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Make MMos great again! What would you do?
AngryBeaver
Member UncommonPosts: 46
So I was hoping to get some input from one of my favorite sites communities. We have seen many MMos come and go and for the most part been left feeling empty no matter what 100+ million budget games launch. I personally started in UO and still enjoy going back and playing that more than any other game thus far. Personally for me, Initially I enjoyed the quest in WOW, but then it became the standard and now our games are just about follow directions and get a prize. I don't personally like being told what to do.
So I what I'm asking is:
What's Missing that would make you excited about a game?
What do you feel MMos need to remain popular in the future and give players a sense of accomplishment?
Where did they go wrong Post WOW?
If you had 100 Million to spend on a video game being developed, What would you do that is different?
Please take this seriously and participate and you could get you wish.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Beaver
So I what I'm asking is:
What's Missing that would make you excited about a game?
What do you feel MMos need to remain popular in the future and give players a sense of accomplishment?
Where did they go wrong Post WOW?
If you had 100 Million to spend on a video game being developed, What would you do that is different?
Please take this seriously and participate and you could get you wish.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Beaver
Comments
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
1 Community and freedom with balance between risk and reward
it was all mostly fresh and everything was an exciting discovery.
there is no way to recapture that as we ourselves have changed. we are no longer fresh eyed clueless virgins, but seasoned critics that have seen and done it all before. our expectations are simply way too high.
the only thing that at this point might spark my interest again would be a truly massive, single server mmo (think EvE single server) but with terraforming and gamplay similar to minecraft. better graphics would be nice of course. the closes that comes to this would be Boundless....just not so cartoony. every world completely terraformable, every inch manipulable.
im done with quests and hand holding. i want a game that gives you tools which are easy to pick up but hard to master, sets harsh rulers to survive, and lets you create whatever you will.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Kill everything and everyone off and let the evolved roaches resurrect MMORPGs in a few million years.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't believe the nostalgia thing at all....mmorpgs suck now, were much better back then. You would think they would have gotten better instead their smaller simple and made to screw people. Infact their not even mmorpgs.
At first I was like wow, that's extreme… But then it would bring down bloated cost and get rid of the money hungry scum.
currently lighting a candle in church every week
and praying Brad McQuaid will succeed in his mission
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Developers are NOT in this to make their passionate game,they make what sells and if they can make it fast and with little effort all the better.
When stop and think/look i realize why the best IP's are such.PASSIONATE game designs and not just to make a buck....the EQ franchise and my fave the FF franchise.
Then we can clearly see what happens when devs start to cut corners and rush games out,we see the business side,sloppy mediocre games.
So i guess we will see the next really good game,NO not some giant game full of meaningless quests and raid dungeons,i mean a really good game.We will see it because it will be a big enough developer with money and manpower and be a passionate design by the producer.Sadly most producers are just hired to be baby sitters,the design is already decided and employees get to work at break neck speeds and long hours.
Sadly i see potential in the FFXI mobile but yeah it is mobile and cash shop.I figured potential in Tanaka after hearing he wanted to make one final mmorpg that was NOT about making money,he works for GungHO entertainment.Sadly he got real sick,apparently his life was in danger,so i am not sure if he will ever make that passionate game again.Do i see any others incoming,nope notta one.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
A dull (imho) game like Lineage 2 had a cult following because it was so hard to get to the next level, so hard to beat a boss, it felt like you won the superbowl when you finally achieved those things. But that hardship scared many gamers away.
In contrast, today's WoW let you do anything. You can heal even if your class is warrior, you can aggro ten mobs and beat them all, and the only thing stopping you from achieveing anything is the time you have to play the game. That makes it unfulfilling, boring, but accessible to anyone.
Classic WoW had such success because it was the perfect balance of difficulty and accessibility. It was considered a light MMO compared to UO, DaoC and others, but it also made you work and know your class if you wanted to accomplish anything, enough to be a challenge.
I'm playing a survival game right now where a person is petitioning the developer to make it so when people die they don't lose their stuff. This is in a game labeled 'survival' - in the genre 'survival'.
We desperately need developers who aren't afraid to clearly describe their vision to the community (crucial first step) and then defend it to the death against those that try to change it. Too many games drift along with no real direction and the kneejerk responses to the community usually make it worse.
Be unapologetic (See: Dark Souls) - Don't be afraid to make something challenging and great and don't be afraid to tell half the gaming public to take a hike.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Also good and advanced graphics is a +, ESO for example use very outdated armor graphics compared to modern games, With just painted on armor.
Many games lack good itemization. I just don't understand how you can release a game and not have loot in dungeons. Sure there's a random blue drop from the last boss. But nothing like the great loot in WoW or older mmorpgs.
Few games these days have exploring outside quests, almost the entire zone is occupied by quests, there's hardly a rock in there that's not part of a quest. What happend to explore and find stuff by random chance somewhere?
Truth is I love MMO's, I enjoy playing them, sadly, many are stale and often fall short of a really good place to play.
With that said, I think the future of MMO sits in, no so much a new direction, but a return to what really excelled in them to start with.
1: Social/Open World Content.
This seems to be something that modern MMO's are lacking, that ability to gather together and do something, or just interact with other people as they play, and take part in the game with them.
Let me give you a great example of this, when Kunark came out, I was playing a lowbe Iksar with my friend and we were in the starting areas, and this high level human fighter was running around naked, and every time we would go to kill a mob he would run up to it and kick or trip it, and then run away. After a few times we sent him a tell asking what gives. He explained that he was just there for the faction, and didn't want to KS anyone, so he was giving a non-lethal hit (Trip) as others got the exp and rewards.
Later in GW2, I see this same kind of ability to just engage together without formality brought to a new height with dynamic events and world bosses, and it really was that evolution of what Open World was supposed to be like, where players not only could just gather together improv style, they were rewarded and encouraged to do so.
This builds a world that players want to be with other players, and that is really a cornerstone of MMO world building. Not that players have to be together in groups to do anything, but it is simply to their advantage to help each other out, and be around each other.
That was really a great part of MMO's of the past. When we would run trains to the zone, and people would raise and buff each other as we recovered. There was a sense that we were all together here, not private little bands, doing our own thing, wanting to be away from each other, but just the opposite, we want that other person to be there with us, not in my group, not that I need to talk with them, or anything, but, that we can and might help each other out if needed.
See, in GW2, the World Bosses where the evolution of the Dragons of EQ for me, these massive events that gathered many people to them, just done better, more social, more inclusive to all the people that showed up. The ideal progression of what MMO's started with and where they should have been today.
Sadly, very few MMO's really work this venture, but this is really the glue that holds a Multi-player game together. That feeling of other people being around you is a good thing.
So with that said,
My Ideal game would have Open World Content Like GW2.
2: Instance Based Content.
Call them Dungeons, Call them Raids, call them whatever you like. Group Content is a modern Cornerstone of the MMO landscape. I first really came into them with CoH, but, they didn't really shine till I played DDO.
DDO, was in many ways really the bar by which I set all other instance content, and, I have got to say, every other game I have played has come up lacking.
DDO, built a system where not only could you chose the difficulty of a Dungeon (Easy/Normal/Hard/Elite), the dungeon itself would scale according to how many players you had in the group. IE: a Party of 5 people enter a Hard dungeon are going to face more mobs with more HP and get more Loot, than a party of 2 people going through the same dungeon on the same setting. But since they have more people in their group, the overall difficulty remains about the same for both parties.
That was the perfect system.
Also in DDO, soloing was very doable, so people who grouped often did so because they wanted to group, not because they had to group. This set the stage perfectly for the groups that were listed to be listed by the people who in fact wanted to group with other people.
IMHO, Nothing builds a more bitter situation then players being forced to group, because simply put, it is not what they want to do. But, if grouping for this content is purely voluntary, then those that want to solo, can go off and solo, and those that want to group, and go off and group, and the two never have to meet, which is best for the game overall.
With that Said:
My Ideal Game has Instance Based Dungeons like DDO.
(To be Continued)
You see, being excluded works in my favor because then I don't end up spending money or time on a game where the developer pivots from a premium title into a FTP/Pay To Win abomination.
What I abhor is a game that is hardmode from the start but not making that fact clear. The developer then goes out, attracting an entire continent of easy-moders. After about a year the developer has to capitulate to the 'majority' who didn't read up on the game before purchase. I'm tired of having great games ruined right underneath me.
So the problem isn't me being excluded from a game - oh please, if you're making a piece of shit let me know upfront - but rather, being dupped into a vision that the developer quickly abandons because it attracted a huge player base of people who don't understand the product.
It would be like Battlefield 5 attracting a huge player base of people who want to craft and who spend all their time complaining about getting shot. So the Battlefield 5 developers add a bunch of safe zones and a crafting system - it is that bad out there.
My Ideal MMOL Make MMO's Great Again (MMGA)
3: Social Groups/Guilds/Adventure Groups/Channels.
There is no surprise that my top 3 aspects of an MMO are about players interacting with other players, because to me, that is the cornerstone of what makes an MMO great to start with, the other players around you.
Everything from the Pugs, to the guild mates, to the social channels, these are what keep players connected, and it is that connection that builds the game for them, this is really what keeps players coming back.
3 A: Chat.
Chat comes in many ways, Zone Wide, Game Wide, some games offer OOC chat channels, some games offer all various kinds of channels and systems, with their own colors, so players can at a glance see what is going on around them. Others, not so much.
In this venture it's hard to say what is ideal, but there are a few stand outs that were just bad. Like for example, in BDO, the chat was small, and then there was this giant spam that would fly across the screen when someone opened a dragon egg or something. I hated that with a passion. Drove me nuts, and before I got around to playing the game, I was trying to make my chat bar bigger and turn that spam off.
On the flip side of this Trove, had global announcements for the same kind of thing, where players would get the uber rare reward, that was not anywhere near as imposing.
A lot of games also provide means to turn on and off which chats you want to read. This is a good system. Some games had chat channels that were off by default, but there if you wanted them. Like I think it was Black Gold, that had Marketplace Chat, and a few other chat channels off by default, but you could turn them on, once you felt the urge to get involved in that.
This is important, to have established channels in the game for specific thins. Like have a Marketplace/Trade channel, have a Crafters Channel, have a Role Play channel pre-set into the game for players that want that.
Also swapping between channels should be easy, simple, and fast, a lot of games I have played are decent, GW2, Trove, DDO to name a few.
So a game needs to have a good clear means to communicate with other players.
I really think a developer should not try to appease everyone or put in content for everyone, find a group and stick with it, and build the best game for them. If other people play it, so be it, but the game is not for them in mind.
If they want raids, or this "Oh I need hardmode content" or "I want Hardcore Challenge" piss off and go find some other game to play.
All too often I see some really great games get killed because of the crybabies that always want some kind of "Hardmode" game play.. just kills the whole feel of the game, then they need to go all F2P, as their casuals are like Screw this, and move on, and then the Hardcore players cry that their game now has P2W and F2P.. well it was all your fault.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
While dealing with venture capitalist over the past few weeks The idea came to me to possibly offer a kickstarter with shares to the investors in release profits based on total investment. 51 % owned by the developer and 49% to the players.. Not sure the legality of this just yet but I have an SEC attorney working on it. Is this something you think the community would be interested in? Maybe some ownership in a community driven games versus a silly cloak, mount and a week early access? Thoughts?
If they are out to make a hardcore game, if this is supposed to be a brutal survival, full loot, open pvp, make you cry like a baby type of game, they need to stick to their guns on that.
In fact, it is better to build that core of players that love what you have and focus on making the best game for them, as that core can grow, they will talk about your game, it will get a reputation, and while it may take years to pick up, or it may just amble along, it will be respected if you stick to a vision, to stay with a ideal, and focus on making the best game you can for your target demographic, because that is where the goal lies.
Case in Point. EvE. Is a very distinct demographic, this game is not for everyone, and the developers like it like that. They are not chasing money, they are focusing on their demographic and making the best game they can for the kind of people that would like their game. That is why, while EvE never took off like EQ or WoW, it still carries on, and is to date, one of the oldest MMO that still holds a Sub System.
I sincerely wish other MMO developers had the brass to do the same. They have a vision, and stick with it.
To give an example, DDO, when it was made was a near perfect adaptation of 3.5 DnD rules to an MMO. They went F2P in 2009 pulled in some good money and their numbers skyrocketed, they got all starry eyed and opted to try and be more like everyone else to placate(retain?) their new arrivals, so as opposed to being the best game they could be for their target market, they tried to be, yet another every game. Turbine has since dropped DDO and fired/laid off all the developers and now Daybreak Games publishes DDO with a different developer.
So, I think really, the best thing an MMO can do as far as their development goes, is focus on a market, not try to be a WoW killer, but to find their own piece of that pie, and enjoy the hell out of it. Yes, that means telling some loud whiny gamers to piss off, and doing so for many years straight till they get the hint.
And it does not matter if the game is hardcore, moderate, or casual, they need to find that group that wants to play their game.
See, let me give you an example, I am casual slob in a lot of the MMO's I play, but, at the same time, I am brutal wrecking ball when it comes to Eternal Crusade, often scoring commendations in every battle I am in.
So, I don't think "Casual" or "Hardcore" is a market. However, "Survival" is, "Fun First" is.. just saying.