smooth and even lore that made sense !
No one ever attempted first generation again, it just STOPPED.
The way I see it !...First Generation can be new all over again. No one hated it, but it simply STOPED.... Give this an upgrade in technology and smooth game play and will have a potential winner !!!!!
First generation never got a face lift, it STOPPED.... Old numbers and player counts have no baring on today, it would be a new equation.
The problem is that people don't seem capable of separating the two main features of the early games:
1) Social Interdependence
2) Gameplay mechanics
So, whenever you hear these people wanting throwbacks like Pantheon, you hear people wanting to bring back all the horrible things we all ran away from to start with. This isn't a facelift, it's a carbon copy.
Just read these forums even. People can't separate the two.
If developers could find a nice middle-ground where the gameplay is actually more evolved and "fun" and manage to create an actual economy and social-friendly ecosystem at the same time, they might actually draw a crowd.
In reality, however, they are just bringing back the old, broken gameplay to cater to the nostalgia crowd.
Maybe Pantheon has some grand tricks up its sleeves that will bring it into the modern era(I doubt it, from what we've seen so far). We'll see. ATM, Pantheon largely feels like an EQ emulator server. Which, while great for those nostalgic, will not draw in many newer players.
I think the old mechanic I actually liked the most in EQ was the travel system, primarily the wizard/druid teleporting system. I suppose I'm old-school in the regard that I feel instant fast-travel everywhere at will makes the world feel small and shallow.
I thought having those classes that could teleport made it so that fast travel was somewhat possible, but also created an interesting networking mechanic amongst players. It also contributed to the economy. Since you couldn't just instantly warp to any location, but only specific portal locations, it kept the world from shrinking too much, also.
It was a nice balance... and a nice balance is what's needed to salvage the "good" older mechanics without dredging up the rancid ones that were abandoned for good reason.
All that said, as you've probably seen @blueturtle13 say, EQ actually had many of the worst mechanics of the old-school era. Games like UO and AC had much more interesting and diverse systems while also having the community aspect. Using EQ as a base probably isn't the best foundation to try and build from if we want to evolve first-gen mechanics. EQ was probably the most one-dimensional game(as far as systems go) as there could be.
TBH, if I want to go full hardcore old-gen, then I have to say that Saga of Lucimia sounds far more interesting than Pantheon, to me. Seems Pantheon wants to force you into the straight-up "grind" mentality like EQ, whereas SoL wants to make a game that's "hard" or challenging.
Well, we already know the verdict of the millions that DID have the chance to experience "first generation", lol
They roundly rejected it and demanded instant travel, no "downtime", cross-server group-finders, insta-port to dungeons and PVP battlegrounds you can just auto-queue for...
There's no reason I can think of why the "newer" generation wouldn't react exactly the same way... and demand a battle-royale mode as well !
People seem to have the misguided concept that some new wave of players came in and just upturned and undid everything they loved.
The truth, however, is that the people who made all those changes to the genre were those old-school, "first gen" players who got sick of all those time-wasting and tedious mechanics.
It was the common players of games like EQ that built the "second generation". The evolution of MMOs didn't just happen to the dismay of the majority of the old-school players, but with their support. Obviously, the Pantheon forum is full of masochists who want to spend 5 minutes auto-attacking a trash mob and 30 minutes running to their corpse naked, but the majority spoke and moved on in droves. It was a mass migration, not an exodus of homeless refugees.
Well it more like elite raiders types instead the common players from EQ that built WOW. The first time I heard about WoW was in late 1999 or early 2000( when ever the Hate Plane came out). We had several people in our guild that claimed to be blizzard employees and they said that WoW was going to be EQ with everything that sucked taken out. Its reported that EQ had around 100,000 people playing it in 2000 and reached a peak of a bit over 500.000 in 2003 or so. A lot of the people that left EQ early on, played DAoC (not sure if its considered 1st generation or not). The other first generation games probably had even lower populations. So for WoW to get the millions that played it, a massive new wave of players did have to come in and they did change the future of MMORPGs. Most of them had never played any of the first generation games or even text based MUDs upon which at least EQ was based.
Its interesting to note that EQ is still going after 19 years and they still release expansions fairly often so they must be able to at least pay the bills with ever how many people play it now days. Perhaps Pantheon can do the same.
We know for a fact that even back then, there were millions of gamers already in the MMORPG genre. SOE admitted it themselves when they made EQ2. They even gave us the estimated numbers of people that tried the original EQ to be well over two million. They tried it and rejected it and that is what led to a more casual friendly, quest oriented, story driven gameplay change that was EQ2. It was their attempt to appeal to those gamers who had tried the original and didn't like it. This doesn't even include the numbers who played and or tried the other first wave games like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot and Anarchy Online.
Blizzard, without a doubt drew in a lot more gamers, but please don't paint the original gaming crowd as a minor bunch of misfits who amount to nothing, we gave birth to this genre and we funded it well enough for companies to want to come in and get a slice of the pie.
Not sure where you got the "please don't paint the original gaming crowd as a minor bunch of misfits who amount to nothing" from my post if that is what you are addressing. Of course well over two million (probably more) purchased the early EQ and tried it. A lot did like me and started with Diablo 1 and then went this path: UO -- EQ --- DAoC --- EQ2 (well some went to WoW instead of EQ2). BTW: I did play Asheron's Call and Anarchy online also.
WoW was started long before EQ reached its peak. I think its goal was to fix the things they didn't like in EQ and make it appeal to a larger market including the warcraft RTS fans. It certainly worked for them. EQ2 was reportedly made in response to WoW and it was rushed to release before WoW .
I played UO and AC and saw little of the community in either of them myself. Not like in EQ or DAoC. I think what most people want to get away from is the theme park style quest hub driven MMORPGs that actually encourage the solo play style over group play. To encourage group style play you need classes with certain roles which EQ certainly did. I would like to see them do something like LOTRO did with its runekeeper. Have classes not be able to totally change their role but be able to modify it somewhat before going adventuring. Like for example the group already has a healer and they don't need another. So you readjust before going adventuring to make your character do more DPS (but not as much as a primary DPS class) and also be able to do some minor backup healing. If at least some of the classes are able to fill more than one role then the problem of having to find a certain class for the group will be a lot less. Of course you should be able to only do this in a town and not during combat or after starting adventuring somewhere. In other words not on the fly
The problem is that people don't seem capable of separating the two main features of the early games:
1) Social Interdependence
2) Gameplay mechanics
So, whenever you hear these people wanting throwbacks like Pantheon, you hear people wanting to bring back all the horrible things we all ran away from to start with. This isn't a facelift, it's a carbon copy.
Just read these forums even. People can't separate the two.
If developers could find a nice middle-ground where the gameplay is actually more evolved and "fun" and manage to create an actual economy and social-friendly ecosystem at the same time, they might actually draw a crowd.
In reality, however, they are just bringing back the old, broken gameplay to cater to the nostalgia crowd.
Maybe Pantheon has some grand tricks up its sleeves that will bring it into the modern era(I doubt it, from what we've seen so far). We'll see. ATM, Pantheon largely feels like an EQ emulator server. Which, while great for those nostalgic, will not draw in many newer players.
I think the old mechanic I actually liked the most in EQ was the travel system, primarily the wizard/druid teleporting system. I suppose I'm old-school in the regard that I feel instant fast-travel everywhere at will makes the world feel small and shallow.
I thought having those classes that could teleport made it so that fast travel was somewhat possible, but also created an interesting networking mechanic amongst players. It also contributed to the economy. Since you couldn't just instantly warp to any location, but only specific portal locations, it kept the world from shrinking too much, also.
It was a nice balance... and a nice balance is what's needed to salvage the "good" older mechanics without dredging up the rancid ones that were abandoned for good reason.
All that said, as you've probably seen @blueturtle13 say, EQ actually had many of the worst mechanics of the old-school era. Games like UO and AC had much more interesting and diverse systems while also having the community aspect. Using EQ as a base probably isn't the best foundation to try and build from if we want to evolve first-gen mechanics. EQ was probably the most one-dimensional game(as far as systems go) as there could be.
TBH, if I want to go full hardcore old-gen, then I have to say that Saga of Lucimia sounds far more interesting than Pantheon, to me. Seems Pantheon wants to force you into the straight-up "grind" mentality like EQ, whereas SoL wants to make a game that's "hard" or challenging.
The 'good older mechanics' never disappeared. Almost every new game has them to some degree, maybe not in the same configuration that EQ1 provided. Tanking, healing and dps are still the most important mechanics, although some games went a bit heavy into AE instead of single target effects. But even EQ1 had a selection of AE mechanics.
What has changed was the 'not-quite-as-good older mechanics'. Many of the features evolved into modern equivalents, while some were discarded. Locked doors, begging and other pointless systems have been discarded by almost every game.
Pantheon is planning to resurrect the long, draining grind. I agree that many modern games are simply to easy, with mobs standing no real chance against a player. But the grind, requiring multiple players for multiple minutes to fight a single fight, is unlikely to attract new customers. The big problem that I see in the Pantheon videos is reverting many systems back to EQ1 standards, essentially discarding all changes that have been made over the past 20 years.
I can imagine a substantial portion of those that try Pantheon being turned off by the old, slow mechanics of an age gone by. A game requiring a massive attention span and brings up feelings of deja vu isn't likely to appeal to new customers. There's a real danger that VR may succeed in duplicating EQ1 only to find the modern marketplace isn't interested.
----------
For the record, I prefer a multi-tier travel system. Walking is the most basic, but might take hours to get to a specific destination. A fast travel system, similar to the DAoC horse routes, could cut this time to 20-30 minutes at a cost. Or portals, either player spells or static places in the environment could transfer a character to fixed locations around the globe.
----------
In response to @delete5230's comment about 'first gen MMOs stopped'. They never stopped. They evolved.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The problem is that people don't seem capable of separating the two main features of the early games:
1) Social Interdependence
2) Gameplay mechanics
So, whenever you hear these people wanting throwbacks like Pantheon, you hear people wanting to bring back all the horrible things we all ran away from to start with. This isn't a facelift, it's a carbon copy.
Just read these forums even. People can't separate the two.
If developers could find a nice middle-ground where the gameplay is actually more evolved and "fun" and manage to create an actual economy and social-friendly ecosystem at the same time, they might actually draw a crowd.
In reality, however, they are just bringing back the old, broken gameplay to cater to the nostalgia crowd.
Maybe Pantheon has some grand tricks up its sleeves that will bring it into the modern era(I doubt it, from what we've seen so far). We'll see. ATM, Pantheon largely feels like an EQ emulator server. Which, while great for those nostalgic, will not draw in many newer players.
I think the old mechanic I actually liked the most in EQ was the travel system, primarily the wizard/druid teleporting system. I suppose I'm old-school in the regard that I feel instant fast-travel everywhere at will makes the world feel small and shallow.
I thought having those classes that could teleport made it so that fast travel was somewhat possible, but also created an interesting networking mechanic amongst players. It also contributed to the economy. Since you couldn't just instantly warp to any location, but only specific portal locations, it kept the world from shrinking too much, also.
It was a nice balance... and a nice balance is what's needed to salvage the "good" older mechanics without dredging up the rancid ones that were abandoned for good reason.
All that said, as you've probably seen @blueturtle13 say, EQ actually had many of the worst mechanics of the old-school era. Games like UO and AC had much more interesting and diverse systems while also having the community aspect. Using EQ as a base probably isn't the best foundation to try and build from if we want to evolve first-gen mechanics. EQ was probably the most one-dimensional game(as far as systems go) as there could be.
TBH, if I want to go full hardcore old-gen, then I have to say that Saga of Lucimia sounds far more interesting than Pantheon, to me. Seems Pantheon wants to force you into the straight-up "grind" mentality like EQ, whereas SoL wants to make a game that's "hard" or challenging.
The 'good older mechanics' never disappeared. Almost every new game has them to some degree, maybe not in the same configuration that EQ1 provided. Tanking, healing and dps are still the most important mechanics, although some games went a bit heavy into AE instead of single target effects. But even EQ1 had a selection of AE mechanics.
What has changed was the 'not-quite-as-good older mechanics'. Many of the features evolved into modern equivalents, while some were discarded. Locked doors, begging and other pointless systems have been discarded by almost every game.
Pantheon is planning to resurrect the long, draining grind. I agree that many modern games are simply to easy, with mobs standing no real chance against a player. But the grind, requiring multiple players for multiple minutes to fight a single fight, is unlikely to attract new customers. The big problem that I see in the Pantheon videos is reverting many systems back to EQ1 standards, essentially discarding all changes that have been made over the past 20 years.
I can imagine a substantial portion of those that try Pantheon being turned off by the old, slow mechanics of an age gone by. A game requiring a massive attention span and brings up feelings of deja vu isn't likely to appeal to new customers. There's a real danger that VR may succeed in duplicating EQ1 only to find the modern marketplace isn't interested.
----------
For the record, I prefer a multi-tier travel system. Walking is the most basic, but might take hours to get to a specific destination. A fast travel system, similar to the DAoC horse routes, could cut this time to 20-30 minutes at a cost. Or portals, either player spells or static places in the environment could transfer a character to fixed locations around the globe.
----------
In response to @delete5230's comment about 'first gen MMOs stopped'. They never stopped. They evolved.
I guess I don't get where its more of a grind fighting one mob with say a 1000x hp which takes some strategy and a few minutes to kill verses killing 1000 mobs with 1x hp that you just AE through. If I want that I go play a diablo type game. I guess it does take more of an attention span in the longer battle as opposed to just spamming your AE skills. I enjoyed the longer battles in EQ, you had time to communicate with your group, joke around, ect. You are not constantly running all the time from one group of mobs to AE to the next. To me that is much more of a grind.
I did go look at the Saga of Lucimia website. Looks like they are real early in development. The classless system has its pluses and but I didn't see any examples of combat (maybe I missed them). I guess they will have some way for you to determine what a characters masteries are so that you know this guy is really a healer and not pretending to be one. I did find a stream from there alpha 4 and it looked like a bunch of people beating on one mob for a while. Didn't look much different than Pantheon other than the graphics were not as good. They do seem to have a bard so thats a plus.
Comments
A better comparison is to look at which MMOs (e.g. FFXIV, ESO, GW2), 'old school' RPGs (e.g. Divinity, Pillars) and 'low budget' games (<insert indie games here>) have done well in recent years and what they all have in common, and that is (generally) good gameplay, enough content for what they are, being a quality product, being at least somewhat known, and not releasing into an overcrowded market.
Now of course none of this means that Pantheon will succeed, but (from what I have seen so far) there aren't any 'red flags' that it won't.
* It will be interesting to see how this 'next generation' of 'old school' MMOs do overall, and once we see the launch of the likes of WoW Classic, Pantheon, CU, Ashes, etc. we will have a much better idea of how feasible their design philosophies are in the current market... though ironically, with so many of them launching (or at least going into beta) over the next few years I wouldn't be surprised to see some of them 'fail' due to (if nothing else) market saturation.
People are truly starving for an mmorpg. I seriously think many that have no intentions will at least give it a go for lack of mmo's…… I seriously think many will get hooked.
My definition of any type of game is a challenge ! ...…..This means you may loose. I would say this holds true for hundreds of years, then games like BDO comes along and changes the rules ?
It's like this:
-I don't want to play a game like Pantheon.
-well, a lot of people are playing it.
-I've seen a post last night where this guy found an awesome group and had a lot of fun.
-Well I'm sick of ESO...What the hell, I'll try it.
(4 hours later)
-I can't seem to get anything done, maybe I'll ask that guy for some help.
-Hay, we did good, this is kind of fun, and he asked me to join his Guild.
-My friend wants me to play again tomorrow, Ya know what?... I love it.
People tend to think it's an absolute when others say they will never play... I say the opposite.
I'm far too jaded to believe such will happen, at least not to me.
I'm not looking to make friends in a game these days..looks like @nariusseldon finally won me over.
Damn.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Got married last year. Were older, so we slapped together a super easy and cheap wedding, reception was in among customers at her daughter's restraint. Friends say it was the best wedding ever attended
When games like Warhammer Online and Rift came out with their dynamic events, I really thought the genre had a chance to really shine, but then they invented free to play and discovered the twitchy console crowd and everything changed for the worse for gamers like me and it would appear it has not exactly been healthy for the genre in the long term.
He gets it, he really REALLY GETS IT.
There needs to be some demand for it, for any company to take a dive in, to such a long process of creating such a game.
I remember playing Everquest from 1999 till about the time WoW came out; and the industry had a lot of buzz. WoW became so big, then people viewed it as the "standard" for mmorpg game design, because of its success, without realizing that there is success in creating a game with more depth and permanence.
I see a growing demand for a game like Pantheon, more so every day. I also so not believe that a game necessarily needs to have the huge subscription numbers, that WoW did, to be successful.
I am not going to pretend, that an in-depth experience appeals to the masses, but it does appeal to a larger audience, than many are willing to admit.
These aspects of Everquest and Pantheon that people claim they hate, or have grown out of; are apart of our human psychology. We want deeper connections with other human beings, rewards that are actual achievements and a world that feels alive for adventure and exploration.
Its all about putting the pieces together right, for some form of real success.
Its easier to just mindlessly zone out, to easily digestible modern mmorpgs, but for the select few that want a deeper experience, its worth it to make a game like Pantheon.
(Akiraosc)
Yeah, right.
Faith is a wonderful thing. You are claiming to see a "growing demand" for a game like Pantheon, care to share some hard data to substantiate your beliefs?
If you were to make a similar claim about Star Citizen you would have solid evidence of such demand, Pantheon isn't exactly kicking arse and taking names when it comes to crowdfunding, nor showing any sort of innovation in game play which might indicate future success.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
They roundly rejected it and demanded instant travel, no "downtime", cross-server group-finders, insta-port to dungeons and PVP battlegrounds you can just auto-queue for...
There's no reason I can think of why the "newer" generation wouldn't react exactly the same way... and demand a battle-royale mode as well !
I can't speak to those experiences, but I can speak on how much I loved WoTLK over any WoW expacs that came after....ha
We appreciate new experiences more and have a deeper love of the things that we learned from I guess.
I plan on playing Pantheon with a group of friends, but if it's too hard for us to meet up in game I prbly won't stick around too long if we have to group up. I don't like grouping with strangers..... It took years to find the peeps who can put up with me for the group I do have.
What, me worry?
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Personally, I avoided the first generation games: Watched my friends play them and felt the problems overrode the enjoyment. Kept my nose clean til CoH came out, and fell to grace there.
Not going to be particularly interested personally in old school games that deify the shortcomings of the past. Camping, ganking, greifing, forced idle time, poor character design, bad writing, etc But hey, if the devs can match their money needs with the fanbase support that they can get, then it's good.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Its reported that EQ had around 100,000 people playing it in 2000 and reached a peak of a bit over 500.000 in 2003 or so. A lot of the people that left EQ early on, played DAoC (not sure if its considered 1st generation or not). The other first generation games probably had even lower populations.
So for WoW to get the millions that played it, a massive new wave of players did have to come in and they did change the future of MMORPGs. Most of them had never played any of the first generation games or even text based MUDs upon which at least EQ was based.
Its interesting to note that EQ is still going after 19 years and they still release expansions fairly often so they must be able to at least pay the bills with ever how many people play it now days.
Perhaps Pantheon can do the same.
Blizzard, without a doubt drew in a lot more gamers, but please don't paint the original gaming crowd as a minor bunch of misfits who amount to nothing, we gave birth to this genre and we funded it well enough for companies to want to come in and get a slice of the pie.
Basically what I read here in a nut shell is this:
Back many years ago, moving from first generation to second generation, many viewed it as an upgrade where others did not. Some viewed the change casual and liked it, others despised it. People attach numbers to prove rise and declines.
However:
All this is past history and would have no baring now. Variables need to be equated with the here and now. Release timing !.... How the public would react and switch games based on the present. People back then seeked "a potential upgrade". But you ALSO had to change to casual to get it.
This is important:
Two things happened "simultaneously"... I have to stress this twice, Two things happened not just one.
-- An upgrade in technology and smooth game play.
-- A new style called casual
Since both happened development of First generation STOPPED.... Sure people wanted tech, smooth and casual. You can't blame most everyone for wanting more polish, smooth and even lore that made sense !
No one ever attempted first generation again, it just STOPPED.
The way I see it !...First Generation can be new all over again. No one hated it, but it simply STOPED.... Give this an upgrade in technology and smooth game play and will have a potential winner !!!!!
First generation never got a face lift, it STOPPED.... Old numbers and player counts have no baring on today, it would be a new equation.
WoW was started long before EQ reached its peak. I think its goal was to fix the things they didn't like in EQ and make it appeal to a larger market including the warcraft RTS fans. It certainly worked for them. EQ2 was reportedly made in response to WoW and it was rushed to release before WoW .
I think what most people want to get away from is the theme park style quest hub driven MMORPGs that actually encourage the solo play style over group play. To encourage group style play you need classes with certain roles which EQ certainly did.
I would like to see them do something like LOTRO did with its runekeeper. Have classes not be able to totally change their role but be able to modify it somewhat before going adventuring. Like for example the group already has a healer and they don't need another. So you readjust before going adventuring to make your character do more DPS (but not as much as a primary DPS class) and also be able to do some minor backup healing. If at least some of the classes are able to fill more than one role then the problem of having to find a certain class for the group will be a lot less. Of course you should be able to only do this in a town and not during combat or after starting adventuring somewhere. In other words not on the fly
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I did go look at the Saga of Lucimia website. Looks like they are real early in development. The classless system has its pluses and but I didn't see any examples of combat (maybe I missed them). I guess they will have some way for you to determine what a characters masteries are so that you know this guy is really a healer and not pretending to be one. I did find a stream from there alpha 4 and it looked like a bunch of people beating on one mob for a while. Didn't look much different than Pantheon other than the graphics were not as good. They do seem to have a bard so thats a plus.